View Full Version : greatest light weight!


Dempsey 1919
01-09-2006, 12:46 PM
who was the greatest light weight ever?

machotime
01-09-2006, 12:52 PM
Easy question! Roberto Duran!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yogi
01-09-2006, 12:54 PM
Benny Leonard #1

Oasis_Lad
01-09-2006, 12:58 PM
i gotta say duran on this one

machotime
01-09-2006, 01:04 PM
Benny Leonard #1
What is your justification? Did you ever see him fight, is there even any film of this guy?

Dempsey1238
01-09-2006, 01:51 PM
of couse there is film on Benny, I have him number 2, right behind Joe Gans.

Benny has film fights of Jimmy McClarnin, and Lew Tendler.

And Lenord ALso have beating like 8 or so HOFer's or near Hofer's.

Yogi
01-09-2006, 01:53 PM
What is your justification? Did you ever see him fight, is there even any film of this guy?

Yeah, there is some film of Benny Leonard...not much, but there's some footage from his fights with Lew Tendler in his prime (as well vs. McLarnin when Benny was well past it), and he looks excellant with the tremendous footwork that he shows, as well as other outside skills (great& fast jab, straight rights, and combos).

My justification?

Amongst other things (like dominating a deeper division, etc), Ray Arcel's opinion must hold some weight...You know that guy who was a longtime trainer for Duran, don't you? Yeah, I'm sure you do...Anyways, he called Benny Leonard not only the greatest Lightweight of all-time, but also said this in 1991, "People ask me who's the greatest fighter I ever saw. I hesitate to say, either Benny Leonard or Ray Robinson."

Now why should I disagree with Duran's own trainer from his Lightweight reign?

M26
01-09-2006, 01:54 PM
Roberto Duran

Yogi
01-09-2006, 02:20 PM
of couse there is film on Benny, I have him number 2, right behind Joe Gans.

You sound like you have a list already made up, Greek...Care to share it?

Mine would look something like this, I think;

1. Benny leonard
2. Joe Gans
3. Roberto Duran
4. Henry Armstrong
5. Ike Williams
6. Tony Canzoneri
7. Carlos Ortiz
8. Pernell Whitaker
9. Jack Blackburn
10. Barney Ross

Something like that, with consideration also given to the likes of Joe Brown, Lou Ambers, Freddie Welsh, and Jack McAuliffe. If considering 130 pound accomplishments, Arguello would have a spot somewhere around the 8th spot for me, as well.

Rough & quick list, although my top seven are just about the way I'd always see it...Unless I learn something new, that is.

Dempsey1238
01-09-2006, 02:28 PM
why not

1 Joe Gans(I have 2 fights with him, I pretty amazing with him)
2 Benny Learod.
3 Roberto Duran
4 Ike Williams
5 Joe Brown
6 Barney Ross
7 Tony Canzoneri
8 Battling Nelson
9 Jack McAuliffe
10 Henry Armstrong Top ten of couse, but he did not relly do that much in the lightweights imo.

Yogi
01-09-2006, 03:34 PM
why not

1 Joe Gans(I have 2 fights with him, I pretty amazing with him)
2 Benny Learod.
3 Roberto Duran
4 Ike Williams
5 Joe Brown
6 Barney Ross
7 Tony Canzoneri
8 Battling Nelson
9 Jack McAuliffe
10 Henry Armstrong Top ten of couse, but he did not relly do that much in the lightweights imo.

I like it!

And I especially like the fact that you've included McAuliffe in there, as I think it's unfortunate that he doesn't get nearly the amount of credit he used to back in the first half of the century (or last century now). Nowadays people seem to focus more on the controversy surrounding a couple of his fights as a way of discrediting him and a high ranking in this division, but for a number of years after he retired, the guy was one of the main benchmarks for other great Lightweight to be compared against...He'd make my top fifteen, for sure, and likely makes my top dozen.

Battling Nelson is another guy who's often left off such lists, but the tough-as-hell Dane is another guy who should be remembered as one of the legends of the Lightweight division...He'd make my top twenty, for sure, and possibly top fifteen. Would most likely be my choice as the toughest Lightweight of all-time, as well.

And I tend to give the Lightweight version of Armstrong credit for what he did during the first part of his Welterweight reign, when he routinely weighed under the Lightweight limit (concievably, I don't rank him as high as others do at Welterweight). I have a tendency to do that for other fighters/divisions, as well, like when Terry McGovern defeated George Dixon for the Featherweight title while both of them weighed in under the modern Bantamweight limit, which propels McGovern right near the very top of a list of who I think the greatest Bantamweights in history are/were (Dixon also gets the same credit for a number of his title defenses while weighing under 118).

Anyways...Good stuff, Greek!

Dempsey 1919
01-09-2006, 03:42 PM
no contest, by far, joe gans!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/54/JoeGans.jpg/180px-JoeGans.jpg

Dempsey1238
01-09-2006, 04:12 PM
I have footage of Jack McAuliffe sparing with Dempsey and Carpntera.

I was impress with him for a work out that is. They never relly went at it, I am pretty sure Dempsey would crush a 40 something year old McAuliffe in 1 round. they were playing around. BUT you can see his style. He was not a slugger, but a boxer, on his toes, working behind the jab. Sort of like Tommy Burns if one puts it.

And Tommy Burns was a GREAT fighter, on a pound for pound sense. Sure not a great heavyweight, but again he weight in 170's lol.

I was impress with Burns vs O'Brain.

Yogi
01-09-2006, 04:33 PM
I have footage of Jack McAuliffe sparing with Dempsey and Carpntera.

I was impress with him for a work out that is. They never relly went at it, I am pretty sure Dempsey would crush a 40 something year old McAuliffe in 1 round. they were playing around. BUT you can see his style. He was not a slugger, but a boxer, on his toes, working behind the jab. Sort of like Tommy Burns if one puts it.

And Tommy Burns was a GREAT fighter, on a pound for pound sense. Sure not a great heavyweight, but again he weight in 170's lol.

I was impress with Burns vs O'Brain.

Yep, I remember that McAuliffe thread of yours over at ESB and I was the one who posted that Ring article on him (Sam I Am!).

And you're right about Tommy Burns & it's really unfortunate that he's so underated as a p4p fighter nowadays. I've never seen the O'Brien footage of him (only vs. Squires & Johnson), but I'm impressed with what little I've seen from him (quick of hand & especially foot, with some excellant power in those long arms of his) and also what I've read of him by those around during his time...Because of his size & accomplishments, I'd rate him as a Light Heavyweight and the success he had against O'Brien (who's a great Light heavy in his own right) indicates that he'd be a tough fight for any sub 175 pounder in history.

Dempsey1238
01-09-2006, 04:59 PM
A few others that are mostly over look are Ike Williams and Joe Brown.

I not sure, why but Williams was the best lightweight of the 1940's or so, But it seem Jack and others got the bigger fans, and MADE more money, could be William's mangment were ripping Williams off of eveny dime he made off his fights. And we thought Don King was a crook lol. Williams was paid next to nothing for his title fights.

Jack of couse made all this money, spend it on wine, women and song, got broke, and went back to shinning shoes. Not bad if one considers the HUGH tips Marciano would give him.(Thinks to Rocky's rich freinds of couse.)

Marciano seem to go out of his way to look after Jack and other down and out fighters.

I loved Barney Ross, even though NOT the greatness lightweight of all time, he IS MY FAVOR lightweight of all time. He was fun to watch, I have a few of his fights with McLarnin, and Canzonzier and others. Great fighter. And in over 80 pro fights, HAS never been knockout. He had a great chin. and he face punchers like Toni and Armstrong. of couse Armstrong was said to carry the old champion, but I not sure if Armstrong try to knockout Ross, he would have ko him , maybe stop him yes. But not put him out with a ten count.
Ross was one of the great ones, and in a rival between a Jew, A Italian, and a Irish was what one Manager said, was a gold mind.

Ross of couse was the Jew, Toni the Italian, and McLarnin the Irish.

Thsos 3 had neighborhood wars in the 1930's and MADE up a great part of the Jew, Italian, Irish rival in boxing at the time. And made a lot of money for the sport at the time.

As for Nelson he is there for a top ten, kinda of to Gans, was the Joe Fraizer to Gans's Ali.

And Fraizer is a top ten imo. They both are almost alike, Take a hit to deliver one, and just keep punching. Nelson could complete. I was amazing with the Gans Nelson fight(over a hour of footage I have) with how they both took and deliver punisment on both sides. Than at the later rounds(30ish lol) Gans took over and knock down Nelson a few times, before Nelson low blow Gans.

Nelson would beat Gans 2 times after this lost.
One of the greats, Sure Mayweather could out box Nelson for 12 rounds, but could he do it for 30?? 40??? 100??? Nelson is over look. And he fought in a deep era.

I am relly thinking of dropping Armstrong, as like I said, he only held it for a short time, NEVER defended the title, and drop it after doing that feat.
Ambers maybe?? Britt??? Both have done more for the divsion than Armstrong. Carter?? Ortiz??? Relly a hard choice since there is so many great ones.

Yaman
01-09-2006, 05:08 PM
Duran Duran :)

blockhead
01-09-2006, 05:49 PM
roberto duran

Yogi
01-09-2006, 06:45 PM
A few others that are mostly over look are Ike Williams and Joe Brown.

I not sure, why but Williams was the best lightweight of the 1940's or so, But it seem Jack and others got the bigger fans, and MADE more money, could be William's mangment were ripping Williams off of eveny dime he made off his fights. And we thought Don King was a crook lol. Williams was paid next to nothing for his title fights.

Jack of couse made all this money, spend it on wine, women and song, got broke, and went back to shinning shoes. Not bad if one considers the HUGH tips Marciano would give him.(Thinks to Rocky's rich freinds of couse.)

Marciano seem to go out of his way to look after Jack and other down and out fighters.

Greek, Ike Williams is my favourite historical Lightweight fighter and I'm glad you also have a high opinion of him. And yeah...whether it him being blackballed by the Managers Guild after parting ways with McCarthy, or the fact that Ike was attacked & had his belt stolen immediately after defeating Zurita, or because he had so much stolen from him by those who surrounded him...He never got nearly the breaks or certainly the coin that Beau Jack did throughout that great era of Lightweights.

But man, what a friggin' fighter! Love the way he looks on film, especially the 6th round destruction of Jack in '48. Just about the total package with his great inside & outside skills, elusiveness, quick reflexes, great power, handspeed, strength, toughness, punch variety, agressiveness, heart, pride, etc., etc...You name it, and Ike was liable to count that as one of his many fighting attributes. Oh, and he could also be pretty nasty too if the situation called for it, as evident by him saying that he "wanted to murder Montgomery" in their rematch, even though he gave the Bobcat a pretty good ****kicking in one of the great fights of that whole era.

I would've loved to have been around and following/watching the Lightweights of that mid 1940's era, because there was some ****ing great talent in the division at that time...Ike Williams, Bob Montgomery, Beau Jack, Sammy Angott, Willie Joyce, Freddie Dawson, Enrique Bolanos, Lulu Constantino, Wesley Mouzon, Jesse Flores, Juan Zurita, etc...The Lightweight division of the 1940's was loaded with top-notch talent and they were putting on some of the most memorable & exciting fights in all of boxing.

And yeah, Marciano did visit Beau Jack quite often at the Lac Fontaine Bleau Hotel, or whatever it was called (I'm too lazy to look it up at the moment, but it was French sounding anyways) and like you say, often had his "entourage" give Jack a fist full of dollars. Beau Jack used to bug Marciano about that too, because he wanted to at least give Rocky the odd shoeshine in exchange...But Marciano would have none of that, as he had WAY too much respect for the great Lightweight. There's a quote in Marciano's bio along the lines of "I'll never let you shine my shoes, because you were too great of a champion."

There's also stories about how Marciano helped other fighters like Georgie Abrams for example, who was working as a parking valet or something, and I think Rocky just about nailed Abrmas boss one time because he thought Georgie was being disrespected (and made sure Georgie was going to eat for the next long while, as well).

Of course, there was Willie Pep, who Rocky went out of his way to help out whenever possible, whether it be getting Willie in on an appearance or just giving him some cash..."Take whatever you want Willie". Pep was one of, if not THE fighter that Rocky looked up to the most.

Yogi
01-09-2006, 06:49 PM
P.S. I meant to post this Battling Nelson link for anybody interested in reading up on this great fighter & character from so long ago;

http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Track/4980/index.htm

It's been a while since I read through it, but there's some top quality stuff about Nelson on that site and it's a great read!

Dempsey1238
01-09-2006, 06:58 PM
yeah Marciano help out a lot of old fighters down and out

Joe Louis
Ezzard Charles.
Pep
JAck
and others, the list is endless I guess.

He paid for Charles med care, when Charles was dieing.

Yogi
01-09-2006, 07:12 PM
It might be of interest to those who haven't seen it yet, so here's the IBRO's ranking of the greatest Lightweights of all-time;

1. Benny Leonard
2. Roberto Duran
3. Joe Gans
4. Henry Armstrong
5. Tony Canzoneri
6. Ike Williams
7. Pernell Whitaker
8. Barnet Ross
9. Julio Cesar Chavez
10. Lou Ambers
11. Carlos Ortiz
12. Jack Blackburn
13. Battling Nelson
14. Alexis Arguello
15. Freddie Welsh
16. Packy McFarland
17. Aaron Pryor
18. Joe Brown
19. Shane Mosley
20. Jack McAuliffe

Just missing the cut: Ad Wolgast, Beau Jack, Lew Tendler, Kid Lavigne, Floyd Mayweather Jr., Ken Buchanan, Bob Montgomery, Ismael Laguna, Sammy Mandell, Sammy Angott and Esteban DeJesus.

Can be found here along with their other divisional rankings from Featherweight to Heavyweight;

http://www.ibroresearch.com/All%20Time%20Rankings.htm

Yogi
01-09-2006, 07:19 PM
And here's The Ring's ranking of the 20 greatest Lightweights of all-time, which was first printed in their Sept 2001 issue;

1. Roberto Duran
2. Benny Leonard
3. Pernell Whitaker
4. Joe Gans
5. Ike Williams
6. Joe Brown
7. Carlos Ortiz
8. Tony Canzoneri
9. Bob Montgomery
10. Beau Jack
11. Lou Ambers
12. Freddie Welsh
13. Shane Mosley
14. Henry Armstrong
15. Esteban DeJesus
16. Ken Buchanan
17. Jack McAuliffe
18. Ismael Laguna
19. Ad Wolgast
20. Oscar De La Hoya

Honourable Mentions: Sammy Angott, Alexis Arguello, Jimmy Carter, Julio Cesar Chavez, Miguel Angel Gonzalez, Steve Johnston, Battling Nelson, Jose Luis Ramirez, Edwin Rosario and Barney Ross


Bah...I like the IBRO's better on a whole, but to be fair, their's were based on a compilation from a number of people, while The Ring's is based on the opinion of only one writer (William Dettloff).

Dempsey1238
01-09-2006, 07:25 PM
why would Pernell Whitaker be over the likes or Ross, Gans and co???

hellfire508
01-09-2006, 07:36 PM
1.Roberto Duran
2.Benny Leonard
3.Joe Gans
4.Pernell Whitaker
5.Ike Williams
6. Julio Cesar Chavez
7. Henry Armstrong
8.Tony Canzoneri
9.Lou Ambers
10.Carlos Ortiz

Yogi
01-09-2006, 07:50 PM
why would Pernell Whitaker be over the likes or Ross, Gans and co???

How about I let Dettloff answer that question for you, Greek, and I'll copy what he says about Whitaker in his writeup from that issue of The Ring?


"For whatever reason, you won't find a lot of guys who will admit that Whitaker is one of the best lightweights ever. probably it has less to do with his fighting ability and talent than it does with his personality, which many find grating, and his style, which many find boring. The case is easily made regardless because outside of Roberto Duran and Benny leonard, the two who procede him in this compilation, there never has been a more dominant or consistent lightweight.

Consider first: from the time he turned pro with a second-round kayo of Farrain Comeaux in 1984, until just before he decisioned Rafael Pineda to win the IBF junior welterweight title in July 1992, Whitaker went undefeated in 30 fights. (Of course, the record books will tell you he lost a decision to Jose Luis Ramirez in March '88 in his first title shot. Don't believe them. Don King knew it, and Jose Sulaiman knew it. The judges knew it, too, or should have at least. Whitaker shut him out in a rematch a year later--same as the first time.)

During that 30-fight span, Whitaker unified the lightweight title, made a total of eight defenses, and whipped outright every challenger that could be found. If he lost five rounds during that 30-fight period (not including the first Ramirez fight) it would suprise anyone who followed him closely and watched him dissect and outbox Roger Mayweather, Greg Haugen, Freddie Pendleton, Anthony Jones, Jorge Paez, and even the great Azumah Nelson, among others. He faced anyone who represented even a reasonable challenge. The more dangerous the better. He had no reason to duck anyone.

Was it exciting when Whitaker was getting all this business done? Hell no. There never was drama. He was so much better than everyone, any question of an upset dissipated by the second round. then the only question was whether he would score a knockout. Usually, it was no. Was he a gracious winner? No again. He taunted and mocked everyone in the ring, including Nelson, which seemed at the time to be in especially bad taste, seeing as how Nelson was coming up in weight and already was past his best. But great fighters aren't always nice guys. Get over it.

Even as Whitaker's place in history is diminished by some, there are those who rank him as the greatest lightweight ever, above Duran and Leonard. You could make a case, but his body of work at 135 isn't big enough. If he had stayed at lightweight for a longer period, if not for the duration of his career, it would have been different. He might have pocketed another 10 title defenses, maybe reigned for seven or eight years, maybe more. But some of his best and most important fights--against Julio Cesar Chavez and Buddy McGirt, for example--came at welterweight. Either way, we wouldn't bet against him in a fight against any lightweight on this list. He was that great."

Signed: Max Kelle...oops, William "Buttfly" Dettloff

Dempsey1238
01-09-2006, 07:56 PM
but still number 3 of ALL time??

hellfire508
01-09-2006, 08:27 PM
Both Gans and Whitaker have very impressive resumes. Their dominance at LW is obvious, but for the moment we will just look at opposition:

Whitaker:
Azumah Nelson
Jose Luis Ramirez
Roger Mayweather
Jorge Paez
Juan Nazario

Gans:
Battling Nelson
Rudy Unholz
Jack Blackburn
Joe Walcott (D)
Kid Herman
Jimmy Britt
Frank Erne

Both have impressive resumes at lightweight. Gans had 17 defenses according to some sources, though the official number is 14. He holds the record at lightweight.

When you consider that blacks were so hated at the time, it is widely accepted most of the draws and ND's on Gans' record are infact wins, though they weren't awarded.

The same went for Whitaker against Chavez - he was robbed- though that was at 147.

I would love to see Gans vs whitaker, two great - flashy fighters and defensive experts in the ring.

LondonRingRules
01-09-2006, 09:58 PM
** I'm gonna keep my mouth shut because I see the proper fighters are getting the proper respect in general.

Personally, I think Armstrong KOs Pea in a 15 rounder had they met. Too much pressure smooshes peas, ya know. Yeah, I had to pipe up!

blockhead
01-09-2006, 10:12 PM
why would Pernell Whitaker be over the likes or Ross, Gans and co???
or armstrong.

hellfire508
01-10-2006, 07:50 AM
or armstrong.

Personally...I think Armstrong was far better at featherweight and welterweight. Still top ten at light though.

Dempsey 1919
01-10-2006, 12:12 PM
Personally...I think Armstrong was far better at featherweight and welterweight. Still top ten at light though.

definetely gans by far is better than all of them.

Yogi
01-10-2006, 03:34 PM
definetely gans by far is better than all of them.

Maybe that term is used in your world, but realistically, there's no such thing as one fighter being "by far" greater than all others who fought in their division.

That's not to say that I disagree with your selection of Gans, though, because he's a very strong candidate as the greatest Lightweight in history (I ranked him #2) and I'm actually kinda glad to see that you have so much respect for him.

Dempsey 1919
01-10-2006, 05:14 PM
Maybe that term is used in your world, but realistically, there's no such thing as one fighter being "by far" greater than all others who fought in their division.

That's not to say that I disagree with your selection of Gans, though, because he's a very strong candidate as the greatest Lightweight in history (I ranked him #2) and I'm actually kinda glad to see that you have so much respect for him.

if i pick someone, it's because i have a good reason. :)

oldgringo
01-10-2006, 06:45 PM
I would have to go ahead and say Roberto Duran.

However, there is the strong argument in Benny Leonard's favor when you listen to what Arcel had to say. He probably would know more about this afterall.

Personally, I have seen a LOT more Roberto Duran than I have seen of Leonard (which is in fact nothing...only have read about the ghetto wizard), which also sways me to go ahead and call it in favor of Duran. The fact that Duran was successful all the way up to 160 pounds also has something to do with my decision.

The only man I can see beating a top form Duran would be a top form Whitaker. Whitaker at his peak was one of the most dominating fighters I've ever seen. Again, my take might be a bit biased because Whitaker was my favorite fighter ever, but I feel that he had the legs, skills, and natural talents to beat any lightweight in a single 15 round fight.

I wouldn't bet against Duran in a 5 fight series against anyone else either.

moondog0
01-11-2006, 10:17 AM
When I first started boxing in 1978, I bought 8mm films of Duran fighting for the championship, he was molded after the old time fighters, tough toe to toe style, full of surprises and power, I think in his prime as a lightweight he would have been tough to beat.
Duran#1,,,,,

Yaman
01-14-2006, 06:43 PM
No The Greatest Lichtweight Ever Is.........
............................................
Regilio Tuur!!!

The Wire
01-15-2006, 11:47 AM
Roberto Duran

Yogi
06-05-2006, 01:57 PM
I uploaded this yesterday for a buddy on here, so the least I could do is to pass it on for anybody else interested...

Some Joe Gans for you (versus Kid Herman);

http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=6C1B21A266466AF2

Heckler
06-05-2006, 10:03 PM
Cant pick between Duran, Gans, and Leonard... if i had to id give the nudge to Duran because ive seen so much more of him.

K-DOGG
06-05-2006, 10:31 PM
I'll admit I'm biased towards Duran; but I do believe the talent pool was deeper when Leonard reigned and God only knows how good Joe Gans could have been if he'd lived. The first fight with Battling Nelson still blows me away. Modern lightweights who should be thought of include both Chavez and Whitaker. Ike Williams, I think, deserves to be in the Top Ten. Truthfully, I'll have to rehash through my notes...if I can find them.. :rolleyes: before I could compile a full Top Ten list, though. Top 3 would most assuredly consist of the first Three I mentioned, though...no question.

sleazyfellow
06-06-2006, 04:25 AM
i way biased with these three boxers...armstrong, ike williams, n beu jack, but yeah another thing is i gotta give props for a non-heavyweight thread, it seems thats all ppl like to talk about, besides lightweight i also enjoy the junior welterweight division.

Yogi
06-06-2006, 05:39 AM
Here's one of the more entertaining fights that I have ever seen from the lightweight division (lots of punches & blood!), and it pits Mando Ramos versus Sugar Ramos;

http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=542F82D2551511C8

The Raging Bull
06-06-2006, 07:24 AM
Easily roberto duran. Silly question really ;)

Yogi
02-02-2007, 12:08 PM
Just bumping this thread for any new opinions or rankings (Butterfly maybe?) that some posters may have in regards to this division, which just happens to be my personal favourite in the historical sense of things.

eazy_mas
02-02-2007, 12:18 PM
you forgot Alexis Argullo, Pernell Whitaker, and Chavez.

as well as Castillo and Corrales too Freitas and Casamayor and Shane Mosely

sorry i dont know old school fighters that much

Yogi
02-02-2007, 12:21 PM
Ike Williams vs. Beau Jack, in one of the most brutal finishes to a fight that I've ever seen;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idjG3tyEiNc

oldgringo
02-02-2007, 12:29 PM
Ike Williams vs. Beau Jack, in one of the most brutal finishes to a fight that I've ever seen;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idjG3tyEiNc

yogi, do you know if there is any footage of ike becoming the undisputed LW champ against bob montgomery?

Yogi
02-02-2007, 12:40 PM
yogi, do you know if there is any footage of ike becoming the undisputed LW champ against bob montgomery?

As much as I'd love to, Gringo, I've never seen that fight (which is supposed to be legendary for this division), and to tell you the truth, I've never heard of any footage even existing/surviving to this day.

cyberthugpatrol
02-02-2007, 12:43 PM
no question about it, JULIO CESAR CHAVEZ

Dempsey 1919
02-02-2007, 12:44 PM
Ike Williams vs. Beau Jack, in one of the most brutal finishes to a fight that I've ever seen;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idjG3tyEiNc

I changed my mind. IMO Armstrong is the best lightweight ever.

1. Henry Armstrong
2. Joe Gans
3. Roberto Duran
4. Benny Leonard
5. Ike Williams

cyberthugpatrol
02-02-2007, 12:45 PM
Easily roberto duran. Silly question really ;)

over-rated

http://www.antekprizering.com/hearnsduranstublesspic.jpeg

Yogi
02-02-2007, 01:08 PM
I changed my mind. IMO Armstrong is the best lightweight ever.

1. Henry Armstrong
2. Joe Gans
3. Roberto Duran
4. Benny Leonard
5. Ike Williams

Looks very good, Butterfly, and I take it that you're ranking here was compiled under the same criteria you rank heavyweights, which makes it a largely head-to-head type of ranking?

If so, what's your thoughts on how a Henry Armstrong/Ike Williams fight plays out?

That fight there is probably my favourite mythical matchup from this division and I always found it a tough one to handicap.

Mr. Ryan
02-02-2007, 01:14 PM
Roberto Duran
Henry Armstrong
Ike Williams

K-DOGG
02-02-2007, 01:28 PM
It's one of these guys:

Benny Leonard
Joe Gans
Henry Armstrong
Ike Williams

or

Roberto Duran, of course. ;)


Can't think of anyone else in their league.

Mr. Ryan
02-02-2007, 01:33 PM
over-rated

http://www.antekprizering.com/hearnsduranstublesspic.jpeg

Duran fought Hearns 20 pounds north of Lightweight. We are talking about lightweights here, not greatest junior middleweights.

K-DOGG
02-02-2007, 01:35 PM
Duran fought Hearns 20 pounds north of Lightweight. We are talking about lightweights here, not greatest junior middleweights.

Pay no attention to him. He's biased as hell against Duran.

Dempsey 1919
02-02-2007, 01:35 PM
Looks very good, Butterfly, and I take it that you're ranking here was compiled under the same criteria you rank heavyweights, which makes it a largely head-to-head type of ranking?

If so, what's your thoughts on how a Henry Armstrong/Ike Williams fight plays out?

That fight there is probably my favourite mythical matchup from this division and I always found it a tough one to handicap.

I suppose Williams will box and move, but Armstrong would eventually wear him down and take him out in the later rounds. It would go something like Marciano-Charles or something like that.

SABBATH
02-02-2007, 01:56 PM
Ike Williams vs. Beau Jack, in one of the most brutal finishes to a fight that I've ever seen;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idjG3tyEiNcNo thanks to the ref. Just brutal. Ike Williams was a beautiful fighter. Great movement with excellent two fisted accuracy and power. One of those rare top notch boxer/punchers.

Love the successive left hooks that starts the onslaught.

cyberthugpatrol
02-02-2007, 01:58 PM
Duran fought Hearns 20 pounds north of Lightweight. We are talking about lightweights here, not greatest junior middleweights.

don't change this:

OVER-RATED
http://www.antekprizering.com/hearnsduranstublesspic.jpeg

oldgringo
02-02-2007, 02:29 PM
As highly as a rate a lot of lightweights such as Duran, Leonard, Armstrong, Canzo, etc...I'd favor my boy Pete Whitaker in a head to head matchups over all of these fellas.

What say you about that?

brownpimp88
02-02-2007, 02:48 PM
It's one of these guys:

Benny Leonard
Joe Gans
Henry Armstrong
Ike Williams

or

Roberto Duran, of course. ;)


Can't think of anyone else in their league.

what did armstrong do at 135? His accomplishments are mostly at 147 and 126. Pernell whitaker is usually ranked higher than ike williams and joe gans, its simple, he has more skills.

Ring Magazine do in fact rank pernell ahead of tony cazanory, ike williams, and carlos ortiz. If you dont believe me, look it up. Hell i'll paste it right now.

Here is thier 10 best from the last 80 years.

1. ray robinson
2. henry armstrong
3. muhammad ali
4. joe louis
5. roberto duran
6. willie pep
7. harry greb
8. benny leonard
9. ray leonard
10. pernell whitaker

I agree with gringo though, i would favour pernell over any lightweight in a head to head matchup.

I honestly think pernell is better than benny. He couldnt win the welterweight title, while pernell was linear welterweight champ for 4 years. Pernell also won the belt at 140 and 154. The guys pernell beat at 135 are also better than the ones that benny beat. He beat ramirez, haugen, nazario, paez, roger mayweather, jones, poli diaz, azumah nelson, freddie pendelton and louie lomelli.

K-DOGG
02-02-2007, 05:39 PM
what did armstrong do at 135? His accomplishments are mostly at 147 and 126. Pernell whitaker is usually ranked higher than ike williams and joe gans, its simple, he has more skills.

Ring Magazine do in fact rank pernell ahead of tony cazanory, ike williams, and carlos ortiz. If you dont believe me, look it up. Hell i'll paste it right now.

Here is thier 10 best from the last 80 years.

1. ray robinson
2. henry armstrong
3. muhammad ali
4. joe louis
5. roberto duran
6. willie pep
7. harry greb
8. benny leonard
9. ray leonard
10. pernell whitaker

I agree with gringo though, i would favour pernell over any lightweight in a head to head matchup.

I honestly think pernell is better than benny. He couldnt win the welterweight title, while pernell was linear welterweight champ for 4 years. Pernell also won the belt at 140 and 154. The guys pernell beat at 135 are also better than the ones that benny beat. He beat ramirez, haugen, nazario, paez, roger mayweather, jones, poli diaz, azumah nelson, freddie pendelton and louie lomelli.

I'll have to answer in detail tomorrow; but Hank was a damn good lightweight champ as well as welterweight champ and deserves to be recognized.


More to come.

brownpimp88
02-02-2007, 07:14 PM
Let's take a good look at the guys benny leonard beat during his lightweight reign.

freddie welsh
leo johnson
jimmy duffy
charley white
joe welling
frankie mitchell
rocky kansas
lew tendler
jack britton
dundee

Not a single guy from this list is an ATG on the level of azumah nelson and julio cesar chavez. Pernell whitaker is better than good ole benny, give it up.

Dempsey1238
02-03-2007, 11:20 AM
Thsos are GREAT fighters though.

Rocky Kansas is a former champ. Largely FORGOTTING in this era. But in his hey day, he was hot stuff. He was able to nab the title for a year, All though not in the hall of fame, He is a GREAT fighter. Sadly there is no film of Kansas, but he is top 20 lightweights at the least imo. One of the best in the early 1920's.

You must of not seen the Tendler fight. I score it for Benny easy. Though it was a ND bout. But still Tendler was a FAST, hard punching lightweight. He was only a step behind Leonard in that fight. Tendler would GIVE any atg problems. he is no push over. IF Benny had anything NEAR a rivial in his lightweight rein, It was Tendler.

Jack Brittion was a ALL time great. In the 1900's that is. His rivial with Ted Kid Lewis is still rember. OF couse when Benny fought him, he was pass his best, BUT still a good fighter. Passing of the torch is how I view it. I belive Jack Brittion is in the hall. IF NOT it is a shame, because Brittion was a great figther.


freddie welsh IS a great fighter, his problem is he lost to Benny. Former champ and Leonard took the title from Welsh. Welsh was a a great boxer. And Johnny Dundee was OTHER atg in lightweights. He held the title for nearly 5 years. after Benny retire. And is in the hall. These guys are NOT push overs. And are evey bit as good as Nelson, Whitaker, or Chavez. Time has made most people forget these forgotting fighters. They were great. And WOULD give any one trouble if not out right beat them.

K-DOGG
02-03-2007, 11:26 AM
Let's take a good look at the guys benny leonard beat during his lightweight reign.

freddie welsh
leo johnson
jimmy duffy
charley white
joe welling
frankie mitchell
rocky kansas
lew tendler
jack britton
dundee

Not a single guy from this list is an ATG on the level of azumah nelson and julio cesar chavez. Pernell whitaker is better than good ole benny, give it up.

:eek: Dude!! Are You Serious?! Have you read the accounts of any of those fights?!

Honestly speaking, I can only vouch for Welsh, Britton, Dundee and Tendler, who were bonafied greats; but the others had damn impressive records, so they were obviously not "bums".

I would not be so quick to sweep Leonard's legacy under the rug. I'm not dissing Whitaker, who was a bonafied all-time great; but I"m not about to say he was better than Leonard when Leonard's record is just as impressive.....especially when considering how many more fights he had. Could Whitaker have been as successful as Leonard if he had fought as much and as often?

Something worth thinking about.

PATO 1
02-03-2007, 11:36 AM
roberto duran

K-DOGG
02-03-2007, 11:41 AM
I do have a correction to make. When I listed Armstrong as one of teh best ever lightweights, I was thinking of his welterweight achievements....kind of hard to keep up with a guy who held titles in three divisions at once, ya know. :D

brownpimp88
02-03-2007, 02:33 PM
:eek: Dude!! Are You Serious?! Have you read the accounts of any of those fights?!

Honestly speaking, I can only vouch for Welsh, Britton, Dundee and Tendler, who were bonafied greats; but the others had damn impressive records, so they were obviously not "bums".

I would not be so quick to sweep Leonard's legacy under the rug. I'm not dissing Whitaker, who was a bonafied all-time great; but I"m not about to say he was better than Leonard when Leonard's record is just as impressive.....especially when considering how many more fights he had. Could Whitaker have been as successful as Leonard if he had fought as much and as often?

Something worth thinking about.

dude none of them are as good as nelson and chavez, i have done my research on them. I know how long each guy was champ, how many defences they made, who they beat, etc. Jack britton lost more times than pernell whitaker won fights

I saw the fight between tendler and leonard, no way does this guy beat duran or whitaker. I respect benny for breaking the colour line and being a hero to his jewish people, but to actually say he is better than guys like duran and whitaker is honestly an insult to both men.

The only resason benny fought so much is cuz he didnt have much of an amatuer career. Remember pernell is 201-14 in the amatuers and its the same thing as having ur first 60-70 pro fights against guys with 0-0 records.

By the way. benny's "draw" with ted kid lewis, was indeed a gift. The majority say he really lost that fight.

LondonRingRules
02-03-2007, 05:41 PM
dude none of them are as good as nelson and chavez, i have done my research on them.

** Dudette, you're like the guy who can identify surfboards but can't see the waves. Watching you defame a great fighter like Pea with your washerwoman flurries on Leonard is high comedy that normally costs mucho dinero!

Pea would be a handful for anyone because of his speed and negative style, but the poor guy was only good for 46 fights in spite of being carefully managed and and turning pro with a million dollar TV contract.

46 fights in Leonard's day and you might get your foot in the door of a main event if you kicked back half your purse. Forget about a title shot. Pea would be considered soft in Leonard's day when you had to fight 10-20x a year.

brownpimp88
02-03-2007, 05:51 PM
** Dudette, you're like the guy who can identify surfboards but can't see the waves. Watching you defame a great fighter like Pea with your washerwoman flurries on Leonard is high comedy that normally costs mucho dinero!

Pea would be a handful for anyone because of his speed and negative style, but the poor guy was only good for 46 fights in spite of being carefully managed and and turning pro with a million dollar TV contract.

46 fights in Leonard's day and you might get your foot in the door of a main event if you kicked back half your purse. Forget about a title shot. Pea would be considered soft in Leonard's day when you had to fight 10-20x a year.

dude it just means that leonard fought more guys with 0-0 records.

SABBATH
02-04-2007, 08:32 AM
dude it just means that leonard fought more guys with 0-0 records.An 0-0 record on boxrec doesn't necessarily mean that the boxer has never fought before (although it might). It just means that research has been unable to validate any prior fights that particular boxer had. They may have had fights they're just not on record. These records are constantly being updated.

There are a number of reasons why I hesitate to compare not just fighters, but the records of fighters from different eras.

Firstly the amateur issue which BP brought up is certainly valid. Because of the economic climate that old time fighters lived in, they often turned pro at 16 (sometimes less) while today's often don't turn pro until they're 20 or more. Lennox Lewis didn't turn pro until he was almost 24 years old.

If an amateur has in the neighbourhood of 100-200 amateur fights, that certainly qualifies as legitimate fighting/training/coaching experience as opposed to an old time fighter who turns pro under poor conditions with no amateur background and gets his experience fighting in one horse towns against the local tough guy, often training themselves with no formal instruction or coaching.

In terms of ability, a world class amateur (gold medal winner) after turning pro and if managed correctly and developed incrementally is often legitimately at the doorstep of the top 10 or even a title fight within 2-3 years and 20 fights.

Incrementally matchmaking a fighter against better and more difficult opponents allows a fighter to improve and progress more rapidly than fighting 70-80 fights against C and D level fighters. Evander Holyfield, Sugar Ray Leonard, Muhammad Ali....there are many examples.

In addition a world class fighter today would find it difficult to get a Boxing Commission to approve a fight against a D level opponent. Many old time fighters could pad their records, keep active and make money fighting opposition that was far inferior to them even if they were world class.

Nowadays a world class fighter ie: Delahoya, Mayweather, Mosley, Taylor, Hopkins etc...will continue to fight only world class opponents and in the case of B-Hop has done so for several years.

Rockin'
02-04-2007, 08:36 AM
Not that he was the greatest, but in speaking of lightweights I run into ex-champ Kenny Lane every so often. Hes running a club here in michigan. He is a really funny guy, always joking and carrying on..............Rockin':boxing:

sleazyfellow
02-05-2007, 03:50 AM
my two favorite lightweights are ike williams and beau jack, they looked huge for lightweights....i wonder whod win, duran or ike williams in a fantasy fight...

gloriamichaelc
11-25-2007, 07:00 AM
I'm here.. Many , many , great lightweight fighters by far the hardest to pick. Who n the heck beats duran n a 3 fight series WHO??? At 135. Oh didn't he 1980 Montreal duran beat ray. Don't even bring up no mas = Yes Deniro. Without bobby. Oh he got clocked n 2 up n weight past his prime Did he retire? No! He beat moore for the 154 title. Barely lost to hagler at 160 I felt it was a draw if a 12 rounder beats hagler. Beat barkley for 160lb title. Oh I forgot so so sorry, we are talking bouts a lightweight here. U get the point. Mikey!

AntonTheMeh
11-25-2007, 02:05 PM
Duran
Whitaker
Armstrong
Ortiz
Leonard
Gans
Williams

AntonTheMeh
11-25-2007, 02:06 PM
Not that he was the greatest, but in speaking of lightweights I run into ex-champ Kenny Lane every so often. Hes running a club here in michigan. He is a really funny guy, always joking and carrying on..............Rockin':boxing:

HE FOUGHT ORTIZ RIGHT?HAS HE EVER SPOKEN OF HIM?

Sweet Pete
11-26-2007, 05:37 PM
Benny Leonard rates at #1 for me.

Based on head to head, Whitaker and Duran rank at the top, with Whitaker holding the slight edge for me.

Sweet Pete
11-26-2007, 06:36 PM
** Dudette, you're like the guy who can identify surfboards but can't see the waves. Watching you defame a great fighter like Pea with your washerwoman flurries on Leonard is high comedy that normally costs mucho dinero!

Pea would be a handful for anyone because of his speed and negative style, but the poor guy was only good for 46 fights in spite of being carefully managed and and turning pro with a million dollar TV contract.

46 fights in Leonard's day and you might get your foot in the door of a main event if you kicked back half your purse. Forget about a title shot. Pea would be considered soft in Leonard's day when you had to fight 10-20x a year.
Pea woud've fought a lot more in Leonard's day as well. That's just the way things were done. They also fought a lot more cans in those days. They were basically sparring matches with local bums a lot of their fights.