View Full Version : Ali IS tha man...


LHWchamp5
12-31-2005, 05:10 PM
Was just wathcing a show on the fightnetwork called champions..
They were Highlighting the greatest champs in boxing such frazier, ali, foreman and tyson(Didnt' get to see the entire show)

Tyson had SOME class, Here's a quote from tyson right after his fight with larry holmes..
"It;s an honour for me to have larry holmes's name on my record"...

Anyway they interviewed ali, was fairly new cause well he wsa old and stuttering from parkinsons.. Anyway he had a smile on his facee and the interviewer asked ali, "Do you consider yourself one of the best fighters of all time??"

Ali with a huge smile and stuttering.. "Look at my face, look at my nose, i'm so beautiful, they couldn't touch me, I'm to pretty to get hit"...

I thought that was fukin great after all he's been through, all these years he hasnt' changed one bit..

Ali is da man..

supaduck
12-31-2005, 05:18 PM
"Do you consider yourself one of the best fighters of all time??"

Now there's a ****ing stupid question.

Dempsey 1919
12-31-2005, 05:52 PM
Now there's a ****ing stupid question.

yeah, maybe, cause i suppose every top ten all-time hw claims he's the best.

LHWchamp5
01-01-2006, 01:12 AM
yeah, maybe, cause i suppose every top ten all-time hw claims he's the best.

LOL but one can question:
Is ali great for his time???
Is all great all time??

ALi vs tyson?? = how many ears does ali have??
Every dominating champ is gonna be considered one of the greatest..
for his time ali was obvioulsy the best..
Tyson was the best in his time/youngest champ of all time..
Frazier and leanord we're popular for their time but both faced defeat against ali....

thereforrr it doesnt' matter what any fighter self proclaims.. It breaks down the popularitty among fans and the proffessional succes of a fighter..

supaduck
01-01-2006, 09:33 AM
What I meant was asking him if he considers himself a great. Maybe the person that asked him that should actually watch him after the fights or read some of his quotes, i.e "I am the greatest"... :o

LHWchamp5
01-01-2006, 09:38 AM
What I meant was asking him if he considers himself a great. Maybe the person that asked him that should actually watch him after the fights or read some of his quotes, i.e "I am the greatest"... :o


LOL, trust me it was great to see ali in his old age talkin like like he was a 25yrold champ..

supaduck
01-01-2006, 09:59 AM
I've heard loads of stories about it.

Brassangel
01-03-2006, 03:07 PM
When Lennox Lewis was at the top of his game, ESPN interviewd Muhammad Ali and he said (with the help of sub-titles), "I woulda whooped him in 6 rounds! That big lummox would cover up all night long and I'd whoop him just like I did Big George!" It's entertaining to watch him talk like that.

It's interesting to note, however, that in an interview shortly before that one, Ali said about Tyson, "I don't know if I could have handled a guy like him." That shows great respect to a guy who's overly ridiculed; coming from a man who sits top 3 in terms of all-time arrogance.

Ali is the man.

Yogi
01-03-2006, 03:20 PM
Brassangel, you seem to be an intelligent boxing fan judging from your posts that are so well written, so I'm going to take you off in a different direction (other than what seems to be the normal Tyson talk);

Henry Armstrong vs. Ike Williams?

moondog0
01-03-2006, 03:23 PM
I think Ali was a great fighter, but the only fighter that was any good that he beat was Foreman. And he just outsmarted him, but beat him fair and square, Frazier was small, slow and had one punch, Norton beat Ali in every one of his three fights, get the trilogy and watch it, Sonny Liston was a convict that never had one boxing lesson in his life, a media hype!

supaduck
01-03-2006, 03:30 PM
I think Ali was a great fighter, but the only fighter that was any good that he beat was Foreman. And he just outsmarted him, but beat him fair and square, Frazier was small, slow and had one punch, Norton beat Ali in every one of his three fights, get the trilogy and watch it, Sonny Liston was a convict that never had one boxing lesson in his life, a media hype!

This isn't really an insult, but you really are ignorant about boxing in general. Joe Frazier wasn't small. He was simply short. He was stocky. And he had excellent punches, every punch he had was great and powerful. Norton had a style that caused trouble for Ali in their first fight, and Ali won the next two (arguably).

Sonny Liston a media hype? The man beat Floyd Patterson in the first round twice. And if you don't know who Floyd Patterson is, then you seriously have got a lot to learn.
You need to watch more fights, and read more on boxing before you can post here without being labelled as a newbie idiot. All the fighters you dissed are great fighters, espescially Frazier and Liston, and posts like this will not go down well.

moondog0
01-03-2006, 03:35 PM
You did no that Sonny was found dead in a hotel room with a hypodermic needle hole in the base of his skull, killed by the mob that controlled his career and everyone elses he fought.,

supaduck
01-03-2006, 03:39 PM
LMFAO!

http://ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/negative4.jpg

Firstly, there's no proof that it was the mob, although it probably was. Secondly how does this make him a bad boxer? He most certainly did have boxing lessons in his life, much more than one.

Oh yes, the mob controlled the careers of everyone he faced. Not. The mob may well have controlled Liston to some extent, but he's just about the only one. Your comments keep getting stupider and stupider.

Yogi
01-03-2006, 03:50 PM
You did no that Sonny was found dead in a hotel room with a hypodermic needle hole in the base of his skull, killed by the mob that controlled his career and everyone elses he fought.,

**** man, if you're so friggin' certain Liston was killed off by the mob you should quickly get in touch with your local police dept or even the FBI, because even they couldn't figure out exactly what happened on that late December day in 1970...Ensure you contact his family, as well, as they would also like to have some closer by knowing exactly what happened.

You did know that all you're doing is spouting one of many different "rumours" in regards to Liston's death, don't you?

supaduck
01-03-2006, 04:06 PM
The point I was trying to make was that he said Liston wasn't even a good fighter, which is bull****, and then he used the mob rumour as an excuse to call Liston a bad fighter. :rolleyes:

moondog0
01-03-2006, 04:08 PM
Getting back to the point, Ali struggled with Frazier in all three fights, lost the first one, got the decision in the second one and fell to the mat in exhaustion, and won the last one in the last round, Ali had the geatest heart, mouth, and chin, but not the greatest fighter. Jack Johnson and Joe Louis would have beat him without doubt. Why he even struggled with Henry Cooper and that louse of a Jerry Quarry...

Gavilan1
01-03-2006, 04:19 PM
Greatest heart? I'm not so sure about that. He wanted to quit in most of his major fights, but Dundee wouldn't let him

Brockton Lip
01-03-2006, 04:25 PM
Jack Johnson and Joe Louis would have beat him without doubt.

I can't see a prime Ali losing to either of these men. Its possible but in my opinion, Ali wouldn't lose 2 out of 3.

Gavilan1
01-03-2006, 04:29 PM
Jack Johnson would of no doubt beat Ali. The defensive Jimmy Young caused problems for Ali and He arguably won that fight. The same could go for Jack Johnson who was a great defensive fighter, and had much more power then Young could ever dream of having.

Yogi
01-03-2006, 04:42 PM
The point I was trying to make was that he said Liston wasn't even a good fighter, which is bull****, and then he used the mob rumour as an excuse to call Liston a bad fighter. :rolleyes:

Of course that comment is bull****, Supa, and anybody who took the time to watch some of Liston's earlier fights (like vs. Williams x2, Bethea, Machen, Whitehurst, Patterson x2, etc.) can see that it is bull****.

supaduck
01-03-2006, 04:57 PM
Agreed, he was awesome. But Ali beat him the first time fair and square. Obviously moondog or whatever he's called doesn't watch boxing.

Gavilan1
01-03-2006, 04:58 PM
Agreed, he was awesome. But Ali beat him the first time fair and square. Obviously moondog or whatever he's called doesn't watch boxing.

Question for you.

Where would you rank Roy Jones as a middleweight. W'ere talking all-time here.

Dempsey 1919
01-03-2006, 05:48 PM
Getting back to the point, Ali struggled with Frazier in all three fights, lost the first one, got the decision in the second one and fell to the mat in exhaustion, and won the last one in the last round, Ali had the geatest heart, mouth, and chin, but not the greatest fighter. Jack Johnson and Joe Louis would have beat him without doubt. Why he even struggled with Henry Cooper and that louse of a Jerry Quarry...

ali didn't struggle with frazier that much in the second fight, and all those fights were past his prime.

excuse me? jack johnson and joe louis? you've got to be kidding? johnson was floored by a middleweight in stanley ketchel and louis was floored by a light hw in billy conn, so imagine what ali would do to them. johnson doesn't have the speed ali does, plus he's way smaller than ali, and ali has a granite chin so none of johnson's punches would hurt him. ali ko's johnson in 6 rounds or less, period. and as for louis, joe always had trouble with movers (like billy conn) people who were fast on their feet and could box, well who else is a better mover/boxer than muhammad ali? and plus ali is bigger than the guys louis fought, in fact ali is bigger than louis himself! so louis would be frustrated all night and be ko'd in the 8th.

and you are either a pathological liar or just retarded. ali struggled with cooper? the first fight with cooper clay dominated most of the fight maybe losing the second round by a close margin and cut his face to ribbons, i've never seen anybody's eyes look worst than that after a fight, and after less than five rounds for goodness sakes imagine if the ref let the fight continue; cooper would be blind in that eye for the rest of his life no doubt. cooper just caught him with a lucky punch in the fourth that's all. and the second fight, forget about it, ali obviously cut his face up again as well, but cooper couldn't land crap, cause ali knew cooper's game plan cause he fought him before, so ali made that fight no more than an exhibition.

and ali didn't struggle with quarry at all either, wow, where are you getting your information from? he desposed of quarry in three rounds with absolutely no trouble, when ali's last fight was almost four years before. and the second fight was nothing much either, ali got a tko in the sixth with ease.

supaduck
01-03-2006, 05:50 PM
Nice posting, Butterfly.

Dempsey 1919
01-03-2006, 05:51 PM
Jack Johnson would of no doubt beat Ali. The defensive Jimmy Young caused problems for Ali and He arguably won that fight. The same could go for Jack Johnson who was a great defensive fighter, and had much more power then Young could ever dream of having.

ali was 34 and showing some signs of parkinsons syndrome, doofus. we're taking primes, at least i am. a 25 yr. old ali would dispose of young in 6, and johnson in about the same round. do you know how small johnson is and how big ali is? plus add ali's speed in the picture and it's a no brainer! :cool:

Dempsey 1919
01-03-2006, 05:55 PM
Nice posting, Butterfly.

thanks, i do try. :D

Yogi
01-03-2006, 05:59 PM
do you know how small johnson is and how big ali is?

Umm...do you?

If you did I doubt very much that you'd consider size to be a factor in the fight.

Dempsey 1919
01-03-2006, 06:37 PM
Umm...do you?

If you did I doubt very much that you'd consider size to be a factor in the fight.

johnson 6'-1" 195. ali 6'-3 1/2" 213. about 20 lbs.

Yogi
01-03-2006, 06:52 PM
johnson 6'-1" 195. ali 6'-3 1/2" 213. about 20 lbs.

What did you do, Butterfly, take the lightest Johnson weighed during his title reign and compared that to the Heaviest Ali weighed in his first reign?

Hey, I can do that to...Johnson 6'-1 1/2", 221lbs. Ali 6'3", 201 lbs. About 20 lbs.

Or what we could do is take them at what is considered to be their prime efforts or best wins at Heavyweight, vs. Jeffries and Terrell/Williams respectively;

Johnson: 6'-1 1/2", 205 lbs or so (and if you've seen the fight, Johnson looks in excellant shape and is quite cut)

Ali: 6'-3", 210 lbs or so.

The difference of an inch and a few pounds is pretty much irrelevant!

Dempsey 1919
01-03-2006, 07:36 PM
What did you do, Butterfly, take the lightest Johnson weighed during his title reign and compared that to the Heaviest Ali weighed in his first reign?

Hey, I can do that to...Johnson 6'-1 1/2", 221lbs. Ali 6'3", 201 lbs. About 20 lbs.

Or what we could do is take them at what is considered to be their prime efforts or best wins at Heavyweight, vs. Jeffries and Terrell/Williams respectively;

Johnson: 6'-1 1/2", 205 lbs or so (and if you've seen the fight, Johnson looks in excellant shape and is quite cut)

Ali: 6'-3", 210 lbs or so.

The difference of an inch and a few pounds is pretty much irrelevant!

no that's not what i did. i took their prime weight. johnson in his PRIME weighed 195-197 and ali weighed 212-213 in his PRIME in 1967.

Yogi
01-03-2006, 08:02 PM
no that's not what i did. i took their prime weight. johnson in his PRIME weighed 195-197 and ali weighed 212-213 in his PRIME in 1967.

LOL!

If somebody can't say Johnson was in his prime during the first couple of years of his title reign (when he routinely weighed around 205), when the hell was his prime?

I have footage of his fights against Burns and Jeffries (as well as others), and there's no way Johnson lost anything between those fights...In fact, I'm more impressed with his performance against Jeffries.

And Ali had a two fight & three month prime, is that what you're saying?

Yogi
01-03-2006, 09:05 PM
Nice posting, Butterfly.

Why compliment that stuff, man?

Not only is there at least a couple factually inaccurate statements in there, but his "imagine what Ali would do to them" statement is completely laughable...It's like me saying, "if a light hitting, 195 pounder like Karl Mildenberger can hurt Ali to the body with a hook, just imagine what a MUCH harder hitting & bigger Joe Louis could do to Ali."

Butterfly looks at one side and one side only with these fantasy fights (spins them to favour his lover), and his logic is nothing but complete crap!

Brassangel
01-03-2006, 11:20 PM
Whew! Sorry I haven't posted for a few pages, so I apologize if I touch on something already meantioned. I was at Lamaze classes with my wife for 3 1/2 hours.

I think that Butterfly did a decent job posting his retort, but it's clear that he spun the whole argument to look favorable for his favorite boxer of all time. If I'm not mistaken, Ali struggled in some of those matches listed above. Also, it seems as though Ali had the shortest "prime" career of any heavyweight champion when discussing situations where he struggled.

On a side note: in all fairness, Jeffries had close to 3 years off from the sport, as well as over 90 pounds to shed before his match with Jack Johnson. Were he not involved in some racial discrepencies, and had he stayed in the game, Johnson may never have beaten an athlete like Jeffries. This holds no relevence to the topic at hand, but it was a juicy bit of information I obtained from a Jeffries biographer. Oh yeah, Jack Johnson hovered around 205 in his prime. Ali was 210 when he was the true Butterfly in the ring. 5 pounds and 1 1/2 inches isn't enough to pass that off as Ali's route to victory. I do believe that Ali would beat Louis 2/2 times, but that doesn't mean that it wouldn't be tough for Ali either. Anything can happen in the ring.

I also believe that Yogi asked me a question somewhere along the line, but I didn't catch it. What did [you] want again?

Yaman
01-04-2006, 08:06 AM
Joe Louis could beat EVERY fighter that has ever lived.

LHWchamp5
01-04-2006, 08:10 AM
Where does chuvalo fit into all of this??

moondog0
01-04-2006, 10:49 AM
Where does chuvalo fit into all of this??
I liked that comment that Ali had the shortest prime of all time, but he definately was in his prime when he beat Liston, who couldn't move any better than a petrified wooden rocking horse, and quit in his second fight by going down from the mystery punch, what a great fighter!

moondog0
01-04-2006, 10:52 AM
And also, Joe Louis could have beaten any fighter that ever lived, and was a patriotic american, something that was never forgotten about him.

Dempsey 1919
01-04-2006, 04:05 PM
LOL!

If somebody can't say Johnson was in his prime during the first couple of years of his title reign (when he routinely weighed around 205), when the hell was his prime?

I have footage of his fights against Burns and Jeffries (as well as others), and there's no way Johnson lost anything between those fights...In fact, I'm more impressed with his performance against Jeffries.

And Ali had a two fight & three month prime, is that what you're saying?

alright 205. but ali was still bigger than the guys johnson fought and faster than johnson as well.

also getting to what you said about ali's prime, he had a layoff. if that didn't occur, then his prime would have continued till probably about 1971.

Dempsey 1919
01-04-2006, 04:08 PM
Why compliment that stuff, man?

Not only is there at least a couple factually inaccurate statements in there, but his "imagine what Ali would do to them" statement is completely laughable...It's like me saying, "if a light hitting, 195 pounder like Karl Mildenberger can hurt Ali to the body with a hook, just imagine what a MUCH harder hitting & bigger Joe Louis could do to Ali."

Butterfly looks at one side and one side only with these fantasy fights (spins them to favour his lover), and his logic is nothing but complete crap!

mildenburger is a hw. ketchel is a middleweight and conn is a light hw. BIG DIFFERENCE! i don't look at one side man, i see it for what it is!

Dempsey 1919
01-04-2006, 04:10 PM
Whew! Sorry I haven't posted for a few pages, so I apologize if I touch on something already meantioned. I was at Lamaze classes with my wife for 3 1/2 hours.

I think that Butterfly did a decent job posting his retort, but it's clear that he spun the whole argument to look favorable for his favorite boxer of all time. If I'm not mistaken, Ali struggled in some of those matches listed above. Also, it seems as though Ali had the shortest "prime" career of any heavyweight champion when discussing situations where he struggled.

On a side note: in all fairness, Jeffries had close to 3 years off from the sport, as well as over 90 pounds to shed before his match with Jack Johnson. Were he not involved in some racial discrepencies, and had he stayed in the game, Johnson may never have beaten an athlete like Jeffries. This holds no relevence to the topic at hand, but it was a juicy bit of information I obtained from a Jeffries biographer. Oh yeah, Jack Johnson hovered around 205 in his prime. Ali was 210 when he was the true Butterfly in the ring. 5 pounds and 1 1/2 inches isn't enough to pass that off as Ali's route to victory. I do believe that Ali would beat Louis 2/2 times, but that doesn't mean that it wouldn't be tough for Ali either. Anything can happen in the ring.

I also believe that Yogi asked me a question somewhere along the line, but I didn't catch it. What did [you] want again?

ali was 212-213 in his prime. it was clear that he was better in 1967 than 1964. plus he hit harder and his punches were more accurate and he could take a punch better.

Dempsey 1919
01-04-2006, 04:12 PM
And also, Joe Louis could have beaten any fighter that ever lived, and was a patriotic american, something that was never forgotten about him.

many fighters IMO would beat joe louis, he is IMO a bit overrated.

Brassangel
01-04-2006, 05:20 PM
While there are probably a few fighters in history that could have beaten Joe Louis, the ones he had to face for twelve years as champion never got around to it. Anyone who holds a belt for that long while continuously defending it is hardly overrated.

Muhammad Ali's style would have suited him well here. It's not because he was so fast that Joe Louis couldn't hit him; that's rediculous to say that anyone was so fast that they couldn't get hit. If that were the case, he never would have gotten hit like he did. Training, preparation, or flat-footed. Ali's constant movement and his ability to disrupt a fighter's rhythm give him huge advantages over Joe Louis.

And yes, you usually look at things one-sided. You also fail to address the key points of other people's arguments; instead picking out one or two little items and attacking them. Even so, you are correct about Ali over Louis.

Dempsey 1919
01-04-2006, 05:25 PM
While there are probably a few fighters in history that could have beaten Joe Louis, the ones he had to face for twelve years as champion never got around to it. Anyone who holds a belt for that long while continuously defending it is hardly overrated. Muhammad Ali's style would have suited him well here. It's not because he was so fast that Joe Louis couldn't hit him; that's rediculous to say that anyone was so fast that they couldn't get hit. If that were the case, he never would have gotten hit like he did. Training, preparation, or flat-footed. Ali's constant movement and his ability to disrupt a fighter's rhythm give him huge advantages over Joe Louis.

i will point out that louis probably was the greatest of all time when he retired. so was jack johnson.

Oasis_Lad
01-04-2006, 05:59 PM
ali is and always will be the greatest

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c13/oasis_lad/6c921d59.jpg

Dempsey 1919
01-04-2006, 06:05 PM
ali is and always will be the greatest

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c13/oasis_lad/6c921d59.jpg

i like your avatar! good karma for you!

supaduck
01-04-2006, 06:17 PM
I like it too, so good karma for you both.

XionComrade
01-04-2006, 09:29 PM
Agreed, he was awesome. But Ali beat him the first time fair and square. Obviously moondog or whatever he's called doesn't watch boxing.

Actually in that fight wasn't Liston cheating? Didn't he wipe something on his gloves that messed with Ali's vission in the 4h? It started with a m...If it so, Sonny Liston may have been a great fighter but he is one hell of a ***** for that.

XionComrade
01-04-2006, 09:33 PM
Why compliment that stuff, man?

Not only is there at least a couple factually inaccurate statements in there, but his "imagine what Ali would do to them" statement is completely laughable...It's like me saying, "if a light hitting, 195 pounder like Karl Mildenberger can hurt Ali to the body with a hook, just imagine what a MUCH harder hitting & bigger Joe Louis could do to Ali."

Butterfly looks at one side and one side only with these fantasy fights (spins them to favour his lover), and his logic is nothing but complete crap!

Personally I think he puts way to much emphasis on weight...it makes him sound smart I guess, but it is still like 110% to much.

Yogi
01-04-2006, 10:36 PM
Personally I think he puts way to much emphasis on weight...it makes him sound smart I guess, but it is still like 110% to much.

He spins it any possible way to give Ali an edge, but yeah, weight seems to be one of his main "arguments", if you can call them that...Along those lines, I'll assume that he thinks Nicolay Valuev beats Ali and easily at that, considering Valuev weighs 100+ lbs more than fighters who proved capable of hurting Ali (Cooper, Frazier, Mildenberger, Shavers, etc.).

Yaman
01-05-2006, 09:35 AM
Ali and Louis were were two of the greatest human beings ever.
But..Joe Louis is still greater in the ring.

Dempsey 1919
01-05-2006, 01:49 PM
Ali and Louis were were two of the greatest human beings ever.
But..Joe Louis is still greater in the ring.

yeah, by beating small white guys lol!

Dempsey 1919
01-05-2006, 01:50 PM
He spins it any possible way to give Ali an edge, but yeah, weight seems to be one of his main "arguments", if you can call them that...Along those lines, I'll assume that he thinks Nicolay Valuev beats Ali and easily at that, considering Valuev weighs 100+ lbs more than fighters who proved capable of hurting Ali (Cooper, Frazier, Mildenberger, Shavers, etc.).

who put salt in your coffee?

Yaman
01-05-2006, 02:53 PM
yeah, by beating small white guys lol!

Joe Louis beat QUALITY opponents and ducked no one, unlike Ali pretending to have cold feet against what's his name?

Dempsey 1919
01-05-2006, 03:00 PM
Joe Louis beat QUALITY opponents and ducked no one, unlike Ali pretending to have cold feet against what's his name?

yeah, so much quality. braddock was top notch, so was abe simon and nova, great fighters definetely. :D however, foreman, frazier, and liston were just a bunch of bumbs lol! :D

Yaman
01-05-2006, 03:07 PM
lol you duck just like your man Ali :o .
You can't face the truth about him being intiminated. Cold feet haha.

Dempsey 1919
01-05-2006, 03:11 PM
lol you duck just like your man Ali :o .
You can't face the truth about him being intiminated. Cold feet haha.

i wouldn't blame him, cause he was showing some signs of parkinson's (even though i still don't believe that's true). unlike louis who padded his record in his prime.

Yogi
01-05-2006, 04:32 PM
unlike louis who padded his record in his prime.

I still can't believe there are those who take that "Bum of the Month" nickname seriously...

Do some research Butterfly and you shall find that more than half of Louis' title defenses came against fighters who were ranked as one of the three best Heavyweight contenders at the time they face Louis (Farr #2 contender, Mann #3, Schmeling #1, Galento #1, Pastor #2, Godoy x2 #2, Burman #3, Conn #1 both times, Mauriello #1, Walcott #2 & #1, etc., etc.)

Padded record, my ass...Louis faced the best that was around during his time.

Dempsey 1919
01-05-2006, 04:35 PM
I still can't believe there are those who take that "Bum of the Month" nickname seriously...

Do some research Butterfly and you shall find that more than half of Louis' title defenses came against fighters who were ranked as one of the three best Heavyweight contenders at the time they face Louis (Farr #2 contender, Mann #3, Schmeling #1, Galento #1, Pastor #2, Godoy x2 #2, Burman #3, Conn #1 both times, Mauriello #1, Walcott #2 & #1, etc., etc.)

Padded record, my ass...Louis faced the best that was around during his time.

alright, i'll give you that one, but who faced better competition during their careers, louis or ali?

Yogi
01-05-2006, 04:40 PM
(even though i still don't believe that's true)

Hmm, I wonder who I'd be more prone to believe...

Some young 18 year-old teenager, who happens to be a Ali fanatic of unhealthy proportions?

Or...

The MSG Matchmaker/President by the name of Teddy Brenner, who originally put the whole Ali/Bobick fight together?

That's a toughie! :confused:

Dempsey 1919
01-05-2006, 04:41 PM
Hmm, I wonder who I'd be more prone to believe...

Some young 18 year-old teenager, who happens to be a Ali fanatic of unhealthy proportions?

Or...

The MSG Matchmaker/President by the name of Teddy Brenner, who originally put the whole Ali/Bobick fight together?

That's a toughie! :confused:

i'm 17.

that doesn't mean he was scared to fight him.

Yogi
01-05-2006, 04:48 PM
i'm 17.

that doesn't mean he was scared to fight him.

I rounded off your age, Butterfly, seeing as you listed your birthday as Jan 24 or something like that.

Now I not saying this to be an ass, but as a boxing fan who seems to have a curiousity about boxing history, you really should read Brenner's book ("Only The Ring Was Square"), and not just for that whole Ali/Bobick story...The book isn't very long, but it is jammed full with a LOT of really good insider stories regarding many of the greatest fighters from the 50's to the 70's (the book came out in about 1981 or so).

I've read a whole bunch of boxing books, Butterfly, and believe me when I tell you it's one of the very best books I've read in regards to boxing/insider info not found anywhere else, and whatnot.

Dempsey 1919
01-05-2006, 04:51 PM
I rounded off your age, Butterfly, seeing as you listed your birthday as Jan 24 or something like that.

Now I not saying this to be an ass, but as a boxing fan who seems to have a curiousity about boxing history, you really should read Brenner's book ("Only The Ring Was Square"), and not just for that whole Ali/Bobick story...The book isn't very long, but it is jammed full with a LOT of really good insider stories regarding many of the greatest fighters from the 50's to the 70's (the book came out in about 1981 or so).

I've read a whole bunch of boxing books, Butterfly, and believe me when I tell you it's one of the very best books I've read in regards to boxing/insider info not found anywhere else, and whatnot.

maybe i'll take you up on that.

Yogi
01-05-2006, 04:54 PM
maybe i'll take you up on that.

Books are awesome, Butterfly, especially books that cover and deal with the great history of this sport we all love...I hope you do take the opportunity to read it some day soon (that goes for any boxing fan, actually).

Dempsey 1919
01-05-2006, 05:04 PM
Books are awesome, Butterfly, especially books that cover and deal with the great history of this sport we all love...I hope you do take the opportunity to read it some day soon (that goes for any boxing fan, actually).

i read alot of books on muhammad ali. i also read frazier's autobiography.

Yogi
01-05-2006, 05:15 PM
i read alot of books on muhammad ali. i also read frazier's autobiography.

Same here.

What Ali books have you read, Butterfly?

Off the top of my head, these are the ones I read in my lifetime and I'm assuming you've read most of them;

The Greatest: My Own Story
Sting Like a Bee (by Jose Toress)
Life and Times
The Fight (by Norman Mailer)
Shadow Box (By Plimpton, which is mostly an Ali book)
Facing Ali

Umm...probably one or two other ones, as well, but you'll have to forgive my memory as it's been some time since I did serious reading on Ali in a book that's mostly devoted to him. Well, I also read a book about the Thrilla a couple of years ago, but it was mainly one big fight report with a few chapters related to Ali & Frazier's relationship...All stuff that I've seen and read before on multiple occasions.

Brassangel
01-05-2006, 05:39 PM
There's also a decent one just called, "Muhammad Ali" that has loads of photography in it; in case you're a little text-tired.

Joe Louis faced whoever the top contenders were at any given time. I don't care what era a fighter lives in, the top contenders are tough boxers. Ali faced a handful of big names and a slew of bums. Just because the names of Liston, Frazier, and Foreman are at the top of most top 10 lists doesn't mean that Ali's entire career was perpetually matched against top-notch opponents. Again, we need to avoid looking at one side of the pie here.

Dempsey 1919
01-05-2006, 07:45 PM
There's also a decent one just called, "Muhammad Ali" that has loads of photography in it; in case you're a little text-tired.

Joe Louis faced whoever the top contenders were at any given time. I don't care what era a fighter lives in, the top contenders are tough boxers. Ali faced a handful of big names and a slew of bums. Just because the names of Liston, Frazier, and Foreman are at the top of most top 10 lists doesn't mean that Ali's entire career was perpetually matched against top-notch opponents. Again, we need to avoid looking at one side of the pie here.

yeah, i read that one.

Dempsey 1919
01-05-2006, 07:47 PM
Same here.

What Ali books have you read, Butterfly?

Off the top of my head, these are the ones I read in my lifetime and I'm assuming you've read most of them;

The Greatest: My Own Story
Sting Like a Bee (by Jose Toress)
Life and Times
The Fight (by Norman Mailer)
Shadow Box (By Plimpton, which is mostly an Ali book)
Facing Ali

Umm...probably one or two other ones, as well, but you'll have to forgive my memory as it's been some time since I did serious reading on Ali in a book that's mostly devoted to him. Well, I also read a book about the Thrilla a couple of years ago, but it was mainly one big fight report with a few chapters related to Ali & Frazier's relationship...All stuff that I've seen and read before on multiple occasions.

out of those you mentioned i read the greatest: my own story, and facing ali.(great book)

Heckler
01-05-2006, 10:46 PM
I think Ali was a great fighter, but the only fighter that was any good that he beat was Foreman. And he just outsmarted him, but beat him fair and square, Frazier was small, slow and had one punch, Norton beat Ali in every one of his three fights, get the trilogy and watch it, Sonny Liston was a convict
that never had one boxing lesson in his life, a media hype!

Norton beat Ali in 2/3 fights for sure. Ali beat FOREMAN - heaviest hitter of all time that No-1 at the exception of Ali in boxing history would ever beat. Frazier was extremely determined, had the ability to soak up punishment, good head and body movement, stamina and could throw bombs. Liston has boxing lessons inside, developed excellent BOXING not just slugging skills and was incredibly powerful. Learn a little before you start shooting your mouth.

Heckler
01-05-2006, 10:51 PM
many fighters IMO would beat joe louis, he is IMO a bit overrated.

Many fighters would beat Joe louis - ummm no. I believe Joe would give Ali some serious trouble with his jab and power combos. However Ali win would because Joe was too conventional, and his shuffling inadequate footwork would be his downfall. Against Alis wit, resourcefulness, and fluid foot movement i think Joe would be a tad bewildered. Ali had superior stamina, a better jaw and i think over 15 rounds he would be able to reach down and pull out the extra to take the win in a close, extremely messy fight.

Heckler
01-05-2006, 10:53 PM
Joe Louis was a technically brilliant fighter who beat many a good opponent. You cannot take that away from him, awesome power, skill and he had heart. Butterfly read about Louis before you make such a foolish judgement... against ali he would be NO pushover and out of 5 fights its not ridiculous to suggest he would win atleast 1 if not 2.

Dempsey 1919
01-06-2006, 02:07 AM
Joe Louis was a technically brilliant fighter who beat many a good opponent. You cannot take that away from him, awesome power, skill and he had heart. Butterfly read about Louis before you make such a foolish judgement... against ali he would be NO pushover and out of 5 fights its not ridiculous to suggest he would win atleast 1 if not 2.

i believe ali, liston, holmes, foreman, frazier, and tyson would beat louis. johnson would make it a close fight.

Heckler
01-06-2006, 07:47 AM
i believe ali, liston, holmes, foreman, frazier, and tyson would beat louis. johnson would make it a close fight.

Well your wrong... Liston was too slow to contend with the likes of Joe Louis, Liston would prod forward as always and have the **** counter-punched out of him. Frazier couldn't contend with Joe's technically brilliant, rapid combos, they would be overwhelming because he wouldn't have the handspeed to counter. Tyson? TYSON? are you crazy, LOUIS could box... if buster douglas, a mediocre boxer at best could use 'stick and move' to beat tyson what do you think Louis would do to him. Johnson, possibly. Holmes possibly if he could avoid the power punching. Joe Louis had many weapons in his arsenal that he executed with textbook form and with speed... i dont think you realise HOW GOOD HE WAS... please read up on him, watch some fights and you will realise.

Dempsey 1919
01-06-2006, 11:50 AM
Well your wrong... Liston was too slow to contend with the likes of Joe Louis, Liston would prod forward as always and have the **** counter-punched out of him. Frazier couldn't contend with Joe's technically brilliant, rapid combos, they would be overwhelming because he wouldn't have the handspeed to counter. Tyson? TYSON? are you crazy, LOUIS could box... if buster douglas, a mediocre boxer at best could use 'stick and move' to beat tyson what do you think Louis would do to him. Johnson, possibly. Holmes possibly if he could avoid the power punching. Joe Louis had many weapons in his arsenal that he executed with textbook form and with speed... i dont think you realise HOW GOOD HE WAS... please read up on him, watch some fights and you will realise.

ali would beat him cause ali is very fast, and has a granite chin, and he is bigger and physically stronger than louis, louis might get some good shots, but like i said before, ali has a strong chin, so not much would happen. that left jab would be all that louis sees. ali would ko louis in the 7th.

liston is not as slow as you are making him out to be. i have learned over the years that you don't judge a fighter on one or two fights. it's obvious you are basing liston's entire career on the two ali fights, when he had others. liston has a very fast jab that even a fairly fast fighter couldn't avoid for long. he is way bigger and stronger than louis, plus add in the fact that louis' chin isn't that great, and you've got louis on the canvas counted out by the third round.

holmes beats louis cause again, holmes is a mover, and louis always had trouble with movers, the only reason why louis didn't lose to one was because they were too small, but holmes is big and has a strong chin, not to mention he has a fast and fairly powerful left jab, so louis would lose by stoppage in the thirteenth round.

foreman would rip louis head off, no doubt about that. foreman is bigger than louis as well, also foreman chin is probably the 2nd or third strongest in history, so none of louis punches would bother him, period. foreman has the hardest punch in history as well, and louis was floored by a light hw in conn, so replace conn with foreman and see what happens now? foreman wins by a 2nd round ko.

frazier would beat louis as well. frazier wouldn't need the ability to counter because he has a granite chin as well, so all frazier has to do is hit to the body, get in a few philadelphia left hooks, and louis would be hurt. again, louis has a weak chin, so frazier would mall louis like his other opponents who weighed more and had more chin than louis. frazier wins by a fifth round ko.

tyson would overwhelm louis cause of his speed. i'm not talking about the tyson that didn't care anymore, i'm talking about prime iron mike. the guy weighed like 220lb. to louis' 195. tyson is faster than louis, hits harder than louis and gets inside with ease. tyson gets louis late in the second round.

Brassangel
01-06-2006, 04:29 PM
butterfly1964
ali would beat him cause ali is very fast, and has a granite chin, and he is bigger and physically stronger than louis, louis might get some good shots, but like i said before, ali has a strong chin, so not much would happen. that left jab would be all that louis sees. ali would ko louis in the 7th.

liston is not as slow as you are making him out to be. i have learned over the years that you don't judge a fighter on one or two fights. it's obvious you are basing liston's entire career on the two ali fights, when he had others. liston has a very fast jab that even a fairly fast fighter couldn't avoid for long. he is way bigger and stronger than louis, plus add in the fact that louis' chin isn't that great, and you've got louis on the canvas counted out by the third round.

holmes beats louis cause again, holmes is a mover, and louis always had trouble with movers, the only reason why louis didn't lose to one was because they were too small, but holmes is big and has a strong chin, not to mention he has a fast and fairly powerful left jab, so louis would lose by stoppage in the thirteenth round.

foreman would rip louis head off, no doubt about that. foreman is bigger than louis as well, also foreman chin is probably the 2nd or third strongest in history, so none of louis punches would bother him, period. foreman has the hardest punch in history as well, and louis was floored by a light hw in conn, so replace conn with foreman and see what happens now? foreman wins by a 2nd round ko.

frazier would beat louis as well. frazier wouldn't need the ability to counter because he has a granite chin as well, so all frazier has to do is hit to the body, get in a few philadelphia left hooks, and louis would be hurt. again, louis has a weak chin, so frazier would mall louis like his other opponents who weighed more and had more chin than louis. frazier wins by a fifth round ko.

tyson would overwhelm louis cause of his speed. i'm not talking about the tyson that didn't care anymore, i'm talking about prime iron mike. the guy weighed like 220lb. to louis' 195. tyson is faster than louis, hits harder than louis and gets inside with ease. tyson gets louis late in the second round.

I agree with most of these statements, so I will concur the following:

Frazier and Louis would probably be a decent match, as both have a lot of heart. Louis's boxing brain would give him a tactical edge against Smokin' Joe, but Frazier's double-up hooks to the body and head would likely rock the weak-chinned Louis.

Ali would beat Louis twice in a row, and that would be that. Joe Louis usually took awhile to gain momentum in a fight, and Ali would control the fight from early on, making it difficult for Joe to come back.

Holmes would annihilate Louis, as his style was similar to Ali's, while a little slower, but with greater power. Holmes also had a remarkable chin that only really got ko'd late in his career by the following man...

Tyson. Mike would make Louis look pretty silly. Give him almost 20 pounds over an opponent, plus more power, plus more speed...this one's ugly folks. Buster Douglas is never a valid argument against anything in Tyson's career except his heart which had long since given out by that time. We're talking the buzzsaw Mike, with Cus/Rooney. Douglas could have taken on nearly anybody that night in Tokyo.

Foreman would make things pretty tough for Joe. Louis had a great boxing brain, but I can't see him putting up with Big George for too many rounds. If an old James Braddock knocked Louis down during his prime, Foreman would put Louis out pretty early.

Liston was not always slow. He did stalk his opponents, much like the power fighters of old, but his reach was enormous. This one could be a good fight, simply because Louis was intelligent in the ring, and Liston wasn't one to parlay with smart fighters. On the whole, I think Sonny eventually ko's him, though less brutally than he did Patterson.

Do I think that any of these fighters are better champions than Joe Louis? No. The Brown Bomber held the belt for nearly 12 years; that's incredible. He defended it a zillion times and only lost it because age finally caught up to him. Joe Louis is one of the best champions in heavyweight history, but he would have incredible difficulty against the heavier, faster, and stronger fighters of later eras.

hellfire508
01-06-2006, 10:17 PM
Joe Louis is the 2nd best heavyweight in history IMO, and I don't usually argue when people rank him number 1. If someone ranks him below 2, then I argue. He was amazing.

The only fighter I would pick to beat him on his best night is a prime Ali. A prime Foreman would have a great shot, though I would still favour Louis. Holmes would have a chance too, though I think Louis' power would be too much for him.

Ali vs Louis - The one match I would pick to happen if I could make one happen.

hellfire508
01-06-2006, 10:19 PM
Dempsey, Marciano and Frazier would also have a great chance against Louis, though I would still favour Joe. Pressure was something Louis didn't like, though he could handle it. Frazier would probably have the best chance against Louis out of those three.

Dempsey 1919
01-07-2006, 08:09 PM
Dempsey, Marciano and Frazier would also have a great chance against Louis, though I would still favour Joe. Pressure was something Louis didn't like, though he could handle it. Frazier would probably have the best chance against Louis out of those three.

frazier definetely beats louis, but dempsey and marciano are swarmers, and louis is a slugger. it is a known fact that sluggers do well against swarmers, so louis beats dempsey in 8, and marciano in 6. frazier is a swarmer as well, but he dwarfs louis in body size, and would overwhelm louis.

now the best matchup i see against louis is jack johnson. both are fast, great defense, about the same height and weight, the same chin. so this would be a great fight. however, punching power goes to louis by a close margin, and since louis fought more evolved fighters than johnson, then louis' defense would be a little better, so louis would probably win by a 13th round ko after a very close fight.

Yogi
01-07-2006, 08:26 PM
frazier is a swarmer as well, but he dwarfs louis in body size, and would overwhelm louis.

Frazier "dwarfs" Louis?

Frazier: 5'11 & about 205 lbs at his best.
Louis: 6'2 & about 200-205 lbs at his best.

Yaman
01-07-2006, 08:38 PM
Joe Louis could have beaten anyone of the fighters you say would beat him. Ali too, He could beat him..all of them.

Dempsey 1919
01-07-2006, 08:44 PM
Frazier "dwarfs" Louis?

Frazier: 5'11 & about 205 lbs at his best.
Louis: 6'2 & about 200-205 lbs at his best.

frazier was 205-210 at best, and louis was 193-198 at best. frazier pounded 240+lb. men in his career, so louis wouldn't present much of a problem to him.

Dempsey 1919
01-07-2006, 08:46 PM
Joe Louis could have beaten anyone of the fighters you say would beat him. Ali too, He could beat him..all of them.

i've already explained why he would beat all those fighters, so i won't repeat them, just look at the posts. louis has no chance against those men, it's a no brainer.

Heckler
01-07-2006, 09:07 PM
i've already explained why he would beat all those fighters, so i won't repeat them, just look at the posts. louis has no chance against those men, it's a no brainer.

Frazier would be beaten by Louis. Without a doubt. He may have been able to swarm into Ali, but with Louis's power and technical ability... hes gone.

Dempsey 1919
01-07-2006, 09:11 PM
Frazier would be beaten by Louis. Without a doubt. He may have been able to swarm into Ali, but with Louis's power and technical ability... hes gone.

yeah, sure he would. the ali that fought frazier in '71 was still faster than a prime louis, and bigger and way stronger, but louis would beat frazier. :rolleyes: frazier on that night would crush louis in maybe 4 rounds, louis wouldn't know how to handle frazier's speed, power, ability to cut off the ring, stamina, body shots, and his famous philadelphia left hook.

Soliloquy
01-07-2006, 09:12 PM
yeah, sure he would. the ali that fought frazier in '71 was still faster than a prime louis, and bigger and way stronger, but louis would beat frazier. :rolleyes: frazier on that night would crush louis in maybe 4 rounds, louis wouldn't know how to handle frazier's speed, power, ability to cut off the ring, stamina, body shots, and his famous philadelphia left hook.
i don't think you realize just how many flaws Ali had?

Dempsey 1919
01-07-2006, 09:14 PM
i don't think you realize just how many flaws Ali had?

i know he had flaws, but in his prime, it didn't matter.

Heckler
01-07-2006, 09:14 PM
Every sportswriter in existence would be on the ground laughing at this ****. Tyson, irrespective of ANY time in his career is a one trick pony, with a poor mentality. Louis would stick and move, he would give him a boxing lesson. Following Tyson not being able to knock Louis out in the first few rounds he would become frustrated, become sloppy then Joe would drop him. Joe KO 8. NONE of these men could push over the brown bomber and its ridiculous that you would imply this. Frazier would be totally outclassed and KTFO. Styles make fights and fraziers style does not do well against Joe's. Ali could wobble, AND HE DID Frazier on the way in, Louis would drop him.

Yogi
01-07-2006, 09:16 PM
frazier was 205-210 at best, and louis was 193-198 at best. frazier pounded 240+lb. men in his career, so louis wouldn't present much of a problem to him.

Louis wasn't at his best at 193, man!

Come one, Butterfly...you're twisting again.

Ask anybody who has seen a number of fights of Louis' and they'd tell one of, if not the most impressive performances of his was when he destroyed Buddy Baer in their rematch...Louis weighed around 205 for that fight, if not a little more. Some of Louis' other best performances against the likes of Max Baer, Schmeling, Abe Simon II, Godoy II, etc., all seen him weighing in quite a bit more than only 193 lbs.

Now, ask a bunch of Frazier fans what they thought were his three best performances in his career, and there'll be more than a few who'd tell you that it was against Ellis, Chuvalo, & Ali, and in all of those fights he weighed right around the 205 lbs mark, give or take a pound.

And your "Frazier pounded 240+ men in his career" comment is meant to say what again?

You want to argue each fighter's success against much larger men?

Probably wouldn't be such a good idea on your part, because Louis absolutely dominated a few 240/250+ lbs men in fights (Buddy Baer, Abe Simon, Primo Carnera), compared to Frazier somewhat struggling with the only 240+ pound fighter he met in Buster Mathis.

Heckler
01-07-2006, 09:17 PM
yeah, sure he would. the ali that fought frazier in '71 was still faster than a prime louis, and bigger and way stronger, but louis would beat frazier. :rolleyes: frazier on that night would crush louis in maybe 4 rounds, louis wouldn't know how to handle frazier's speed, power, ability to cut off the ring, stamina, body shots, and his famous philadelphia left hook.

Sure he would know how to handle him. Because Frazier would not be able to bully Louis around. Louis has incredible punching power and was better at executing it then frazier, frazier had a GOOD chin but not good enough for a Louis power punch.

Dempsey 1919
01-07-2006, 09:19 PM
Frazier somewhat struggling with the only 240+ pound fighter he met in Buster Mathis.

he destroyed mathis. frazier's a slow starter, so he lost like the first two rounds, but he destroyed him sfter that. mathis was barely holding on by like the fifth round.

Dempsey 1919
01-07-2006, 09:21 PM
Sure he would know how to handle him. Because Frazier would not be able to bully Louis around. Louis has incredible punching power and was better at executing it then frazier, frazier had a GOOD chin but not good enough for a Louis power punch.

louis is not fast enough to avoid frazier, plus he has a glass chin, so frazier would continuely rock louis' head and body over and over again until he falls.

Yogi
01-07-2006, 10:23 PM
louis is not fast enough to avoid frazier, plus he has a glass chin

What is the basis for this "glass chin", Butterfly?

It just seems to me that a fighter who supposedly had a "glass chin" wouldn't nearly have been Heavyweight champion of the world for 12 straight years, and would also have a lot more than just two stoggage losses in 70+ fights (one of those at the very, very end of his career, as well).

Louis suffered a few flash knockdowns at the hands of some pretty good hitters (like Galento, Braddock, and Buddy Baer), but besides his fights with Schmeling and Marciano (and I guess a few moments during the 12th round of Conn I), I really haven't seen him in a whole lot of trouble.

Have you ever seen Louis' fight with Max Baer, whose often called one of the very hardest hitters in Heavyweight history? Well, if you did you'd see Baer hit Louis flush on the jaw a few times with his right hand, only to see Louis take the punch without damage and come back to tattoe Max right after (there's a good sequence at the end of the first that illustrates this).

You'll say Louis has a "glass chin", but I would bet you'd call Frazier's chin "granite" or something close to that, yes?

Personally, even though Frazier might have the slightest edge in that dept, I really don't see much of a difference there (Frazier had a good chin, but he was rocked PLENTY of times during his career...Stander, Foster, Ramos, Ali, Foreman, Bonavena, Quarry, etc.).

Dempsey1238
01-07-2006, 10:27 PM
I would not call Louis's chin GLASS, I call it good.

Sure its not up there with Ali or Fraizer, or Marciano.

But he will not be ko with one shot, it will have to be a beating OVER a Series of rounds to knockout Louis.

Schmling landed, I dont know how many right hands, in that fight, but he beat Louis over the course of 12 rounds, to put Louis down.

I put him on the level of Tito imo.

Dempsey 1919
01-08-2006, 12:00 AM
What is the basis for this "glass chin", Butterfly?

It just seems to me that a fighter who supposedly had a "glass chin" wouldn't nearly have been Heavyweight champion of the world for 12 straight years, and would also have a lot more than just two stoggage losses in 70+ fights (one of those at the very, very end of his career, as well).

Louis suffered a few flash knockdowns at the hands of some pretty good hitters (like Galento, Braddock, and Buddy Baer), but besides his fights with Schmeling and Marciano (and I guess a few moments during the 12th round of Conn I), I really haven't seen him in a whole lot of trouble.

Have you ever seen Louis' fight with Max Baer, whose often called one of the very hardest hitters in Heavyweight history? Well, if you did you'd see Baer hit Louis flush on the jaw a few times with his right hand, only to see Louis take the punch without damage and come back to tattoe Max right after (there's a good sequence at the end of the first that illustrates this).

You'll say Louis has a "glass chin", but I would bet you'd call Frazier's chin "granite" or something close to that, yes?

Personally, even though Frazier might have the slightest edge in that dept, I really don't see much of a difference there (Frazier had a good chin, but he was rocked PLENTY of times during his career...Stander, Foster, Ramos, Ali, Foreman, Bonavena, Quarry, etc.).

billy conn floored louis, a light hw. so replace conn with frazier in that situation, and see what happens.

Yogi
01-08-2006, 12:10 AM
billy conn floored louis

Oh really?

And what round did Conn allegedly floor Louis in, Butterfly?

I'm only asking because when I watch that fight, I cannot find one occasion where "Conn floored Louis" in it.

Heckler
01-08-2006, 12:48 AM
Very good Yogi. Styles make fights... and frazier swarming into Louis would be suicide.

Heckler
01-08-2006, 12:50 AM
Butterfly do you legitimately believe that Frazier could do this, or is it because Frazier was an opponent of Ali and because of this you cannot say anything negative about him, or point out faults for in your mind it takes something away from Ali?

Yogi
01-08-2006, 05:07 AM
Ask anybody who has seen a number of fights of Louis' and they'd tell one of, if not the most impressive performances of his was when he destroyed Buddy Baer in their rematch...Louis weighed around 205 for that fight, if not a little more.

Let's narrow that question down and ask only one person what they thought of a 206 1/2 lbs Joe Louis' performance against Buddy Baer, shall we?

Oh, and I think we can all agree that this gentleman knew JUST a little bit about the sport of boxing during that time;

"Not even in the second fight with Max Schmeling did the Dark Destroyer show as much as he did against Buddy. Joe had everything. He was magnificent. He was a whirlwind on attack, a master of defense, a terror with his devastating punches." - Nat Fleischer (Mar 1942 issue of The Ring)

Gavilan1
01-08-2006, 06:50 AM
Yogi, did you get that quote from Beyond the Glory: Joe Louis and Max Schmeling?

Yogi
01-08-2006, 06:04 PM
Yogi, did you get that quote from Beyond the Glory: Joe Louis and Max Schmeling?

Nope, I actually got that quote from Monte's site.

Dempsey 1919
01-08-2006, 08:22 PM
Oh really?

And what round did Conn allegedly floor Louis in, Butterfly?

I'm only asking because when I watch that fight, I cannot find one occasion where "Conn floored Louis" in it.

they fought twice didn't they?

Dempsey1238
01-08-2006, 09:31 PM
Louis and Conn fought 2 times.

Conn NEVER floor Louis in either bout.

I seen both fights.

Dempsey 1919
01-08-2006, 09:34 PM
Louis and Conn fought 2 times.

Conn NEVER floor Louis in either bout.

I seen both fights.

well, i remember some little guy flooring louis with one punch.

Dempsey1238
01-08-2006, 09:49 PM
The guys that floor Louis.

Schmeling 2 times. Wins by knockout first match.
Braddock 1 time, Louis wins title.
Galento drop Louis one time.
Buddy Baer, drops Louis once.
Walcott Drops Louis 3 times in 2 fights.
Marciano drops Louis 2 times.

I have SEEN ALL these knockdowns lol. From either full fights, or highlights.

The only times Louis was Hurt was when Marciano drop him and finshing him, and the Schmeling bout.

The others had there FLASH knockdowns over Louis, in which Louis would rise and crush em, outside of Walcott in the first fight.

Louis was only down ten times, and 1 onces for a ten count(Schmling).

The ref did not bother to count with Marciano.

Dempsey 1919
01-08-2006, 11:51 PM
The guys that floor Louis.

Schmeling 2 times. Wins by knockout first match.
Braddock 1 time, Louis wins title.
Galento drop Louis one time.
Buddy Baer, drops Louis once.
Walcott Drops Louis 3 times in 2 fights.
Marciano drops Louis 2 times.

I have SEEN ALL these knockdowns lol. From either full fights, or highlights.

The only times Louis was Hurt was when Marciano drop him and finshing him, and the Schmeling bout.

The others had there FLASH knockdowns over Louis, in which Louis would rise and crush em, outside of Walcott in the first fight.

Louis was only down ten times, and 1 onces for a ten count(Schmling).

The ref did not bother to count with Marciano.

so if all those fighters could drop louis, then a big puncher would have crushed him!

Dempsey1238
01-09-2006, 12:00 AM
most of em were big punchers like Schmling, Baer, and Walcott,

And 2 Ton Toney could hit hard 2.

Dempsey 1919
01-09-2006, 12:29 AM
most of em were big punchers like Schmling, Baer, and Walcott,

And 2 Ton Toney could hit hard 2.

walcott is not by any means a big puncher, maybe good power for his size but that's it. schmeling does not punch harder than frazier, foreman, liston, tyson, lewis, bowe, norton, williams, quarry, chuvalo, shavers, lyle, or even dempsey or marciano; neither does baer.

Dempsey1238
01-09-2006, 12:36 AM
your kidding about Baer right? He has a 79 percent ko rate, he is 50-7 with 45 knockouts. That is pretty high.

Walcott was a hot and cold fighter.

And Max Schmling has 56 wins, with 39 by knockout.


Schmling range in the 50 percent range, BUT he was more of a counter puncher. His right hand bomb is right up there with some of the best rights EVER.

Dempsey 1919
01-09-2006, 12:45 AM
your kidding about Baer right? He has a 79 percent ko rate, he is 50-7 with 45 knockouts. That is pretty high.

Walcott was a hot and cold fighter.

And Max Schmling has 56 wins, with 39 by knockout.


Schmling range in the 50 percent range, BUT he was more of a counter puncher. His right hand bomb is right up there with some of the best rights EVER.

yeah, but who did baer fight? small white guys like himself who had weak chins, he didn't fight the same calibur competition that ali did or frazier, foreman, or even liston.

Yogi
01-09-2006, 05:26 AM
small white guys like himself

Uh, Butterfly...Buddy Baer was a little over 6'6" and weighed in the 240-250 lbs range.

Heckler
01-09-2006, 06:10 AM
Really butterfly watch more footage, talk to more people and stop making uninformed judgements on fighters.

Dempsey 1919
01-09-2006, 11:10 AM
Uh, Butterfly...Buddy Baer was a little over 6'6" and weighed in the 240-250 lbs range.

and so what does that mean. did you ever hear the saying,"the bigger they are the harder they fall" hahaha!!

Yogi
01-09-2006, 11:39 AM
and so what does that mean. did you ever hear the saying,"the bigger they are the harder they fall" hahaha!!

LOL! :D

Ya' idiot! :p

Anyways, regarding your "then a big puncher would've crushed him" comment about Louis earlier in the thread, check out this top ten ranking of the hardest p4p punchers in history, which was originally printed in the Apr 1993 issue of Boxing Illustrated;

1. Jimmy Wilde
2. MAX BAER
3. Bob Fitzsimmons
4. George Chaney
5. Charles Ledoux
6. Bob Satterfield
7. Earnie Shavers
8. Joe Louis
9. Jack Dempsey
10. Sandy Saddler

Take note of who they rank as #2, Butterfly!

Max Baer also finished #22 all-time in The Ring's 2003 ranking of "The 100 Greatest Punchers of All-time" (not just the hardest, as other factors were taken into consideration), which would mean he was the 7th or 8th greatest puncher in Heavyweight history in The Ring's opinion.

Max Baer was a big puncher, Butterfly, whose power in his right hand was comparable to ANY Heavyweight in history...Louis took Baer's right hand just fine, thank you very much, so that comment of yours is totally without logic & reasoning.

Dempsey 1919
01-09-2006, 11:47 AM
LOL! :D

Ya' idiot! :p

Anyways, regarding your "then a big puncher would've crushed him" comment about Louis earlier in the thread, check out this top ten ranking of the hardest p4p punchers in history, which was originally printed in the Apr 1993 issue of Boxing Illustrated;

1. Jimmy Wilde
2. MAX BAER
3. Bob Fitzsimmons
4. George Chaney
5. Charles Ledoux
6. Bob Satterfield
7. Earnie Shavers
8. Joe Louis
9. Jack Dempsey
10. Sandy Saddler

Take note of who they rank as #2, Butterfly!

Max Baer also finished #22 all-time in The Ring's 2003 ranking of "The 100 Greatest Punchers of All-time" (not just the hardest, as other factors were taken into consideration), which would mean he was the 7th or 8th greatest puncher in Heavyweight history in The Ring's opinion.

Max Baer was a big puncher, Butterfly, whose power in his right hand was comparable to ANY Heavyweight in history...Louis took Baer's right hand just fine, thank you very much, so that comment of yours is totally without logic & reasoning.

but look who probably made up that list,...white people, so of course their gonna praise whites.

Yogi
01-09-2006, 12:54 PM
but look who probably made up that list,...white people, so of course their gonna praise whites.

Huh? :confused:

I know who made those lists...Boxing writers/historians, who did nothing but praise who they thought were some of the hardest/greatest punchers in history.

Dempsey 1919
01-09-2006, 01:10 PM
Huh? :confused:

I know who made those lists...Boxing writers/historians, who did nothing but praise who they thought were some of the hardest/greatest punchers in history.

and they were white obviously. they put baer above louis for god sakes. they must be partial to white fighters.

Yogi
01-09-2006, 01:52 PM
and they were white obviously. they put baer above louis for god sakes. they must be partial to white fighters.

In terms of pure punching power, what is so wrong with putting Baer above Louis?

You make it sound like they're committing a outrageous sin or something, man.

Sure, Louis had the quicker, much better delivery, and much more accurate power punches than did Baer. But I wouldn't neccessarily say that Louis hits with more pure power when each of them lands their best/hardest shots.

Say what you want about Baer's overall boxing talent, but when you watch him fight, I think it's pretty obvious that the guy could outright BOMB with that right hand of his. When he threw it with intent on destruction, he put all of his weight into it with the hopes of sending his opponeny clear out ot the venue. It was wild, yes, but it was also damn powerful and could do major ****ing damage if it landed...Ask Frankie Campbell or Ernie Schaaf about that whenever you make it up to the heavens and I'm sure they'd tell you.

Dempsey 1919
01-09-2006, 01:55 PM
In terms of pure punching power, what is so wrong with putting Baer above Louis?

You make it sound like they're committing a outrageous sin or something, man.

Sure, Louis had the quicker, much better delivery, and much more accurate power punches than did Baer. But I wouldn't neccessarily say that Louis hits with more pure power when each of them lands their best/hardest shots.

Say what you want about Baer's overall boxing talent, but when you watch him fight, I think it's pretty obvious that the guy could outright BOMB with that right hand of his. When he threw it with intent on destruction, he put all of his weight into it with the hopes of sending his opponeny clear out ot the venue. It was wild, yes, but it was also damn powerful and could do major ****ing damage if it landed...Ask Frankie Campbell or Ernie Schaaf about that whenever you make it up to the heavens and I'm sure they'd tell you.

all i'm saying is that baer couldn't go toe to toe with people like foreman, frazier, liston, ali, chuvalo, norton, or even dempsey or marciano.

Dempsey1238
01-09-2006, 02:36 PM
Fraizer and Foreman never killed a few people in the ring either.

Will Schaaf was almost beating to death, than died in his next match, as because of Baer, was already damage goods. People at the time of the Schaaf Carnea fight thought the ko was a fix. Carnera hit him with a light jab, and Schaaf died.

Dempsey 1919
01-09-2006, 02:38 PM
Fraizer and Foreman never killed a few people in the ring either.

Will Schaaf was almost beating to death, than died in his next match, as because of Baer, was already damage goods. People at the time of the Schaaf Carnea fight thought the ko was a fix. Carnera hit him with a light jab, and Schaaf died.

if will schaff fought frazier or foreman, he would have died alot quicker.

Dempsey1238
01-09-2006, 02:47 PM
Schaaf was a REAL good fighter in his era, Hell for a while people went crazy and were searching for John L Sullivan's old gold belt, and if found they would give it too Schaaf and declear him the new champ. Thats how big he was. He would have giving Fraizer a give run up in a fight, and maybe get bomb out like Joe Roman or Ken Norton by Foreman.

That search even involed Nat. He fould the belt melted and turn into gold chucks, so they never could relly offer the title to Schaaf.

Than the Baer fight happen, it was one of the worse beatings in Ring History. Baer's right hand ko Schaaf, and Schaaf had brain damage, after the bout. But he needed money, and there was no health regulitions back than compare today, So he fought Primo Carnera, and Carnera killed him with a light jab.

I belive Baer Killed Campbell with one murderious right on the ropes.

Yogi
01-09-2006, 03:08 PM
I belive Baer Killed Campbell with one murderious right on the ropes.

I think I've read that before, as well, and if so...Baer knocked Campbell's brain completely loose from any tissue contact with only that one right hand.

Heckler
01-09-2006, 04:56 PM
Greatest heart? I'm not so sure about that. He wanted to quit in most of his major fights, but Dundee wouldn't let him

Find proof of any kind. If not shut your mouth, Ali was alot of things but a QUITTER wasn't one of them, his ego was wouldn't allow him to do that.

Dempsey 1919
01-09-2006, 04:58 PM
Find proof of any kind. If not shut your mouth, Ali was alot of things but a QUITTER wasn't one of them, his ego was wouldn't allow him to do that.

that's very true.

Yogi
01-09-2006, 05:07 PM
Find proof of any kind. If not shut your mouth, Ali was alot of things but a QUITTER wasn't one of them, his ego was wouldn't allow him to do that.

"Cut my gloves off. I can't see. We're going home." Cassius yelled.

"No way," I snapped. "Get in there and fight. If you can't see, keep away from him until your eyes clear. This is the big one. Nobody walks away from the heavyweight championship."

-Angelo Dundee speaking about a time when Ali wanted to quit and that there can be found on page 194 of Dundee's bio, 'I Only Talk Winning'.

Dempsey 1919
01-09-2006, 05:10 PM
"Cut my gloves off. I can't see. We're going home." Cassius yelled.

"No way," I snapped. "Get in there and fight. If you can't see, keep away from him until your eyes clear. This is the big one. Nobody walks away from the heavyweight championship."

-Angelo Dundee speaking about a time when Ali wanted to quit and that there can be found on page 194 of Dundee's bio, 'I Only Talk Winning'.

what else would you do if you literally couldn't see. clay knew it would be suicide to go out into the ring blind against liston, a straight-up killer. doesn't mean clay had no heart.

Yogi
01-09-2006, 05:13 PM
"Clay didn't want to come out for the round at all. He told me later that he was at the door of the Near Room--the place with the trombone-playing alligators and the screaming snakes. He almost went in. He said that his eyes hurt so much from whatever it was in them that he told Dundee to cut the gloves off."

-page 104 of George Plimpton's, 'Shadow Box'

Yogi
01-09-2006, 05:16 PM
what else would you do if you literally couldn't see.

Do like what Marciano did for a few rounds against Walcott in their first fight and suck it up...Never hear/read anything about Marciano wanting someone to "cut the gloves off" now do you?

Dempsey1238
01-09-2006, 05:16 PM
Marciano was blind vs Walcott,

Folly and Machen were blind vs Liston and yet they did not ask for the gloves to be cut off.

Thats about it off the top of my head.

Brassangel
01-11-2006, 09:18 PM
He actually posted a quote from another source; while covering the same fight, it was the biggest one of his career by that point. A fight where Ali would become the Heavyweight Champion of the world is one where more details would be carefully recorded than they would be in other situations.

Oh yeah, Ali also had to receive encouragement to resume the fight in Manilla against Frazier after round 10. He was going to refuse the bell but his cornermen pushed him out. This information can be found in "King of the World," and Joe's training manual/autobiography, who's name I can't remember.

Fortunately for Ali, he resumed both of these fights and went on to receive a great name because of said victories. He had a lot of heart, but his heart came more from his corner than from himself in those situations. Even so, Ali is still the man.

Yogi
01-11-2006, 09:26 PM
you just posted the same god damn situation as before.. can you give another situation where ali wanted to quit... i think not :rolleyes:

Yeah so?

Someone said to "find proof of any kind" in regards to Ali wanting to quit a fight and that's exactly what I did. I provided one source from his own trainer which speaks on the situation, and then followed it up with another source from a very respected writer which indicates Ali saying those words to him...

Is it so wrong to back up a primary source with a secondary source? :confused:

Brassangel
01-11-2006, 09:32 PM
Yogi Is it so wrong to back up a primary source with a secondary source?

No. In fact, that's the proper way to handle a situation like this in a debate.

Yogi
01-11-2006, 09:43 PM
No. In fact, that's the proper way to handle a situation like this in a debate.

No doubt that it is...but judging by the way he responded, it seems that the words of both Dundee & Plimpton has offended that Jazz fellow just a little bit.

Another worshipper in the 'Church of Ali' possibly?

*shrugs*

Brassangel
01-11-2006, 09:56 PM
I think that a lot of Ali worshippers started watching the flood of "Classic Ali" during the summer of '05 and have been hooked ever since. I must admit, it was entertaining. There's no reason for these people to take such offense to comments that display his imperfections in the slightest way, however.

Dempsey1238
01-11-2006, 09:57 PM
No doubt that it is...but judging by the way he responded, it seems that the words of both Dundee & Plimpton has offended that Jazz fellow just a little bit.

Another worshipper in the 'Church of Ali' possibly?

*shrugs*

"Church of Ali"

Thats a good one. Thinking about it, some boxers do have "Chruchs"

Marciano,
Louis,
Robinson,
Jones,
and others lol.

hellfire508
01-11-2006, 10:02 PM
a) Ali did say that against Liston.

b) He went out there, ran for the round. Then came back out in 6 and schooled Sonny. SAying it and doing it are two different things.

c) He actually said, "I wanna prove to the world that there is dirty work afoot" - in addition to "cut the gloves off".

MUHAMMAD ALI TKO 7 SONNY LISTON

Yogi
01-11-2006, 10:49 PM
c) He actually said, "I wanna prove to the world that there is dirty work afoot" - in addition to "cut the gloves off".

Yeah, I've read that "dirty work" quote before, but it still doesn't change the fact that Ali verbally stated that he wanted out of a situation, where others have sucked it up and continued on...Pages 206 to 208 of Skeehan's bio on Marciano speaks of Rocky being blinded in, not one single round like Ali, but a few rounds during the middle portion of the fight. Yet there's not one mention of Marciano wanting to take the easier way out of the fight...Here's some quotes from those pages;


'"There's something in my eyes" Marciano told Columbo in the corner (after the sixth round). "They're burning."

"My eyes are getting worse." Rocky said at the end of the seventh round. "Do something. I can't see."

"He's(Marciano) getting his brains knocked out." - Nicky Sylvester

"Rocky was taking a helluva pounding." - Izzy Gold, who along with Sylvester was a good buddy of Rocky's.

Marciano was being harmed. In fact, he was being battered. Only not into submission. For he kept coming forward relentlessly, always bringing the fight to Walcott.

Possessed by something too intense for description--determination, killer instinct, courage--all of these and something more. For Marciano had to win. It was all that mattered.

"Rocky believed he was blinded intentionally until the day he died," Peter Marciano said. "He spoke of it often."

Long after the fight, Rocky would become so convinced that there had been foul play that he accused Bocchicchio of rubbing a hot, irritant salve, a capsicum ointment, on Walcott's gloves and upper body. He made the charges in a story published in the Saturday Evening Post in October 1956, and the Curtis Publishing Company was promptly sued by Bocchicchio. But, based largely on testimony by Rocky's paesano Melchiore, a Pennsylvania jury belived the allegations and found in favor of the post...But right now Rocky was fighting for his life. He didn't know why it was happening. He only knew he was almost blind, and everything he'd ever dreamed and hungered for was slipping out of his grasp.

By the end of the ninth round, Marciano's eyes were clearing up.'


One fighter dealing with the exact same situation but for a longer period of time...Yet not one mention of him wanting to quit and many mentions of him sucking it up & continueing on, all the while "getting his brains knocked out"

Yogi
01-11-2006, 10:56 PM
"In the sixth, as the stocky challnger came up out of his customary crouch with the fighters at close range, their heads cracked together and blood spewed from a deep cut on Marciano's forehead and from a gash on Walcott's left eye-lid. The champion's injury looked worse, but in the succeeding rounds it was Marciano who suffered. A combination of blood from his own cut and some form of medication used on Walcott's wound found it's way into Marciano's eyes, leaving him virtually blind and defenseless as Walcott ripped in hooks and uppercuts. Between rounds his corner team of Freddie Brown, Charlie Goldman and Aliie Columbo worked frantically, rinsing their man's inflamed eyes with small sponges soaked in cold water. By the ninth, the eyes had started to clear."

- page 96 of Harry Mullan's book, "The Ultimate Enclyclopedia of Boxing'

hellfire508
01-11-2006, 11:25 PM
I understand that...but just because Ali said he wanted to quit - doesnt mean he did. Can you really imagine Ali not coming out? And nonetheless - he did come out. So there is no debate about it.

Yogi
01-11-2006, 11:34 PM
I understand that...but just because Ali said he wanted to quit - So there is no debate about it.

Hellfire, this whole discussion started when someone said that "Ali wanted to quit", which prompted a response from someone challenging him to "find any proof of that", which is when I presented those quotes.

hellfire508
01-12-2006, 07:26 AM
Hellfire, this whole discussion started when someone said that "Ali wanted to quit", which prompted a response from someone challenging him to "find any proof of that", which is when I presented those quotes.

Oh sorry I didn't read that.

Brassangel
01-12-2006, 04:19 PM
hellfire508 Oh sorry I didn't read that.

This seems to be a common theme on these threads. I just had to clear up a bunch of stuff on the thread I started about Frazier vs. Holyfield, where I had Frazier winning. The controversey comes from the fact that because I wrote about Holyfield putting up a good fight, [they] believe he (Holyfield) won. People don't believe in reading all of the details anymore, I guess.

On a side note, this comment was not to knock you, hellfire508, it was mearly to clear up a common frustration.

Yogi
01-12-2006, 06:02 PM
lets be logical now... the first instinct that comes to you when your eyes burn is to get your hands to your eyes and wipe your eyes.

Sorry, I can't help you there...because unlike you obviously do, I don't shed any tears when someone provides factual evidence against a favourite fighter of mine.

Yogi
01-12-2006, 06:15 PM
indeed ali is the favorite fighter of mine, but i would never give biased information, and would never avoid a question because i'm a dumb ***** who knows i don't have anything to reply with :eek:

I already replied with two quotes from very credible sources stating Ali wanted to quit in that first Liston fight...All you have is wishful thinking, as evidence by your reaching "REALLY REALLY REALLY" comment...

Call me a "dumb *****" all you want, but I'll certainly take the words of both Angelo Dundee and Ali over some Ali fan on a boxing board.

Yogi
01-12-2006, 06:23 PM
^idiot... i would never give biased information, you just can't admit you were wrong...

Where was I "wrong"?

I gave the exact quotes from two books and both sources were very, very close to Ali at the time (unlike some fan 40+ years later claiming otherwise), which you and anybody else could look up for yourself by taking a short trip to the library.

You own a library card, don't you? If so, what are you waiting for...go to the library, take out either or both of those books, and tell me where I misquoted anything.

Good luck!

Dempsey1238
01-12-2006, 06:28 PM
I even have Dundee saying that quote on FILM it self, when he was talking about the Liston fight.

Its called Ali, Brains, Skill and Guts(I not sure if it is the right order)

But Dundee did say that Ali said cut the gloves off, I cant see.

And Dundee just replie, This is the big apple, This is for the title, we dont cut gloves off here, just run.

Dempsey1238
01-12-2006, 06:34 PM
The only other times is the Ali Fraizer 3rd fight, Round ten.

Now as we all know, Dundee push Ali, telling him not to quit, and well Ali did not quit, he did thought about quiting from time to time.

Yogi
01-12-2006, 06:44 PM
seriously though, are you an idiot? i said you were completly right about those 2... can you tell me ANOTHER.. let me say it again for you... ANOTHER!!! ... time where ali wanted to quit? thanks

Huh? :confused:

One posting you're saying "you can't admit you were wrong" in reference to me & my previous posts on the issue, and in the next post you're saying that I'm "completely right"...All I talked about & offered quotes for was in regards to the first Ali/Liston fight, bro.

*scratches head*

hellfire508
01-12-2006, 09:30 PM
Jazz - Ali did talk about quitting against Liston, and in Manila. I am probably Ali's biggest (realistic) fan. He said to Dundee "cut the gloves off" against Liston. He said he didn't want to go on against Frazier.

Just accept that he did say it. Jeez.

He didn't quit, and won both fights. So what's the big deal with admitting it? Do you feel it is downlplaying his heart?

Just watch him get knocked down by the hardest left hook ever thrown in round 15, against the undefeated heavyweight champion who hits like a damn truck - and get up in under 3 seconds, then come back and try and win the round. He had heart. And a damn big one at that.

Dempsey 1919
01-13-2006, 01:20 AM
Jazz - Ali did talk about quitting against Liston, and in Manila. I am probably Ali's biggest (realistic) fan. He said to Dundee "cut the gloves off" against Liston. He said he didn't want to go on against Frazier.

Just accept that he did say it. Jeez.

He didn't quit, and won both fights. So what's the big deal with admitting it? Do you feel it is downlplaying his heart?

Just watch him get knocked down by the hardest left hook ever thrown in round 15, against the undefeated heavyweight champion who hits like a damn truck - and get up in under 3 seconds, then come back and try and win the round. He had heart. And a damn big one at that.

yeah, that's true, even though thast hook did look better than it was.

Dempsey 1919
01-13-2006, 01:22 AM
I am probably Ali's biggest (realistic) fan.

how dare you say that in my presence ahahahaha. :D

Brassangel
01-13-2006, 01:33 AM
Popping back up after three seconds was a mind game. Ali had a great chin, so he had some room to play with. What would demoralize a fighter, more than anything, after they felt as though they just brought the house down by smashing you? Watching you get right back up.

Ali would pop back up immediately when he got knocked down to make his opponents feel like they couldn't possibly throw anything else at him. They had given him everything and he still looks fresh. That's humiliating. Ali did get hurt in these situations, however, and you could see it when he'd immediately hang on to the ropes while standing up. He also said he often had to stop seeing double after something like that, and you can watch his eyes stare at nothing in an attempt to refocus. Plus, he gets a 9 second breather. Even so, this was a brilliant tactic to ruin the morale of his opponents.

Dempsey 1919
01-13-2006, 02:40 AM
Popping back up after three seconds was a mind game. Ali had a great chin, so he had some room to play with. What would demoralize a fighter, more than anything, after they felt as though they just brought the house down by smashing you? Watching you get right back up.

Ali would pop back up immediately when he got knocked down to make his opponents feel like they couldn't possibly throw anything else at him. They had given him everything and he still looks fresh. That's humiliating. Ali did get hurt in these situations, however, and you could see it when he'd immediately hang on to the ropes while standing up. He also said he often had to stop seeing double after something like that, and you can watch his eyes stare at nothing in an attempt to refocus. Plus, he gets a 9 second breather. Even so, this was a brilliant tactic to ruin the morale of his opponents.

but the fact that he got up at three to begin with says something about his chin.

hellfire508
01-13-2006, 07:23 AM
I agree it is partly a mind game. Ali was the master of mind games. Most fighters stay down to recuperate, but Ali jumps up and is ready to rumble. Regardless of whether it is a mind game though - it takes heart to do it.

Ali, Holyfield, Marciano and Frazier have the biggest hearts at heavyweight IMO. (in no order).