Lets take a look at the difference between these 2 for Kaps.



BJ Penn:

Win Renzo Gracie Decision (Unanimous) K-1-World Grand Prix Hawaii 7/29/2005 3 5:00
Loss Ryoto Machida Decision (Unanimous) K-1-Hero's 1 3/26/2005 3 5:00
Win Rodrigo Gracie Decision (Unanimous) ROTR 6-Rumble on the Rock 6 11/20/2004 3 5:00
Win Duane Ludwig Submission (Arm Triangle Choke) K-1 MMA-ROMANEX 5/22/2004 1 1:45
Win Matt Hughes Submission (Rear Naked Choke) UFC 46-Supernatural 1/31/2004 1 4:39
Win Takanori Gomi Submission (Rear Naked Choke) ROTR 4-Rumble on the Rock 4 10/10/2003 3 2:35
Draw Caol Uno Draw UFC 41-Onslaught 2/28/2003 5 5:00
Win Matt Serra Decision (Unanimous) UFC 39-The Warriors Return 9/27/2002 3 5:00
Win Paul Creighton TKO (Strikes) UFC 37-High Impact 5/10/2002 2 3:23
Loss Jens Pulver Decision (Majority) UFC 35-Throwdown 1/11/2002 5 5:00
Win Caol Uno KO (Punches) UFC 34-High Voltage 11/2/2001 1 0:11
Win Din Thomas TKO (Strikes) UFC 32-Showdown in the Meadowlands 6/29/2001 1 2:42
Win Joey Gilbert



George St.Pierre:
Win Sean Sherk TKO (Strikes) UFC 56-Full Force 11/19/2005 2 2:53
Win Frank Trigg Submission (Rear Naked Choke) UFC 54-Boiling Point 8/20/2005 1 4:09
Win Jason Miller Decision (Unanimous) UFC 52-Couture vs Liddell 2 4/16/2005 3 5:00
Win Dave Strasser Submission (Kimura) TKO 19-Rage 1/29/2005 1 1:52
Loss Matt Hughes Submission (Armbar) UFC 50-The War of '04 10/22/2004 1 4:59
Win Jay Hieron TKO (Punches) UFC 48-Payback 6/19/2004 1 1:42
Win Karo Parisyan Decision (Unanimous) UFC 46-Supernatural 1/31/2004 3 5:00
Win Pete Spratt Submission (Rear Naked Choke) TKO 14-Road Warriors 11/29/2003 1 3:40
Win Thomas Denny TKO (Cut) UCC 12-Adrenaline 1/25/2003 2 4:45
Win Travis Galbraith TKO (Strikes) UCC 11-The Next Level 10/11/2002 1 2:03
Win Justin Bruckmann Submission (Armbar) UCC 10-Battle for the Belts 2002 6/15/2002 1 3:23
Win Ivan Menjivar TKO UCC 7-Bad Boyz 1/25/2002 1 4:50



Now as you can clearly see Penn has definately had the tougher competition While St.Pierre has fought just a couple quality fighters.Now don't get me wrong I think St.Pierre is gonna be seriously great very soon but not against penn he has way too much experience and has an untouchable ground game.

1 More fight aint much more experiance. Everybody St. Peezy has fought have been good fighters, the only ones I havnt heard of are Bruckman and Galbraith. While Penn struggled in a fight with 40somthing year old Renzo. GSP was handling Hughes before he got caught with an armbar. Penn is waaaaay over rated. Sure, he was the top guy at 155, and he did beat Matt Hughes. But that's his only good victory since moving up in weight....

You do realize that everytime you've went against Penn you've been wrong right?

Wrong again Amigo, I went against him against Machida and as I expected, he got his ass kicked. Lets take a deeper look at Penn's last few opponents..

Duane Ludwig - Way to go Penn, you beat a guy who hadnt had a MMA fight in 2 years!
Rodrigo Gracie - 5-0 at the time of the fight against all cans. He sure was a great matchup for Penn eh? Why didnt Penn finish him?
Ryoto Machida - Anyone with half a brain knew Machida was gonna win this one. The nuthuggers are the only ones that thought BJ had a chance...
Renzo Gracie - 40somthing and had not fought in over 2 years. Penn couldnt do much but take him down....

Lets look at GSP.


Sean Sherk- that was like fighting Vern Troyer -aka "minnie me".Who couldn't win a fight like that with a midget.

Trigg-absolutely overrated IMO

Jason Miller-who?

Dave Strasser-not that great at all.

Matt hughes-lost in 1st rd armbar easy win for hughes didn't penn dominate hughes? oh yeah he did.

Jay hieron-again who?


Karo Parisyan-a good win i'll give him that.


Spratt-everyone beats him


After him it's a who's who of nobodies.

Lets look at GSP.


Sean Sherk- that was like fighting Vern Troyer -aka "minnie me".Who couldn't win a fight like that with a midget.

Sean Sherk 29-2-1, Top ten WW. Not a can....

Trigg-absolutely overrated IMO

Overrated? Almost all of his wins are against top competeters in the weight class. Besides beating the shit out of Hallman(who beat Hughes Twice) twice, he also steamrolled thru BJ's buddy Verrisimo who also gave Hughes all he could handle...

Jason Miller-who?

This statement shows how out of touch with the sport you are. Mayhem is a great BJJ guy who has some good strikes too. He got famous in Hawaii for beating up Hawaiians. He was supposed to be "light years ahead of GSP on the ground." and still got his ass handed to him in every aspect of the fight.

Dave Strasser-not that great at all.
Cant argue here, but St. Peezy did finish him, unlike Penn could do to Rodrigo or Renzo.

Matt hughes-lost in 1st rd armbar easy win for hughes didn't penn dominate hughes? oh yeah he did.

GSP dominated him too, for 4 minutes and 55 seconds, until he got caught at the end of the round with that Armbar....

Jay hieron-again who?
Another guy that GSP finished...


Karo Parisyan-a good win i'll give him that.

Oh you will? How sweet of you...


Spratt-everyone beats him
Not everyone, but yeah, he's not the most well rounded. Let me check somthing here, yep, GSP finished him too....


After him it's a who's who of nobodies.

Thomas Denny and Ivan Menjivar are both pretty well known and respected in the MMA community. That just leaves the other 2 cunucks that I never heard of. You are easier than Mike Tyson Jr...

Sean Sherk 29-2-1, Top ten WW. Not a can....



Overrated? Almost all of his wins are against top competeters in the weight class. Besides beating the shit out of Hallman(who beat Hughes Twice) twice, he also steamrolled thru BJ's buddy Verrisimo who also gave Hughes all he could handle...



This statement shows how out of touch with the sport you are. Mayhem is a great BJJ guy who has some good strikes too. He got famous in Hawaii for beating up Hawaiians. He was supposed to be "light years ahead of GSP on the ground." and still got his ass handed to him in every aspect of the fight.


Cant argue here, but St. Peezy did finish him, unlike Penn could do to Rodrigo or Renzo.



GSP dominated him too, for 4 minutes and 55 seconds, until he got caught at the end of the round with that Armbar....


Another guy that GSP finished...




Oh you will? How sweet of you...



Not everyone, but yeah, he's not the most well rounded. Let me check somthing here, yep, GSP finished him too....




Thomas Denny and Ivan Menjivar are both pretty well known and respected in the MMA community. That just leaves the other 2 cunucks that I never heard of. You are easier than Mike Tyson Jr...



I might be somewhat I'll admit that.But I still think Trigg sucks that's just my opinion.

I actually think they're pretty comparible as far as experience and level of opponents. Penn may have beaten fighters with a bigger "name", but talent wise they're pretty equal.

Lets look at GSP.


Sean Sherk- that was like fighting Vern Troyer -aka "minnie me".Who couldn't win a fight like that with a midget.

Trigg-absolutely overrated IMO

Jason Miller-who?

Dave Strasser-not that great at all.

Matt hughes-lost in 1st rd armbar easy win for hughes didn't penn dominate hughes? oh yeah he did.

Jay hieron-again who?


Karo Parisyan-a good win i'll give him that.


Spratt-everyone beats him


After him it's a who's who of nobodies.

HOly shit, pops.
I was ****ing surprised with the way he manhandled Mayhem and Sherk. Again, I am not gonna say shit about who wins 'cause this fight can go either way... St. Frenchie has proven to be top 5 at the moment (not only in UFC), and Penn, even though he has fought some unnecessary and dumb fights, he still top 5 pound for pound.

Kpas pretty much handled this, but a few things he missed...

"Dave Strasser-not that great at all."

This is just silly.

Strasser might not be A+ claber but he is a legit bad ass and B+/A- fighter.

He coaches a good camp with tough guys.


"Jay hieron-again who?"

Jay Hieron, Trains with Team Quest, was 4-0 at the time of the GSP fight if i recall correctly.

Decent fighter form all I've heard about him, tho viciously out classed against GSP.



"a who's who of nobodies."


Thomas Denny - 21-12, not the most golden of records but he has fought really tough opponents like Yves, John Alessio, Bang, Joe Stevenson, the list goes on!

Ivan Menjivar - Has fought in every weight class from 145 to 170 and done very well. an unbelievably talented fighter who I've had the pleasure of watching live a few times.

He fought Shaolin and all Shaolin could do was lay on him and finger his cut.

Ivan holds a record of 17-3 with losses to Jason Black, Saolin, and Matt Serra, his fight with GSP was ruled a no contest (I saw it and i dunno why they stopeed it myself.)

He holds wins over Jeff Curran (24-7-1), Jou Louzon (14-5)

both guys are legitimately tough!

Would luv for GSP to to beat penn and subb hughes that would be fukin great...

Wonder how much they would pay a canadian boy once he becomes champ??

Would luv for GSP to to beat penn and subb hughes that would be fukin great...

Wonder how much they would pay a canadian boy once he becomes champ??



Probably like 50 bottles of syrup.

50 is a pretty big number lol

I actually think they're pretty comparible as far as experience and level of opponents. Penn may have beaten fighters with a bigger "name", but talent wise they're pretty equal. Talent wise, no. Nothing to take away from GSP but Penn is far better talent wise. IMO.

People will be shocked at how Penn easily defeats GSP by submission.

People will be shocked at how Penn easily defeats GSP by submission.

GSP is a small/thin fighter but penn has been known to be lazy, IF he's that confident the'r no doubt he's isn't training as hard as he could be..

GSP is a small/thin fighter but penn has been known to be lazy, IF he's that confident the'r no doubt he's isn't training as hard as he could be..
Yes he did state the fact that he was 3 years plus ago! Since then, I cannot see in any of his fights that he is lazy.

He was confident on fighting a match which was aainst the champion in the UFC Welterweight division. When BJ won in the first round by sub, many stated that Matt Hughes didnt train and took BJ lightly. Some even said that Matt had to lose 20 pounds in one night to make weight.

Matt never made excuses on his losses. Only people on the internet. BJ never made any excuses on his loss to a heavyweight fighter named Machida.

Can you show me lazy?

Lazy was his excuse for moving up in weight IMO. He looked like shit against both Gracies and Machida, and Machida is a 185lb fighter not a heavyweight. Is there some kind of law in Hawaii that you have to keep a tight squeeze on BJ's nuts? Dont get me wrong, the guy is a great fighter, and he did beat Matt Hughes, ****in dominated him. But that's his only solid victory since moving up in weight and I dont see what makes everyone think he's so incredible. I dont get it....

Lazy was his excuse for moving up in weight IMO. He looked like shit against both Gracies and Machida, and Machida is a 185lb fighter not a heavyweight. Is there some kind of law in Hawaii that you have to keep a tight squeeze on BJ's nuts? Dont get me wrong, the guy is a great fighter, and he did beat Matt Hughes, ****in dominated him. But that's his only solid victory since moving up in weight and I dont see what makes everyone think he's so incredible. I dont get it....
It has to be all because of his victory over Hughes.

[QUOTE=kaps]Lazy was his excuse for moving up in weight IMO.QUOTE]

Lazy is moving up in weight?

Yeah, it takes alot to cut weight....

Yeah, it takes alot to cut weight....

Kaps, guess this guy didn't see Bj in his last K1 MMA fight huh?? lol Even reading about it was making me yawn.

I got nothing against BJ Penn, I just dont fallow the hype. They like worship the guy in Hawaii though....

I got nothing against BJ Penn, I just dont fallow the hype. They like worship the guy in Hawaii though....

Well he is the biggest thing to come off of the rock(hawaii)... So he's deffinatly a huge role-model in that aspect..
We'll see how good he does, his next 2 fights won't be easy..

Yeah, it takes alot to cut weight....

So that means he is lazy? He dominated Matt Hughes when he moved up in weight. Matt was p4p and the greatest UFC Welterweight champion. So since he moved up in weight, it shows that he is lazy? You dont make sense.

Many fighters throughout mma history bloated up in weight and fought in the Heavyweight division. Does that make them lazy? The same ones who climbed up in weight, currently fight in the lightheavyweight division. Randy Couture is one of them and he is the only person to win the Heavyweight and Light Heavyweight championship in the UFC. Wanderlei Silva in Pride fought Heavyweights. Does that make him lazy?

BJ PENN HAS NEVER FOUGHT A HEAVYWEIGHT! And it's widley believed that he quit fighting at 155 because he didnt want to bother/work to cut the weight anymore. Bring up Matt Hughes again, please. 1 good victory since moving up in weight, 1, one, uno. So that makes him the best ever? That makes him un-beatable in every weight class? I dont see your logic. Randy Couture climbed down in weight, not up. Vanderlei fought heavyweights while he was a light heavyweight. He didnt get fat to fight them. Like I said, Penn is a great fighter, but I believe he lacks heart, and will not fallow the hype that came from his one good victory after moving up in weight...

So that means he is lazy? He dominated Matt Hughes when he moved up in weight. Matt was p4p and the greatest UFC Welterweight champion. So since he moved up in weight, it shows that he is lazy? You dont make sense.

Many fighters throughout mma history bloated up in weight and fought in the Heavyweight division. Does that make them lazy? The same ones who climbed up in weight, currently fight in the lightheavyweight division. Randy Couture is one of them and he is the only person to win the Heavyweight and Light Heavyweight championship in the UFC. Wanderlei Silva in Pride fought Heavyweights. Does that make him lazy?

The Hw's wanderlei silva fought are better than any competition arlovski has faced to date, with teh exclusion of rizzo, whom of course KO'd AA...
Wanderlei didn't move up weight to fight the HW;s..
HE weighed around 215-220 his natural weight..
So for him to step up and fight a guy that weighs atleast 20lbs more and many considered him one of the best kick-boxers in tha world(mirko) Deffinatly is not lazy, it's crazy :)
For Bj Penn to actually move up in weight, does hint at laziness, he doesn't have to focus on cutting weight or as much weight and everybody knows, the higher the weight class, the slower the pace of the fights are..
On the other hand, if I was a fighter, I totally disagree with cutting weight, takes alot out of you, I would fight in the heavier division as well, but i'm also lazy..

BJ PENN HAS NEVER FOUGHT A HEAVYWEIGHT! And it's widley believed that he quit fighting at 155 because he didnt want to bother/work to cut the weight anymore. Bring up Matt Hughes again, please. 1 good victory since moving up in weight, 1, one, uno. So that makes him the best ever? That makes him un-beatable in every weight class? I dont see your logic. Randy Couture climbed down in weight, not up. Vanderlei fought heavyweights while he was a light heavyweight. He didnt get fat to fight them. Like I said, Penn is a great fighter, but I believe he lacks heart, and will not fallow the hype that came from his one good victory after moving up in weight...


BJ PENN HAS NEVER FOUGHT A HEAVYWEIGHT! Machida wasnt a Heavyweight?

And it's widley believed that he quit fighting at 155 because he didnt want to bother/work to cut the weight anymore.
widley believed in your mind and a few others, not the consensus of the mma community.


Bring up Matt Hughes again, please.
I brought that up since you were saying that moving up in weight makes BJ lazy. Remember, he was fighting in LW and then moved up in weight to beat the WW champion in the UFC. How lazy is that?

So that makes him the best ever?

Never said that.


That makes him un-beatable in every weight class?

Never said that.



Randy Couture climbed down in weight

Yes, he did, but as a very light Heavyweight, it only makes sense to drop a few pounds(not 20 pounds), to fight in a lighter division than to fight in the big boy arena. (Which he did when he was a big boy). May I add, he won both championships in both weight catergories!

Vanderlei fought heavyweights while he was a light heavyweight.

Since when 215 is Light Heavyweight?



Like I said, Penn is a great fighter, but I believe he lacks heart, and will not fallow the hype that came from his one good victory after moving up in weight

He beat Hughes, Gracie and Gracie while moving up in weight. Hype or not, he won very formidable opponents.

How is Ralph Gracie a formidable opponent? Also, Renzo Gracie is pushing 40 and hadn't had a fight in over 2 years. I can see Renzo being a good win, if he'd be active, but he hasnt been. Machida fights at 205lbs, that's a LHW my friend. He did beat Matt Hughes, and he was in shape, I seen it live, but since that fight, he just looks puffy and lazy. I dont understand the point you're trying to make about Randy Couture. 215 is Silva's weight before cutting to LHW, in a fight where he doesnt have to cut because Pride matched him up with a HW, then it makes since that he wouldnt right? UFC didnt match Penn with Hughes, Penn just decided that cutting weight was to hard for him so he moved up. I answered your last part of the arguement in the first sentance of this reply....

How is Ralph Gracie a formidable opponent? ..

Bj never fought Ralph.




Lyoto Machida
Height: 6'1"
Weight: 207 lbs
Born: 5/30/1978

HEAVYWEIGHT
http://njpw.com/fighters/lyoto.shtml


215 is Silva's weight before cutting to LHW, in a fight where he doesnt have to cut because Pride matched him up with a HW, then it makes since that he wouldnt right?

Exactly! Doesnt make him lazy!!!!! So if BJ fights at his weight before cutting weight, it makes him lazy?


From what I read: (which sums it up)


Matt Hughes was insulted that BJ was gonna go up to challenge him and wanted to make an example of him. He even said it would be embarassing to lose to a lighter guy. No ****in' way he ''gave'' that fight to BJ. It was straight up taken from him.

What other WW defeated Penn? None.
Ryoto Machida who got a JD on him in K-1 is 220lbs. That was Penn's fight with an undefeated HW fighter who has KO'd Rich Franklin and TKO'd Stephan Bonner!

That little framed dude also tapped Bang Ludwig at WW and outclassed Rodrigo and Renzo Gracie in the 185lbs weighclass after defeating Hughes! Right before that, he demolished the LW division's goldenboy Gomi at ROTR!

I think his rating as a pretty awesome fighter is justified.
GSP is a test for anyone though.

Bj never fought Ralph.

I meant Rodrigo, what's the ****in difference?




Lyoto Machida
Height: 6'1"
Weight: 207 lbs
Born: 5/30/1978

HEAVYWEIGHT
http://njpw.com/fighters/lyoto.shtml

What's that weight underlined? What weight is the LHW devision? Shit he's 2 pounds over, bonofied HW right there:rolleyes:


215 is Silva's weight before cutting to LHW, in a fight where he doesnt have to cut because Pride matched him up with a HW, then it makes since that he wouldnt right?

Exactly! Doesnt make him lazy!!!!! So if BJ fights at his weight before cutting weight, it makes him lazy?

Because Silva was in shape, BJ Penn has been eating to much spam and krispy cream...


From what I read: (which sums it up)


Matt Hughes was insulted that BJ was gonna go up to challenge him and wanted to make an example of him. He even said it would be embarassing to lose to a lighter guy. No ****in' way he ''gave'' that fight to BJ. It was straight up taken from him.

What other WW defeated Penn? None.
Ryoto Machida who got a JD on him in K-1 is 220lbs. That was Penn's fight with an undefeated HW fighter who has KO'd Rich Franklin and TKO'd Stephan Bonner!

That little framed dude also tapped Bang Ludwig at WW and outclassed Rodrigo and Renzo Gracie in the 185lbs weighclass after defeating Hughes! Right before that, he demolished the LW division's goldenboy Gomi at ROTR!

I think his rating as a pretty awesome fighter is justified.
GSP is a test for anyone though.

No one is denying or trying to discredit him for beating Matt Hughes. His fight with Ludwig was at 155lbs as was his fight with Gomi. In the 155lb devision where he was the best in that weight. His wins over Renzo and Rodrigo are about as impressive as Fedor's win over Zuluzinho. Big ****in deal. Being that BJ hasn't fought anyone worth a shit since Hughes, and GSP has been fighting top notch opponents lately, I'm picking GSP to beat the puffy Penn....

Since Matt Hughes, it looks like he fought Duane Ludwing, Rodrigo Gracie, Lyoto Machida (pretty much a heavyweight and in fact one of the best ones gave rich franklin his only loss by KO) and Renzo Gracie. I'd say Penn's competition has been better than GSP's. Penn by easy (to the shock of disbelievers) submission. People also thought Matt Hughes was going to destroy Penn and we all know what happened there...


Win Renzo Gracie Decision (Unanimous) K-1-World Grand Prix Hawaii 7/29/2005 3 5:00

Loss Ryoto Machida Decision (Unanimous) K-1-Hero's 1 3/26/2005 3 5:00

Win Rodrigo Gracie Decision (Unanimous) ROTR 6-Rumble on the Rock 6 11/20/2004 3 5:00

Win Duane Ludwig Submission (Arm Triangle Choke) K-1 MMA-ROMANEX 5/22/2004 1 1:45

Win Matt Hughes Submission (Rear Naked Choke) UFC 46-Supernatural 1/31/2004 1 4:39

Win Takanori Gomi Submission (Rear Naked Choke) ROTR 4-Rumble on the Rock 4 10/10/2003 3 2:35

Re read the thread, I am tired of repeating myself, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that you're hawaiian...

His wins over Renzo and Rodrigo are about as impressive as Fedor's win over Zuluzinho. B]


And GSP's wins are way better?:
Win Sean Sherk TKO (Strikes) UFC 56-Full Force 11/19/2005 2 2:53
Win Frank Trigg Submission (Rear Naked Choke) UFC 54-Boiling Point 8/20/2005 1 4:09

[B]Rodrigo Gracie:

Win Kiuma Kunioku Decision (Unanimous) K-1-Hero's 2 7/6/2005 2 5:00
Loss B.J. Penn Decision (Unanimous) ROTR 6-Rumble on the Rock 6 11/20/2004 3 5:00
Win Hayato Sakurai Decision (Unanimous) PRIDE-Bushido 2 2/15/2004 2 5:00
Win Daiju Takase Decision (Unanimous) PRIDE-Bushido 1 10/5/2003 2 5:00
Win Yuki Sasaki Decision (Unanimous) PRIDE 24-Cold Fury 3 12/23/2002 3 5:00
Win Daijiro Matsui Submission (Guillotine Choke) PRIDE 19-Bad Blood 2/24/2002 3 0:28
Win Kyle DeMello Submission (Side Choke) VATV 10-Vengeance at the Vanderbilt 10 11/10/2000 1 0:34

Renzo Gracie:

Loss B.J. Penn Decision (Unanimous) K-1-World Grand Prix Hawaii 7/29/2005 3 5:00
Loss Carlos Newton Decision (Split) PRIDE-Bushido 1 10/5/2003 2 5:00
Loss Shungo Oyama Decision (Unanimous) PRIDE 21-Demolition 6/23/2002 3 5:00
Win Michiyoshi Ohara Decision (Unanimous) PRIDE 17-Championship Chaos 11/3/2001 3 5:00
Loss Dan Henderson KO (Punch) PRIDE 13-Collision Course 3/25/2001 1 1:40
Loss Kazushi Sakuraba Technical Submission (Kimura) PRIDE 10-Return of the Warriors 8/27/2000 2 9:43
Loss Kiyoshi Tamura Decision (Unanimous) Rings-King of Kings 1999 Final 2/26/2000 2 5:00
Win Maurice Smith Submission (Armlock) Rings-King of Kings 1999 Block B 12/22/1999 1 0:50
Win Wataru Sakata Submission (Armbar) Rings-King of Kings 1999 Block B 12/22/1999 1 1:25
Win Alexander Otsuka Decision PRIDE 8-PRIDE 8 11/21/1999 2 10:00
Win Sanae Kikuta Submission (Guillotine Choke) PRIDE 2-PRIDE 2 3/15/1998 6 0:43
Draw Akira Shoji Draw PRIDE 1-PRIDE 1 10/11/1997 3 10:00
NC Eugenio Tadeu No Contest - Fans Rioted Pentagon Combat-Pentagon Combat 9/27/1997 1 14:45
Win Oleg Taktarov KO (Kick and Punch) MARS-Martial Arts Reality Superfighting 11/22/1996 1 1:02
Win James Warring Submission (Choke) WCC 1-First Strike 10/17/1995 1 2:47
Win Phil Benedict Submission (Strikes) WCC 1-First Strike 10/17/1995 1 2:08
Win Ben Spijkers Submission (Choke) WCC 1-First Strike 10/17/1995 1 2:38


Sean Sherk:

Loss Georges St. Pierre TKO (Strikes) UFC 56-Full Force 11/19/2005 2 2:53
Win Joel Blanton Submission (Rear Naked Choke) BP-Pride and Glory 9/17/2005 1
Win Lee King Submission (Arm Triangle Choke) EC 60-Extreme Challenge 60 11/12/2004 1 2:20
Win Brodie Farber Submission (Choke) SF 6-Battleground in Reno 9/23/2004 1 0:55
Win Darin Brudigan Submission (Arm Triangle Choke) CFX 2-Cage Fighting Xtreme 2 9/4/2004 0
Win Gerald Strebendt TKO EC 58-Extreme Challenge 58 6/11/2004 1 3:52
Win Eric Heinz Submission (Neck Crank) PFA-Pride and Fury 6/3/2004 1 0:58
Win Jake Short Submission (Rear Naked Choke) ICC-Trials 2 4/30/2004 1
Win Kaleo Padilla Submission (Neck Crank) YTYT-You Think Your Tough 4/17/2004 2 1:17
Win Ryuki Ueyama Decision (Unanimous) PRIDE-Bushido 2 2/15/2004 2 5:00
Win Charles Taylor Submission (Keylock) EP-XXXtreme Impact 12/28/2003 2 0:58
Win Mark Long Submission (Strikes) EC-Extreme Combat 12/12/2003 1
Win John Alexander TKO EC-Extreme Combat 8/2/2003 1
Loss Matt Hughes Decision (Unanimous) UFC 42-Sudden Impact 4/25/2003 5 5:00
Win John Alexander Submission (Rear Naked Choke) EC 2-Extreme Combat 2 12/7/2002 1
Win Benji Radach TKO (Cut) UFC 39-The Warriors Return 9/27/2002 1 4:16
Win Jutaro Nakao Decision (Unanimous) UFC 36-Worlds Collide 3/22/2002 3 5:00
Win Claudionor Fontinelle Submission (Rear Naked Choke) UCC 6-Redemption 10/19/2001 2 1:04
Draw Kiuma Kunioku Draw Pancrase-2001 Neo-Blood Tournament, Round 2 7/29/2001 8:00:00 PM 3 5:00
Win Curtis Brigham TKO (Towel) UW-St. Paul 7/15/2001 3 1:15
Win Jason Purcell TKO UW-Ultimate Fight Minnesota 6/2/2001 1 1:42
Win Marty Armendarez TKO (Punches) KOTC 8-Bombs Away 4/29/2001 3 2:07
Win Manvel Gamberyian Decision RSF 3-Reality Submission Fighting 3 3/30/2001 1 18:00
Win Tiki Ghosn Submission (Shoulder Dislocated) UFC 30-Battle on the Boardwalk 2/23/2001 2 4:47
Win Karo Parisyan TKO (Towel) RSF 2-Reality Submission Fighting 2 1/5/2001 1 16:20
Win Ken Parham Decision SFC-Submission Fighting Championships 11/3/2000 2
Win Karo Parisyan Decision RSF 1-Reality Submission Fighting 1 10/10/2000 1 18:00
Win Steve Gomm Decision EC 28-Extreme Challenge 28 10/9/1999 1 10:00
Win Scott Bills Decision EC 28-Extreme Challenge 28 10/9/1999 1 10:00
Win Kurtis Jensen TKO Extreme Challenge-Trials 10/4/1999 1
Win Johnnie Holland Submission (Keylock) UW-Ultimate Wrestling 8/13/1999 2 2:10
Win Roscoe Ostyn Decision Dangerzone-Mahnomen 6/19/1999 0

Frank Trigg:

Loss Georges St. Pierre Submission (Rear Naked Choke) UFC 54-Boiling Point 8/20/2005 1 4:09
Loss Matt Hughes Submission (Rear Naked Choke) UFC 52-Couture vs Liddell 2 4/16/2005 1 4:05
Win Renato Verissimo TKO (Strikes) UFC 50-The War of '04 10/22/2004 2 2:11
Win Dennis Hallman TKO (Punches) UFC 48-Payback 6/19/2004 1 4:15
Loss Matt Hughes Submission (Rear Naked Choke) UFC 45-Revolution 11/21/2003 1 3:54
Win Dennis Hallman TKO (Abandonment) WFA 3-Level 3 11/23/2002 1
Win Jason Medina Submission (Elbow Strikes) WFA 2-Level 2 7/5/2002 1 3:43
Win LaVerne Clark Submission (Strikes) WFA 1-World Fighting Alliance 1 11/3/2001 3 2:15
Loss Hayato Sakurai TKO (Knees) Shooto-R.E.A.D. Final 12/17/2000 2 2:25
Win Ray Cooper Submission (Forearm Choke) WEF-New Blood Conflict 8/26/2000 2 3:05
Win Fabiano Iha TKO (Strikes) PRIDE 8-PRIDE 8 11/21/1999 1 5:00
Win Jean Jacques Machado TKO (Towel Thrown) VTJ 1998-Vale Tudo Japan 1998 10/25/1998 3 0:20
Win Marcelo Aguiar TKO (Punches) Shooto-Las Grandes Viajes 3 5/13/1998 2 3:08
Win Dan Gilbert Submission (Forearm Choke) USWF 7-Unified Shoot Wrestling Federation 7 10/18/1997 1 2:45
Win Javier Buentello Submission (Rear Naked Choke) USWF 7-Unified Shoot Wrestling Federation 7 10/18/1997 1 2:35
Win Ali Elias KO (Knee) USWF 7-Unified Shoot Wrestling Federation 7 10/18/1997 1 10:36







If that is the case, then I guess you can say the same about Georges win over Sherk and Trigg. Please note the names that Trigg and Sherk won! Now note who the Gracies have won.




__________________

Mana, you kind of just proved Kaps point ther. Trigg and Sherk's record is amazing. Trigg beat several good fighters and Sherk actually holds victories over Benji Radach, Jutaro Nakao and Karo Parisyan.

Mana, you kind of just proved Kaps point ther. Trigg and Sherk's record is amazing. Trigg beat several good fighters and Sherk actually holds victories over Benji Radach, Jutaro Nakao and Karo Parisyan.

Nah,
Check it out:
Rodrigo Gracie:

Hayato Sakurai

Daiju Takase

Daijiro Matsui

Renzo Gracie:

Maurice Smith

Alexander Otsuka

Oleg Taktarov



How many were UFC Champions? I can see two! And Renzo beat them. So how can Renzo be rubbish?

The other names are well known. So how can they not count(rodrigo and renzo)?

Look how long it's been since Renzo's last fight before Penn. Not to mention he's 40somthing. The Best fighter in the world cant finish a 40 year old with ring rust?

Nah,
Check it out:
Rodrigo Gracie:

Hayato Sakurai

Daiju Takase

Daijiro Matsui

Renzo Gracie:

Maurice Smith

Alexander Otsuka

Oleg Taktarov



How many were UFC Champions? I can see two! And Renzo beat them. So how can Renzo be rubbish?

The other names are well known. So how can they not count(rodrigo and renzo)?

How long ago were these fights?? These were like pride early days..
Thats like saying vitor should be pride MW champ cause he KO'd wandy 10yrs ago..

you guys are into this.

you should bet sigs.

How long ago were these fights?? These were like pride early days..
Thats like saying vitor should be pride MW champ cause he KO'd wandy 10yrs ago..

The hype comes from his 1 good win since moving up in weight, so in that case, I am hereby declairing TK to be the baddest mother ****er ever because he beat Fedor 4 years ago...

The hype comes from his 1 good win since moving up in weight, so in that case, I am hereby declairing TK to be the baddest mother ****er ever because he beat Fedor 4 years ago...

Cheers!! But fedor avenged that loss not too long ago, Wandy has not...

I'm not hawaiian. In fact, I'm not even american. I don't make fight predictions based on nationality, I make it based on skill level and previous competition. GSP has fought in TKO and UFC. He has fought three big names: sherk, trigg, and hughes, to whom he lost. In terms of talent and competition (and international experience), it's pretty obvious to me that BJ Penn is clearly ahead of GSP. How do you propose that GSP defeats Penn? By submission? Knockout? Decision? All of these scenarios seem highly unlikely to me. GSP was arm barred by Hughes. This leads me to conclude that Penn either arm bars or rear naked chokes GSP for the victory.

BTW, how do you think GSP would do against Lyoto Machida?


Re read the thread, I am tired of repeating myself, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that you're hawaiian...

I'm not hawaiian. In fact, I'm not even american. I don't make fight predictions based on nationality, I make it based on skill level and previous competition. GSP has fought in TKO and UFC. He has fought three big names: sherk, trigg, and hughes, to whom he lost. In terms of talent and competition (and international experience), it's pretty obvious to me that BJ Penn is clearly ahead of GSP. How do you propose that GSP defeats Penn? By submission? Knockout? Decision? All of these scenarios seem highly unlikely to me. GSP was arm barred by Hughes. This leads me to conclude that Penn either arm bars or rear naked chokes GSP for the victory.

BTW, how do you think GSP would do against Lyoto Machida?
GSP was actually doing rather well until he made the mistake of over committing to the kimura. He wasn't winning, but he wasn't losing etheir. It looked a lot like Hughes loss to Penn. Penn didn't dominate Hughes by any means. Hughes made a mistake, Penn took his back, and got the choke.

Georges has since steam-rolled 3 excellent fighters in his last 3 UFC fights. Trigg Sherk and Miller were all beaten and beaten by Georges at their own game. You "just get caught" a lot more in grappling than striking. A training partner of mine is a purple belt, probably a year away from getting his brown belt. I am still a white belt, and I choked him unconscious once. Does it mean I am a better fighter? Hell no. I got lucky and he just got caught in a weird position.

Judge both men by how they have looked in their last 3 fights. Penn had one some what decent fight but I watched his fight with Machida and Machida looked AWFUL in that fight, which I thought Penn won.

As for Georges, he has blown by 3 of the worlds best welterweights. He not only beat them, he made them look like newbie white belts at a BJJ class. So, to answer your question, I can see Georges winning by all 3 methods. Submission K.O or decison.

Well, based on your argument that a lesser skilled fighter can defeat a more skilled fighter by luck, then is it possible for GSP to win? Yes. Is it likely? No. Based on skills, Penn has a better chance of submitting GSP and Penn has never been knocked out and he has very good standup skills. People who pick against Penn defy logic and must dislike him for reasons other than his fighting skills.


GSP was actually doing rather well until he made the mistake of over committing to the kimura. He wasn't winning, but he wasn't losing etheir. It looked a lot like Hughes loss to Penn. Penn didn't dominate Hughes by any means. Hughes made a mistake, Penn took his back, and got the choke.

Georges has since steam-rolled 3 excellent fighters in his last 3 UFC fights. Trigg Sherk and Miller were all beaten and beaten by Georges at their own game. You "just get caught" a lot more in grappling than striking. A training partner of mine is a purple belt, probably a year away from getting his brown belt. I am still a white belt, and I choked him unconscious once. Does it mean I am a better fighter? Hell no. I got lucky and he just got caught in a weird position.

Judge both men by how they have looked in their last 3 fights. Penn had one some what decent fight but I watched his fight with Machida and Machida looked AWFUL in that fight, which I thought Penn won.

As for Georges, he has blown by 3 of the worlds best welterweights. He not only beat them, he made them look like newbie white belts at a BJJ class. So, to answer your question, I can see Georges winning by all 3 methods. Submission K.O or decison.

Well, based on your argument that a lesser skilled fighter can defeat a more skilled fighter by luck, then is it possible for GSP to win? Yes. Is it likely? No. Based on skills, Penn has a better chance of submitting GSP and Penn has never been knocked out and he has very good standup skills. People who pick against Penn defy logic and must dislike him for reasons other than his fighting skills.

I agree.

dislike him for reasons other than his fighting skills
He beat their poster boy and hero. J/K! But many of them picked Hughes on demolishing Penn by strength, skill, weight and whatever. Penn had no chance, blah blah blah. Then when Penn won, they all had to make excuses, which coincindentaly, Hughes NEVER made any excuse on why he lost. And since Hughes beat GSP with one of the sickest and quickest armbars at the end of the round, they pick GSP since he already lost to Hughes.

skilled fighter can defeat a more skilled fighter by luck, then is it possible for GSP to win? Yes. Is it likely? No. Based on skills, Penn has a better chance of submitting GSP and Penn has never been knocked out and he has very good standup skills.

Penn can only submitt in MMA in the top position. He is useless from on his back.

The problem with that is, The Rush has AWESOME takedown defense. Combine that with the way he sticks and move and picks his strikes, and KEEP a nice distance makes it hard to NOT to telegraph your shoot.

BTW, Sherk has never been TKO. He just got a taste of that. Trigg has never been dominated the way he was. Miller never got close to any real sub attempt. So saying he has never been knocked out doesnt mean much.

Penn can only submitt in MMA in the top position. He is useless from on his back.

The problem with that is, The Rush has AWESOME takedown defense. Combine that with the way he sticks and move and picks his strikes, and KEEP a nice distance makes it hard to NOT to telegraph your shoot.

BTW, Sherk has never been TKO. He just got a taste of that. Trigg has never been dominated the way he was. Miller never got close to any real sub attempt. So saying he has never been knocked out doesnt mean much.


Penn can only submitt in MMA in the top position. He is useless from on his back
Really? :bsflag:


The problem with that is, The Rush has AWESOME takedown defense. Combine that with the way he sticks and move and picks his strikes, and KEEP a nice distance makes it hard to NOT to telegraph your shoot.
It worked well vs. Hughes too! Then what happened?

BTW, Sherk has never been TKO. He just got a taste of that. Trigg has never been dominated the way he was. Miller never got close to any real sub attempt. So saying he has never been knocked out doesnt mean much
None of them where world black belt champions in BJJ.

In "MMA" BJ on his back is about as good as having a Harem with no penis.

Hughes is a BILLION times better wrestler than BJ. Not too many can hang with him in wrestling in that weight class. Maybe Sean Sherk...Wait, didnt he just fight a Canadian dude? Some dude with a THICK frenchy accent. What was that guy name? Oh YEAH! it was The Rush St.Pierre. Can you say "Spawl 'N Brawl"

As for being WORLD CLASS in BJJ, that just mean you can get paid mad cash for seminars. Check it, Frank Mir isnt World Class or a Black Belt but SCHOOLS ****ers on the ground. Hell, he isnt impressive at lower end grap turneys. Ricco Rod. is world class and barely tapps anyone. Anderson Silva has a black belt, and Im not impress in his grappling. World class grappler and havving a black belt DONT MEAN SHIT if your style doesnt adapt to MMA. BJ's bjj from his back is NOT impressive. If he is on top, EVERYONE in ALL weight divisions would have trouble.

In "MMA" BJ on his back is about as good as having a Harem with no penis.

Hughes is a BILLION times better wrestler than BJ. Not too many can hang with him in wrestling in that weight class. Maybe Sean Sherk...Wait, didnt he just fight a Canadian dude? Some dude with a THICK frenchy accent. What was that guy name? Oh YEAH! it was The Rush St.Pierre. Can you say "Spawl 'N Brawl"

As for being WORLD CLASS in BJJ, that just mean you can get paid mad cash for seminars. Check it, Frank Mir isnt World Class or a Black Belt but SCHOOLS ****ers on the ground. Hell, he isnt impressive at lower end grap turneys. Ricco Rod. is world class and barely tapps anyone. Anderson Silva has a black belt, and Im not impress in his grappling. World class grappler and havving a black belt DONT MEAN SHIT if your style doesnt adapt to MMA. BJ's bjj from his back is NOT impressive. If he is on top, EVERYONE in ALL weight divisions would have trouble.

In "MMA" BJ on his back is about as good as having a Harem with no penis.


Randy Couture had problems keeping BJ down and was subbed by BJ. (For those who dont know, BJ went to train with Randy and that is what Randy said)

Training really dont mean shit dude. Rampage says Tito wrecks him in training, but you think it'd go down like that in a fight? Listen, Miller is a brown belt, and has great Jiu Jitsu, ****in great, he couldn't mount nothing against Rush. You act like I am trying to attack BJ Penn, I am trying to look at this from an unbiased point of view, and IMO, Penn can't bring nothing against St. Pierre that he hasnt seen or delt with already....

Training really dont mean shit dude. Rampage says Tito wrecks him in training, but you think it'd go down like that in a fight? Listen, Miller is a brown belt, and has great Jiu Jitsu, ****in great, he couldn't mount nothing against Rush. You act like I am trying to attack BJ Penn, I am trying to look at this from an unbiased point of view, and IMO, Penn can't bring nothing against St. Pierre that he hasnt seen or delt with already....


Listen, Miller is a brown belt, and has great Jiu Jitsu, ****in great, he couldn't mount nothing against Rush.

I hear you, but BJ Penn is a Black Belt, one of the quickest black belts in BJJ (3 Years and 4 months). Won the mundials as a black belt. He has sick skills! He then went to mma to test himself because he fought a mma fighter in Ralph Gracie's School. He fought Din Thomas who was top ten and won by how?
He knew he found his forte.
Skipping some fights, he climbed up in weight and fought Matt Hughes, who dismantled everyone except a person named Dennis Hallman. (who Hughes lost to twice by sub!)
Hughes said that it is disrespectful for BJ to climb weight and challenge for his title. The kid will know that he made a mistake after the first round. 90 percent or even more posted on the internet that Penn would get killed by a stronger, more skilled fighter who is the champion. When Penn won, the 90 percent said it was a fluke or made excuses on why Hughes lost and in a rematch Hughes would win. When Penn fought in K-1 and stripped of his title, those people who thought Penn would lose vs. Hughes called him scared and doesnt want to defend the title vs Hughes. They said Penn ran away and blah blah blah.
Now Penn is back, no excuses anymore. GSP is in the way for Penn to take back his title that was stripped from him.

So I can understand why Hughes nuthuggers want GSP to win. GSP lost to Hughes already. They want GSP to beat Penn so that Hughes doesnt have to face Penn again. IMO.

I'm not a Hughes nuthugger, as a matter of fact, I dont even like Hughes all that much, I like him about the same as I like Penn. I've always said it was a great victory for Penn, read some of my posts in this thread if you doubt this. I was there dude, I seen it live. I thought GSP was beating Hughes before he overcommited to that Kimura. It's my opinion that he'll be the next WW Champ...

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