View Full Version : What if tyson had holyfield's heart he would have been the greatest champion ever...


Baddest man on da planet
12-28-2005, 10:14 AM
like now tyson has all the tool and skills to become champion but has no heart to fight no more but if and its the opposite with holyfield he got the heart to fight but his skills are not there no more.

M26
12-28-2005, 11:54 AM
I am not sure about Tysons skills at this point. His reflexes seems to be long gone, and this makes him a stationary target. With no reflexes, his lack of size becomes a real problem, because he is no longer able to get under the opponents arms like he used to.

How ever, I agree in that Tyson would do alot better with Holyfields fighting heart (I am sure he would beat McBride for instance).

And if the prime Tyson had Holys heart (together with better stamina!), he could possibly become the greatest heavyweight of all time.

Brassangel
12-28-2005, 12:11 PM
Even with his skills alone he had a shot at becoming one of the greatest. If you added in the heart of someone like Holyfield, Tyson would have been 50-0. This is an interesting crossover; does this mean that Tyson might have bitten off his own ear instead? :lol1:

Tyson was already beating McBride, he just didn't have the heart to finish. That basically sums up his career in a nutshell.

opethdrums
12-28-2005, 02:40 PM
i think it's also important to think about what he DID do. his training regimen was HELL when he was a kid. I don't know if he had a choice either.

Dempsey 1919
12-28-2005, 03:50 PM
he wouldn't have beaten ali.

blockhead
12-28-2005, 05:49 PM
he wouldn't have beaten ali.
NUTHUGGGGGGERRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Verstyle
12-28-2005, 06:04 PM
he wouldn't have beaten ali.


we all say what ali did whenever he got pressured besides foreman.

Dempsey 1919
12-28-2005, 06:13 PM
we all say what ali did whenever he got pressured besides foreman.

tyson couldn't hurt ali.

Verstyle
12-28-2005, 06:16 PM
tyson couldn't hurt ali.


tyson couldnt hurt ali.ahahahaha. jus cause george was hitting hard and wild and missing alot doesnt mean tyson will do the same. He was presice with his shots jus look at his hit percentage in the 80's it was almost 50% in every fight :eek: plus he bobbed and weaved also to find openings for his opponents not jus for defense. ;)

Southpaw16
12-28-2005, 06:22 PM
Tyson's physical abilities combined with Holyfield's heart and brains probably would have made the greatest fighter ever.

It is too bad Holyfield has become so freaking punch drunk. If he had ended his career early and kept his brains intact I'll bet Holyfield would have made a great trainer.

Brassangel
12-28-2005, 10:34 PM
Yeah, Foreman didn't have strategy against Ali, and Ali's style was great against a guy like Foreman. The same couldn't be said for a Tyson, or a SuperTyson which we're discussing here. He would have beaten Ali in this condition. We all know that Ali-homers think he was untouchable, but if they have actually watched his fights, then they know the truth...

Ali was the best, that, I believe. A Tyson with heart would have been better. He could have hurt Ali, he could hurt anybody. And Ali's chin wasn't the strongest when it was met by a clean punch. A Tyson with heart would have landed plenty of clean punches; clean, devastating, punches.

hellfire508
12-29-2005, 07:37 AM
Butterfly I love Ali, but you are blinded by love. Tyson COULD hurt Ali. Whether he would is another story. And Tyson COULD beat Ali. Whether he would is far another story.

Brassangel
12-29-2005, 05:59 PM
I agree with you, hellfire. I think that this is precisely the problem when it comes to discussing politics and sports: we tend to let emotions and opinions supercede the facts and possibilities. While these are usually hypothetical scenarios, there are plenty of evidences to support what people suggest. We're not saying that Tyson would own, destroy, knockout, or even defeat Ali; the obviousness of the truth would be that it was more than likely that he could have. Especially if a guy like Frazier did it.

Back to the topic at hand. I think that a Mike Tyson with a Holyfield heart is basically what everybody builds when they play the Fight Night series. I heard recently that EA has not included Tyson in Fight Night 3...again. Blah...

Fight_Nightx
12-29-2005, 07:59 PM
All these threads about Tyson are getting sooooo old...

supaduck
12-30-2005, 01:42 PM
Then don't view them. It's not like your being forced to view anything on this forum.

Brassangel
12-30-2005, 02:29 PM
Maybe they are getting old, but then discussion about fighters before his time are technically older, aren't they?

Mike Tyson had absolute greatness within his grasp and he opened the window, threw it out, and then farted in the same direction to prevent it from wanting to return. His career is fascinating to boxing fans, and even general sports fans, so chances are, it will never cease to be an important topic of discussion.

Dempsey 1919
12-30-2005, 03:06 PM
tyson couldnt hurt ali.ahahahaha. jus cause george was hitting hard and wild and missing alot doesnt mean tyson will do the same. He was presice with his shots jus look at his hit percentage in the 80's it was almost 50% in every fight :eek: plus he bobbed and weaved also to find openings for his opponents not jus for defense. ;)

norton hit ali alot, so did bonavena, and frazier, and they didn't really hurt him.

Brassangel
12-30-2005, 05:59 PM
In all fairness, Butterfly, Ali was hurt. The psychological advantage he had over his opponenets was his ability to twist his opponent's perception. Many fighters claimed that they could never tell whether or not Ali was hurt, which made it difficult to gauge where an attack was necessary. Also, a broken jaw would hurt no matter who you are. What this shows is that Ali had tremendous heart.

Also, Tyson's body shots were notorious for causing nausea and even internal bleeding. When he had a plan of attack during his heyday, he attacked the body of a taller person like Rocky did to a hanging piece of meat. That would hurt, no matter who you are. Nonetheless, Ali wins 2/3.

And yeah, a Tyson with the heart of Holyfield would wreck house.

supaduck
12-31-2005, 02:13 PM
Yeah, that's true. But the real point is, he didn't have Holyfield's heart.

Verstyle
12-31-2005, 03:25 PM
norton hit ali alot, so did bonavena, and frazier, and they didn't really hurt him.


those punches didnt come as fast as tyson always remember speed=power ;) and tyson was already a hardhitter without the speed

supaduck
12-31-2005, 03:32 PM
I wonder what it was made him such a hard hitter :boxing:

Brassangel
01-01-2006, 03:36 PM
Explosiveness and timing. Power distribution is important in increasing the impact of a punch. If you lock up your arm, or waste power on backswing, it's going to wear the puncher out before the defender. His short arms allowed him to better throw 215 pounds into his opponent. That + timing the release of energy + speed = wowzah! I can only imagine what it would have been like with 4-8 oz. gloves from the pre-WW2 days.

legend_killer
01-02-2006, 02:17 AM
norton hit ali alot, so did bonavena, and frazier, and they didn't really hurt him.
Butterfly, that has to be the most inaccurate Muhammad Ali quote I have ever seen. You have just stated that Ken Norton and Joe Frazier did not really hurt Ali.

Are you forgetting that Norton is the man that broke Ali's jaw in their first fight? Or that Ali's three fights with Frazier did more damage to Ali than any other fights in his career?

Clearly, you are just so in love with the legend of Ali that you are not looking at this with a non-biased point of view. This makes your argument pointless. If you can back up any of your statements, then I will relent. Just saying "Tyson couldn't hurt Ali" does not prove a thing. Grow up!

Back on track, Tyson would have been one of the greatest had he kept his head on straight. He was dangerous enough that he could have taken out any of the major heavyweights of all time, including Ali. Of course, we will never know just how great Tyson could have been had that happened.

Dempsey 1919
01-02-2006, 02:24 AM
those punches didnt come as fast as tyson always remember speed=power ;) and tyson was already a hardhitter without the speed

also shavers hit ali alot, and ali was done at that time, and nothing really happened, and IMO, shavers punches harder than tyson.

Dempsey 1919
01-02-2006, 02:27 AM
Butterfly, that has to be the most inaccurate Muhammad Ali quote I have ever seen. You have just stated that Ken Norton and Joe Frazier did not really hurt Ali.

Are you forgetting that Norton is the man that broke Ali's jaw in their first fight? Or that Ali's three fights with Frazier did more damage to Ali than any other fights in his career?

Clearly, you are just so in love with the legend of Ali that you are not looking at this with a non-biased point of view. This makes your argument pointless. If you can back up any of your statements, then I will relent. Just saying "Tyson couldn't hurt Ali" does not prove a thing. Grow up!

Back on track, Tyson would have been one of the greatest had he kept his head on straight. He was dangerous enough that he could have taken out any of the major heavyweights of all time, including Ali. Of course, we will never know just how great Tyson could have been had that happened.

alright, maybe i should rephrase what i said. ali wasn't badly hurt. maybe tyson could rock him a little, but couldn't do enough damage to ko him. maybe he might go down, but he would be up at the count of three or four at the most.

legend_killer
01-02-2006, 02:52 AM
alright, maybe i should rephrase what i said. ali wasn't badly hurt. maybe tyson could rock him a little, but couldn't do enough damage to ko him. maybe he might go down, but he would be up at the count of three or four at the most.
I will look at this with an open mind. Tyson and Ali are two of my favourite fighters of all time. When I play Fight Night 2004, I always play as Ali. Yet I will always be left unsatisfied until they put Tyson and Ali in a game together, so I can create my ultimate dream fight.

Who would I pick to win? That's a tough call. That would be like asking me who I like better. I cannot give a simple answer for that, because both fighters are from different generations and are not anything like each other. The only thing they have in common is that they were both young champions who the public idolised. The major difference is Tyson lost his nerve and went on a downward spiral, while Ali fought on and basked in glory.

Does that make Ali better than Tyson in a reflecting sense? Yes. Does it make Ali better than Tyson in a pondering sense? I say no. It was the fight we never saw and will never get to see. The lightning fast hands of Tyson against the lightning fast hands of Ali. To judge one man above another is unfair to both men.

As far as this thread goes, the topic was how great Tyson would be if he had Holyfield's heart. We do not base this on how Tyson's career wound down after losing to Buster Douglas. This is based on what Tyson would have accomplished had he possessed Holyfield's heart and love of the sport at the beginning of his career. There is no way to tell what he would have accomplished, but there is no doubt that he would have achieved a lot more than he did in reality.

XionComrade
01-02-2006, 02:11 PM
Tyson had alot of heart really, if you listen to the Tyson corner in the McBride fight before the stoppage it goes like...Fenech-Im the Fuggin boss, Im stopping the fight! Im the fugin boss!!!(Fenech is a ******!) Tyson-Nononono....Someone needs to kill Jeff Fenech, he sucks and is not better than Kostya...

XionComrade
01-02-2006, 02:15 PM
also shavers hit ali alot, and ali was done at that time, and nothing really happened, and IMO, shavers punches harder than tyson.

Earnie Shavers and Gerry Cooney are the two hardest hitters in boxing history...Shavers hit twice as hard as Tyson easily, but it was always one at a time...Tyson was 5 in one second.

supaduck
01-03-2006, 02:34 PM
Earnie Shavers and Gerry Cooney are the two hardest hitters in boxing history...Shavers hit twice as hard as Tyson easily, but it was always one at a time...Tyson was 5 in one second.

Wrong. George Foreman hit harder than them both (despite what Ali says, he was older in his fight with Shavers and was easier to hit, and George Foreman didn't land a single proper punch on Ali). And Shavers did not hit "twice as hard" as Tyson, he simply hit reasonably harder.

Yogi
01-03-2006, 02:47 PM
Wrong. George Foreman hit harder than them both (despite what Ali says, he was older in his fight with Shavers and was easier to hit, and George Foreman didn't land a single proper punch on Ali).

Hmm...along with Ali, I guess both Jimmy Young and Ron Lyle are wrong, as well, considering I have quotes from them where they stated that they both thought Shavers hit them harder than anyone else did, including Foreman, who fought them both.

Speaking of Shavers' punching power;

"Oooh man, that man is always with me. He hit so hard, THE HARDEST. I still feel his punches today." - Jimmy Young

"Shavers hit me so hard that it felt like needles were jabbing the back of my head. Without hesitation, Shavers was the hardest puncher I met." - Ron Lyle

Both can be found in the Oct 2001 issue of The Ring.

Brassangel
01-03-2006, 02:54 PM
While guys like Shavers and Foreman hit harder that Tyson in the purest sense of the word "power," their punches were telegraphed as well. One of the things that made Tyson's power punches so devastating was that they came with speed. An unexpected shot that lands cleanly will have a greater effect on the chemicals in the head of a fighter than would a haymaker from a hard puncher. This is evident in many fights where seemingly weak punchers knocked down guys with great chins.

On a side note: Ali got up on the early counts because he had great presence of mind. Most fighters will take their break on the canvas when they get knocked down to fully recouperate. Ali knew the psychological advantage he could gain over his opponent by standing straight up after a knockdown. It's demoralizing to see a fighter get up quickly after taking your best shot. You should also note carefully how Ali typically had to hold the ropes to brace himself while the referee would count as well. Ali got hurt many times in his career. He didn't have a chin of steel, he had a mind of steel and a bag of wits. He knew how to gain an advantage over an opponent even when the opponent was technically winning.

supaduck
01-03-2006, 05:02 PM
Orginally Posted by Yogi
Hmm...along with Ali, I guess both Jimmy Young and Ron Lyle are wrong, as well, considering I have quotes from them where they stated that they both thought Shavers hit them harder than anyone else did, including Foreman, who fought them both.

Speaking of Shavers' punching power;

"Oooh man, that man is always with me. He hit so hard, THE HARDEST. I still feel his punches today." - Jimmy Young

"Shavers hit me so hard that it felt like needles were jabbing the back of my head. Without hesitation, Shavers was the hardest puncher I met." - Ron Lyle

Both can be found in the Oct 2001 issue of The Ring.

Well, i'd never read those quotes, or heard about them. I knew Shavers hit hard, but never knew he hit that hard. harder than Foreman? Jesus Christ.

XionComrade
01-04-2006, 04:51 PM
Anyone know what Lyle, Norton, and Holmes said about Cooney's power? Shavers and Cooney hit noticably harder than anyone else in Boxing History. Cooney almost killed Norton(No way Norton would have lived had the ref not stepped in when he did, 2-3 seconds later and it would have been all over...) and Shavers made everyone feel his punches for ever...So did Cooney for Holmes but that was the mother of all low blows lol!

And yes I would say (IMO) that Shavers had twice the power that Tyson did, yes he was telegraphed like heck and Tyson would KO him early, but he still hit a rediculous ammount harder than Tyson could.

Yes Shavers hit harder, it doesn't seem like it because Foreman was a freaking beast, but Shavers "Punched like something from another planet" as Holmes put it so nicely.

Dempsey 1919
01-04-2006, 05:04 PM
ya'll are saying this in the wrong thread.

Brassangel
01-04-2006, 05:29 PM
I was going to say the same thing...this really has nothing to do with Tyson having a heart transplant anymore.

Then again, every thread has this happen. :hijacked:

Yogi
01-05-2006, 12:47 AM
Anyone know what Lyle, Norton, and Holmes said about Cooney's power?

I might have some quotes from them regarding Cooney's punching power (I'll have a look), but I know of one guy offhand who was impressed with Cooney's power than he was with Tyson's...

Nino Ribalta, who sparred Cooney on occasion and had fought Tyson in '86, is quoted as saying that Big Gerry had a significant edge in pure punching power over Mike.

Brassangel
01-05-2006, 05:49 PM
A lot of fighters had more punching power than Tyson. It was style and speed that made Mike's so effective.

Shavers could bring down a house, by the way. A young George Foreman would likely do the same.

jspivey
01-12-2006, 06:07 PM
If Tyson had Holyfields heart, the fights he lost would've turned into beatings. Tyson like any other human is getting old
his skills are fading. I don't heart would've done him any goo now. Maybe earlier in his carrer if he had it, people wouldn't down talk him like they do now.

jspivey
01-12-2006, 06:20 PM
tyson couldn't hurt ali.

True enough Ali could take a punch. He could take a hell of a punch. But if Tyson had him on the ropes like Frazier did its over. I love Ali, but to say Tyson couldn't hurt him is crazy.

Brassangel
01-13-2006, 02:01 AM
Tyson's style would have been a nightmare for Ali. In many situations, Mike had the ability to cut off a ring faster than Ali could backpedal (as a fast, forward runner could always out-maneuver someone running backwards). He came at opponents with both hands and often worked behind a jab. His defense was better than Frazier's, his speed was quicker than Patterson's, and he attacked the body like no one Ali had ever faced.

Would Tyson beat Ali? I doubt it. The only chance he would have would have been in fight number one. After that, Ali would have figured something out to take fights two and three. Could Tyson hurt Ali? Yes. A resounding YES! What could have happened if Tyson had Holyfield's heart? That's like asking for Reggie Bush to play at USC his Senior year...yeah right...

Brockton Lip
01-13-2006, 02:29 AM
Good post as usual.

If Tyson gets Holyfield's heart, we might as well give Ali the punching power of Marciano. If if if; theres alot of if's that could be said.

Dempsey 1919
01-13-2006, 02:54 AM
ali is my favorite, and i think the greatest fighter of all time, and i dont think i have ever said anything even slightly insulting to ali, but you are one dumb nutthugger.

tyson is not as fast as ali so the few punches that tyson would hit him with would not be enough to take it's toll, is what i'm trying to say.

and name-calling will not bolster your argument nor increase your popularity on this forum, so i don't see your point in doing that.

marvdave
01-13-2006, 03:03 AM
what if Tyson wasn't an idiot? what if Tyson trained properly? what if Tyson wasn't a thug? What if Tyson .................etc.etc,etc....