View Full Version : Who Would get Knocked Down First if prime liston vs prime tyson...........


Baddest man on da planet
12-27-2005, 04:49 PM
and who would win i think tyson would get the first knock down because he could get inside early but as the fight gets longer he workrate gets less. but i dont know who wins. i think it would be a dec for 1 of these 2

Brassangel
12-27-2005, 04:56 PM
On another post I stated that there would be a slated three fights. I imagine that Liston would get knocked down first, and if he managed to get up, it would be a bloody mess until the end. Fight 2 would see each fighter take a little more caution. Fight 3 wouldn't happen because they'd fight at the hearing and lose their license or something. Mike would bite Liston's big toe off and Liston would have Mike shot. His metal teeth would slow the bullet enough to survive the wound and they both quit the sport.

Okay, so I'm off topic here. It's Holyfield's fault.

Frieking Holyfield...

Dempsey 1919
12-27-2005, 04:59 PM
ever seen frazier-foreman? enough said. liston takes tyson's head off in two or three rounds, tyson goes down about seven times, starting in the first round. liston is hit with a good shot maybe once or twice but is nowhere near going down.

Brassangel
12-27-2005, 05:14 PM
Ever seen Jones vs. Tarver? Enough said. What did that have to do with this fight? Nothing. Just like Foreman vs. Frazier has nothing to do with this match.

What that fight does show, however, is that Frazier and Tyson were different fighters. While they had similar ways of approaching speed fighters, Tyson had much more ability to avoid a punch than Frazier. Tyson was faster than Frazier. Tyson could hit harder and with more ferocity than Frazier. George Foreman had reach, and Frazier never even attempted to attack Big George's body, instead getting clobbered by straight punches for two rounds. Tyson was a surgeon when it came to diffusing the body of a fighter with reach advantages. Tyson would duck and dodge his way into Liston's body and pop off a few comboed shots before Sonny knew what was going on. When Liston realized that his opponent was faster, his strategy would have to change. After that point, Sonny would eventually find a way to control the fight if his temper stayed put.

A part of me wonders if you, Butterfly, enjoy portraying Sonny Liston as the greatest to make Ali look that much better. They would both rank higher on my list than Tyson, don't make any mistakes about that. But we have little to no real evidence of how a fight between Tyson and Liston would have ended up. That's why it's a theoretical discussion. As long as you make sweeping statements without evidence, like "So and so would win, no questions asked!..." etc. etc., I will be here to banter with you. I consider us a comic book duo. Cheers.

Dempsey 1919
12-27-2005, 05:23 PM
Ever seen Jones vs. Tarver? Enough said. What did that have to do with this fight? Nothing. Just like Foreman vs. Frazier has nothing to do with this match.

What that fight does show, however, is that Frazier and Tyson were different fighters. While they had similar ways of approaching speed fighters, Tyson had much more ability to avoid a punch than Frazier. Tyson was faster than Frazier. Tyson could hit harder and with more ferocity than Frazier. George Foreman had reach, and Frazier never even attempted to attack Big George's body, instead getting clobbered by straight punches for two rounds. Tyson was a surgeon when it came to diffusing the body of a fighter with reach advantages. Tyson would duck and dodge his way into Liston's body and pop off a few comboed shots before Sonny knew what was going on. When Liston realized that his opponent was faster, his strategy would have to change. After that point, Sonny would eventually find a way to control the fight if his temper stayed put.

A part of me wonders if you, Butterfly, enjoy portraying Sonny Liston as the greatest to make Ali look that much better. They would both rank higher on my list than Tyson, don't make any mistakes about that. But we have little to no real evidence of how a fight between Tyson and Liston would have ended up. That's why it's a theoretical discussion. As long as you make sweeping statements without evidence, like "So and so would win, no questions asked!..." etc. etc., I will be here to banter with you. I consider us a comic book duo. Cheers.

frazier is similar to tyson, and foreman is similar to liston. it's a bad style matchup. it's just the way it would come out.

Brassangel
12-27-2005, 11:34 PM
Similar, but not identical. Liston wouldn't have 4-5 inches of height on Tyson like Foreman did against Frazier. Liston wouldn't get clean blows to the oncoming head of Tyson like Foreman did against Frazier. Those two factors alone seem to nullify your argument.

I think that most people would agree that this would be a fight for the ages, not a quick, lopsided battle.

Brassangel
12-27-2005, 11:35 PM
In fact, boxing simulator research performed over the past 5 years has Tyson winning this contest 84.3% of the time. I don't think it would be quite that one-sided, but it shows that the factors don't see this is as a Frazier vs. Foreman scenario.

Pugnacious_Z
12-27-2005, 11:47 PM
liston was 6ft 1, tyson was 5ft 11". 2inche difference which is nuthin. whereas foreman was 6ft 4 and frazier 5ft 10, 6 inches which is big. liston was lighter then tyson or same. he wudnt be able to push tyson back like foreman did frazier.

Brassangel
12-28-2005, 11:30 AM
Foreman had 15 pounds at his slimmest over Frazier, didn't he? Tyson weighed 5-8 pounds more than Liston at most times, if I'm not mistaken.

Dempsey 1919
12-28-2005, 02:53 PM
Foreman had 15 pounds at his slimmest over Frazier, didn't he? Tyson weighed 5-8 pounds more than Liston at most times, if I'm not mistaken.

foreman in his prime was like 220-225. frazier was 205-210. liston was 215-220. tyson was about the same as liston.

but liston's reach is longer than foreman's, so he could keep opponents away with his jab better than foreman.

Dempsey 1919
12-28-2005, 02:53 PM
liston was 6ft 1, tyson was 5ft 11". 2inche difference which is nuthin. whereas foreman was 6ft 4 and frazier 5ft 10, 6 inches which is big. liston was lighter then tyson or same. he wudnt be able to push tyson back like foreman did frazier.

foreman was 6'-3", and frazier was 5'-11".

blockhead
12-28-2005, 03:23 PM
ever seen frazier-foreman? enough said. liston takes tyson's head off in two or three rounds, tyson goes down about seven times, starting in the first round. liston is hit with a good shot maybe once or twice but is nowhere near going down.
another stupid post from buttfly. no way ever does liston win this fight. tyson was faster stronger smarter and he had a desire to win in his prime that would wave buried liston. liston would have taken a dive for 100 bucks anyways just like he did for ali.

Brassangel
12-28-2005, 09:46 PM
another stupid post from buttfly. no way ever does liston win this fight. tyson was faster stronger smarter and he had a desire to win in his prime that would wave buried liston. liston would have taken a dive for 100 bucks anyways just like he did for ali.

While I do think Tyson would win, I doubt that it would have been lopsided. Liston would have held on simply because he had a reach. He wasn't swift enough, nor were his reflexes quick enough to keep away an attacking Tyson. Foreman could punch down at a crab-like Frazier who plodded towards his opponents at a much slower pace that Tyson did. The 1 1/2" that Liston had in height over Tyson means he basically would have been punching straight towards Tyson which is easier for Mike to slip. The 5"-6" height advantage Foreman had over Frazier effectively makes his reach that much greater. It's just science. Throwing downhill has significant advantages to throwing perpendicular. Furthermore, it effectively leaves Liston open for a longer period of time because Tyson wouldn't have to try too hard to expend energy in an upwards motion. This gives Tyson's short reach more leverage than Frazier's could have had against Foreman, along with far more power.

Tyson + multiple advantages = goodnight Liston. I still think it would be a brawl to the finish for two or three fights though.

They should attach a poll to this thread.

Pugnacious_Z
12-29-2005, 12:42 AM
LISTON had no HEART

Dude
12-29-2005, 01:10 AM
LISTON had no HEART

Neither has Tyson.

Liston gets the first knockdown and wins this fight via KO.

Tyson never faced an opponent close to Listons skills in his so-called prime. Liston on the other hand beat, guess who, Floyd Patterson twice via 1st round KO.

Now we all know that Cus D'Amato perfected his style in Tyson and Patterson. Tyson was faster though and had more power (though his power is overrated) in both hands.

Stylewise Mike Tyson would have a hard time against Liston as Sonny possesed a good, strong jab and was strong enough to hold Tyson if he came to close. As usual Tyson would face a reach and height disadvantage. Liston was more than the unskilled brawler as which he's often presented today. He was fundamentaly sound and had an above average defense by his areas high standards.

Personally I don't believe that Tyson himself would be convinced that he could actually win this fight. Much like why he never wanted a piece of Foreman. There's no way he would intimidate Liston. I'd be the other way round actually.

Prime Tyson loses to a stronger, bigger Liston via 7th round KO. He has his moments before this due to his handspeed and angle-hitting. Ulitmately Liston walks him down and wins the fight with a devastating right that sents a frustrated and beaten Tyson to the canvas.

Pugnacious_Z
12-29-2005, 03:14 AM
Tysons chin was better, they hit with around same power, tyson had more heart seeing dat he always took a beating b4 losing, Tysons faster, sharper, more skillful, tyson wud will middle rounds, but it cud also go other way around. and for u sayin tysoin didnt wanna fight foreman, well foreman was better then liston in every way

Dempsey 1919
12-29-2005, 11:18 AM
Tysons chin was better, they hit with around same power, tyson had more heart seeing dat he always took a beating b4 losing, Tysons faster, sharper, more skillful, tyson wud will middle rounds, but it cud also go other way around. and for u sayin tysoin didnt wanna fight foreman, well foreman was better then liston in every way

haha, tyson's chin was better. good one. tyson was ko'd 5 times, three of those times by bums. liston was stopped twice by ali, and the second time he faked it, and he was ko'd by a top contender in leotis martin after flooring martin in the 3rd or 4th when liston was 37 yrs. old. so who has the better chin now? liston and tyson's handspeed was the same.

haha again, "foreman was better than liston in every way", another good joke. the only thing foreman had on liston was punching power and that's it, and not even that much punching power. liston had quicker hands, his punches were way more accurate and he was just an all round better boxer. heck, an old ali made foreman look even more dumb than a young ali made liston look.

bottom line, think before you post Pugnacious_Z, please! :boxing:

Dempsey 1919
12-29-2005, 11:23 AM
another stupid post from buttfly. no way ever does liston win this fight. tyson was faster stronger smarter and he had a desire to win in his prime that would wave buried liston. liston would have taken a dive for 100 bucks anyways just like he did for ali.

number one, stop calling me buttfly, ok! :mad: number two, no way was tyson stronger, in punching power, or physical strength. tyson was manhandled by a cruiserweight moron! liston has the longest reach of any hw champ in history! no way does tyson get in to liston period! watch how liston destroyed a hof'er in his prime, cleveland williams! tyson never beat a hof hw when they were in their prime. friggin' bruno rocked a prime tyson, so imagine what liston could do to him.

Brassangel
12-29-2005, 05:18 PM
Bruno rocked...and then lost to Tyson. Liston proved his lack of heart when he went up against a guy with speed. Patterson sat in the corner in both fights and waited to get beat by Liston. George Foreman would have dominated Liston, as his power over Sonny and height give a virtual and physical advantage that Liston couldn't overcome. While it's true that a beyond his years Ali defeated George, that was a style issue. Liston didn't fight in any way like Ali, and didn't make as much use of his reach as everybody seems to think. An arm that long is easier to dodge for a moving Tyson. You people obviously know nothing of science.

Obviously we have entered a vacuum here, with half of the population stating that one side would dominate the other. I must be the only one who thinks that this would be a great fight. Saying that Tyson fought bums is ignorant, as their is a universe of difference in the conditioning of the two eras. Again, nobody here seems to understand science.

On a side note, Leotis Martin was a tool, but so was Sonny Liston after 1963. Secondly, I believe that Dude made some very strong arguments, and I appreciate his input. Butterfly, on the other hand, who I normally have respect for, shows once again that he believes anybody fighting during Ali's era must have been better than the boxers of any other era. Obviously, you are touting Liston as a superfighter to make Ali's victory seem that much greater. That's a common theme across the boards for you, it seems.

Sonny Liston was great. He hit hard, he had reach, and he had intimidation. Mike Tyson hit harder than any opponent Liston faced, so I doubt he could merely wear Mike out; Mike was faster than Liston, and had better defense against lead punches. This would be a mid-to-late brawl, which would end in a knockout in the 7th or 8th round, probably in favor of Iron Mike.

P.S. Liston didn't fake that knockdown against Ali in their second fight. He described it to his wife and later interviewers as a dizzying shot to the temple. He was forced to spin in circles while Ali danced around the ring, which naturally messed with the chemicals in a guy's head (especially since Liston didn't like to chase people), and then, without warning, *pop!* a blind hook catches him in the temple. That's how Sonny Liston described it in his own words. "There's a chance that a punch like that could catch anybody..." he said later. While Ali wasn't known for being a slugger, he was still a heavyweight, which means there's power in there occassionally. If Liston could suffer such a fate to a guy who hit like Ali, I'd hate to see what a guy like Tyson would do to Lison with a few good *pops!*. Old or otherwise.

Still would have been a great fight.

Dempsey 1919
12-29-2005, 07:24 PM
Bruno rocked...and then lost to Tyson. Liston proved his lack of heart when he went up against a guy with speed. Patterson sat in the corner in both fights and waited to get beat by Liston. George Foreman would have dominated Liston, as his power over Sonny and height give a virtual and physical advantage that Liston couldn't overcome. While it's true that a beyond his years Ali defeated George, that was a style issue. Liston didn't fight in any way like Ali, and didn't make as much use of his reach as everybody seems to think. An arm that long is easier to dodge for a moving Tyson. You people obviously know nothing of science.

Obviously we have entered a vacuum here, with half of the population stating that one side would dominate the other. I must be the only one who thinks that this would be a great fight. Saying that Tyson fought bums is ignorant, as their is a universe of difference in the conditioning of the two eras. Again, nobody here seems to understand science.

On a side note, Leotis Martin was a tool, but so was Sonny Liston after 1963. Secondly, I believe that Dude made some very strong arguments, and I appreciate his input. Butterfly, on the other hand, who I normally have respect for, shows once again that he believes anybody fighting during Ali's era must have been better than the boxers of any other era. Obviously, you are touting Liston as a superfighter to make Ali's victory seem that much greater. That's a common theme across the boards for you, it seems.

Sonny Liston was great. He hit hard, he had reach, and he had intimidation. Mike Tyson hit harder than any opponent Liston faced, so I doubt he could merely wear Mike out; Mike was faster than Liston, and had better defense against lead punches. This would be a mid-to-late brawl, which would end in a knockout in the 7th or 8th round, probably in favor of Iron Mike.

P.S. Liston didn't fake that knockdown against Ali in their second fight. He described it to his wife and later interviewers as a dizzying shot to the temple. He was forced to spin in circles while Ali danced around the ring, which naturally messed with the chemicals in a guy's head (especially since Liston didn't like to chase people), and then, without warning, *pop!* a blind hook catches him in the temple. That's how Sonny Liston described it in his own words. "There's a chance that a punch like that could catch anybody..." he said later. While Ali wasn't known for being a slugger, he was still a heavyweight, which means there's power in there occassionally. If Liston could suffer such a fate to a guy who hit like Ali, I'd hate to see what a guy like Tyson would do to Lison with a few good *pops!*. Old or otherwise.

Still would have been a great fight.

yeah, i'm elevating ali's opponents. :rolleyes: why can't you just face the fact that they might have been just that good! you say that tyson has more skills than liston. well, let me ask you a question. who has more boxing skills, joe frazier, or george foreman? friggin' frazier that's who! but who would win 10 times out of 10? friggin' foreman that's who! why, cause it's a bad style matchup. everybody expected frazier to wear foreman down and ko him like frazier did to other big men, but it didn't happen, the same applies to tyson and liston. i do believe that tyson has better skills than frazier, and foreman hits harder than liston so it wouldn't last just two rounds, like with foreman-frazier, but it still be a ko or stoppage by about the 5th or 6th round. tyson would just be dominated throughout the fight, the way tyson and frazier goes after opponents would be suicide to guys like liston and foreman. i believe liston could keep opponents away better than foreman, because of his longer reach and quicker hands than foreman, so i believe the fight would be pretty much one-sided.

and to say that liston was really ko'd by a man that couldn't put down doug jones is just hillarious! cleveland williams punches way harder than ali and he couldn't drop liston, and liston was out on his feet multiple times against williams from punishing combinations from the big cat, but sonny didn't go down. so there is no way ali could ko liston with the light punch that took place in lewiston, maine. maybe the way he threw it sent him down possibly, but no way it could keep him down. in fact, liston was down, and he looked across at the fans and saw this guy who expected him to get up. he yelled, "screw you!" cause liston was paid off and just didn't want to fight anymore.

Pugnacious_Z
12-30-2005, 04:39 AM
just so u know, the punch Bruno threw that rocked Tyson was a counter at the perfect time which tyson didnt see and Tyson got hurt for like a second or 2. Bruno is no light puncher like Ali, Bruno was tested to have 600 kilograms behind his punches on one of those punch testers. now imagine 600kg of force throw as a counter punch at the perfect time while not being seen, dats a hell of a punch.
everytime tyson has gone down, its been to many many punches at his head, they might have been bums, but dat doesnt mean they have weak punches seeing that they weigh 100kg+, and i dont care who u are, 20 clean punches at ur head is goin to get u down.
lets go throough his knockouts. First knockout by Buster Douglas. buster douglas was dominating tyson throughout the whole 10 rounds, hittin him with many clean shots, MANY. then after a terrible beating which tyson still sticking in there, buster throws a 4 punch combo which drops tyson, tyson got up 1second to late, i think dats a very good chin and heart.
his second knockout was from Evander holyfield and that was a TKO which means Tyson has a very good chin seeing dat he took plenty punches from evander(even though he isnt hard puncher) and still didnt go down, and they were fukin clean punches. he got knocked down by evander in the 6th but i dont count that seeing dat it was a balance shot and hit tyson on teh gloves for gods sake. After that he got knocked by lennox lewis. Lennox lewis has one of the hardest right hands in Heavyweight History and he gave Tyson one of his worst beatings. in was a mis-match from the second round on. from round 2 and on, Lewis was kickin tysons ass and it got wrose as the rounds went on and Tyson sticked in there takin a brutal beating until the 8th round where lewis landed a very hard right hand which floored tyson, tyson cudve got up i believe but he didnt coz he knew he wud get beat even more if he did. now hows dat a WEAK CHIN, srsly?
then he got knocked by danny williams a bum. danny williams wasnt winnin the figth against Tyson but he landed 22 Clean Hard Punches to Tysons head and tyson fell on the last 1, it was more of a push. tyson cudve gone up, he didnt even look hurt, now hows dat for a CHIN? he has a VERY STRONG CHIN and he had average heart.

DolPhan79
12-30-2005, 04:44 AM
they both suck and boxing history states that

supaduck
12-30-2005, 05:51 AM
Oh really? A boxer who sucks could knock Floyd Patterson out twice in a row in the first round? A boxer who sucks could knock out Michael Spinks in the first round, and KO Larry Holmes (at any point in his career between 1977 and 1990)? Liston and Tyson are both remembered by boxing history as great fighters whose personal lives took their toll on their careers.

DolPhan79
12-30-2005, 06:12 AM
whatever. flip that around because boxing was never THE most important thing in their lives and their dramatic downfalls shows evidence of this

supaduck
12-30-2005, 06:40 AM
Eh? (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ignorant)

I'm sorry I have to reveal this, numbnuts, but that doesn't make them bad boxers, it makes them good boxers who lost focus. :eek: :confused:

DolPhan79
12-30-2005, 06:42 AM
tyson was not a "boxer" he was a bulldog, a slugger...the MOST OVER_RATED piece of work to ever put on the leather

supaduck
12-30-2005, 06:49 AM
Perhaps you would be interested in purchasing this product. (http://img.epinions.com/images/opti/1b/4f/Johnson_s_No_More_Tears_Baby_Shampoo-resized200.gif)

Tyson was overrated, but he was hardly that overrated. I disagree with nuthuggers who claim he was the best ever, but I think he had potential to be one of them. And he was a boxer, he knew his moves and had a strategy. So stop ****ing talking **** about stuff you don't know about.

DolPhan79
12-30-2005, 06:56 AM
dude, He Was The Most Over Rated Boxer in HISTORY. He was garbage. He had some of the best power I've ever seen, but who has he ever beat? An old larry Holmes?! gimme a break

supaduck
12-30-2005, 07:00 AM
duuuude... You really can't let it go. He was a great fighter, he fought bigger men than himself. Michael Spinks was a good boxer. Frank Bruno wasn't bad. He wasn't the most over rated boxer in history, you must think 99% of the world are Tyson nuthuggers.

DolPhan79
12-30-2005, 07:11 AM
99% is pretty damn close. Tyson couldn't help fighting bigger boxers because he was shorter than everybody just about. When it came to fighting a tall boxer who actually boxed like Lennox Lewis, he got schooled. That was the most lopsided HW bout i've ever seen...and I had tears of joy when he went down for the count :op:

supaduck
12-30-2005, 07:24 AM
Tyson '88 would have annihilated Lewis of any era. Everyone with an ounce of intelligence knows that. You seem to think Tyson didn't even box, displaying even greater ignorance than I thought. Where are you from?

blockhead
12-30-2005, 08:20 AM
number one, stop calling me buttfly, ok! :mad: number two, no way was tyson stronger, in punching power, or physical strength. tyson was manhandled by a cruiserweight moron! liston has the longest reach of any hw champ in history! no way does tyson get in to liston period! watch how liston destroyed a hof'er in his prime, cleveland williams! tyson never beat a hof hw when they were in their prime. friggin' bruno rocked a prime tyson, so imagine what liston could do to him.
ok BUTTFLY, you are wrong. you are almost always wrong. you are a nuthugger and a *****. have you watched them both fight? if you have how on alahs green earth can you think that liston takes tyson? you my friend are retarded. plain and simple.

Pugnacious_Z
12-30-2005, 09:27 AM
dolphan, ur a fukin retard. are u actually callin tyson ****, have u ever stepped in the ring *****?

Dude
12-30-2005, 09:28 AM
Tyson '88 would have annihilated Lewis of any era. Everyone with an ounce of intelligence knows that.

Since I have more than an ounce of intelligence I know that Tyson never beats Lewis because Lennox is stylewise aramgeddon for Tyson.

Lewis is just too tall, too powerfull, has a great jab and a sensational right hand. Tyson can't get inside and gets killed at long range. There's nothing he could do about if he doesn't get extremly lucky and Lennox pulls another Rahman.

I don't even get into details for this one because it's so evident.

Dude
12-30-2005, 09:33 AM
they both suck and boxing history states that

This comment is disrespectfull, insulting and retarded all in one. Both are great fighters who were world champions and have achieved more than you could ever dream of. They had (and one of them still has) their problems in their respective lifes aside the boxing ring but if we're talking about boxing both deserve respect for stepping into the ring and producing some legendary nights highlighted by their talent and passion.

If you can't aknowledge a fighter who once was champion of the world you really shouldn't call yourself a "boxing fan".

supaduck
12-30-2005, 11:33 AM
Good posting, Dude, and ok I agree with you on Lewis and Dolphan (he's a ****tard). But I still prefer Tyson as a boxer.

Verstyle
12-30-2005, 12:05 PM
ever seen frazier-foreman? enough said. liston takes tyson's head off in two or three rounds, tyson goes down about seven times, starting in the first round. liston is hit with a good shot maybe once or twice but is nowhere near going down.


ha yeah right. liston has slow hands. did u see how fast tyson bobbing and weaving was?? not alot of ppl talk about his quick defense skills

supaduck
12-30-2005, 12:40 PM
Yeah, too bad he didn't have a true warriors heart.

Brassangel
12-30-2005, 12:47 PM
Holy buckets this thread got out of hand quickly!

First of all, Lewis would be a difficult matchup for Tyson...when he was 36 years old. That was the case in that fight and almost everybody knows that. Heck, Mike even put up an impressive rounds 1 and 2. Had he the quickness, the reflexes, and the ability to take away a fighters reach advantage like he had in the late eighties, he would have gotten to Lewis. It wouldn't have been fast, probably round 5 or so, but it still would have happened. Lewis's greatest advantage was the fact that he was an absolute giant among men, and Tyson was a dwarf. Even so, he overcame that obstacle through the highest part of his career over and over again.

Secondly, Liston wasn't that slow, as some people are suggesting. He was slower than Tyson, however, and his object usually wasn't to keep people outside of himself. To suggest, Butterfly, that Liston would just use his reach to keep Tyson away is obviously a sign of weakness in your study. Sonny Liston would likely take the challenge of facing a bulldog like Tyson, and welcome him in to exchange blows. Sonny Liston was on a short fuse, much like Tyson. Once Mike gets in close, which would be inevitable, his forceful combos would put Liston on the mat at least once. Liston's lack of heart would likely reveal itself again while Tyson stands over him. After all, he was a far more intimidating fighter than Ali; who, by the way, I was giving credit to by describing Liston's 1st round KO at his hands. Liston's people and Ali's people were all caught off guard by that punch. If Sonny didn't want to get up, that's his own fault. If it did go in the way that others believe, where Liston would use his reach (even though reach seemed to be irrelevant against a focused Tyson), then Liston would likely put Tyson down first. Either way, both would have to figure something out, and both would get beat up. Bruises and cuts aplenty!

When Mike Tyson was knocked out during his career, it happened after taking consecutive rounds of beatings and clean shots that would have floored any professional fighter. Against Holyfield he was still standing after taking a 7-punch combo that landed cleanly. The referee stopped the fight, and Tyson kept staring straight at Evander without a hint of dizzyness in his eyes. Mike had a tough chin, but he didn't have much heart in the second chapter of his career. Evander even said he could tell Mike Tyson didn't perform like Mike Tyson in either fight. He said, "When the bell rang, I expected him to come at me like he did against everyone else; ferocious, swinging, attacking, much like Dempsey. When he just stood there in front of me with his gloves up, I shot a few jabs to figure him out and he basically stood still. He didn't move much, or bob and weave, and I could tell this wasn't the same Mike. I was disappointed, as I was hoping to give the crowd a battle. In the second fight, it started a little more promising, until he got disqualified..." Holyfield was a 16:1 underdog in that fight, by the way. When a fighter is a 16:1 favorite over another future hall of famer, that proves that he wasn't garbage. While it's true that he did throw his career away when he was given golden opportunities to be the best, he was still a formidable champion.

I'm not a Tyson-hugger, but to those who think he was worthless: you are even worse than the huggers. To say he didn't fight anybody is to say that no professional is worth his salt unless he ends up in the hall of fame, or he fought in the 60's and 70's. Go tell amateurs who are trying to turn professional that they are nothing unless their name is big. I'm sure you'll get a positive reaction out of them. ;) There weren't many big names because the pool was tremendous in the 80's. The fighters were bigger on average, stronger on average, quicker on average, and more fit on average. It had become the Big 10 of boxing, where every fighter had a chance at taking out the other, therefore rendering domination almost impossible. Tyson just happened to reel off 37 straight against them, and 50 wins in his career, which I guess, makes him a bum. :rolleyes: It would have been tough for any of the greats to survive in a ring full of superb athletes as opposed to a field full of names. You have to research this for yourselves, but look at what happened to boxing after Ali lost to Spinks in 78. The ratings dropped massively, and boxing was no longer the biggest stage in sports. Even when Ali won the rematch, people didn't care. Ali was a travelling circus by that time, and the up and comers had a tough act to follow. People weren't keeping track of the new crop of fighters during the 80's, because boxing was starting to become rediculous with multiple federations, and guys like Don King ruining the sport front to back. Mike Tyson was literally a saviour to boxing; who brought it back to the forefront of sports.

This just goes to show how (sometimes) underrated Tyson is at times, as he was the only one to emerge as something truly special during that era. Mike Tyson was on the verge of absolute greatness. Unfortunately for him and for his fans, the highest point of his rollercoaster stopped just before the flag could be pulled. Now, the sport is being overlooked right now. That doesn't mean that the fighters are garbage now, they just aren't huge names like everyone is used to seeing. Boxing encounters these lapses every so often, but rest assured, it will come back again when another Tyson, Ali, Roy Jones Jr., etc., who are exciting emerge from a field of athletes.

Brassangel
12-30-2005, 12:54 PM
Oh yeah, and this isn't Frazier vs. Foreman. It's not similar in any way. Let's try to avoid using this [horrible] analogy from now on and stick to Tyson vs. Liston if we want this thread to remain worth while.

Verstyle
12-30-2005, 12:54 PM
Holy buckets this thread got out of hand quickly!

First of all, Lewis would be a difficult matchup for Tyson...when he was 36 years old. That was the case in that fight and almost everybody knows that. Heck, Mike even put up an impressive rounds 1 and 2. Had he the quickness, the reflexes, and the ability to take away a fighters reach advantage like he had in the late eighties, he would have gotten to Lewis. It wouldn't have been fast, probably round 5 or so, but it still would have happened. Lewis's greatest advantage was the fact that he was an absolute giant among men, and Tyson was a dwarf. Even so, he overcame that obstacle through the highest part of his career over and over again.

Secondly, Liston wasn't that slow, as some people are suggesting. He was slower than Tyson, however, and his object usually wasn't to keep people outside of himself. To suggest, Butterfly, that Liston would just use his reach to keep Tyson away is obviously a sign of weakness in your study. Sonny Liston would likely take the challenge of facing a bulldog like Tyson, and welcome him in to exchange blows. Sonny Liston was on a short fuse, much like Tyson. Once Mike gets in close, which would be inevitable, his forceful combos would put Liston on the mat at least once. Liston's lack of heart would likely reveal itself again while Tyson stands over him. After all, he was a far more intimidating fighter than Ali; who, by the way, I was giving credit to by describing Liston's 1st round KO at his hands. Liston's people and Ali's people were all caught off guard by that punch. If Sonny didn't want to get up, that's his own fault. If it did go in the way that others believe, where Liston would use his reach (even though reach seemed to be irrelevant against a focused Tyson), then Liston would likely put Tyson down first. Either way, both would have to figure something out, and both would get beat up. Bruises and cuts aplenty!

When Mike Tyson was knocked out during his career, it happened after taking consecutive rounds of beatings and clean shots that would have floored any professional fighter. Against Holyfield he was still standing after taking a 7-punch combo that landed cleanly. The referee stopped the fight, and Tyson kept staring straight at Evander without a hint of dizzyness in his eyes. Mike had a tough chin, but he didn't have much heart in the second chapter of his career. Evander even said he could tell Mike Tyson didn't perform like Mike Tyson in either fight. He said, "When the bell rang, I expected him to come at me like he did against everyone else; ferocious, swinging, attacking, much like Dempsey. When he just stood there in front of me with his gloves up, I shot a few jabs to figure him out and he basically stood still. He didn't move much, or bob and weave, and I could tell this wasn't the same Mike. I was disappointed, as I was hoping to give the crowd a battle. In the second fight, it started a little more promising, until he got disqualified..." Holyfield was a 16:1 underdog in that fight, by the way. When a fighter is a 16:1 favorite over another future hall of famer, that proves that he wasn't garbage. While it's true that he did throw his career away when he was given golden opportunities to be the best, he was still a formidable champion.

I'm not a Tyson-hugger, but to those who think he was worthless: you are even worse than the huggers. To say he didn't fight anybody is to say that no professional is worth his salt unless he ends up in the hall of fame, or he fought in the 60's and 70's. Go tell amateurs who are trying to turn professional that they are nothing unless their name is big. I'm sure you'll get a positive reaction out of them. ;) There weren't many big names because the pool was tremendous in the 80's. The fighters were bigger on average, stronger on average, quicker on average, and more fit on average. It had become the Big 10 of boxing, where every fighter had a chance at taking out the other, therefore rendering domination almost impossible. Tyson just happened to reel off 37 straight against them, and 50 wins in his career, which I guess, makes him a bum. :rolleyes: It would have been tough for any of the greats to survive in a ring full of superb athletes as opposed to a field full of names. You have to research this for yourselves, but look at what happened to boxing after Ali lost to Spinks in 78. The ratings dropped massively, and boxing was no longer the biggest stage in sports. Even when Ali won the rematch, people didn't care. Ali was a travelling circus by that time, and the up and comers had a tough act to follow. People weren't keeping track of the new crop of fighters during the 80's, because boxing was starting to become rediculous with multiple federations, and guys like Don King ruining the sport front to back. Mike Tyson was literally a saviour to boxing; who brought it back to the forefront of sports.

This just goes to show how (sometimes) underrated Tyson is at times, as he was the only one to emerge as something truly special during that era. Mike Tyson was on the verge of absolute greatness. Unfortunately for him and for his fans, the highest point of his rollercoaster stopped just before the flag could be pulled. Now, the sport is being overlooked right now. That doesn't mean that the fighters are garbage now, they just aren't huge names like everyone is used to seeing. Boxing encounters these lapses every so often, but rest assured, it will come back again when another Tyson, Ali, Roy Jones Jr., etc., who are exciting emerge from a field of athletes.


u gotta be a writer u write just like 1

Brassangel
12-30-2005, 12:56 PM
I would like to be a writer, and I'll thank you for saying so. Unfortunately, a person has to drop everything and live off of bologna sandwiches and water to make it as a writer. I just can't afford it; even though my head is swimming with ideas 24:7. Fiction, non-fiction, history, future, sports analysis, you name it, it's in my head.

Dempsey 1919
12-30-2005, 01:03 PM
Holy buckets this thread got out of hand quickly!

First of all, Lewis would be a difficult matchup for Tyson...when he was 36 years old. That was the case in that fight and almost everybody knows that. Heck, Mike even put up an impressive rounds 1 and 2. Had he the quickness, the reflexes, and the ability to take away a fighters reach advantage like he had in the late eighties, he would have gotten to Lewis. It wouldn't have been fast, probably round 5 or so, but it still would have happened. Lewis's greatest advantage was the fact that he was an absolute giant among men, and Tyson was a dwarf. Even so, he overcame that obstacle through the highest part of his career over and over again.

Secondly, Liston wasn't that slow, as some people are suggesting. He was slower than Tyson, however, and his object usually wasn't to keep people outside of himself. To suggest, Butterfly, that Liston would just use his reach to keep Tyson away is obviously a sign of weakness in your study. Sonny Liston would likely take the challenge of facing a bulldog like Tyson, and welcome him in to exchange blows. Sonny Liston was on a short fuse, much like Tyson. Once Mike gets in close, which would be inevitable, his forceful combos would put Liston on the mat at least once. Liston's lack of heart would likely reveal itself again while Tyson stands over him. After all, he was a far more intimidating fighter than Ali; who, by the way, I was giving credit to by describing Liston's 1st round KO at his hands. Liston's people and Ali's people were all caught off guard by that punch. If Sonny didn't want to get up, that's his own fault. If it did go in the way that others believe, where Liston would use his reach (even though reach seemed to be irrelevant against a focused Tyson), then Liston would likely put Tyson down first. Either way, both would have to figure something out, and both would get beat up. Bruises and cuts aplenty!

When Mike Tyson was knocked out during his career, it happened after taking consecutive rounds of beatings and clean shots that would have floored any professional fighter. Against Holyfield he was still standing after taking a 7-punch combo that landed cleanly. The referee stopped the fight, and Tyson kept staring straight at Evander without a hint of dizzyness in his eyes. Mike had a tough chin, but he didn't have much heart in the second chapter of his career. Evander even said he could tell Mike Tyson didn't perform like Mike Tyson in either fight. He said, "When the bell rang, I expected him to come at me like he did against everyone else; ferocious, swinging, attacking, much like Dempsey. When he just stood there in front of me with his gloves up, I shot a few jabs to figure him out and he basically stood still. He didn't move much, or bob and weave, and I could tell this wasn't the same Mike. I was disappointed, as I was hoping to give the crowd a battle. In the second fight, it started a little more promising, until he got disqualified..." Holyfield was a 16:1 underdog in that fight, by the way. When a fighter is a 16:1 favorite over another future hall of famer, that proves that he wasn't garbage. While it's true that he did throw his career away when he was given golden opportunities to be the best, he was still a formidable champion.

I'm not a Tyson-hugger, but to those who think he was worthless: you are even worse than the huggers. To say he didn't fight anybody is to say that no professional is worth his salt unless he ends up in the hall of fame, or he fought in the 60's and 70's. Go tell amateurs who are trying to turn professional that they are nothing unless their name is big. I'm sure you'll get a positive reaction out of them. ;) There weren't many big names because the pool was tremendous in the 80's. The fighters were bigger on average, stronger on average, quicker on average, and more fit on average. It had become the Big 10 of boxing, where every fighter had a chance at taking out the other, therefore rendering domination almost impossible. Tyson just happened to reel off 37 straight against them, and 50 wins in his career, which I guess, makes him a bum. :rolleyes: It would have been tough for any of the greats to survive in a ring full of superb athletes as opposed to a field full of names.

This just goes to show how (sometimes) underrated Tyson is at times, as he was the only one to emerge as something truly special during that era. Mike Tyson was on the verge of absolute greatness. Unfortunately for him and for his fans, the highest point of his rollercoaster stopped just before the flag could be pulled.

let me ask you a question? did tyson fight anybody in his career as good as liston? no! IMO lewis can't punch as hard as liston, so saying that tyson gets a beating before hitting the canvas might not apply that much to liston, since liston punches harder than anybody tyson ever fought. everyone with a brain knows that frazier gets a beating before going down, in fact, even after getting a beating he still doesn't go down! but when he fought foreman, frazier didn't really take a beating before going down 6 times, cause it lasted only two rounds. who's to say tyson, who has a weaker chin than frazier, couldn't go down from one of liston's punches.

and you say that tyson was on the verge of absolute greatness? well, so was liston. who stopped tyson? buster douglass, that's who. some one who in his next fight got schooled by a blown-up cruiserweight. who stopped liston? cassius clay (muhammad ali), that's who, the greatest fighter in the history of mankind! hmmm, i wonder who i'd rather be stopped by? now, lets's examine their careers after those losses. tyson lost to holyfield, lewis, williams and mcbride, two hof'ers and two bums. but holyfield and lewis were way past their prime and still embarrased him. liston lost only one fight after ali, to leotis martin, ranked number 3 contender at that time in 1969. liston floored him in the third (or fourth), and was winning. but liston was 37 yrs. old and that took it's toll. liston was worn down later in the fight and was ko'd in the 6th, but after putting up a good fight. so hmmm, i wonder who really got exposed now, tyson or liston, hmmm? :rolleyes:

Dempsey 1919
12-30-2005, 01:09 PM
ha yeah right. liston has slow hands. did u see how fast tyson bobbing and weaving was?? not alot of ppl talk about his quick defense skills

yeah, liston has slow hands, give me a break. have you ever seen liston fight? patterson is quick, similar to tyson's speed and movement, and liston destroyed him twice in the first. now he couldn't do that if he didn't have quick hands. also liston rocked cassius clay in the third and clay (ali) moves faster than any hw in history, now if liston had slow hands then he just couldn't do that.

supaduck
12-30-2005, 01:12 PM
Sheesh, let go of Ali's nuts for awhile and think. Liston was in his PRIME when Ali beat him. Tyson wasn't anywhere near his, it's obvious, he wasn't fighting like he used to.

Brassangel
12-30-2005, 01:24 PM
Obviously I need to stop expending my writing skills and study of the sport as long as there are fanboys on here who will ignore such banter in favor of milking the private parts of their heroes.

Tyson lost to Douglas, that's true. The same Buster Douglas did not go on to fight Holyfield; a very sloppy, heavy, and much slower Douglas met Evander and it showed. Tyson fought Holyfield when Tyson didn't have a single screw in place in his head. Obviously you didn't read Holyfield's dialogue of his fights with Tyson which I so generously spelled out for you in the previous post.

When Tyson fought Lewis, he was 36; hardly in his prime fighting shape. More or less just trying to get out of debt, I imagine. Against Williams, a torn ligament in the knee will do that to a fighter even when one was clearly winning the match before said injury. A fight can go on without a jaw, but not a leg, especially when it's a source of power. Again, he was 38 years old. Against McBride, Tyson was winning that fight clearly. 40 years of age and a world of criticism were too much for him and he just felt like quitting. In any case, none of the "Tysons" listed here are the ones that would have tackled Liston. Sonny at 37 would have beaten Mike at 37. No contest. Mike Tyson at 21 would have been a handful for anyone at any age, especially Sonny Liston.

Oh, and believe it or not, there are several professional boxers in history who have posted quicker movement and hand speed statistics than Cassius Clay (Ali). He was just incredibly fluid and incredibly intelligent. His was a style that didn't have as many bad matchups as the standard walk-and-slug of his predescessors.

Dempsey 1919
12-30-2005, 01:28 PM
Oh, and believe it or not, there are several professional boxers in history who have posted quicker movement and hand speed statistics than Cassius Clay (Ali). He was just incredibly fluid and incredibly intelligent. His was a style that didn't have as many bad matchups as the standard walk-and-slug of his predescessors.

maybe, but were they heavyweights?



























no!

Dempsey 1919
12-30-2005, 01:30 PM
Sheesh, let go of Ali's nuts for awhile and think. Liston was in his PRIME when Ali beat him. Tyson wasn't anywhere near his, it's obvious, he wasn't fighting like he used to.

liston was 32, and barely trained, (not that it would have made that much of a difference).

Brassangel
12-30-2005, 01:42 PM
Okay, so you made excuses for Liston; fair enough.

32 doesn't take a fighter out of his element. A guy who hits hard will still hit hard when they get older. If you read the diaries of the people who worked with Liston they say that he didn't train for the Clay (Ali) fights because he felt that, after watching some of them, Ali posed no real threat to his title. Unfortunately for him, he was sorely wrong. Even so, he was given another chance and the result turned out far worse the second time around. By the way, if you score any rounds in favor of Liston over Ali for any reason, I guarantee you they had to do with the solvent that blinded Ali. Ask any trainer: it's speed, not power that diminishes greater with age. The second, and equally important weapon of Tyson's arsenal was his speed. Once he reached his mid-thirties, he didn't have it any more. When Ali reached his 30's, he didn't have it anymore either. Liston didn't rely as much on his speed as he did his power. Speed fades much quicker than power.

Again, my efforts feel wasted unless supaduck posts anymore.

And yes, Butterfly, they were heavyweights. Just do a little research is all I'm asking. Roy Jones posted faster hand speed as an out-of-his-prime heavyweight; I'll throw you that bone. The rest you'll have to search for if you know how. Or maybe some others will graciously assist your search and post it here. Many critics agree that even Tyson cut off the ring faster than Ali danced around it in their respective primes. Whatever...I'm sure that you'll follow this with an equally reduntant "No way was anybody faster..." post of some sort. Just because Ali said he was the fastest doesn't make him so. I'm saying all of this mind you, while still believing that Ali could win 2/3 against any fighter in history.

Dempsey 1919
12-30-2005, 01:47 PM
Okay, so you made excuses for Liston; fair enough.

32 doesn't take a fighter out of his element. A guy who hits hard will still hit hard when they get older. If you read the diaries of the people who worked with Liston they say that he didn't train for the Clay (Ali) fights because he felt that, after watching some of them, Ali posed no real threat to his title. Unfortunately for him, he was sorely wrong. Even so, he was given another chance and the result turned out far worse the second time around. By the way, if you score any rounds in favor of Liston over Ali for any reason, I guarantee you they had to do with the solvent that blinded Ali. Ask any trainer: it's speed, not power that diminishes greater with age. The second, and equally important weapon of Tyson's arsenal was his speed. Once he reached his mid-thirties, he didn't have it any more. When Ali reached his 30's, he didn't have it anymore either. Liston didn't rely as much on his speed as he did his power. Speed fades much quicker than power.

Again, my efforts feel wasted unless supaduck posts anymore.

And yes, Butterfly, they were heavyweights. Just do a little research is all I'm asking. Roy Jones posted faster hand speed as an out-of-his-prime heavyweight; I'll throw you that bone. The rest you'll have to search for if you know how. Or maybe some others will graciously assist your search and post it here. Many critics agree that even Tyson cut off the ring faster than Ali danced around it in their respective primes. Whatever...I'm sure that you'll follow this with an equally reduntant "No way was anybody faster..." post of some sort. Just because Ali said he was the fastest doesn't make him so. I'm saying all of this mind you, while still believing that Ali could win 2/3 against any fighter in history.

roy jones is not a hw, and if he got up to hw, he is not a true hw. and not only that, i don't even agree with the fact that jones's hands were even quicker than ali's in the first place. ali's hands were clocked as fast as robinson's, so that's just bull**** IMO.

Yogi
12-30-2005, 02:49 PM
Neither has Tyson.

Liston gets the first knockdown and wins this fight via KO.

Tyson never faced an opponent close to Listons skills in his so-called prime. Liston on the other hand beat, guess who, Floyd Patterson twice via 1st round KO.

Now we all know that Cus D'Amato perfected his style in Tyson and Patterson. Tyson was faster though and had more power (though his power is overrated) in both hands.

Stylewise Mike Tyson would have a hard time against Liston as Sonny possesed a good, strong jab and was strong enough to hold Tyson if he came to close. As usual Tyson would face a reach and height disadvantage. Liston was more than the unskilled brawler as which he's often presented today. He was fundamentaly sound and had an above average defense by his areas high standards.

Personally I don't believe that Tyson himself would be convinced that he could actually win this fight. Much like why he never wanted a piece of Foreman. There's no way he would intimidate Liston. I'd be the other way round actually.

Prime Tyson loses to a stronger, bigger Liston via 7th round KO. He has his moments before this due to his handspeed and angle-hitting. Ulitmately Liston walks him down and wins the fight with a devastating right that sents a frustrated and beaten Tyson to the canvas.

Good post, Dude.

And you are SO correct in stating that Liston was more than what he is portrayed today (the "unskilled brawler"), and if someone was to watch Liston's fights with the likes of Whitehurst & the two vs. Williams, they should be able to see that Sonny was plenty capable of out-boxing off the back foot from behind that heavy, somewhat quick & very accurate jab of his...as well as putting on the pressure from behind the jab. At his best, he was FAR from the one-dimensional brawler that showed up in the Ali fight(s), as he showed quality defensive skills (slipping, blocking, etc.) in a few of his earlier fights, fairly quick hands (left hooks & jabs, especially), an excellant chin, and a general "all-around" abillity as a Heavyweight. And yes, he even showed heart in some of the earlier fights of his...There was the one against Marty Marshall, when he fought the vast majority of the fight with a broken jaw. There was also the video evidence of his fights with Cleveland Williams, who stunned Liston on a couple of occasions, only to see Sonny immediately come back at Williams with a fire burning in his ass, and finishing off his opponent shortly thereafter.

Liston vs. Tyson?

Yep, stylewise this is a bad matchup for Iron Mike. He'd be playing the role of aggressor in this fight against somebody who successfully & easily dealt with that peek-a-boo style of his. He'd also find himself having tremendous trouble getting past Liston's frequent left jabs, which would again cause Tyson to look for a one-punch KO, while abandoning most of his head movement...similiar to what he showed in such fights as vs. Tillis (last half), Ribalta (especially!), and Douglas. And if he does get inside on occasion, Liston showed he was plenty strong enough to tie Tyson up in there (Liston was exceptionally strong, and often stopped rushes from fighters looking to come inside on him by simply bringing up his left hand), considering fighters physically weaker than Liston had success doing that against Mike.

Tha Greatest
12-30-2005, 02:52 PM
Mike Tyson=Most overrated HW of all time, looked like pure garbage against Holmes and Tillis...

Lennox Lewis-2nd most overrated HW IMO...

Back to subject:Liston by TKO..

Dempsey 1919
12-30-2005, 03:16 PM
Good post, Dude.

And you are SO correct in stating that Liston was more than what he is portrayed today (the "unskilled brawler"), and if someone was to watch Liston's fights with the likes of Whitehurst & the two vs. Williams, they should be able to see that Sonny was plenty capable of out-boxing off the back foot from behind that heavy, somewhat quick & very accurate jab of his...as well as putting on the pressure from behind the jab. At his best, he was FAR from the one-dimensional brawler that showed up in the Ali fight(s), as he showed quality defensive skills (slipping, blocking, etc.) in a few of his earlier fights, fairly quick hands (left hooks & jabs, especially), an excellant chin, and a general "all-around" abillity as a Heavyweight. And yes, he even showed heart in some of the earlier fights of his...There was the one against Marty Marshall, when he fought the vast majority of the fight with a broken jaw. There was also the video evidence of his fights with Cleveland Williams, who stunned Liston on a couple of occasions, only to see Sonny immediately come back at Williams with a fire burning in his ass, and finishing off his opponent shortly thereafter.

Liston vs. Tyson?

Yep, stylewise this is a bad matchup for Iron Mike. He'd be playing the role of aggressor in this fight against somebody who successfully & easily dealt with that peek-a-boo style of his. He'd also find himself having tremendous trouble getting past Liston's frequent left jabs, which would again cause Tyson to look for a one-punch KO, while abandoning most of his head movement...similiar to what he showed in such fights as vs. Tillis (last half), Ribalta (especially!), and Douglas. And if he does get inside on occasion, Liston showed he was plenty strong enough to tie Tyson up in there (Liston was exceptionally strong, and often stopped rushes from fighters looking to come inside on him by simply bringing up his left hand), considering fighters physically weaker than Liston had success doing that against Mike.

thank you. at least some people see the obvious that tyson is tailor made for liston.

Verstyle
12-30-2005, 04:27 PM
yeah, liston has slow hands, give me a break. have you ever seen liston fight? patterson is quick, similar to tyson's speed and movement, and liston destroyed him twice in the first. now he couldn't do that if he didn't have quick hands. also liston rocked cassius clay in the third and clay (ali) moves faster than any hw in history, now if liston had slow hands then he just couldn't do that.


I dont think patterson was in his prime then. :rolleyes: and ne 1 can still punch and hit ppl u make it seem like ali is this manhttp://captain.custard.org/geo_old/pictures/flash3-3.jpg
u do hype him like he's some super natural guy or something ahaha. :D

Dempsey 1919
12-30-2005, 04:29 PM
I dont think patterson was in his prime then. :rolleyes: and ne 1 can still punch and hit ppl u make it seem like ali is this manhttp://captain.custard.org/geo_old/pictures/flash3-3.jpg
u do hype him like he's some super natural guy or something ahaha. :D

patterson was 27, still in his prime when he fought liston.

Verstyle
12-30-2005, 04:31 PM
patterson was 27, still in his prime when he fought liston.


first or second time?? cause the first time it seemed like he lost confidence. and I know they fought again right after that

Dempsey 1919
12-30-2005, 04:42 PM
first or second time?? cause the first time it seemed like he lost confidence. and I know they fought again right after that

the first time he was 27. the second time he was 28.

Dempsey 1919
12-30-2005, 04:43 PM
I dont think patterson was in his prime then. :rolleyes: and ne 1 can still punch and hit ppl u make it seem like ali is this manhttp://captain.custard.org/geo_old/pictures/flash3-3.jpg
u do hype him like he's some super natural guy or something ahaha. :D

he's the closest thing to that in boxing!

Brassangel
12-30-2005, 04:47 PM
Well, you can think it's BS, Butterfly, but you will always think that when someone does something that usurps a number put up by Muhammad Ali. For your information, it was when Roy Jones Jr. got up to heavyweight that this test was performed, just to check and see if he still had hand speed. He was in his 30's and the ratio of punches per count was quicker than Ali when he was in his 20's. This is tested, not opinion. So choosing to think it's BS is a case of continued ignorance, which by dictionary definition is stupidity.

Both sides of the pendulum have been clearly stated here for Tyson and for Liston, only further cementing my argument that this would be a clash of the ages. Style differences aside, anything is still possible in the ring. This is not Frazier vs. Foreman, or Patterson vs. Liston, or Lewis vs. Tyson; this is Liston vs. Tyson and who would get knocked down first.

Furthermore, stating that Tyson is overrated is circular reasoning. Who sets the standard for rating, first of all? And at what point are the persons in question overshooting said rating? The only way he's "overrated" in the nonsensical form (which is what you are suggesting), would be by the people who actually believe Tyson is the best ever, when in fact we have nothing more here than a sad, sad story.

supaduck
12-31-2005, 01:09 PM
Tyson was a balls up. That's his own fault. Though this topic is really quite over.

Dempsey 1919
12-31-2005, 04:56 PM
For your information, it was when Roy Jones Jr. got up to heavyweight that this test was performed, just to check and see if he still had hand speed. He was in his 30's and the ratio of punches per count was quicker than Ali when he was in his 20's.

let me ask you a question. what ali footage did they use to do the testing?

Dempsey 1919
12-31-2005, 06:04 PM
Butterfly, I don't mean to dis you, but any time any form of question of Ali's talent comes into question, your there arguing or asking questions. It's quite funny really, so i'm not annoyed, but I'm just pointing it out.

i'm just trying to correct any misconceptions of ali's ability.

Brassangel
01-01-2006, 02:32 PM
I must say that I am glad to see people like Yogi and Dude on here. They post intelligent arguments with their research in tact. These are the kind(s) of people I like to banter with.

Now, the research for Ali's hand speed in his prime vs. the hand speed of other boxers is not a matter of what footage was used. I am going to deny you a complete answer, Butterfly, because the three different examples used (all from the 60's) in the testing will only pull comments from you like, "Oh, well Ali had an off night," or, "He didn't train for that fight," or your universal answer, "He was passed his prime in any fight where he looked remotely sloppy because he's perfect...". This thread should really be closed anyway as the argument of Tyson vs. Liston is stuck in a string of circular reasoning and repeated comments. The absolute truth is we will never know who would have KO'd who; both guys had tempers and a lack of heart. Both were intimidating, powerful punchers; one with speed, combos, and good defense. The other with reach and a solid jab. The only way to know would be to put them in the ring.

Now, I am always a guy who welcomes speculation, but this thread has turned into a back-and-forth, "Nu-uh!" "Yes-huh!" dispute that's really worthless. So....blah.

Dempsey 1919
01-01-2006, 11:31 PM
I must say that I am glad to see people like Yogi and Dude on here. They post intelligent arguments with their research in tact. These are the kind(s) of people I like to banter with.

Now, the research for Ali's hand speed in his prime vs. the hand speed of other boxers is not a matter of what footage was used. I am going to deny you a complete answer, Butterfly, because the three different examples used (all from the 60's) in the testing will only pull comments from you like, "Oh, well Ali had an off night," or, "He didn't train for that fight," or your universal answer, "He was passed his prime in any fight where he looked remotely sloppy because he's perfect...". This thread should really be closed anyway as the argument of Tyson vs. Liston is stuck in a string of circular reasoning and repeated comments. The absolute truth is we will never know who would have KO'd who; both guys had tempers and a lack of heart. Both were intimidating, powerful punchers; one with speed, combos, and good defense. The other with reach and a solid jab. The only way to know would be to put them in the ring.

Now, I am always a guy who welcomes speculation, but this thread has turned into a back-and-forth, "Nu-uh!" "Yes-huh!" dispute that's really worthless. So....blah.

how much does jones jr. weigh as a hw?

Brassangel
01-02-2006, 01:11 AM
Close enough...I figured you'd ask some question in hopes of getting an answer to try and defend Ali's imperfections. Nonetheless, I'll let you know that Jones, at age 36, was 8 pounds lighter than Ali, at 22. Jones put on weight, and his trainers said he looked sluggish. Even so, he clocked quicker numbers. Jones's foot speed was not quicker though; just his hand speed.

Just let it go, this thread is wasted on a conversation that should be somewhere else.

Dempsey 1919
01-02-2006, 01:14 AM
Close enough...I figured you'd ask some question in hopes of getting an answer to try and defend Ali's imperfections. Nonetheless, I'll let you know that Jones, at age 36, was 8 pounds lighter than Ali, at 22. Jones put on weight, and his trainers said he looked sluggish. Even so, he clocked quicker numbers. Jones's foot speed was not quicker though; just his hand speed.

Just let it go, this thread is wasted on a conversation that should be somewhere else.

well, there you go. jones weighed about 202-204 acording to you, and plus jones is really a true middleweight, so he would still have the speed of a middleweight. no true hw has faster anything than a 20-25yr. old ali, and i think i've proved my point here.

Yaman
01-02-2006, 09:44 AM
Enough about Ali already.

Now, who was more famous of having a guy down in a matter of seconds? Mike and Sonny both. Mike, he had trouble with big men like Smith, Green, Tillis etc so Liston would be a better target. Sonny Liston the same. All i know is Mike would NEVER EVER go down early or if he didn't take a very long beating. Sonny went down from a baby punch for crying out loud!! Ali was not even a ko puncher. It was real so no excuses. Imagine what an aggressive Tyson punch would do if it was landed correctly. Liston had a great Jab, Mike would eat them up. He was never out jabbed in his prime so that wouldn't work.

I won't say who would win, im saying who would get knocked down first. If Tyson gets some shots..done. If Liston gets him, he would have to keep punching, after all, Tyson NEVER went down by ONE punch to the chin.

Dempsey 1919
01-02-2006, 04:56 PM
Enough about Ali already.

Now, who was more famous of having a guy down in a matter of seconds? Mike and Sonny both. Mike, he had trouble with big men like Smith, Green, Tillis etc so Liston would be a better target. Sonny Liston the same. All i know is Mike would NEVER EVER go down early or if he didn't take a very long beating. Sonny went down from a baby punch for crying out loud!! Ali was not even a ko puncher. It was real so no excuses. Imagine what an aggressive Tyson punch would do if it was landed correctly. Liston had a great Jab, Mike would eat them up. He was never out jabbed in his prime so that wouldn't work.

I won't say who would win, im saying who would get knocked down first. If Tyson gets some shots..done. If Liston gets him, he would have to keep punching, after all, Tyson NEVER went down by ONE punch to the chin.

any fool knows he threw that fight, so don't try to use that as something to strengthen your argument.

Yogi
01-02-2006, 05:03 PM
It might be worth noting to some of you guys that Mike Tyson himself has said that there would only be one Heavyweight in history that could've intimidated him, and that man was...Take a guess!

Dempsey 1919
01-02-2006, 05:05 PM
It might be worth noting to some of you guys that Mike Tyson himself has said that there would only be one Heavyweight in history that could've intimidated him, and that man was...Take a guess!

chaaaaaarles "sonnnyyyyyyyyyyy" liiiiiistoooooooonn!!!!!!!!!

Yaman
01-02-2006, 05:06 PM
any fool knows he threw that fight, so don't try to use that as something to strengthen your argument.

I would've expected something else from you as an Ali lover lol. Liston was knocked out period. His mama said it too. Guess Liston didn't have that granite chin after all.

Yogi
01-02-2006, 05:07 PM
chaaaaaarles "sonnnyyyyyyyyyyy" liiiiiistoooooooonn!!!!!!!!!

Yer just too friggin smart, Butterfly...Five points for you!

supaduck
01-02-2006, 05:08 PM
My guess would have been James Douglas.

Dempsey 1919
01-02-2006, 05:49 PM
I would've expected something else from you as an Ali lover lol. Liston was knocked out period. His mama said it too. Guess Liston didn't have that granite chin after all.

"sigh" i guess i'll repeat myself. cleveland williams punches alot harder than ali, and yet williams hit liston with his best shots and couldn't drop him, so what makes you think ali knocked liston out with one light punch? as a matter of fact, ali hit liston with much harder shots in that fight, and liston wasn't hurt, so liston threw the fight period!

supaduck
01-02-2006, 05:55 PM
Liston made it waaay obvious he threw it. Ali was a good puncher, but he's not a top 30 of all time. And even if he was, that punch, at any rate doesn't look like it'd floor a welterweight.

Yaman
01-02-2006, 06:09 PM
Sonny Liston was KO'd if you like it or not.

Dempsey 1919
01-02-2006, 06:10 PM
Sonny Liston was KO'd if you like it or not.

so you actually think that punch was strong enough to send, let alone "keep" liston on the canvas?

Brockton Lip
01-02-2006, 10:20 PM
I think he stayed down there from fear. He thought it was useless to get back up.

supaduck
01-03-2006, 01:20 PM
lol, dude, this is Sonny Liston we're talking about. The man didn't fear anything.

Brassangel
01-03-2006, 01:42 PM
Well, we all know that Mike stating that Charles "Sonny" Liston would have intimidated him was a contradiction of his beliefs. After all, Mike himself said that he was intimidated by every fighter he faced; it was just a matter of putting the gloves together and doing his job. Many fighters for that matter were intimidated and full of adrenaline before a fight. We can't say for them how they felt, we can only quote that they have ALL said it before; even Ali and Liston. Muhammad Ali said he was shaking like a leaf right before the first fight with Liston, because he didn't know what to expect. His motivation was the fact that he didn't want his brother to fight (get beat up, really) anymore, and he didn't want his parents to worry about money. So, after he coasted through the first two rounds, he took that nervous energy and turned it into confidence. Likewise, Liston himself said (to his wife) that he was terrified of Ali because, "...the boy seemed crazy. I never knew what to expect from someone who acted like that...". Joe Frazier said that he was usually intimidated until he took a few punches from an opponent. Then he grew confident because he knew what to expect from his adversaries. Intimidation will play a factor in any fight.

Now, while Roy Jones Jr. was a "true" middleweight as you put it, anyone with the slightest bit of health and diet knowledge knows that putting on weight makes you sluggish and diminishes your speed. That's a risk that fighters take when jumping up to heavyweight, instead of trimming down to a lower weight class. Also, your own power will be less than that of a fighter who is seasoned in said weight division. Furthermore, Jones was 36 years old when they tested him. Another commonplace is that speed decreases with age far quicker than power does. So not only do you have a man who added meat to his normally trim body which would slow him down, there was also a 13 year age difference between his testing and those of Ali. There's no excuse for this one; Ali wasn't the absolute fastest guy (per hand speed) in heavyweight history. It doesn't matter what weight class Jones started out as, it doesn't matter that he weighed 8 pounds less at testing, as he had to gain a bunch of weight beforehand. The results don't lie, and Jones even gave up 13 years of speed vs. The Greatest in this test. Muhammad Ali had an incredible left jab; the purest of it's kind. Muhammad Ali had amazing footwork and respitory conditioning, giving him beautiful fluidity. These things don't automatically conclude that he was the "fastest" in the raw sense of the word.

Now, back to the topic at hand (my apologies for jumping around): Liston would fall from Tyson's punches faster that Tyson would fall from Liston's. Liston himself said that Ali's right hand caught him completely off-guard after his head was already scrambled from continuously spinning clockwise around the ring. Muhammad Ali truly knocked Liston down. The fact that Sonny refused to get up isn't the issue; the punch actually floored him, he said so himself. Tyson, on the other hand, usually had to take consecutive rounds of unhindered punishment before he fell to the canvas. Tyson's shots were notorious for catching people off guard, plus they packed considerable power. Throw that into Liston's scrambled head from trying to figure out where Mike's attacking from and he'd probably go down first. Does that mean Tyson would win the fight? I don't know. But I do believe that Liston would get knocked down first.

P.S. Ali himself didn't start out a heavyweight in the olympics or in his first professional fights, so I guess that nullifies his speed credentials as well, doesn't it? ;)

Yaman
01-03-2006, 01:55 PM
Brilliant post Brassangel.

supaduck
01-03-2006, 03:02 PM
I agree with that dude.

Dempsey 1919
01-03-2006, 04:23 PM
Well, we all know that Mike stating that Charles "Sonny" Liston would have intimidated him was a contradiction of his beliefs. After all, Mike himself said that he was intimidated by every fighter he faced; it was just a matter of putting the gloves together and doing his job. Many fighters for that matter were intimidated and full of adrenaline before a fight. We can't say for them how they felt, we can only quote that they have ALL said it before; even Ali and Liston. Muhammad Ali said he was shaking like a leaf right before the first fight with Liston, because he didn't know what to expect. His motivation was the fact that he didn't want his brother to fight (get beat up, really) anymore, and he didn't want his parents to worry about money. So, after he coasted through the first two rounds, he took that nervous energy and turned it into confidence. Likewise, Liston himself said (to his wife) that he was terrified of Ali because, "...the boy seemed crazy. I never knew what to expect from someone who acted like that...". Joe Frazier said that he was usually intimidated until he took a few punches from an opponent. Then he grew confident because he knew what to expect from his adversaries. Intimidation will play a factor in any fight.

Now, while Roy Jones Jr. was a "true" middleweight as you put it, anyone with the slightest bit of health and diet knowledge knows that putting on weight makes you sluggish and diminishes your speed. That's a risk that fighters take when jumping up to heavyweight, instead of trimming down to a lower weight class. Also, your own power will be less than that of a fighter who is seasoned in said weight division. Furthermore, Jones was 36 years old when they tested him. Another commonplace is that speed decreases with age far quicker than power does. So not only do you have a man who added meat to his normally trim body which would slow him down, there was also a 13 year age difference between his testing and those of Ali. There's no excuse for this one; Ali wasn't the absolute fastest guy (per hand speed) in heavyweight history. It doesn't matter what weight class Jones started out as, it doesn't matter that he weighed 8 pounds less at testing, as he had to gain a bunch of weight beforehand. The results don't lie, and Jones even gave up 13 years of speed vs. The Greatest in this test. Muhammad Ali had an incredible left jab; the purest of it's kind. Muhammad Ali had amazing footwork and respitory conditioning, giving him beautiful fluidity. These things don't automatically conclude that he was the "fastest" in the raw sense of the word.

Now, back to the topic at hand (my apologies for jumping around): Liston would fall from Tyson's punches faster that Tyson would fall from Liston's. Liston himself said that Ali's right hand caught him completely off-guard after his head was already scrambled from continuously spinning clockwise around the ring. Muhammad Ali truly knocked Liston down. The fact that Sonny refused to get up isn't the issue; the punch actually floored him, he said so himself. Tyson, on the other hand, usually had to take consecutive rounds of unhindered punishment before he fell to the canvas. Tyson's shots were notorious for catching people off guard, plus they packed considerable power. Throw that into Liston's scrambled head from trying to figure out where Mike's attacking from and he'd probably go down first. Does that mean Tyson would win the fight? I don't know. But I do believe that Liston would get knocked down first.

P.S. Ali himself didn't start out a heavyweight in the olympics or in his first professional fights, so I guess that nullifies his speed credentials as well, doesn't it? ;)

no it doesn't, because ali did start out as a hw when he turned pro, and he won amateur awards as a hw as well.

and i'm saying name someone who was a true hw that clocked higher speeds than ali?

supaduck
01-03-2006, 04:35 PM
Ali filled out into a heavyweight naturally, didn't he? :confused:

I don't think there is a faster fighter than Ali.

Dempsey 1919
01-03-2006, 04:55 PM
Ali filled out into a heavyweight naturally, didn't he? :confused:

I don't think there is a faster fighter than Ali.

at least no natural hw.

Brassangel
01-03-2006, 11:00 PM
*sigh*

Yikes...it's happened three times since the 70's. I'm just asking the kids to do a little research.

DRZ
01-12-2006, 11:27 AM
tyson was not a "boxer" he was a bulldog, a slugger...the MOST OVER_RATED piece of work to ever put on the leather

I dont know what your smoking, if he didn't get into Don Kings's hand, he would had stayed with trainer Kevin Rooney, not have lost to Douglas, cause Rooney would make Tyson train fully, not had gone to prison, even though I still dont believe he did rape her.

My point is he was knocking out ppl like nothing with Rooney as trainer, and would have kept on doing so. He probably would never have lost his heavyweight titles, (atleast not till he was around 35+ yrs old) and would of beat Holyfield, Lewis, etc.

Now if he didn't leave Kevin Rooney, and etc... you cannot say he wouldn't be recognized as an great all-time boxer or one of the greatest boxers of all time!

jspivey
01-12-2006, 11:57 AM
and who would win i think tyson would get the first knock down because he could get inside early but as the fight gets longer he workrate gets less. but i dont know who wins. i think it would be a dec for 1 of these 2


Who gets knocked down 1st? Liston. In addition to prime Tysons
power, he was fast. Who wins? Thats a tough one. Tyson KO in 9.

Brassangel
01-12-2006, 03:02 PM
Tyson wasn't a slugger. He was a volume puncher. Just because he had the power of most sluggers doesn't make him so. He relied more on speed and defense to land his clean, powerful combinations; as opposed to just swinging haymakers at his opponents. The Tyson who joined King's camp was a sack-of-sand slugger, and the proof was in the pudding: slugging was not his game.

This subject should so be over anyway, but hey, I'll contribute...

Liston goes down first. It's not about who wins, just who gets knocked down first.

Dempsey 1919
01-13-2006, 11:48 AM
... wow, that is a disgrace to boxing knowledge... what in the **** does frazier vs foreman have to do with any ****ing thing...you are clearly an idiot... they are 4 different fighters... so what if they had different styles... there are PLENTY PLENTY AND PLENTY of fights where a swarmer completly beat the **** out of a slugger... watch some other fights dufus... tyson was quicker, stronger, hit much harder, and in all around better shape than frazier...

not when the slugger is bigger than the swarmer.

Brassangel
01-13-2006, 11:56 AM
Okay then Butterfly, list every sinly heavyweight match where a slugger fought a volume puncher, and then prove to us where the slugger won every single time. Frazier vs. Foreman doesn't count....go ahead. It'll be a matter of minutes before people prove to you where it could happen the other way. There are few absolutes in boxing, so this "sluggers always beat volume punchers" of yours doesn't always apply.

Furthermore, Frazier and Foreman are not Tyson and Liston.

Dempsey 1919
01-13-2006, 11:57 AM
Okay then Butterfly, list every sinly heavyweight match where a slugger fought a volume puncher, and then prove to us where the slugger won every single time. Frazier vs. Foreman doesn't count....go ahead. It'll be a matter of minutes before people prove to you where it could happen the other way. There are few absolutes in boxing, so this "sluggers always beat volume punchers" of yours doesn't always apply.

Furthermore, Frazier and Foreman are not Tyson and Liston.

name someone where someone like tyson and someone like liston fought and the one similar to tyson won.