View Full Version : Marvin Hagler vs. Ray Leonard


Dude
12-26-2005, 06:36 AM
Once again... Now right from the beginning I have to admit I am a diehard Hagler fan. He's my favourite fighter of all time and maybe that's why I can't let go. As of late I've heard a lot of people say that Ray Leonard deserved the decision he got this April night in 1987 at the Caesars Palace. I've watched the fight at least more than five times and I always scored it in favour of Hagler. Though the last time I watched it was more than a year ago. Inspired by the "Fighters of the '80s" thread I decided to watch and score it once again even though it might be painfull. Maybe I'll realize where I went wrong and maybe afterwards I can make my peace with the judges and Sugar Ray Leonard. So I'll try as hard as I can to judge as objectivly as possible.

Hagler coming into this fight as WBC Middleweight Champion who defeated Mugabi via KO11 and Thomas Hearns by TKO3 defending his WBC, WBA, IBF titles in his last outings. He hadn't lost for over 1 years and though people wondered when father time will finally get to him he was the heavy favourite.

Leonard came right from a 3 year lay off. He had beaten Kevin Howard in '84 in a very medicore performance by his high standards. Before beating Howard he had not fought for more than 2 years. Leonard didn't want a tune-up for the Hagler fight and many believed he was crazy returning against the undisputed champion while moveing up in weight and haveing been out of action for so long.

In the negotiations Hagler gave Leonard all he asked for. All Hagler seemed to care about was that the money was right. Leonard managed to make the fight a 12 rounder and the ring bigger. He also chose the gloves. Many, including myself, believe that if the fight had been over 15 rounds we wouldn't even have to argue about this anymore because Hagler would've won clearly.

Now here we go, Richard Steele gave his instructions, the fighters are ready, the bell rung:

First Round: Hagler comes out northpole, Leonard seems very excited in the first twenty seconds. Leonard manages to establish the jab, moves faster than Hagler. Hagler follows Leonard around the ring, consistently talking to Leonard. Hagler connects with a right and Leonard unleashes his first flurry. Nothing of any impact, now Leonard turns southpole. Hagler continues to be the aggressor. As the bell rings Leonard does a little pose and off they go to the corner.
First Round scored for Sugar Ray Leonard!
10-9 Sugar Ray Leonard

Second Round: Hagler still fighting northpole and connects with a lead left hand. Trys to follow up but Leonard is too quick. Leonard goes to the body, connects with an overhand right. Richard Steele warns Leonard for holding. Hagler follows Leonard around the ring. Hagler connects with a right and Leonard flurries to steal round 2. Close round.
Second Round scored for Sugar Ray Leonard!
20-18 Sugar Ray Leonard

Third Round: Hagler comes out southpole, hits Leonard with two lefts. Leonard to the body, Hagler to the head. Hagler outpunches Leonard in the exchange, puts pressure on. Leonard pushes Hagler back, gets a warning for pushing. Leonard connects with some right hand leads, still showboats, flurries a little. Hagler with a solid left hand at the bell. Now personally it's really hard for me not to score this round for Hagler. In my opinion he should've won it. But maybe I'm being subjective. So as it was close I'll give it to Leonard.
Third Round scored for Sugar Ray Leonard!
30-27 Sugar Ray Leonard

Forth Round: Hagler staying southpole, hiting Leonard with a left hand lead. Continues to put pressure on Leonard but keeps missing. The crowd cheers for every move Leonard makes. Hard Low Blow by Leonard. Steele warns him for holding. Leonard connects to the body, connects with a showboatpunch and hits a flurry. Hagler smiles and follows him around. Another flurry by Leonard. No punch landed clean.
Forth Round scored for Sugar Ray Leonard!
40-36 Sugar Ray Leonard

Fifth Round: Both come out fast, Hagler continues to talk to Leonard and smiles at him. Hits him with a left hand lead but keeps missing most shots. Leonard with a right hand. Hagler begins to find his range. Misses with a big left hand, Leonard trying to make him pay but Hagler covers up. Hagler hits Leonard with a hard right uppercut that forces Leonard to hold. Hagler has Leonard against the ropes, gets some good shots hit. Leonard tries to flurry but Hagler wont let him. As the bell rings Hagler pushes Leonard in the back to his corner.
Fifth Round scored for Marvelous Marvin Hagler!
49-46 Sugar Ray Leonard

Sixth Round: Hagler connects (as usual when the round starts) with a left hand lead, goes to the body. Leonard with a right hand lead of his own. Hagler misses some big punches, Leonard does nothing to make him pay. Leonard with a quick 1-2, he is sacraficing power for speed. Steele warns Leonard for hitting while holding. Hagler presses the action, connects with some solid blows, Leonard tries to give as good as he gets.
Sixth Round scored for Marvelous Marvin Hagler!
58-56 Sugar Ray Leonard

Seventh Round: As they come out Hagler surprisingly misses with his his first left hand lead. Leonard seems tired, breathes heavy. Hagler to the body. Leonard with a left hook, gets nailed in return by Hagler with a hard left and another one for Hagler. Hagler pushes back Leonard, Steele warns him. Hagler following Leonard around and now starting to connect with more punches. Leonard does a little Muhammed Ali, Hagler shows him his tongue. Hagler has Leonard against the ropes, Leonard gets warned for holding. Hagler with some solid shots to the body and a uppercut just before the bell rings. Leonard with a right hook after the bell rung.
Seventh Round scored for Marvelous Marvin Hagler!
67-66 Sugar Ray Leonard

Dude
12-26-2005, 06:37 AM
Eight Round: They come out and Hagler nails some hard right jabs. Richard Steels interrupts because of some lose tape on Leonards gloves. Leonard gets some extra time. Hagler continues to land his stiff jab. Leonard has nothing in his punches. Hagler keeps marching forwards. Steele warns Leonard for holding. Hagler misses and Leonard counters. Leonard with a right. Hagler just marches through it. The bell rings and Leonard hits Hagler again after the bell. That's two in a row.
Eight Round scored for Marvelous Marvin Hagler!
76-76 draw

Ninth Round: Leonard with a quick 1-2. Hagler cruising forwards. Hagler pound on Leonard, hitting him with the best shot of the fight so far, a streight left hand. Leonard flurring to Haglers head, connecting with some shots. Hagler doesn't move back, dishing out the more solid blows. Leonard flurring again, gets very tired and is warned for holding. Again Leonard on the ropes, Hagler to the body and tries an uppercut, Leonard with another flurry, can barley hold his hands up. Gets another warning. I give this round to Hagler becose he hit the solid shots compared to Leonards flurries.
Ninth Round scored for Marvelous Marvin Hagler!
86-85 Marvelous Marvin Hagler

Tenth Round: Both fighters seem tired. Hagler is slow getting his shots off. Leonard keeps getting warned for holding. At some point one would think Richard Steele has to take a point away. Hagler keeps on going forward, still being the aggressor. Leonard with some jabs and the occasional right hand. Hagler searching for a big shot, meanwhilst landing left hand leads and jabs but missing with most of his hooks. Big miss by Hagler but recovers quick and tags Leonard with a right. Leonard with a beautiful combination. Hagler keeps on marching forward.
Tenth round scored for Marvelous Marvin Hagler!
96-94 Marvelous Marvin Hagler

Eleventh Round: Hagler pressing the action, looking to rough Leonard up. Leonard haveing none of it. Leonard with a flurry. Hagler keeps coming but doesn't let his left hand go. Leonard showboating again. Another flurry by Leonard. The crowd loves it. Hagler to the body, Leonard drops his hands and sticks his head out and Hagler misses as Leonard leans back. Another flurry by Leonard. None of these punches are serious. Leonard holds the ropes as the bell rings and has a hard time getting back to the corner.
Eleventh Round scored for Sugar Ray Leonard!
105-104 Marvelous Marvin Hagler

Twelfth Round: Before the twelfth round Leonard stands up in his corner and raises his hands. Leonard makes this little sign with his glove to Hagler "Lets get it on". Hagler smiles and does the same. Hagler hiting a lead left hand to the body. Follwing Leonard around, getting the better of the exchanges. Leonard makes his famous flurry against the ropes, doesn't connect with most of his punches and starts running around the ring, raising his hands. Hagler raises his hands as well. Hagler with some hooks to the body, and a left to the face. Hagler has Leonard against the ropes, Leonard looking to his corner all the time, barely throwing a punch. The bell rings, Leonard raises his arms, the crowd chants his name.
Twelfth Round scored for Marvelous Marvin Hagler!
115-113 Marvelous Marvin Hagler

Final Result: 115-113 Marvelous Marvin Hagler!

Marvin is dancing around the ring, Leonard climbs on one apron, gettin cheered. The announcer has the decision.

Lou Filippo 115-113 Hagler

Jose J. Guerra 110-118 Leonard (WTF?!)

Dave Moretti 113-115 Leonard

Winner by Split Decision and New Middlweight Champion of the World Sugar Ray Leonard!

The crowd likes it, they have there Cinderalla story. Marvin is disgusted, so am I. 110-118 for Leonard, c'mon, don't noone try to convince me ****ing Guerra wasn't paid. It was a close fight, I tried to be as objective as I could. I wrote every round report right after I've seen the round. Might be that I mixed up the chronological order once or twice but that should be it. Marvin Hagler, the fighter of the 80's won this bout. It doesn't matter what so called experts and diehard Leonard fans say. He won this bout. It was close and I can accept that one or the other likes some flashy flurries over solid punching but everyone who scored this bout 110-118 needs to stick to watching Curling.

I hoped that I could see this bout different but I couldn't. I still saw an old Marvin Hagler beating a tremendous comeback Sugar Ray.

How do you like it?


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Bozo_no no
12-26-2005, 07:56 AM
I just can't see how someone can say they scored a fight 115-113 and then say they'd be disgusted if someone scored it for the other fighter.

I had it 115-113 for Ray.

Hagler threw the fight away fighting foolishly in the first four rounds.

I wouldn't call someone crazy for having it 115-113 Hagler, that's reasonable.

But so is 115-113 for Ray.

It was a close fight.

TOPitBull
12-26-2005, 11:44 AM
I have the fight, and have watched it numerous times.

I scored it 115-113 Leonard.

I think he dictated the fight.

marvdave
12-26-2005, 01:07 PM
don't get me started :D

DiegoFuego
12-26-2005, 03:18 PM
I thought Hagler won 7 rounds. That judge who had it 10 rounds to 2 needs to be shot. Sure, there were a lot of close rounds, but no way could you feel like Leonard was winning that many of them.

Bozo_no no
12-26-2005, 04:18 PM
I agree that the one landslide card for Leonard was a joke,

but,

that's no reason to call the fight a robbery.

I (and many others) felt he legitimatly did win the fight 115-113.

That one judge had his head up his ass with his wide score card, but he had the right guy winning (imo).

NutzNYaMouf
12-26-2005, 04:26 PM
[QUOTE=Dude]
First Round: Hagler comes out northpole, Leonard seems very excited in the first twenty seconds. Leonard manages to establish the jab, moves faster than Hagler. Hagler follows Leonard around the ring, consistently talking to Leonard. Hagler connects with a right and Leonard unleashes his first flurry. Nothing of any impact, now Leonard turns southpole. Hagler continues to be the aggressor. As the bell rings Leonard does a little pose and off they go to the corner.
First Round scored for Sugar Ray Leonard!
10-9 Sugar Ray Leonard

Second Round: Hagler still fighting northpole and connects with a lead left hand. Trys to follow up but Leonard is too quick. Leonard goes to the body, connects with an overhand right. Richard Steele warns Leonard for holding. Hagler follows Leonard around the ring. Hagler connects with a right and Leonard flurries to steal round 2. Close round.
Second Round scored for Sugar Ray Leonard!
20-18 Sugar Ray Leonard

Third Round: Hagler comes out southpole, hits Leonard with two lefts. Leonard to the body, Hagler to the head. Hagler outpunches Leonard in the exchange, puts pressure on. Leonard pushes Hagler back, gets a warning for pushing. Leonard connects with some right hand leads, still showboats, flurries a little. Hagler with a solid left hand at the bell. Now personally it's really hard for me not to score this round for Hagler. In my opinion he should've won it. But maybe I'm being subjective. So as it was close I'll give it to Leonard.
Third Round scored for Sugar Ray Leonard!
30-27 Sugar Ray Leonard

Forth Round: Hagler staying southpole, hiting Leonard with a left hand lead. Continues to put pressure on Leonard but keeps missing. The crowd cheers for every move Leonard makes. Hard Low Blow by Leonard. Steele warns him for holding. Leonard connects to the body, connects with a showboatpunch and hits a flurry. Hagler smiles and follows him around. Another flurry by Leonard. No punch landed clean.
Forth Round scored for Sugar Ray Leonard!
40-36 Sugar Ray Leonard



WATS THIS NORTHPOLE SOUTHPOLE STUFF....

oldgringo
12-26-2005, 05:18 PM
I had it 115-113 for Hagler. I usually score fights for the more effective fighter...for the fighter who throws the better punches (Toney as opposed to Jirov, Hopkins as opposed to Taylor, Hagler as opposed to Leonard) but Hagler did put himself in a position to lose by following Ray around the ring a lot. Hagler did what Sturm did against De La Hoya, what Hopkins did against Taylor...he didn't go out and take the fight decisively.

The decision pissed me off and made me hate Ray Leonard more, but a W is a W.

The Noose
12-26-2005, 05:26 PM
I watched it recently, and still had it for Leonard.

I thought he used the ring better, whilst Hagler just plodded forward, missing wildly.

Leonard threw better combinations, and was economic. He was more accurate then Hagler, and although Hagler landed punches, i thought Leonard's punches had more quality. (he put more into them)

Haglers defense was bad, and he was breathing very heavily early on.

Chet's Revenge
12-26-2005, 06:55 PM
I am a big Hagler fan but I do think think Leonard outpointed him. In that fight Hagler was slow to start and gave up too many early rounds, and was just in general off his game.

Dude
12-27-2005, 01:28 AM
I just can't see how someone can say they scored a fight 115-113 and then say they'd be disgusted if someone scored it for the other fighter.

I had it 115-113 for Ray.

Hagler threw the fight away fighting foolishly in the first four rounds.

I wouldn't call someone crazy for having it 115-113 Hagler, that's reasonable.

But so is 115-113 for Ray.

It was a close fight.

You missunderstood me than. I said it was a close fight and that implies that I could see why someone could possibly score it 115-113 in favour of Leonard.

But than again I don't see how anyone could possibly score it 118-110 in favour of Leonard. That being the crucial scorecard just makes it even more digusting.

Now Leonard won that fight and even if it was no robbery (though Guerra was paied) I can't understand all the people who recently proclaimed that Leonard clearly won the fight. Just because he didn't. It was a close fight and the verdict could've gone either way. I favour Hagler, you favour Leonard. That's ok. But Leonard didn't win this won clearly, nor did he dominate or fool Hagler.

If anything Hagler gave the fight away in the prefight-negotiations and during the first four rounds. Leonard made an incredible comeback, nobody is trying to deny this, but personally I think the glamour boy blazons his record with yet another win that really wasn't a clear one.

Dude
12-27-2005, 01:32 AM
[QUOTE=Dude]
First Round: Hagler comes out northpole, Leonard seems very excited in the first twenty seconds. Leonard manages to establish the jab, moves faster than Hagler. Hagler follows Leonard around the ring, consistently talking to Leonard. Hagler connects with a right and Leonard unleashes his first flurry. Nothing of any impact, now Leonard turns southpole. Hagler continues to be the aggressor. As the bell rings Leonard does a little pose and off they go to the corner.
First Round scored for Sugar Ray Leonard!
10-9 Sugar Ray Leonard

Second Round: Hagler still fighting northpole and connects with a lead left hand. Trys to follow up but Leonard is too quick. Leonard goes to the body, connects with an overhand right. Richard Steele warns Leonard for holding. Hagler follows Leonard around the ring. Hagler connects with a right and Leonard flurries to steal round 2. Close round.
Second Round scored for Sugar Ray Leonard!
20-18 Sugar Ray Leonard

Third Round: Hagler comes out southpole, hits Leonard with two lefts. Leonard to the body, Hagler to the head. Hagler outpunches Leonard in the exchange, puts pressure on. Leonard pushes Hagler back, gets a warning for pushing. Leonard connects with some right hand leads, still showboats, flurries a little. Hagler with a solid left hand at the bell. Now personally it's really hard for me not to score this round for Hagler. In my opinion he should've won it. But maybe I'm being subjective. So as it was close I'll give it to Leonard.
Third Round scored for Sugar Ray Leonard!
30-27 Sugar Ray Leonard

Forth Round: Hagler staying southpole, hiting Leonard with a left hand lead. Continues to put pressure on Leonard but keeps missing. The crowd cheers for every move Leonard makes. Hard Low Blow by Leonard. Steele warns him for holding. Leonard connects to the body, connects with a showboatpunch and hits a flurry. Hagler smiles and follows him around. Another flurry by Leonard. No punch landed clean.
Forth Round scored for Sugar Ray Leonard!
40-36 Sugar Ray Leonard



WATS THIS NORTHPOLE SOUTHPOLE STUFF....

Northpole meaning orthodoxe stance with the left hand and the left foot leading.

Southpole meaning unorthodoxe stance with the right hand and the right foot leading.

Hagler was a natural southpole but could box northpole as well.

Dude
12-27-2005, 01:37 AM
I watched it recently, and still had it for Leonard.

I thought he used the ring better, whilst Hagler just plodded forward, missing wildly.

Leonard threw better combinations, and was economic. He was more accurate then Hagler, and although Hagler landed punches, i thought Leonard's punches had more quality. (he put more into them)

Haglers defense was bad, and he was breathing very heavily early on.

Now, without trying to offend, that is bull****. Leonard really wasn't accurate and had nothing in his punches. He sacraficed speed for power. His punches had no snap in them (with very, very few exceptions).

Hagler certainly landed the harder and more meaningfull punches. It's just when he missed you cleary saw the he missed. He missed with some big shots during the twelve rounds.

Now Leonard flurried and let his hands go to dish out a lot of shots in a short amount of time. The thing is that most of this shots either clearly missed (went on Haglers guard or shoulder) and the rest of them had nothing in them at all. Hagler just walked through them. Leonard admited more than once that he tried to steal the rounds by flurring once the 30-secs to go mark was approached. Hagler landed by far more powershots and outlanded Leonard in the last 8 rounds by some margin.

Bozo_no no
12-27-2005, 01:40 AM
You missunderstood me than. I said it was a close fight and that implies that I could see why someone could possibly score it 115-113 in favour of Leonard.

But than again I don't see how anyone could possibly score it 118-110 in favour of Leonard. That being the crucial scorecard just makes it even more digusting.

Now Leonard won that fight and even if it was no robbery (though Guerra was paied) I can't understand all the people who recently proclaimed that Leonard clearly won the fight. Just because he didn't. It was a close fight and the verdict could've gone either way. I favour Hagler, you favour Leonard. That's ok. But Leonard didn't win this won clearly, nor did he dominate or fool Hagler.

If anything Hagler gave the fight away in the prefight-negotiations and during the first four rounds. Leonard made an incredible comeback, nobody is trying to deny this, but personally I think the glamour boy blazons his record with yet another win that really wasn't a clear one.


I feel you dude, that's fair.

But if Hagler had have got the nod it could have been said that it was a win that wasn't really a clear one as well.

A W is a W, and if a comptitive and close fight can't be talked about admirably for a fighter, there's a ton of fights and fighters that have something taken away from them.

Dude
12-27-2005, 02:02 AM
I feel you dude, that's fair.

But if Hagler had have got the nod it could have been said that it was a win that wasn't really a clear one as well.

A W is a W, and if a comptitive and close fight can't be talked about admirably for a fighter, there's a ton of fights and fighters that have something taken away from them.

You know, I totally see where you're comeing from and I don't want to take away from Sugar Rays record. He got the decision that night and he should be credited for it.

It's just that I think Hagler should be credited as well as he came as close to win this bout (with many, me including, believing he won it) as one possibly could.

People get on my nerves when they write that Leonard dominated Hagler and that only diehard Hagler fans could deny the fact that Leonard soundly beat him. It just wasn't like that. Thats basicly all I wanted to say.

Bozo_no no
12-27-2005, 02:13 AM
You know, I totally see where you're comeing from and I don't want to take away from Sugar Rays record. He got the decision that night and he should be credited for it.

It's just that I think Hagler should be credited as well as he came as close to win this bout (with many, me including, believing he won it) as one possibly could.

People get on my nerves when they write that Leonard dominated Hagler and that only diehard Hagler fans could deny the fact that Leonard soundly beat him. It just wasn't like that. Thats basicly all I wanted to say.


A draw would have been a very fair outcome as well.

Tha Greatest
12-27-2005, 02:18 AM
I am a Hagler fan, but I wouldn't really call that a robbery, I can see how people had Ray winning, but I had the Marvelous one winning.

Dude
12-27-2005, 02:23 AM
A draw would have been a very fair outcome as well.

Yeah, I think we both can agree on that.

I am a Hagler fan, but I wouldn't really call that a robbery, I can see how people had Ray winning, but I had the Marvelous one winning.

I didn't say it was a robbery. I just believe that Guerra was paied and that people forget how close the fight really was.

RastaSmoker
12-27-2005, 02:26 AM
Do illiterate people get the full effect of alphabet soup?

Dude
12-27-2005, 02:31 AM
Do illiterate people get the full effect of alphabet soup?

With english being my 2nd or 3rd language I'm just happy that people understand me.

How well do you speak German, smartass?

RastaSmoker
12-27-2005, 02:39 AM
With english being my 2nd or 3rd language I'm just happy that people understand me.

How well do you speak German, smartass?


How the hell do you not know if its your 2nd or 3rd

Dude
12-27-2005, 02:42 AM
How the hell do you not know if its your 2nd or 3rd

Because until one year ago I had as many french as english lessons.

But what is your point anyway?

RastaSmoker
12-27-2005, 02:45 AM
whats my point about what

RastaSmoker
12-27-2005, 02:46 AM
After all is said and done, more is said than done

Dude
12-27-2005, 02:48 AM
whats my point about what

Whats the point in calling me an illterate?

Are you proud that your english is better than mine or did you just try to be funny or wtf? It's not like your response had anything to do with the topic.

You're still mad because of Gomez and me not being interessted in your biography?

TheEvilSaint
12-27-2005, 02:52 AM
i will honestly admit that i have not seen the entire fight. but from what i hear, leonard showboated his way to victory, but hagler did nothing to prove he won. while leonard was dancing around, halger didnt not cut off the ring or chase after him or charge.

both fighters were at fault, but i just wish that hagler won. if not, i also wish leonard wasnt such a cheap ass and a con so he would have given a rematch to marvin.

thats why marvin retired: cuz leonard wouldnt give him a rematch, not cuz he lost.

RastaSmoker
12-27-2005, 02:54 AM
Whats the point in calling me an illterate?

Are you proud that your english is better than mine or did you just try to be funny or wtf? It's not like your response had anything to do with the topic.

You're still mad because of Gomez and me not being interessted in your biography?

haha i wasnt saying you were illiterate. I was just making a quip. I didnt even care that you were posting. Your not that important. I was just making a statement

Dude
12-27-2005, 02:58 AM
i will honestly admit that i have not seen the entire fight. but from what i hear, leonard showboated his way to victory, but hagler did nothing to prove he won. while leonard was dancing around, halger didnt not cut off the ring or chase after him or charge.

both fighters were at fault, but i just wish that hagler won. if not, i also wish leonard wasnt such a cheap ass and a con so he would have given a rematch to marvin.

thats why marvin retired: cuz leonard wouldnt give him a rematch, not cuz he lost.

Hagler chased Leonard for the whole fight. He just wasn't effective enough to make a better impression. Marvin was too slow that night or else he would've knocked Leonard out.

Leonard showboated a lot but he moved beautifully and didn't tire as bad as people suspected. He kept moving for nearly the whole fight. To make a long story short, he ran like a *****.

Leonard refused to fight Marvin when he was in his prime, then he refused to fight Marvin if he wasn't allowed to choose the size of the ring and the distance of the fight, then he refused to fight Marvin after he got the decision. Though I don't think that Hagler made too much of an effort to make a rematch happen. After that night he was just finished with professional boxing.

Hendrix
12-27-2005, 02:59 AM
With english being my 2nd or 3rd language I'm just happy that people understand me.

How well do you speak German, smartass?


Ohhhhhh, Rasta just got owned.lololol

Dude
12-27-2005, 03:00 AM
haha i wasnt saying you were illiterate. I was just making a quip. I didnt even care that you were posting. Your not that important. I was just making a statement

Ah, aight, in that case I ask you to make your quips in your own threads. :)

RastaSmoker
12-27-2005, 03:01 AM
Ohhhhhh, Rasta just got owned.lololol


no i didnt, what the hell do you consider "OWNED" you truly are proving to be a complete child. Grow up kiddo

TheEvilSaint
12-27-2005, 03:01 AM
Hagler chased Leonard for the whole fight. He just wasn't effective enough to make a better impression. Marvin was too slow that night or else he would've knocked Leonard out.

Leonard showboated a lot but he moved beautifully and didn't tire as bad as people suspected. He kept moving for nearly the whole fight. To make a long story short, he ran like a *****.

Leonard refused to fight Marvin when he was in his prime, then he refused to fight Marvin if he wasn't allowed to choose the size of the ring and the distance of the fight, then he refused to fight Marvin after he got the decision. Though I don't think that Hagler made too much of an effort to make a rematch happen. After that night he was just finished with professional boxing.
well, yeah. hagler and the petronelli bros. were saying "lets fight him, beat him, and go off into the sunset". they were planning for hagler to hang em up pretty soon, but hagler wanted a rematch after that fight cuz he was so disgusted with the decision. when that one last fight wasnt gonna happen, hagler decided "to hell with it".

RastaSmoker
12-27-2005, 03:02 AM
Ah, aight, in that case I ask you to make your quips in your own threads. :)

ohh ok, well in that case, **** off


you on a forum jackass.

Hendrix
12-27-2005, 03:02 AM
no i didnt, what the hell do you consider "OWNED" you truly are proving to be a complete child. Grow up kiddo

lol, dont give me that.Your the same guy that came back with owned remarks.

Hendrix
12-27-2005, 03:03 AM
dont be a hypocrite, look at my damn title...........

RastaSmoker
12-27-2005, 03:07 AM
dont be a hypocrite, look at my damn title...........


i didnt do that ****, thats why is says air kengs *****, and not rastas hoe

Dude
12-27-2005, 03:10 AM
ohh ok, well in that case, **** off


you on a forum jackass.

Lol, that's great, so you use your e-liberty to post stupid bull**** in random threads? A true mastermind.

It's somehow demotivating to invest some time in creating a thread just for some idiot to post his "quips".

But, aight, it's your decision. If you wanna act like a retarded fool I dont care anymore.

RastaSmoker
12-27-2005, 03:14 AM
Lol, that's great, so you use your e-liberty to post stupid bull**** in random threads? A true mastermind.

It's somehow demotivating to invest some time in creating a thread just for some idiot to post his "quips".

But, aight, it's your decision. If you wanna act like a retarded fool I dont care anymore.

you were realy motivated to start this thread? Damn, someone needs a real life

Dude
12-27-2005, 03:16 AM
well, yeah. hagler and the petronelli bros. were saying "lets fight him, beat him, and go off into the sunset". they were planning for hagler to hang em up pretty soon, but hagler wanted a rematch after that fight cuz he was so disgusted with the decision. when that one last fight wasnt gonna happen, hagler decided "to hell with it".

Hagler wanted the Leonard fight bad. He had always been jealous of the "everyones darling" sugar boy and rightly so. While Leonad made millions with just being himself and enjoying cocaine, Hagler worked his butt off for some respect and got cheated more than once.

In the post fight interview he said sth. like "I knew with this being Vegas it was too close. I beat him but it was too close." I think he got into the fight with the mindset that he had to really dominate the whole fight if he wanted to get the verdict. Maybe that is why he came out northpole. He wanted to show everyone that Leonard wasn't in his league and he couldn't. I guess that's why he started dancing like he did after the 12th round. He knew it was over for him.

Hendrix
12-27-2005, 03:17 AM
dont be a hypocrite, look at my damn title...........


lol, well then hes on your nut sack. He tryed to convince me that you used your points to change that.

Dude
12-27-2005, 03:17 AM
you were realy motivated to start this thread? Damn, someone needs a real life

Says the person who made twice as much posts in half the time and cries on online chatrooms about his hard childhood?

Hendrix
12-27-2005, 03:27 AM
Says the person who made twice as much posts in half the time and cries on online chatrooms about his hard childhood?

Leave him alone, or he'll cyber punch you. lol

RastaSmoker
12-27-2005, 04:25 AM
lol, well then hes on your nut sack. He tryed to convince me that you used your points to change that.


If you remember he was the one talking **** to you originally. I said something and we started in on each other. I wouldnt waste my points on you.


Look right there k. It show who did what












http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a118/Rastasmoker/ScreenShot056.jpg

RastaSmoker
12-27-2005, 04:31 AM
Says the person who made twice as much posts in half the time and cries on online chatrooms about his hard childhood?

Thats the luxary of being young and being comfortably imployed, with my worries taken care of by me and my actions.


And no one was crying? ??? said for someone to say something in the chat room. He asked what life was like for me. SO I ANSWERED HIS QUESTIONS. Thats kinda how a conversation goes sometimes. One asks question then the other answers them, and visa versa.

Hendrix
12-27-2005, 04:41 AM
[QUOTE=RastaSmoker]If you remember he was the one talking **** to you originally. I said something and we started in on each other. I wouldnt waste my points on you.


Look right there k. It show who did what

Ok cool, this clears up alot of things. I asked the little ***** if he changed my **** and he said you did for him. lol, I cant belive he wasted his points on me, I knew I got into that queers head.

RastaSmoker
12-27-2005, 04:45 AM
[QUOTE=RastaSmoker]If you remember he was the one talking **** to you originally. I said something and we started in on each other. I wouldnt waste my points on you.


Look right there k. It show who did what

Ok cool, this clears up alot of things. I asked the little ***** if he changed my **** and he said you did for him. lol, I cant belive he wasted his points on me, I knew I got into that queers head.

ok....thats settled

Dude
12-27-2005, 08:58 PM
Stickied the thread because there gotta be more opinions about this. :)

TOPitBull
12-28-2005, 02:47 PM
i will honestly admit that i have not seen the entire fight. but from what i hear, leonard showboated his way to victory, but hagler did nothing to prove he won. while leonard was dancing around, halger didnt not cut off the ring or chase after him or charge.

both fighters were at fault, but i just wish that hagler won. if not, i also wish leonard wasnt such a cheap ass and a con so he would have given a rematch to marvin.

thats why marvin retired: cuz leonard wouldnt give him a rematch, not cuz he lost.

Leonard simply outboxed Hagler.

Hagler did land the harder shots, but comparing this to Taylor Hopkins? Cmon guys? that was a robbery. As the Compubox numbers showed.

I am going to go back and check the Compubox numbers in this fight, and I bet they go to Leonard as well. This was not controversial, just a close win by Leonard.

Dude
12-29-2005, 12:04 AM
I'm desperatly trying to find the accurate compubox stats for the fight but the closest I came to it is this site: http://www.compuboxonline.com/history/april02.shtml

Can anyone help me out? First one to find it gets 50 Million points. :)

The Noose
01-01-2006, 08:46 PM
Ive always seen Leonard as the clear victor.

Most people think it was close.



I fukin love Hagler, but Leonard was smart, and Hagler was slow and predictable.

moondog0
01-04-2006, 03:04 PM
I remember seeing that fight on pap per view I was a great Hagler supporter and thought if you looked at it scientificly Hagler may have won, Leonard was the crowd favorite and stole rounds in the last ten seconds. Leonard could never knock out Hagler in a million years, but Hagler agreed to the bigger ring and was overtrained for the fight, his punches were dull and slow, another fight wuld have been great...

Ronny Mexico
01-04-2006, 04:22 PM
I'm a huge Leonard fan and thought Ray won a close fight, but to me the bottom line (unfortunately) is that it wasn't a "prime" fight for either guy. I guess I don't even see it as either fighter being reasonably close to prime. Hagler was sluggish and lethargic. To me, he got old vs. Mugabi. And obviously Ray wasn't the same fighter he had been prior to the layoff. Of course, a prime Ray isn't fighting at this weight either, but you get my point.

Marvelous63
01-20-2006, 01:32 PM
Ive always seen Leonard as the clear victor.

Most people think it was close.



I fukin love Hagler, but Leonard was smart, and Hagler was slow and predictable.

I believe it was very close, and that we didnt see the brawling hagler that people were so accustomed to seeing. It was thought marvin was trying to outbox ray, and once he realized he couldnt do that, it was too late. (according to the judges)

fabulous
01-29-2006, 06:51 PM
I believe it was very close, and that we didnt see the brawling hagler that people were so accustomed to seeing. It was thought marvin was trying to outbox ray, and once he realized he couldnt do that, it was too late. (according to the judges)


People take Hearns fight and say Hagler chosed wrong strategy. Truth is that Hagler never fought like he did against Hearns, before or after. He started similiarly against Duran and in many other fights. He just wasn't particularly quick making adjustment. Not against Duran, not against Leonard. He fought e in orthodox stance in many fights and switched often. He didn't fight much differently against leonard than usual.

After not successful start hagler made some changes but i think main thing what made difference after sixth round was Leonard getting tired. No wonder, he had only 1 fight in 5 years.
Because of it Hagler was able to catch Leonard more often and fight became close.

moondog0
02-02-2006, 12:39 PM
I saw that fight live on pay-per-view, Hagler coudn't catch Leonard. He couldn't hurt him either, if the fight could have gone on another two or three rounds Hagler would have got him, but he appeared to overtrain before this fight, (Leonard was very fast...)

sleazyfellow
02-13-2006, 06:53 AM
yeah if i was part of marvins camp i wouldnt of agreed to the 20x20 ring or the 12 rounds, but i guess he couldnt resist the good payday, but yeah 15 rounds and hagler would of caught him eventually

ricecrispi
02-14-2006, 04:20 PM
General consensus was Hagler would knock Leonards head off. That didn't happen and Leonard made Hagler chase him ineffectively. Leonard won a close and clever fight. Leonard didn't beat Hagler but did enough boxing and some showboutin to win the fight on judges score cards.

Hagler didn't overtrain. Hagler always started slow to get his range because he's a counter puncher and lost several close decisions because of it. Hagler was never a knockout artist or an aggressive or smoothering type fighter. People get the wrong impression of Hagler from old Hearns fight.

sugar J
02-20-2006, 11:40 PM
hagler gave away early rounds.........also he chased leonard and wasted valuable time during rounds. leonard also got inside the judges heads. smart on his and dundee's part to have such sway over the judges i.e. the "leonard mystique" i think it was called. can't fault him for that. i rooted for hagler but he lost a close fight. he also conceded to leonards demands during negotiations. can't fault leonard for that either. i was unhappy at the end of this fight but that's boxing.

Slicksouthpaw
02-23-2006, 10:07 PM
I have never seen this fight. I would like to see the punchstat numbers too.


By the way, how do people figure Hagler was Overtrained?

Thoth
02-25-2006, 08:03 PM
On a side note, I remember hearing a while back that the Judge who scored 10-2 in favor of Leonard was actually the judge chosen by Marvin Hagler's people. This being true i'm not sure how you can justify claiming he was paid off. It's not completely out of the question, just seems less likely.

DaWayne
02-28-2006, 11:12 PM
Still Think Ray won 115-113 just watched the fright two nights ago.

Marvelous63
03-13-2006, 11:18 PM
There is no way Hagler should have lost that fight. His gameplan was weak and didnt use his agressive tactics to his advantage until the last few rounds, when it was too late to get the W. I still believe that fight was a draw or a win from Hagler. Even SRL's wife stated that she thought Hagler won the fight

jason100x
03-28-2006, 12:14 AM
Years ago I scored this fight in favor of Leonard. I think I know a lot more now than I did then and my appreciation of Hagler and his style is much higher than it was then. I haven't seen the fight in years so it would be interesting to watch it again and see if I would have it differently. To see how the years change one's view of how the fight went. needless to say i had it close even back then maybe only by a round or two.

Hydro
04-04-2006, 12:40 AM
115-113 Hagler.

I don't care really, I don't like either fighter. You got a blinking, 2-faced, woman-beating, showboating queer and a whining crybaby who always talks about how bad he had it and how tough he is yet he's so sensitive he has to change his name to feel liked.

Gay Leonard turned the Marvelous Milk-Dud into a binge-drinking, coke-snorting, wife abuser. He turned Marvin into another version of himself.

Gay Leonard= Marvin's daddy

wmute
04-04-2006, 04:20 AM
I will never forgive leonard for being a ***** and not giving him a rematch,

cant believe leonard "retired" and came back again when he was sure hagler was gone

moondog0
04-04-2006, 12:31 PM
I saw that fight on pay-per -view and thought Hagler won,. I saw it a week later and thought it was very close, I can see how leonard stole rounds, but Hagler didn't fight like he could, he was to tight and overtrained.....

Piggu
04-05-2006, 01:42 AM
I will never forgive leonard for being a ***** and not giving him a rematch,

cant believe leonard "retired" and came back again when he was sure hagler was gone
He said something like he didn't want the belts, then he comes back once Hagler leaves to fight Duran.

115-113 Hagler

The_One77
04-08-2006, 02:27 PM
i easily gave the 12th round to leonard, Marvin could barely hit him..
he was so elusive while Marvin just ate punches, especially the flurry against the ropes..what was it, 12 unanswered punches?

SonnyG8R
04-09-2006, 07:16 PM
Leonard was the clear winner. Very rarely can a fighter give away the first 4 rounds and come back to win a decision. Leonard put on a boxing clinic that day. Hagler looked confused and fustrated during most of the fight. First he couldn't catch Ray and then when sugar stopped and traded with him hagler couldn't make him pay like he expected.

Then after Hagler lost he turned into a whiney *****.

"boo hoo that's what happens when you fight in vegas" lol, then he up and quits to become a movie star in Spain or somewhere. :lol1:

Hydro
04-09-2006, 08:57 PM
Hagler went to make movies in Italy.

Hagler deserved to lose to that Blinking, Boozing, ***** Beater just for doing that gay "I'm so cool" dance after the fight.

Boxclever
05-03-2006, 07:46 AM
i love this fight, it's a cracker. :boxing:

Damon
05-06-2006, 05:31 PM
There was no way that Leonard deserved the decision, Hagler was the better and still is better than Leonard, don't get me wrond, Leonard was a brilliant fighter but he didn't desreve the decision, Hagler was winning the fight in nearly every round.

Tiger Flowers
05-07-2006, 08:05 AM
I have watched the fight many mnay times. The most recent being about 2 months ago. I would rather watch Hagler Hearns since it was much more exciting but I felt a sense of duty to view the fight again as sometimes time will remove and tendancy to be subjective when scoring. I am both a Leonard fna and Hagler fan but scored the fight for Leonard. The last time I watched it I gave the "close rounds" to Halger just for the hell of it and in my eyes he still only won 5 rounds.

I think at the time, wrong or not, Hagler was expected to tear through Ray the way he did Tommy Hearns, Mustafa Hamsho, Wilfred Scypion, and just about evey other fighter he faced. When the judges and the fans saw an "old" Halger missing and often tenative it made Ray look that much better. I tell people that Ray didn't really win the fight as much as Hagler lost it. If that makes any sense.

Oh well....it's an argument or debate that will continue for years. Hats off to Marvin for retiering and staying retired.

Tiger Flowers :cool:

antihero
05-07-2006, 08:30 AM
I watched the fight again recently and still have it 115-113 for Leonard. Hagler got off to a slow start and for me Leonard was 4-1 up after 5 rounds. Leonard was just too quick, Hagler was just following, not doing enough and when he did throw, missed more often than not or was hitting gloves rounds 1-5. Ray was landing the cleaner scoring blows in the earlier stages. Hagler pulled it back over the middle rounds but never was ahead and Leonard edged some of the later rounds, so for me 115-113 Leonard was fair. Apart from the scoring, looking back at him there's no doubt Leonard was a lovely boxer to look at,bouncing around with clever footwork. Much better to watch than someone like Floyd Mayweather. To me, there's no comparison.

sookyjumps
05-08-2006, 11:45 PM
it depends how you look at it, alot of people who saw leonard won, think that simply because its sugar ray leonard.

wmute
05-09-2006, 09:48 PM
Leonard put on a boxing clinic that day.

the best clinics leonard puts on are the ones in "use of contracting power in negotiation before fights". (see duran 2, hagler, lalonde): the guy should teach MBAs.

The only clinic that was on that night was Hagler's "how to lose a fight": trying to outbox leonard in the first part of the fight, stalk him in the wrong stance instead of cutting him off from his usual southpaw...

Styx Bootleg
05-20-2006, 07:22 PM
Although more of a Marvelous man I thought Leonard probably edged it, largely due to ring wear on Hagler's part. Not a great fight.

lefthooklacy11
05-26-2006, 11:16 PM
i easily gave the 12th round to leonard, Marvin could barely hit him..
he was so elusive while Marvin just ate punches, especially the flurry against the ropes..what was it, 12 unanswered punches?

That was pretty cool, the guy had unreal hand speed. I thought SRL won the fight, but I too could have seen it go either way.

SnoopySmurf
06-20-2006, 01:00 PM
While I thought it was a close fight, I thought most of the rounds was won by Hagler...but he would lose it badly in the final 30 seconds of each round to the judges.

Ali used this tactic as well.

PATO 1
06-21-2006, 02:13 PM
i have leonard 115-113 up

hellfire508
06-22-2006, 05:36 AM
There was no way that Leonard deserved the decision, Hagler was the better and still is better than Leonard, don't get me wrond, Leonard was a brilliant fighter but he didn't desreve the decision, Hagler was winning the fight in nearly every round.

Just so you know... you spelt your hero's name wrong in your sig.

"Hagler".. not "Haglar".

Oh, and Leonard won the fight. ;)

MickyHatton
06-22-2006, 06:02 AM
I remember watching this and thinking that Leonard was the fastest most skilled fighter I had ever seen, I had seen Hagler live when he beat Minter and thought the guy was a monster but he seemed slower against the dazzling Leonard.

I do believe that Leonard edged the fight but I wish they had done it again becuase it was never settled for me, Hagler for me was still the greater fighter, Leonard had a great career but I always felt he held back and could have done so much more!

stevenson1
06-22-2006, 08:18 AM
Hagler 115-114

shortright
07-01-2006, 07:18 PM
i thought lenord won, but that fight didnt mean much hagler was way past his prime and flat outslow, plus the ringsize was a joke, ray could of fought prime hagler but decieded agianst it

aerorider69
07-09-2006, 12:46 AM
I have the fight, and have watched it numerous times.

I scored it 115-113 Leonard.

I think he dictated the fight.
what fight were you watching? Hagler didn't hide he came to fight, while your leonard run like a little girl.

aerorider69
07-09-2006, 12:50 AM
shortright, did you see the fight or you just guessing.. Past his prime?? Hagler retired because your sissy leonard would not give him a rematch. I saw the fight and let me tell you something, todays fighter are gives rematch, like DeLahoya, Hopkins, Mosley, Ali, Pacquio, Foreman, Holmes, ie.. Do I considered Leonard a great fighter, not at all. Hagler fought everybody out there..

aerorider69
07-09-2006, 12:52 AM
Sir,

I so agree with you! I saw it the same as you! Broke myheart, after that fight I didn't watch another for awhile. It's about $$$ ..

aerorider69
07-09-2006, 01:03 AM
I thought boxing was based on defense and offense.. Also, I thought you have to beat the champ by desicive scores. leornard did not come close to this requirement. He run, run, run...Leonard back then is created by the old network of NBC's, HBO"s and what can bring more money to boxing. Hagler was the champ, he waited for leonard to fight but sugar did the hide my face dopey and hold, then run! So on later round Hagler started to hunt leonard since he was not going to fight. What a nightmare after the desicion, I thought it was close in my mind, I had Hagler 115-113 but that night I had the feeling the judges were something diffrent... The worse in my mind that night was a draw..

Hydro
07-11-2006, 04:36 PM
There is no rule that says you have to beat the champ by a decisive margin.

That is a myth, an old "unwritten" rule that we see broken frequently in modern times.

NigelBenn
08-27-2009, 02:55 PM
I thought SRL won it, but I can't sake off that he wanted for Marvin to dip before he fought him.

Dynamite Kid
08-27-2009, 03:02 PM
I think everyone knows Hagler lost, even the Hagler fans deep down. If Hagler had not cried about the decision it would of been forgotten about a long time ago.

If you were to put that fight on for a 100 people who were unaware of the so called controversy, i can almost guarantee most of them would say Leonard won, and thats because Leonard won the fight and Hagler fans are looking for something that is not there.

princemanspoper
08-27-2009, 03:51 PM
Three years old and you bumped this.What the *uck is wrong with you?

And Hagler lost that fight and he knows he did,Losing to an inactive welterweight was humiliating and hagler knows this,He was supposed to destroy Leonard and he couldn't.That's why he told a straight up lie that Leonard came up to him and said that he(Hagler) had won,Petty and immature much like your typical Hagler fan

It's a shame his fans didn't piss off to Italy with him and go star as extra's in his ****ty italian movies

Thread Stealer
08-27-2009, 06:01 PM
I had it even at 114.

I thought SRL won it, but I can't sake off that he wanted for Marvin to dip before he fought him.

I didn't like that either, but Leonard also had declined.

D-MiZe
08-27-2009, 06:02 PM
I think everyone knows Hagler lost, even the Hagler fans deep down. If Hagler had not cried about the decision it would of been forgotten about a long time ago.

If you were to put that fight on for a 100 people who were unaware of the so called controversy, i can almost guarantee most of them would say Leonard won, and thats because Leonard won the fight and Hagler fans are looking for something that is not there.

Hagler won.

SRL threw some flash combinations and bolo punches, that's why he got the decision.

GJC
08-27-2009, 06:58 PM
I had it a draw gun to my head to pick a winner I'd go Hagler though credit to SRL he snowed the judges.

princemanspoper
08-27-2009, 07:11 PM
It is amazing tho,Over 22 years ago it wasn't about who would win,It was what round Hagler would stop Leonard in,Leonard was given no chance and rightly so,He had been inactive for the past five years fighting just once in a poor effort in which he was knocked down by an average fighter,Hagler's status was that of a destructive machine,He got alot of recognition from the Hearns fight and he was untouchable to the sporting media so it is pretty amazing that we are debating a decision than in reality due to the circumstances surrounding it never should have happened

I'd like to hear an argument from a Hagler fan that Hagler convincingly won that fight without resorting to the same old bull**** exagerrated accusation that all Leonard did the entire fight was flurry in the last twenty seconds,Clear examples of morons who have never watched the fight themselves instead relying on the watered down,drama bull**** that HBO legendary nights provides them with

Had Hagler recieved a 118-110 card would you not claim that was bull**** also? A ridiculous scorecard that didn't reflect what had taken place in the ring.


Hagler won.

SRL threw some flash combinations and bolo punches, that's why he got the decision.


Try and watch the fight rather than listen to what some bitter f*g on an internet forum tells you

Dynamite Kid
08-27-2009, 07:29 PM
Hagler won.

SRL threw some flash combinations and bolo punches, that's why he got the decision.


No he lost.

Leonard got the decision because he won more rounds, thats why ITV's Reg Gutridge, Jim Watt were leaning towards Leonard on the ITV telecast aswell

Even if you dont think Hagler lost he certainly did not beat Leonard because he gave away too many rounds, you only need 6 not to lose.

Hagler winning the fight is a myth created out of Hagler's own frustration.

billionaire
08-27-2009, 07:40 PM
theres just no way hagler won that fight, the reason hes been crying for the past 20 years is out of embarrassment that he lost to a smaller guy out for 5 years....he won 5 rounds at most....everyone says leonard was just showing off, but he backed hagler off him round 9 the most important part of the fight....alot of hagler fans are just corny lames that couldnt respect a flashy guy like leonard so they just act like he was robbed because he never got hurt but he had one of the best chins ever.....

billionaire
08-27-2009, 07:42 PM
shortright, did you see the fight or you just guessing.. Past his prime?? Hagler retired because your sissy leonard would not give him a rematch. I saw the fight and let me tell you something, todays fighter are gives rematch, like DeLahoya, Hopkins, Mosley, Ali, Pacquio, Foreman, Holmes, ie.. Do I considered Leonard a great fighter, not at all. Hagler fought everybody out there..

haha bull****, hagler cried like a lil girl and said he never touched a boxing glove again....leonard turned hagler into a alcoholic coke snorting wife beater....trust he wouldve gotten beat convincingly in a rematch...

Stoppage
08-27-2009, 07:46 PM
I had Leonard winning the fight.

Kid McCoy
08-27-2009, 08:18 PM
No he lost.

Leonard got the decision because he won more rounds, thats why ITV's Reg Gutridge, Jim Watt were leaning towards Leonard on the ITV telecast aswell

Even if you dont think Hagler lost he certainly did not beat Leonard because he gave away too many rounds, you only need 6 not to lose.

Hagler winning the fight is a myth created out of Hagler's own frustration.

No it's called an opinion. Hugh McIlvanney thought Hagler won, Budd Schulberg thought Hagler won, Harry Gibbs thought Hagler won and one judge thought Hagler won. It was a close fight with opinions split.

Dynamite Kid
08-27-2009, 08:44 PM
No it's called an opinion. Hugh McIlvanney thought Hagler won, Budd Schulberg thought Hagler won, Harry Gibbs thought Hagler won and one judge thought Hagler won. It was a close fight with opinions split.

That said id hazzard a guess majority people had Hagler losing.

However like i said even if you dont think Leonard won there is no way he did not win 6 rounds of that fight to at least make sure he did not lose.

Dynamite Kid
08-27-2009, 08:46 PM
For Hagler to have won 7 rounds of that fight you would have to give him the benift of the doubt in most of the swing rounds and 7 rounds is what he would of needed to of beaten Leonard.

Hagler did not win because Leonard did not lose, whether you think Leonard won can be debated.

Kid McCoy
08-27-2009, 08:58 PM
That said id hazzard a guess majority people had Hagler losing.

However like i said even if you dont think Leonard won there is no way he did not win 6 rounds of that fight to at least make sure he did not lose.

Like I said it's only an opinion, and there's a billion different ways of judging a fight. No amount of browbeating will convince half the boxing world that one of the most disputed decisions in boxing history was an obvious win for the other guy.

Dynamite Kid
08-27-2009, 09:37 PM
Like I said it's only an opinion, and there's a billion different ways of judging a fight. No amount of browbeating will convince half the boxing world that one of the most disputed decisions in boxing history was an obvious win for the other guy.



My point is........ its only one of the most disputed because of a bad reaction by a particular fighter. The fight was close but ive seen much closer fights, that said no one is going to convince me Hagler won 7 rounds of that fight, he clearly gave away 4/5 rounds quite decisively and like i said he would of needed the benefit of the doubt in most of the swing rounds to of pulled 7 rounds out of that fight, and if you are giving Hagler 7 rounds of that fight you being biased imo, because that says you have leaned towards Hagler in all the swing rounds and given him the benefit of the doubt in most of the close rounds, so i dont see how its realistic to score the fight for Hagler.

Like i said Hagler did not win because Leonard did not lose.

Kid McCoy
08-27-2009, 10:01 PM
My point is........ its only one of the most disputed because of a bad reaction by a particular fighter. The fight was close but ive seen much closer fights, that said no one is going to convince me Hagler won 7 rounds of that fight, he clearly gave away 4/5 rounds quite decisively and like i said he would of needed the benefit of the doubt in most of the swing rounds to of pulled 7 rounds out of that fight, and if you are giving Hagler 7 rounds of that fight you being biased imo, because that says you have leaned towards Hagler in all the swing rounds and given him the benefit of the doubt in most of the close rounds.

Like i said Hagler did not win because Leonard did not lose.

No it's one of the most disputed decisions because a lot of people still dispute it. Why else would we be having this discussion now, 22 years after the event? Clearly not everyone saw the fight the same way you did. It's like claiming Larry Holmes pitched a clear shut-out over Tim Witherspoon or Pacquiao did the same over Marquez. I could argue that not giving Hagler any of the first five rounds is to be as biased towards Leonard as you're saying others are to Hagler.

I named three pretty respected boxing people who thought Hagler won. You don't have to agree with them, but it does show that opinion was not as unanimous for Leonard as you were saying. I had it 6-5-1 for Hagler, but I acknowledge it was a close one and don't object to anyone who had Leonard winning a close one.

Dynamite Kid
08-27-2009, 10:13 PM
No it's one of the most disputed decisions because a lot of people still dispute it. Why else would we be having this discussion now, 22 years after the event? Clearly not everyone saw the fight the same way you did. It's like claiming Larry Holmes pitched a clear shut-out over Tim Witherspoon or Pacquiao did the same over Marquez. I could argue that not giving Hagler any of the first five rounds is to be as biased towards Leonard as you're saying others are to Hagler.

I named three pretty respected boxing people who thought Hagler won. You don't have to agree with them, but it does show that opinion was not as unanimous for Leonard as you were saying. I had it 6-5-1 for Hagler, but I acknowledge it was a close one and don't object to anyone who had Leonard winning a close one.



Its disputed because not only did Hagler say he won but that he was robbed hence people getting their teeth into it and over exaggerating like Hagler clearly won.

Would you look at someone with a raised brow if they gave that fight to Hagler by 7 rounds ? if you do the maths he would of had to of taken most of the swing rounds and you would of probably not have given Leonard any to score 7 for Hagler because im sure you will agree he won 4/5 rounds quite decisive did Leonard.

Yes i know but on the Holmes fight there were 15 rounds to decide who won. This was a 12 round fight where Hagler clearly gave away 4/5 rounds and you only need 6 to get a draw, meaning Hagler would of needed 7 rounds and it just not realistic in my eyes to say he won the fight because there are only so many rounds uyp for grabs, Holmes vs Witherspoon was a 15 rounds there more rounds up for grabs so more room for interpretation.


It makes no difference who had Hagler winning, if they gave him 7 rounds logic dictates they gave him benefit of the doubt in most close rounds and did not give Leonard any. Leonard did not lose this fight, i know it Hagler knows it and deep down so did Hagler fans.

I thought Leonard won clearly, and ive tried to score the fight for Hagler and give him the benefit of the doubt and i still had Leonard winning, that said, like i said even if Hagler won more rounds than i think there is no way he won 7 rounds, not with all the early rounds he gave away/lost.

Southpaw16BF
08-27-2009, 10:14 PM
Hagler winning the fight is a myth created out of Hagler's own frustration.

What a stupid comment, like people have said numerous boxing writers, fans, trainers and 1 judge had Hagler winning, and not because they saw Hagler being frustrated it's because they actually thought Hagler won the fight.

It was a extremley close fight and I have no problem with people debating it either way. But to say Hagler winning the fight is a myth because he of his frustration is 110% bogus.

Dynamite Kid
08-27-2009, 10:18 PM
What a stupid comment, like people have said numerous boxing writers, fans, trainers and 1 judge had Hagler winning, and not because they saw Hagler being frustrated it's because they actually thought Hagler won the fight.

It was a extremley close fight and I have no problem with people debating it either way. But to say Hagler winning the fight is a myth because he of his frustration is 110% bogus.



No its 100% correct but silly fans who like to feed myths keep it going, Hagler never made out it was close he made out he won clearly, which he did not.

Hagler did not win 7 rounds and i deffy anyone to find 7 rounds where they did not give all the close rounds to Hagler. If you give 7 to Hagler it means you gave no close rounds to Leonard, fact!!!

Southpaw16BF
08-27-2009, 10:30 PM
No its 100% correct but silly fans who like to feed myths keep it going, Hagler never made out it was close he made out he won clearly, which he did not.

Hagler did not win 7 rounds and i deffy anyone to find 7 rounds where they did not give all the close rounds to Hagler. If you give 7 to Hagler it means you gave no close rounds to Leonard, fact!!!

So Boxing experts who think Hagler won, are silly fans who are feeding a myth? No one claimed Hagler won easily, but you said the reason the fight was close is because of Hagler's frustration, they were your words. Now your trying to change what you said.

You made a stupid comment and am not the only you has quoted you on it. There is only one silly person around here saying silly things......

Dynamite Kid
08-27-2009, 10:34 PM
It seems the basis of the argument has gone from can i argue Hagler won the fight to can i argue that it was not myth that he won the fight and it was at least close enough to argue he won.

Bottom line is...........do you think he won 7 rounds? because that is what he needed to win the fight, i dont think he won the fight but for argument sake i can still argue that Hagler did not win because he did not win 7 rounds which is what he would of needed to have won.

Now this was supposed to be a close fight apparently ? so that dictates that the rounds were close yes ? well there have to be quite a few rounds that were open to interpretation yes ? Leonard won/ Hagler gave away 4/5 rounds quite clearly yes? this is the problem i have its supposed to be a close fight where the rounds are open to interpretation but Leonard won 4/5 early rounds quite clearly and im sure most would agree with that, now here is my problem, its a close fight like we are led to believe, that means Hagler would of had to get the benefit of the doubt in most of the remaining rounds and Leonard get none of the debatable/swing/close rounds.

You need 6 rounds for a draw. Hagler did not win because Leonard did not lose.

Id like to see a show of hands of who did actually give Hagler 7 rounds

Dynamite Kid
08-27-2009, 10:40 PM
So Boxing experts who think Hagler won, are silly fans who are feeding a myth? No one claimed Hagler won easily, but you said the reason the fight was close is because of Hagler's frustration, they were your words. Now your trying to change what you said.

You made a stupid comment and am not the only you has quoted you on it. There is only one silly person around here saying silly things......



There is no such thing as an expert.

No one claimed Hagler won easily, Hagler did and ive heard his fans say it many times.

Well if i wanted to change what i said i can, why should i feel fearful of saying okay maybe i was wrong to say "the reason the fight was close is because of Hagler's frustration " maybe that fight was close in terms of if Leonard won it he only won it by 1/2 rounds but its one of them, you know where we say close fight but you knew who the clear winner was.

Bottom for me is Hagler did not win whether it was close or not. I dont know why you are getting on my case just lately, what have i dont to you to annoy you ?

Southpaw16BF
08-27-2009, 10:49 PM
There is no such thing as an expert.

No one claimed Hagler won easily, Hagler did and ive heard his fans say it many times.

Well if i wanted to change what i said i can, why should i feel fearful of saying okay maybe i was wrong to say "the reason the fight was close is because of Hagler's frustration " maybe that fight was close in terms of if Leonard won it he only won it by 1/2 rounds but its one of them, you know where we say close fight but you knew who the clear winner was.

Bottom for me is Hagler did not win whether it was close or not. I dont know why you are getting on my case just lately, what have i dont to you to annoy you ?

All I am saying is the fight could of went either way, and I don't debate people who see it either way. And I don't think the fight was close because of Hagler's frustration.

People who think either fighter won ''Easy'' are wrong. You haven't done anything to me lately, it seems lately do that we have been bumping into each other on threads, and we have not been seeing the same things on decision and fighters. Nothing personal...........;)

Dynamite Kid
08-27-2009, 10:58 PM
All I am saying is the fight could of went either way, and I don't debate people who see it either way. And I don't think the fight was close because of Hagler's frustration.

People who think either fighter won ''Easy'' are wrong. You haven't done anything to me lately, it seems lately do that we have been bumping into each other on threads, and we have not been seeing the same things on decision and fighters. Nothing personal...........;)


Well im cool with that.

TBH i dont think the fight was that close in terms of doubting who the winner was and i do believe Hagler's reaction makes it more controversial than it is BUT!!! for arguments sake im willing to concede that is was relatively close being that if Leonard DID win he only won by 1/2 rounds, that said i really cannot see how anyone could make a case that Leonard lost and Hagler won without giving Hagler the benefit of of the doubt in most of the close rounds, if he had not given away those 4/5 early rounds then i could see where people are going with it but i think its very unlikely that Hagler could give away those rounds so clearly and then win most of the other rounds when like i said if it was a close fight then those rounds were close and that means he would of gotten the benefit of the doubt in those remaining rounds.

This fight was a 12 rounder, he gives away 4/5 rounds in an evidently close fight and he(Hagler) sweeps 7 of the next 7/8 rounds without Leonard getting at least 2 of those rounds to earn himself a draw. Its just not realistic to me.

princemanspoper
08-28-2009, 07:41 AM
Technially you don't need to win seven rounds of a twelve round bout to win a fight,Six rounds is enough on a 6-5-1 scoring,That is the greatest argument you can give to Hagler really and even then it doesn't fit the robbery mold that Hagler and his fanboys claim,A fight that was supposed to be a mismatch turned into a disputed decision


I still want to see an argument from a Hagler fan for him winning the fight clearly

Sugarj
08-28-2009, 08:29 AM
I've watched this fight many times, one of my faves. I've scored the fight several times and the most rounds I can find in Hagler's favour are 5.

Like it or not, the rounds that Leonard won were clearer than the rounds that Hagler shaded to add to the mix.

I do blame Hagler's preparation and the Petronelli's corner work. Hagler coming out orthodox was a foolish, egotistical move, no suprise that he threw away the first four rounds. He was far more effective as a southpaw. In between rounds the Petronelli's advice lacked any sense of urgency.........they had to know it was close! I seem to remember Gill Clancy colour commentating that they were speaking to Hagler like it was 'an IBM meeting'.

Much as I'd like to find a way for Hagler to win this one I always have Leonard as the points victor. If Hagler had come out southpaw in the beginning and shown a little more zip early he could well have got the decision.........it would have still been a great performance by Leonard, his pride would be intact and we could have looked forward to the likes of Hagler/Hearns 2, Hagler/Duran 2 and possibly Hagler vs Benn. Crying shame!

Dynamite Kid
08-28-2009, 08:57 AM
I've watched this fight many times, one of my faves. I've scored the fight several times and the most rounds I can find in Hagler's favour are 5.

Like it or not, the rounds that Leonard won were clearer than the rounds that Hagler shaded to add to the mix.

I do blame Hagler's preparation and the Petronelli's corner work. Hagler coming out orthodox was a foolish, egotistical move, no suprise that he threw away the first four rounds. He was far more effective as a southpaw. In between rounds the Petronelli's advice lacked any sense of urgency.........they had to know it was close! I seem to remember Gill Clancy colour commentating that they were speaking to Hagler like it was 'an IBM meeting'.

Much as I'd like to find a way for Hagler to win this one I always have Leonard as the points victor. If Hagler had come out southpaw in the beginning and shown a little more zip early he could well have got the decision.........it would have still been a great performance by Leonard, his pride would be intact and we could have looked forward to the likes of Hagler/Hearns 2, Hagler/Duran 2 and possibly Hagler vs Benn. Crying shame!



Agree, i have also tried to score that fight in favour of Hagler and give him the benefit of the doubt in the close round but is still did not have him winning. This is a fight that really infuriates me because people make out Hagler got a raw deal and that Leonard did not win, when i think most people know Leonard won deep down, even Hagler fans.

Benncollinsaad
08-28-2009, 09:54 AM
No offence to any Latinos, but Latinos are poor judges. They are very often partial. Like the mug who gave Ruiz the decision over Chagaev!:grr: They tend to support their own fighters very often, even when they lose clearly. Black judges aren't much better, but Latinos are definitely the worst judges.

Sugarj
08-28-2009, 10:13 AM
Quote
'Agree, i have also tried to score that fight in favour of Hagler and give him the benefit of the doubt in the close round but is still did not have him winning. This is a fight that really infuriates me because people make out Hagler got a raw deal and that Leonard did not win, when i think most people know Leonard won deep down, even Hagler fans.'


I think this fight falls into a similar grouping with De La Hoya vs Trinidad. The problem is that Trinidad got the decision! I can never find 6 or more rounds for Trinidad in that fight! Hagler, like Trinidad (with Oscar) finished strongly over Leonard and may well have left his fans wishing it was a fifteen round fight. Round twelve saw two very good flurries from Leonard, an Ali shuffle and a hell of a lot of running, Hagler did finish at least aggressively. If Hagler had got the decision there would surely have been an even bigger outcry, most people I know think Leonard deserved the decision.

Alot of people favour the guy going forward, which Hagler certainly did and I know some respected boxing writers saw it for Hagler, but I'd doubt they would actually be able to score the fight for him on a round by round basis, he gave too much away early.

Dynamite Kid
08-28-2009, 10:30 AM
Quote
'Agree, i have also tried to score that fight in favour of Hagler and give him the benefit of the doubt in the close round but is still did not have him winning. This is a fight that really infuriates me because people make out Hagler got a raw deal and that Leonard did not win, when i think most people know Leonard won deep down, even Hagler fans.'


I think this fight falls into a similar grouping with De La Hoya vs Trinidad. The problem is that Trinidad got the decision! I can never find 6 or more rounds for Trinidad in that fight! Hagler, like Trinidad (with Oscar) finished strongly over Leonard and may well have left his fans wishing it was a fifteen round fight. Round twelve saw two very good flurries from Leonard, an Ali shuffle and a hell of a lot of running, Hagler did finish at least aggressively. If Hagler had got the decision there would surely have been an even bigger outcry, most people I know think Leonard deserved the decision.

Alot of people favour the guy going forward, which Hagler certainly did and I know some respected boxing writers saw it for Hagler, but I'd doubt they would actually be able to score the fight for him on a round by round basis, he gave too much away early.

Agree 100%

Im sure many of us including myself would of put their money on Hagler winning that fight if it had been a 15 round fight because Hagler was coming on and Ray was fading towards the end.

Sugarj
08-28-2009, 11:22 AM
Yes true Dynamite, it would take a real Leonard nuthugger to argue that he'd have found three more rounds of flurries the way Hagler was coming on.

Leonard's 12 round battle plan was executed almost to perfection, a rematch should have happened. I've heard a few views as to why it didn't depending largely on who you speak to. Hagler fans say that Leonard ducked him for two years and frustrated him into retirement. Leonard fans say that Hagler gave up on his career the moment the scores were announced and didn't have the heart to set the score straight, that he preferred to moan about the decision and pursue his acting.

Who knows?

Benncollinsaad
08-28-2009, 11:25 AM
Yes true Dynamite, it would take a real Leonard nuthugger to argue that he'd have found three more rounds of flurries the way Hagler was coming on.

Leonard's 12 round battle plan was executed almost to perfection, a rematch should have happened. I've heard a few views as to why it didn't depending largely on who you speak to. Hagler fans say that Leonard ducked him for two years and frustrated him into retirement. Leonard fans say that Hagler gave up on his career the moment the scores were announced and didn't have the heart to set the score straight, that he preferred to moan about the decision and pursue his acting.

Who knows?

It WAS pretty cowardish of Leonard to retire right after the match. But he redeemed himself somewhat when he came back as a SMW and took on Lalonde and then Hearns. Obviously he had been getting some bad rap about all his retirements and wanted to prove he really was a warrior.

Sugarj
08-28-2009, 11:36 AM
It certainly could have looked that way, it wasn't like it was that long after Hagler that he came back to face LaLonde and Hearns though. No two ways about it, he showed some heart climbing off the floor in both these fights.

Hagler did the telecast for the Leonard/Hearns fight, no reason why he couldn't have plugged for a rematch or put the heat on afterwards.

GJC
08-28-2009, 12:13 PM
This was a close fight like I say if anything it was a draw and I hate draws. Whatever you view it is silly to call it a robbery. If I had to pick a winner I thought Hagler shaded it but he fought a stupid fight. I believe he thought it was a matter of time before he caught up with SRL, he probably deserved to lose for not doing his job in there. If you think about it in all of the fab 4 fights he let the opponent dictate the pace and terms of the fight.

Sugarj
08-28-2009, 12:29 PM
Yea, he certainly made the Duran fight tougher than he needed to and he didn't show much caution for Tommy's right hand early either. Hell Marvin is a legend, I cant find any more than five rounds for him in the Leonard fight though...............and I have searched in vain:pat:

▀ringer
08-28-2009, 12:36 PM
Ray Leonard earned the decision that night. Regardless of personal opinion.

Hagler fought Leonard's fight, and got outhustled when it mattered most. He was coming on stronger towards the end of the fight when most thought Ray was fading, but he honestly should've started out like that much earlier than he did. Instead he let Ray fight his fight, control the pace of the action, and shoeshine him to hell and back with cute combos that awed the judges and audience.

I honestly don't see where the "controversy" is in that fight.

RRICAN
08-28-2009, 12:38 PM
Hagler lost this fight in the negotiation process. he gave srl everything(biggest ring ive ever seen, gloves) but what really focked him up was the 12 rds instead of 15 he was barely starting to fight around the 6-7 rd while srl was downhill the last 3 (9-12) with 9 more mins i believe hagler will have koed srl :boxing:

Dynamite Kid
08-28-2009, 12:41 PM
I dont wanna sound like a SRL fanboy and a Hagler hater but i never thought Hagler was exceptionally skilled a fighter. I think he was a good counter puncher without being expectational but his gifts like power, strength, durability tenacity and those good Boxing skills albeit not spectacular made him formidable.

I think Leonard and Duran were better technicians and thats why they were so competitive with Hagler. Hagler fought guys like Roldan, Fully Obell, Sibson, Hamsho, Vito, guys that would come straight at you and with Hagler's left handed counter punching stance they were pretty much good matches for him style wise.

More saavy technicians like Leonard, Duran made Hagler's skills look far more conventional.

JM1
08-28-2009, 12:42 PM
sugar ray clearly won that fight. this is also one of the many reasons why hes included in my all time favorites :cool2:

▀ringer
08-28-2009, 12:52 PM
I dont wanna sound like a SRL fanboy and a Hagler hater but i never thought Hagler was exceptionally skilled a fighter. I think he was a good counter puncher without being expectational but his gifts like power, strength, durability tenacity and those good Boxing skills albeit not spectacular made him formidable.

I think Leonard and Duran were better technicians and thats why they were so competitive with Hagler. Hagler fought guys like Roldan, Fully Obell, Sibson, Hamsho, Vito, guys that would come straight at you and with Hagler's left handed counter punching stance they were pretty much good matches for him style wise.

More saavy technicians like Leonard, Duran made Hagler's skills look far more conventional.

I am inclined to agree with this.

You are spot on in your comparison of Leonard and Duran's skillsets as compared to Hagler's.

He was a very solid boxer/puncher and I really enjoyed his counterpunching abilities, but when compared to the talents of some of his contemporaries ; Hagler fell quite short, IMO.

bojangles1987
08-28-2009, 01:03 PM
I can't help but smell robbery when one of the scores is 118-110 Leonard, which is absolutely ludicrous to the point we should be suspicious. I had it 8-4, maybe 7-5 for Hagler. This fight always makes me mad because Leonard did a bunch of dancing and taunting and basically everything to make himself look good except fight, and the judges and crowd fell for it. Everyone wanted Leonard to win that fight so bad, the fact he didn't get his head knocked off made people want to give it to him. You should have to do more to take the title from a man that had held it for as long as Hagler was middleweight champ.

▀ringer
08-28-2009, 01:26 PM
I can't help but smell robbery when one of the scores is 118-110 Leonard, which is absolutely ludicrous to the point we should be suspicious. I had it 8-4, maybe 7-5 for Hagler. This fight always makes me mad because Leonard did a bunch of dancing and taunting and basically everything to make himself look good except fight, and the judges and crowd fell for it. Everyone wanted Leonard to win that fight so bad, the fact he didn't get his head knocked off made people want to give it to him. You should have to do more to take the title from a man that had held it for as long as Hagler was middleweight champ.

I don't consider that to be true, at all.

Have you actually watched the full fight, or just it's episode of "Legendary Nights" where they paint that picture?

Because Ray was doing more than just dancing and showing off.

118-110 is an awfully wide score, and the fight itself was definitely closer than that but I myself had it 7-5 Leonard.

GJC
08-28-2009, 03:46 PM
sugar ray clearly won that fight. this is also one of the many reasons why hes included in my all time favorites :cool2:
Whatever your view you can't treally say anyone won it clearly hence this thread 20 odd years on

Benncollinsaad
08-28-2009, 03:55 PM
Nobody won clearly, but it definitely wasn't one of the greatest robberies as everyone was screaming about. I knew one guy who actually stopped watching boxing because of his outrage at the decision! Now that is taking it too far.

As you said, Hagler is to blame for not being more aggressive and persistent from the start. He let SRL take the first five rounds for crying out loud!

hookoutofhell
08-28-2009, 04:12 PM
i watched the fight for the third time about 6 months ago. every time iv watched the fight iv watched it neutrally and every time i come to the same conclusion - 115-113 for sugar ray leonard.

imo hagler would have won if he had turned up for the first 5 rounds, of he hadn't been constantly switching stances and if he had made it a 15 rounder.

GJC
08-28-2009, 04:45 PM
You need 6 rounds for a draw. Hagler did not win because Leonard did not lose.
Id like to see a show of hands of who did actually give Hagler 7 rounds

Like I've said I had it as a draw or a wafer thin Hagler win but I wouldn't give Hagler 7 rounds or indeed Leonard 7 rounds, I'd have to watch this again but as I recall there were a few level rounds in there?

bojangles1987
08-28-2009, 11:48 PM
I don't consider that to be true, at all.

Have you actually watched the full fight, or just it's episode of "Legendary Nights" where they paint that picture?

Because Ray was doing more than just dancing and showing off.

118-110 is an awfully wide score, and the fight itself was definitely closer than that but I myself had it 7-5 Leonard.

I'm not going to pretend there's no way Leonard could be considered the winner, 115-113 Leonard is fine but most of those close rounds were only close because Leonard would throw some flurry at the beginning and end of those rounds, and get those rounds despite spending 75% of the round doing nothing. I hate that, so I scored most those rounds for Hagler because he did more work. Most of those flurries did nothing and missed too, they looked more impressive than they were.