p4p gans or robinson? [Archive]

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Dempsey 1919

12-13-2005, 06:34 PM

pound for pound who was better, the lightweight joe gans or sugar ray robinson?

http://www.harrygreb.com/AllentownJoeGans.jpeg http://coxscorner.tripod.com/Images/robinson1.jpg

Brockton Lip

12-13-2005, 06:40 PM

Oh good one. I'd have to say Sugar Ray Robinson though.

Da Iceman

12-13-2005, 07:17 PM

sugar ray any day

M26

12-13-2005, 07:42 PM

Sugar Ray Robinson was the greatest p4p fighter of all time, so this one is easy. :boxing:

Dempsey 1919

12-17-2005, 06:24 PM

hellfire508

12-17-2005, 08:23 PM

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Muhammad Ali
4. Harry Greb
5. Willie Pep
6. Roberto Duran
7. Joe Gans
8. Benny Leonard
9. Jimmy Wilde
10. Ray Leonard
11. Sandy Saddler
12. Sam Langford
13. Stanley Ketchel
14. Marvin Hagler
15. Carlos Monzon
16. Ezzard Charles
17. Pernell Whitaker
18. Joe Louis
19. Salvador Sanchez
20. Julio Cesar Chavez

Tha Greatest

12-17-2005, 08:26 PM

hellfire508

12-17-2005, 08:39 PM

Where would you put Joe Louis? Higher or lower?

Gavilan1

12-17-2005, 10:33 PM

blockhead

12-17-2005, 10:37 PM

sorry, but i would have to say gans. he just was too good, and i am pretty sure he would have went undefeated if he wasn't forced to take dives against white fighters.

http://www.mikeglenn.com/images/JoeGans2.jpg
looks like your the only one willing to hate on ray robinson consistantly. your ranking of ali higher than him is almost as funny as this one.

Gavilan1

12-17-2005, 11:29 PM

Joe Louis is the best fighter ever.

hellfire508

12-17-2005, 11:54 PM

Joe Louis is not the best fighter ever. Pound for pound. Heavyweight - a case can be made for him. But pound for pound, no way.

Dirt E Gomez

12-17-2005, 11:59 PM

Joe Louis is not the best fighter ever. Pound for pound. Heavyweight - a case can be made for him. But pound for pound, no way.

While I didn't agree with many aspects of your list, I do agree with it going SRR, followed by Armstrong.

hellfire508

12-18-2005, 12:04 AM

What about Fitzsimmons? He is top 3 P4P.

He certainly is a top 25 P4P fighter, and is in my top 25 - which isn't finalised. The fact that he beat Corbett for the heavyweight crown weighing in as a super-middleweight by today's standards is amazing. At this point in time, he isnt in my top 20.

hellfire508

12-18-2005, 12:06 AM

While I didn't agree with many aspects of your list, I do agree with it going SRR, followed by Armstrong.

P4P lists are so hard to make. I spent a while making that list, and I'm never happy with it. I always chop and change it.

hellfire508

12-18-2005, 12:07 AM

Butterfly - Can you elaborate on why you think Gans rates higher than Robinson in a P4P sense?

Dempsey 1919

12-18-2005, 12:32 AM

Butterfly - Can you elaborate on why you think Gans rates higher than Robinson in a P4P sense?

his defensive skills were amazing! robinson was given trouble by some fighters, but gans was given trouble by nobody. he had to take dives in fights cause the whites didn't want to see a white fighter lose. he was just way better than everybody!

hellfire508

12-18-2005, 12:49 AM

Gans lost 8 times, and drew 11 - he didn't dive all of those times. He reportedly dived a couple of times I think, but did lose legitimately. Such as his 15 round decision loss to LAngford - who was rather green at the time (considering it was his second year as a pro, and fought for another 23 years) - and was a BLACK fighter. Nonetheless, there is no shame in losing to the great SAm Langford.

In a pound-for-pound sense, he suffers a LITTLE from staying at 135 all the time, and not moving up. His competition is nowhere near the same as Robinson's.

However, I rank Gans' defence as number 1 out of any fighter in any weight class. He was a truly brilliant fighter. However, I just think Robinson's supreme dominance, longativity, competition and "sweet as sugar" skills rank him above any figher in history.

hellfire508

12-18-2005, 12:53 AM

Although I should acknowledge, Gans did fight other fighters at higher weights - he just didn't move.

And remember, I'm not trying to degrade Gans. I rank him extremely high on my P4P list, and have considered moving him higher. I just feel he wasn't as good as Ray.

LondonRingRules

12-18-2005, 08:56 PM

his defensive skills were amazing! robinson was given trouble by some fighters, but gans was given trouble by nobody. he had to take dives in fights cause the whites didn't want to see a white fighter lose. he was just way better than everybody!
Dude, what kinda ADD meds are you on? Every fighter is given trouble in the ring no matter how good he was. Gans is one of the greats, probably makes most top 25 lists. Generally the best comes down to Robinson, Greb, and Pep.

Oh, and Gans whooped plenty of whites, so it appears you have some unresolved racial issues that reveal you to be more than a little goofy.

Dempsey 1919

12-18-2005, 09:11 PM

Dude, what kinda ADD meds are you on? Every fighter is given trouble in the ring no matter how good he was. Gans is one of the greats, probably makes most top 25 lists. Generally the best comes down to Robinson, Greb, and Pep.

Oh, and Gans whooped plenty of whites, so it appears you have some unresolved racial issues that reveal you to be more than a little goofy.

i know, but he was forced to take dives, you cannot deny that.

The Noose

12-18-2005, 10:22 PM

I dont know a ****ing thing about Gans, in terms of watching him fight.

Ive seen Robinson as much as anyone else, which isnt really that much.

So who the **** knows who is better. The changing styles of boxing and expanding knowledge about training, conditioning, technical boxing etc make any of these kinds of matchups near impossible to debate.

The Noose

12-18-2005, 10:23 PM

Butterfly, you've been reading too many of Juy Juy's posts!

Lucky466

12-18-2005, 11:54 PM

LondonRingRules

12-19-2005, 04:07 AM

i know, but he was forced to take dives, you cannot deny that.
The only questionable loss on Gans' record was his KO by Terry McGovern who was the mini Tyson of his day. His last two KO losses to Nelson came after he became sick with TB as I recall. He was dead 2 yrs later.

Dempsey 1919

12-19-2005, 02:47 PM

The only questionable loss on Gans' record was his KO by Terry McGovern who was the mini Tyson of his day. His last two KO losses to Nelson came after he became sick with TB as I recall. He was dead 2 yrs later.

man look it up, he was paid good money to take dive against built-up white fighters at the time. you must have serious problems if you are gonna sit there and tell me that's not true!

hellfire508

12-19-2005, 08:34 PM

Whoever made that list have you actually ever seen half of those guys fight? If you had seen Louis fight theres no way you would have Ray Leonard and Hagler and Ezzard Charles rated above him. Honestly Louis is Probably P4P just underneath Robinson and probably on par with Ali depending on who you ask. You should try and find a tape if his second fight with Schemling.

Dude, I have 20+ Joe Louis fights. What you say is laughable. Ezzard Charles at light-heavyweight was absolutely brilliant. PLus his success at heavy adds to his high P4P ranking. Leonard is arguably top 3 welterweight of all time, and Hagler is the best middleweight of all time. Hagler was a very complete fighter, and P4P was much better than Louis.

Out of my list, I haven't seen Greb and Ketchel footage. The rest I have seen. But I have read plenty on both. I've only seen short clips of Langford from memory. I think you need to get some footage of Charles at LH and some Hagler, and you will understand my placing of them.

Dempsey 1919

03-04-2007, 01:53 AM

bump......

Ishak Pasha

03-04-2007, 03:20 AM

i dont know who that gans is. but im going for my homie sugar ray robinson :boxing:

Ishak Pasha

03-04-2007, 03:32 AM