View Full Version : why do people think tyson is so overrated.........


Baddest man on da planet
12-09-2005, 11:23 AM
i dont think he is

Imira
12-09-2005, 11:58 AM
Maybe because the quality of opponents he fought on the way up and the fact that he lost his title by KO to a top tier journeyman and that KO went unavenged. Plus, after his KO at the hands of Holyfield and the humiliating DQ loss, he defeated no fighters of note (Golota, Saravese, Williams etc.) for the rest of his career.

I acknowlege his strengths and weaknesses and people are entitled to their own opinion, but I do think that his fans tend to overrate him far too much. At the same time, people who dislike him underrate him grossly as well.

Baddest man on da planet
12-09-2005, 12:45 PM
Maybe because the quality of opponents he fought on the way up and the fact that he lost his title by KO to a top tier journeyman and that KO went unavenged. Plus, after his KO at the hands of Holyfield and the humiliating DQ loss, he defeated no fighters of note (Golota, Saravese, Williams etc.) for the rest of his career.

I acknowlege his strengths and weaknesses and people are entitled to their own opinion, but I do think that his fans tend to overrate him far too much. At the same time, people who dislike him underrate him grossly as well.
i think you are right

MickyHatton
12-09-2005, 12:50 PM
Maybe because the quality of opponents he fought on the way up and the fact that he lost his title by KO to a top tier journeyman and that KO went unavenged. Plus, after his KO at the hands of Holyfield and the humiliating DQ loss, he defeated no fighters of note (Golota, Saravese, Williams etc.) for the rest of his career.

I acknowlege his strengths and weaknesses and people are entitled to their own opinion, but I do think that his fans tend to overrate him far too much. At the same time, people who dislike him underrate him grossly as well.

I think Imira has summed this up superbly, Tyson FOR ME was a good Champion, I do not think he should be classed as an all time top five great however!

Yes in the mid eighties he destroyed almost everything put in front of him including himself, but which were his defining fights? Holmes too old, Spinks too overated,Douglas(shouldn't have been)but he threw it away, Holyfield yes but he blew both of those fights for one reason or another and finally Lewis and to be honest if all the Tyson fans looked at this objectively Tyson was easily beaten!

People talk about past his best and too old but in reality thats an excuse both Holyfield and Lewis were of similar age to Tyson and the likes of Douglas, Williams and McBride should not have beaten him, without at least a return match to settle scores.

Its the image that has sustained Mike, he is still a celebrity and adored and revered by millions but most adore the Mike that ruled the Eighties and convieniantly dismiss and forget the rest of his career.

Void
12-09-2005, 12:51 PM
I think Imira has summed this up superbly, Tyson FOR ME was a good Champion, I do not think he should be classed as an all time top five great however!

Yes in the mid eighties he destroyed almost everything put in front of him including himself, but which were his defining fights? Holmes too old, Spinks too overated,Douglas(shouldn't have been)but he threw it away, Holyfield yes but he blew both of those fights for one reason or another and finally Lewis and to be honest if all the Tyson fans looked at this objectively Tyson was easily beaten!

People talk about past his best and too old but in reality thats an excuse both Holyfield and Lewis were of similar age to Tyson and the likes of Douglas, Williams and McBride should not have beaten him, without at least a return match to settle scores.

Its the image that has sustained Mike, he is still a celebrity and adored and revered by millions but most adore the Mike that ruled the Eighties and convieniantly dismiss and forget the rest of his career.
You go to prison for a couple years then come out and try to stay on top of the boxing world. It ain't happening no matter who you are.

MickyHatton
12-09-2005, 01:11 PM
You go to prison for a couple years then come out and try to stay on top of the boxing world. It ain't happening no matter who you are.

He lost to Douglas before prison, Ali was stripped of his title, Joe Louis had a war to deal with they were still great champions, other fighters have had bad injuries, others have had illness, people die close to them etc etc etc, why make excuses?

It obviously affected his career but IF he had of been so good in the first place like Ali and Louis he would have regained all the titles and held onto them!

I'm not saying he was a bad fighter, he wasn't he was awesome and was a top ten all time great but in my opinion he was overated!

Void
12-09-2005, 01:15 PM
He lost to Douglas before prison, Ali was stripped of his title, Joe Louis had a war to deal with they were still great champions, other fighters have had bad injuries, others have had illness, people die close to them etc etc etc, why make excuses?

It obviously affected his career but IF he had of been so good in the first place like Ali and Louis he would have regained all the titles and held onto them!

I'm not saying he was a bad fighter, he wasn't he was awesome and was a top ten all time great but in my opinion he was overated!
I'm not talking about the Douglas fight. Before he went to prison he was a raging animal, he gets out of prison and he is more passive, doesn't have the killer instinct and the skills anymore. Cus dieing really ****ed him up.

MickyHatton
12-09-2005, 01:21 PM
I'm not talking about the Douglas fight. Before he went to prison he was a raging animal, he gets out of prison and he is more passive, doesn't have the killer instinct and the skills anymore. Cus dieing really ****ed him up.


OK, lets not go down this route, you believe what you want its your opinion and I'll have mine.

We all lose loved one's and a lot of us come from similar backrounds to Mike but....

If anything the memory of Cus should have inspired him to live a good life and optimise his talent not do what he did!!!

leff
12-09-2005, 01:44 PM
i dont think he is

well because he is heavy overated

Baddest man on da planet
12-09-2005, 04:18 PM
i will admit he is a little overrated by hardcore fans but people who dont like him underrate him alot.

Dempsey 1919
12-09-2005, 04:23 PM
i will admit he is a little overrated by hardcore fans but people who dont like him underrate him alot.

yeah, that's true. i have him ranked 6th on my all time list. under ali, liston, holmes, foreman, and frazier.

Verstyle
12-09-2005, 04:35 PM
He lost to Douglas before prison, Ali was stripped of his title, Joe Louis had a war to deal with they were still great champions, other fighters have had bad injuries, others have had illness, people die close to them etc etc etc, why make excuses?It obviously affected his career but IF he had of been so good in the first place like Ali and Louis he would have regained all the titles and held onto them!

I'm not saying he was a bad fighter, he wasn't he was awesome and was a top ten all time great but in my opinion he was overated!


okay thats true but with all of that they could still properly train. like ali he got stripped buuuuut he was still out on the street doing interviews and such. and joe louis/ he was in the war mainly for a publicity stunt,he really didnt do ****, he would have exhibition matches when he was in the service :eek: with the ring and everything :eek: . and we got iron mike which was in jail and had to be told what to do 24hrs a day, he couldnt train properly because they didnt have the proper equipment to do so cause he wasnt in the real world like ali and louis was. uhhggggggg that felt good to get that out!!

Dempsey 1919
12-09-2005, 04:38 PM
okay thats true but with all of that they could still properly train. like ali he got stripped buuuuut he was still out on the street doing interviews and such. and joe louis/ he was in the war mainly for a publicity stunt,he really didnt do ****, he would have exhibition matches when he was in the service :eek: with the ring and everything :eek: . and we got iron mike which was in jail and had to be told what to do 24hrs a day, he couldnt train properly because they didnt have the proper equipment to do so cause he wasnt in the real world like ali and louis was. uhhggggggg that felt good to get that out!!

well, ali was under phychological stress cause of the vietnam thing that did not permit him to train enough during the layoff, that's why he lost his speed.

Verstyle
12-09-2005, 05:20 PM
well, ali was under phychological stress cause of the vietnam thing that did not permit him to train enough during the layoff, that's why he lost his speed.


but that guy is trying to say that if louis and ali can do it why no tyson. and every1 knows that it was immpossible to train cause your not in the real world like ali and louis was he was in jail(a building u cant leave until your sentence is up.)u think they were going to let a ****in mike tyson train in jail?? **** NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!thats like giving bill gates a computer with the internet in jail.

Da Iceman
12-09-2005, 05:23 PM
okay thats true but with all of that they could still properly train. like ali he got stripped buuuuut he was still out on the street doing interviews and such. and joe louis/ he was in the war mainly for a publicity stunt,he really didnt do ****, he would have exhibition matches when he was in the service :eek: with the ring and everything :eek: . and we got iron mike which was in jail and had to be told what to do 24hrs a day, he couldnt train properly because they didnt have the proper equipment to do so cause he wasnt in the real world like ali and louis was. uhhggggggg that felt good to get that out!!
joe did do alot of exhibitions but he still lost skill

Verstyle
12-09-2005, 05:27 PM
joe did do alot of exhibitions but he still lost skill


whast worse having the opportunity to train? or not having the opportunity to train and just watch as your talent rotten's away. :confused:

MickyHatton
12-09-2005, 08:14 PM
whast worse having the opportunity to train? or not having the opportunity to train and just watch as your talent rotten's away. :confused:

I obviously see your point but its not like he was locked away in irons for 20 years!

When he came out he still talked a great fight and did win a title back, but when he met Holyfield and Lewis they were too much for him.

Fighters like Leonard and Foreman had much longer lays offs (ok not locked up but they didn't train) and returned to win titles.

The thing is Tyson probably hit his peak before the Douglas fight, he was very young and it all came together for him early, the bottom line is could he ever have beaten Holyfield or Lewis, maybe, maybe not.
The cold hard facts are that a perfectly fit and healthy Mike Tyson fought those nights, the Tyson fans were all expecting a Tyson victory but after he lost to both THEN excuses were offered.
Mike was in prison, Mike lost Cus, Mike came from the Ghetto, NO Mike Tyson on the night was beaten by better fighers, in the Lewis case he wasn't just beaten he was outclassed.

As I mentioned I am a Tyson fan but I'm also a boxing fan and look at the facts without bias and rose tinted glasses and what amazes me is the denial of fans on here to these facts.

People convieniantly forget that Tyson was convicted of rape, when losing to Holyfield bit half his ear off, they forget that Tyson threatened to eat Lewis's children, tried to break Botha's arm and beat up an old man over a driving dispute!

They 'forget' becuase they are still in awe of Iron Mike Tyson from the eighties and will run to his defence at the drop of a hat without realising that all of Mikes problems in and out of the ring were caused by Mike and he therefore is to blame for a great champion that never quite lived up to expectations!

Da Iceman
12-09-2005, 08:51 PM
he couldnt really train like he used to in the army, and most people start to get diminished skills with old age, look at holyfield

Imira
12-12-2005, 05:07 PM
joe did do alot of exhibitions but he still lost skill

You're right...to an extent.

Before going into the army, Louis had already done the bulk of his work as heavyweight champion anyway. As far as the diminishing of his ability, the only thing I noticed was his footwork was a bit slower and his handspeed had gone down a notch. The bone shattering power was still there. Out of his final four defenses, only one man survived to the end of the fight and that was Walcott.

hellfire508
12-13-2005, 06:54 AM
I agree with the notion that he is overrated by some, underrated by some. I think he is primarily underrated in terms of head-to-head, and overrated in terms of greatness. With the exception of the likes of Foreman, Ali and a few others - I think Tyson beats most heavyweights all time. Yet - he doesn't make my top 10. He is 11.

Easy-E
12-13-2005, 01:27 PM
i dont think he is


people think tyson is overrated because, in part to his rabid, sometimes fanatical fans, who clame he is the best hw ever. in response to this, tyson is attacked for his level of oppositon and so on.
i think tyson is top ten all time easy, and i dont overrate him, but many, who claim him to be the best ever, do overrate him

Dempsey 1919
12-13-2005, 02:06 PM
people think tyson is overrated because, in part to his rabid, sometimes fanatical fans, who clame he is the best hw ever. in response to this, tyson is attacked for his level of oppositon and so on.
i think tyson is top ten all time easy, and i dont overrate him, but many, who claim him to be the best ever, do overrate him

agreed pbf34, agreed.

Brassangel
12-16-2005, 04:32 PM
Tyson should be on the elite top ten lists. He also is the biggest case of "shoulda, woulda, coulda" that there ever was in boxing, if not sports history. Tyson could have been the greatest ever if he would have stuck to his training; he should have been 50-0. The fact of the matter is, he threw it away. While he was a great fighter, he was also just a 'good' champion. The ones at the top of the list were generally great champions who kept their focus when it was necessary. :boxing: :boxing: :boxing:

marvdave
12-16-2005, 05:13 PM
with Tyson homers it's always "if". If Cus didn't die, if Don King didn't take over, if he trained properly, if he didn't go to jail, if he didn't hurt his knee, if he didn't get fouled by holy......etc,etc

It's very tiresome to me. I already regret I'm replying to this thread.

Tyson had the skill to be the best of all time. He blew it. At what point in a man's life does he take responsibility for his actions and stop blaming circumstances and other people? He was a monster in the late eighties, but he blew his chance at greatness. He knows it as much as anyone becuase he is very intelligent and a student of history.

His potential was that of greatness. The outcome of his career was very dissapointing.

Baddest man on da planet
12-16-2005, 06:09 PM
with Tyson homers it's always "if". If Cus didn't die, if Don King didn't take over, if he trained properly, if he didn't go to jail, if he didn't hurt his knee, if he didn't get fouled by holy......etc,etc

It's very tiresome to me. I already regret I'm replying to this thread.

Tyson had the skill to be the best of all time. He blew it. At what point in a man's life does he take responsibility for his actions and stop blaming circumstances and other people? He was a monster in the late eighties, but he blew his chance at greatness. He knows it as much as anyone becuase he is very intelligent and a student of history.

His potential was that of greatness. The outcome of his career was very dissapointing.
yea i guess your right but i beleive people overrate him because of how great he could have been.

The Noose
12-16-2005, 07:44 PM
I think at his best he didnt have the quality opposition that could have made him a great champion.

And ever since the Bruno fight he was rapidly declining.

At his best (focused, fast, moving well, jabbing well etc) he looked great and i believe could have beaten alot of the great heavyweights.

He was crap after prison, and even before it.

BUUUUUUT!!

Great fighters stay hungry and adapt to their handicaps. Like Ali and his reflexes, or Louis and his age.

They overcome there physical or mental or personal issues, and rise to the challenge.

Tyson couldnt, and didnt. He was beat by better fighters.

If Ali was beaten by Frazier and Foreman, would he be considered GREAT?

I think not.



Tyson was awsome...but not great.

Brassangel
12-16-2005, 08:03 PM
I don't believe that Tyson is overrated; except by those who think that he was indeed the best ever. He never got to that point. He had the opportunity, but he screwed the whole thing up.

Dempsey 1919
12-17-2005, 12:39 AM
I think at his best he didnt have the quality opposition that could have made him a great champion.

And ever since the Bruno fight he was rapidly declining.

At his best (focused, fast, moving well, jabbing well etc) he looked great and i believe could have beaten alot of the great heavyweights.

He was crap after prison, and even before it.

BUUUUUUT!!

Great fighters stay hungry and adapt to their handicaps. Like Ali and his reflexes, or Louis and his age.

They overcome there physical or mental or personal issues, and rise to the challenge.

Tyson couldnt, and didnt. He was beat by better fighters.

If Ali was beaten by Frazier and Foreman, would he be considered GREAT?

I think not.



Tyson was awsome...but not great.

he still would, just not the best ever. he beat liston, patterson, williams, chuvalo, quarry. he would still be a top ten hw.

tyrone12345678
12-18-2005, 06:15 PM
he fought bums. lots of 'em

Verstyle
12-18-2005, 06:28 PM
he still would, just not the best ever. he beat liston, patterson, williams, chuvalo, quarry. he would still be a top ten hw.


most out of primes i would like to add. ;)

Dempsey 1919
12-18-2005, 06:44 PM
most out of primes i would like to add. ;)

chuvalo and quarry were in their primes when ali fought them, the first time.

Verstyle
12-18-2005, 06:46 PM
chuvalo and quarry were in their primes when ali fought them, the first time.


only 2 outta 5!! :eek:

Skydog
12-18-2005, 07:21 PM
Folley had not been out of his prime for awhile, and Ali straight clowned him. The first 2 rounds he just danced and hardly threw any punches, the 3rd round he started throwing that straight left (they're not jabs!) with fury, and the 4th round he floors Folley. 3 rounds later, Folley is out for good. And Folley was an extraordinary fighter.

Oh yea, Butterfly, you forgot to mention that Foreman was in his prime.

Dempsey 1919
12-18-2005, 07:29 PM
only 2 outta 5!! :eek:

well, he did beat at least 2 HOF'ers in their primes besides foreman and frazier, so that would make a good case for him being a top 10 hw.

Dempsey 1919
12-18-2005, 07:31 PM
Folley had not been out of his prime for awhile, and Ali straight clowned him. The first 2 rounds he just danced and hardly threw any punches, the 3rd round he started throwing that straight left (they're not jabs!) with fury, and the 4th round he floors Folley. 3 rounds later, Folley is out for good. And Folley was an extraordinary fighter.

Oh yea, Butterfly, you forgot to mention that Foreman was in his prime.

yeah, but folley gave him trouble in those rounds. i had folley winning rounds 1 and 2, especially round 1.

oh, yeah, foreman, i guess i was kind of stuck in the 60s.

Brassangel
12-18-2005, 10:00 PM
Well, I don't blame you for being stuck in the 60's. Ali's physical prime was in the 60's. His ring generalship prime probably came in the 70's though. If he wasn't as smart as he was, he most likely wouldn't have won as often as he did in the 70's. Brilliant!

Oh yeah, back on topic; Tyson is only overrated when people claim him as the greatest. He was excellent when he was on, but his career is summed up as "could have...".

kapersky
12-19-2005, 05:59 AM
well, he did beat at least 2 HOF'ers in their primes besides foreman and frazier, so that would make a good case for him being a top 10 hw.

frazier was not in his prime when he fough ali for the second time.
but prime ali would probably outspeed frazier and win by close ud.

Dempsey 1919
12-19-2005, 01:44 PM
frazier was not in his prime when he fough ali for the second time.
but prime ali would probably outspeed frazier and win by close ud.

alright then, besides foreman.

Brassangel
12-21-2005, 01:32 PM
Regardless of whether or not Ali beat them in, or beyond their primes isn't the issue. On his record, and when discussed by the professional analysts, they will see that Ali's record against the hall-of-famers looks like something like this:

Wins:
Patterson = 2
Frazier = 2
Foreman = 1
Liston = 2
Norton = 2
Chuvalo, Folley, Quarry, etc. etc.

Losses:
Frazier = 1
Norton = 1
Holmes = 1

The categories won't say, "Prime Frazier," or "Non-prime Liston," or "Old Ali vs. Holmes," etc. Clearly, his wins far outweigh his losses. Truthfully, you could walk through many great careers and claim they did or didn't fight anybody worthwhile, or that their opponents were past their prime; or that they themselves were beyond their years. Still, Ali would have been considered great even if he had lost to Frazier twice and Foreman in the jungle. His HOF wins would still outweigh his losses during the toughest era of the sport.

Oh yeah, Tyson was great, he just screwed up lots of things. I figured I'd come back to the topic.

Verstyle
12-21-2005, 01:37 PM
:hijacked: they talkin bout tyson not ali.ahaha

Brassangel
12-21-2005, 02:00 PM
Yeah, the thread just got sidetracked. Sorry about that. I just posted on another thread a hypothetical scenario of Tyson fighting during the 60's-70's. I probably should have placed it here.

McGoorty
07-19-2011, 04:32 AM
Maybe because the quality of opponents he fought on the way up and the fact that he lost his title by KO to a top tier journeyman and that KO went unavenged. Plus, after his KO at the hands of Holyfield and the humiliating DQ loss, he defeated no fighters of note (Golota, Saravese, Williams etc.) for the rest of his career.

I acknowlege his strengths and weaknesses and people are entitled to their own opinion, but I do think that his fans tend to overrate him far too much. At the same time, people who dislike him underrate him grossly as well.
I'm with you AMIRA he is, and it's all true, talk about flogging a dead horse, when will they give up to common reason, he is at best number 3 in his own era so NOT in The TOP 10 Heavyweight ACHEIVERS List. Say what you like about the Very Big Names, they're there because they were Awesome Undisputed champs and none ever bit an ear off (still the most disgracefull act in 3 CENTURIES of BOXING HISTORY,.....,. Nuff said.

McGoorty
07-19-2011, 04:56 AM
yeah, that's true. i have him ranked 6th on my all time list. under ali, liston, holmes, foreman, and frazier.
In Terms of Greatness TYSON is a top 5 fighter of the Eighties and Boxings Brightest star, but he;s just outside the Top 10 All-time HEAVYWEIGHTS (my opinion), but he obviously stands a chance of beating any and all H.W.A.T.G's on a given day due to his punching power but the same could be said of MARCIANO, DEMPSEY, LOUIS, FOREMAN or even a RON LYLE, but on sheer quality of opposition you could name at least 20 who have a better resume' than IRON MAN, REMEMBER every great could lose a fight in a split second to any very good fighter but EVERY GREAT has Stellar names on their resume.

bojangles1987
07-19-2011, 10:05 AM
1. Quality of opponents
2. Lack of mental toughness

Plenty of talent, but I feel he is definitely the lesser fighter than either Holyfield or Lennox, who he is often grouped with and considered the superior to. People also think Tyson is some nightmare for Ali, which I think is simply untrue.