View Full Version : Overeem's Manager: Reem has a reasonable explanation.


kaps
04-17-2012, 03:14 AM
Alistair Overeem’s manager Glenn Robinson has made it clear that Overeem and camp are still confident that aftera hearing on April 24, he will be approved to fight for the UFC heavyweight title on May 26th.

“I spoke with Glenn Robinson, manager of Overeem and he says he is very respectful and is hopeful that he will be granted his license and the entire team is very confident that he will be facing Junior dos Santos come May 26th” related Kenny Rice. “Now Robinson wanted to make it very clear that despite other reports, Overeem did not test high for testosterone, but rather his testosterone to epitestosterone was off and he has a reasonable explanation to why that is, which he will present to the commission next Tuesday.”

Most observers believe that “The Reem” will likely file for TRT exemption. According to NSAC executive director, Keith Kizer, that has not taken place, but he did not rule out his eligibility for exemption at this point.

“Kizer confirmed several things. Overeem has applied for a license to fight in the state and he will have the opportunity to present his case to the commission on why he should be granted that license, despite failing his pre-fight drug test. Now, some have speculated that he may use the defense of testosterone replacement therapy or TRT as a defense as we’ve seen several fighters do before. Speaking with Kizer, he has said Overeem has not applied for TRT exemption, but that does not mean he can’t. He has time to do that. As long as he gives the commission’s doctors time to deal with the situation. “


Cageinsider.com (http://www.cagedinsider.com/ufc/overeems-manager-reason-t-e-ratio/)

kaps
04-17-2012, 03:15 AM
Hopefully this means the fight will still be on...

Virgil Caine
04-17-2012, 11:16 AM
Who would've thought that so many MMA fighters were suffering from chronic testosterone deficiency. Quite the epidemic!

THE REED™
04-17-2012, 11:20 AM
Who would've thought that so many MMA fighters were suffering from chronic testosterone deficiency. Quite the epidemic!

:lol1: :lol1:

Harry Balls
04-17-2012, 11:32 AM
Just let this **** run free. It's absurd that people can get legal exempts, while others get banned for a year.

It should either be heavy penalties among the lines of 3+ years suspension, no TRT allowance, and random testing. Or just let it be legal.

Hopefully Overeem is cleared even if it's ****ing bull****. I want to see the fight.

Banderivets
04-17-2012, 01:00 PM
Correct me if I am wrong but isn't TRT for those who have "previously" abused test?

This is what I got out of a thread on Vargas the other day.

Harry Balls
04-17-2012, 01:46 PM
Correct me if I am wrong but isn't TRT for those who have "previously" abused test?

This is what I got out of a thread on Vargas the other day.

Not necessarily. There is a possibility to have your testosterone levels legitimately ****ed up without prior abuse.

The % of the population with this kind of struggle does not translate to the large amount of pro-athletes that allegedly have these issues though. I've heard of 1 person IRL that have this that didn't abuse steroids on a daily basis for years.

BKM-2010
04-17-2012, 04:09 PM
YES please. Look I'm all for fairness and anti-cheating, but the sport really needs this fight right now for continuity. If Overeem doesn't fight Santos the division is turned upside down again.

My birthday is on the 24th too so if Overeem is cleared it'll be a nice present :)

-Swizzy-
04-17-2012, 04:21 PM
YES please. Look I'm all for fairness and anti-cheating, but the sport really needs this fight right now for continuity. If Overeem doesn't fight Santos the division is turned upside down again.

My birthday is on the 24th too so if Overeem is cleared it'll be a nice present :)

exactly how I feel.

I know reem is in the wrong but I'd rather see this fight than have Reem suspended and there not be a fight.

on paper its easily the juiciest fight mma has ever had in the HW division.

THE REED™
04-17-2012, 04:22 PM
exactly how I feel.

I know reem is in the wrong but I'd rather see this fight than have Reem suspended and there not be a fight.

on paper its easily the juiciest fight mma has ever had in the HW division.

No pun intended.

BKM-2010
04-17-2012, 04:37 PM
Yeah I mean who wants the #2 HW and #1 contender gone for 12+months while the champ has meaninless defenses or worse, loses a fight and the hype and $$ for this matchup is gone, and then when they finally fight there will be excuses for ring rust, not being juiced etc. Simple, we need this fight right now.

-Swizzy-
04-17-2012, 05:11 PM
No pun intended.

lol

.....

Clegg
04-17-2012, 08:05 PM
I guess I'm in the minority in thinking that they shouldn't allow the fight to go ahead. Bah humbug.

Willy Wanker
04-18-2012, 12:15 AM
Who would've thought that so many MMA fighters were suffering from chronic testosterone deficiency. Quite the epidemic!

yeah, must be a side effect of shrunken testicles.

Cathleen81
04-18-2012, 02:05 AM
http://www.infoocean.info/avatar4.jpgAccording to NSAC executive director, Keith Kizer, that has not taken place, but he did not rule out his eligibility for exemption at this point.

jaded
04-18-2012, 02:35 AM
Correct me if I am wrong but isn't TRT for those who have "previously" abused test?

This is what I got out of a thread on Vargas the other day.

Not necessarily. There is a possibility to have your testosterone levels legitimately ****ed up without prior abuse.

The % of the population with this kind of struggle does not translate to the large amount of pro-athletes that allegedly have these issues though. I've heard of 1 person IRL that have this that didn't abuse steroids on a daily basis for years.
Generally...legit candidates for TRT are those over 50 years of age...and people who have done massive amounts of cranking and have shut down their body's ability to produce testosterone as a result of it. The body no longer sees the need to produce any as it recognizes an over abundance of it while the cycle is on. In time for most it will normalize...but not in all cases.

Virgil Caine
04-18-2012, 03:54 AM
Some curious comments from Valanteijn Overeem. I guess he doesn't know when to keep it under his cap.

Ahead of UFC 146, Valentijn Overeem unaware of any testosterone need for brother Alistair
by Steven Marrocco on Apr 17, 2012 at 3:30 pm ET
Valentijn Overeem doesn't know why his brother, Alistair Overeem (36-11 MMA, 1-0 UFC), tested positive for elevated levels of testosterone prior a fight against champ Junior Dos Santos.

But he said it would be news to him if Alistair needed the hormone for medical reasons, as recent speculation would indicate.

"Because I know him so well that I think I should be aware of something like that," Valentijn Overeem today told MMAjunkie.com (www.mmajunkie.com). "If that was the case, I think I would know. I would be surprised."

Alistair Overeem is scheduled to appear before the Nevada State Athletic Commission on April 24 in Las Vegas to explain a 14-to-1 testosterone-to-epitestosterone (T/E) ratio ***8211; well over the 6-to-1 ratio allowed by the commission ***8211; that was revealed by a surprise pre-fight drug test for UFC 146 on March 27.

The heavyweight contender has hired noted celebrity attorney David Chesnoff to represent him at the commission meeting. He has yet to publicly address his failed test, which could prevent him from fighting at UFC 146, which takes place May 26 at MGM Grand Garden Arena in Las Vegas.

This past week his past week, UFC officials submitted a license application on Overeem's behalf for UFC 146. The fighter's conditional license, which was granted for his fight with Brock Lesnar at UFC 141, expired on Dec. 31 of this past year.

Overeem's failed test was one of two he was required to take as a condition of being licensed for UFC 141 after he missed a pre-fight test one month prior to the event.

On Monday, Overeem's manager, Glenn Robinson, told HDNet's Ron Kruck that the fighter has "reasonable explanation" for the high T/E ratio, which will be explained at the April 24 hearing.

Valentijn Overeem, a longtime MMA veteran and former Strikeforce fighter, is in Holland with an expectant girlfriend and said he hasn't trained with his younger brother since he left for the U.S. in March. However, he said he never received any indication that Alistair was suffering from a condition that would necessitate the use of testosterone. He is unsure why the pre-fight drug test came back high for a high T/E ratio.

"There are different reasons why someone could have high testosterone," Valentijn Overeem said. "Taking steroids is one of them. Some people have natural testosterone at a high level anyway. I'm not saying my brother is one of those people, but there's more possibilities. If the [athletic commission] tests the sample again, just to make sure there were no mistakes, I think that would be a good start."

Valentijn could not provide details on a possible defense to the commission and didn't know that his brother had not requested the "B" sample from the positive test, which could either exonerate him if it came back within the accepted T/E ratio or potentially provide damning evidence if the presence of synthetic testosterone is revealed. (NSAC Executive Director Keith Kizer confirmed that Overeem's camp has yet to request the sample.)

He did, however, advocate for random testing and expressed confidence that a second test would clear his brother of wrongdoing. While he believes Alistair should be licensed, he also respects the job of the commission.

"There are certain rules, and athletes have to abide by the rules," Valentijn Overeem said. "If there would be a second opinion or a second test, I'm sure that would change the result. The bottom line is, I think everybody just wants to know the truth. So by being transparent and double checking it, that won't harm anyone."

In the meantime, he asked that observers keep an open mind about his brother.

"You're innocent until proven guilty, and I think that's the way it should be," he said. "Look at Lance Armstrong; they've been talking about him taking stuff forever. Because you're a very good athlete and winning a lot of events doesn't necessarily mean that (you take performance-enhancing drugs). That just means that you're very dedicated and talented. I think that's the case with Alistair.

"There are always going to be people that say, 'I knew this. I knew that.' But then again, let [the commission] do whatever they have to do, and we'll see the result in the end when things are final. I think it's a bit early to jump to conclusions."

Overeem has long been dogged by allegations of steroid use but has never tested positive for banned substances.

UFC president Dana White said Alistair Overeem will get "due process" at the commission hearing before the promotion makes a decision about what to do with the fighter. As of now, the title fight is still on.

Overeem's reps declined comment to MMAjunkie.com pending the NSAC hearing.

For more on UFC 146, stay tuned to the UFC Rumors section of the site.


http://mmajunkie.com/news/28290/ahead-of-ufc-146-valentijn-overeem-unaware-of-any-testosterone-need-for-brother-alistair.mma

monaroCountry
04-18-2012, 05:56 AM
American MMA is rife with drug cheats. This TRT exemption that all these fighters are going for now is nothing but legalized cheating.

Virgil Caine
04-18-2012, 06:58 AM
American MMA is rife with drug cheats. This TRT exemption that all these fighters are going for now is nothing but legalized cheating.
It's basically the equivalent of injecting straight beta-endorphin for pain tolerance, or for that matter using human growth hormone (like testosterone--an anabolic steroid--these substances are also produced naturally by the body).

kaps
04-18-2012, 11:54 AM
American MMA is rife with drug cheats. This TRT exemption that all these fighters are going for now is nothing but legalized cheating.

I guarantee it's worse over seas....

Virgil Caine
04-18-2012, 11:58 AM
I guarantee it's worse over seas....

Not sure why you'd think so. Maybe it is. But then again, the US is probably where the biggest prize money is located. Doping is a fine art, and is probably most advanced in American sportsdome.

Also, the TRT exemption is a load of ****. And we now know (thanks to Rampage) that Zuffa actually encourages it.

kaps
04-18-2012, 12:22 PM
Not sure why you'd think so. Maybe it is. But then again, the US is probably where the biggest prize money is located. Doping is a fine art, and is probably most advanced in American sportsdome.

Also, the TRT exemption is a load of ****. And we now know (thanks to Rampage) that Zuffa actually encourages it.

I only say that because people get caught here, because the AC's test. I never recall anyone from Pride or K-1 getting busted for anything so it's kinda like do whatever you want over there. Remember Smashing Machine? Kerr was loaded up on Opiates days before the 2000GP.....

Virgil Caine
04-18-2012, 12:31 PM
I only say that because people get caught here, because the AC's test. I never recall anyone from Pride or K-1 getting busted for anything so it's kinda like do whatever you want over there. Remember Smashing Machine? Kerr was loaded up on Opiates days before the 2000GP.....
Yeah I know about that, and I don't doubt that there was a lot of **** going on. I tend to find the recent situation in the US at least equally scandalous though. In fact, the US sports society has had the worst juicing scandals, save for maybe the Eastern Europe/East Germany/USSR situations in the Olympics in years past. The fact that all this stuff has come out recently about testosterone usage as a bit damning (testosterone is an anabolic steroid). Then there is the fact that juicing undetected (including in the Olympics, where testing is very strict) was going on, as has been well known at least since the Balco scandal, is more fuel for the fire as it were. This type of stuff makes more of an impact for me than rumors batted around the internet about everyone in Japan juicing.

But, the testing situation is true, but this stuff is pretty scandalous. It's a little bit hard to compare the different cases (lack of adequate testing vs sophisticated juicing, and now TRT exemptions).

jaded
04-18-2012, 04:00 PM
I doubt the govt's overseas get involved with congressional investigations concerning PED's and athletes...I'm sure it has to be easier to use them anywhere else.

Blackfoot
04-18-2012, 08:06 PM
Reasonable explanation: trying to get jacked

Virgil Caine
04-19-2012, 02:24 AM
I doubt the govt's overseas get involved with congressional investigations concerning PED's and athletes...I'm sure it has to be easier to use them anywhere else.

That's true, but at the same time sports is a huge industry in the US, and I'd say the US probably has the most sophisticated doping. Probably the International Olympic Committee (or what ever it's called) is the strictest. I'm sure it's easier to get away with doping in other countries, but that doesn't mean that more people dope, it would just mean that the people who do dope don't need to be as sophisticated. The high stakes of American sports alone leads one to believe that doping is a huge deal in the states. Also, the verifiable existence of large-scale doping scandals in the US weighs more heavily to me than unsubstantiated rumors. Doping is a universal problem in sports, but at least when it comes to the highest level of professional sports (the multi-million dollar contracts and the like) I wouldn't be surprised if the US is a focal point of doping. Also, the dopers are always a step ahead of the regulators (at that level).

BEDROOM BULLY
04-19-2012, 08:10 AM
Na screw this the guy has been up to something.. Sure his gains are explainable if he was just lifting.. But the guy has been training mma and fighting very regular since he has had this transformation.. It doesn't add up..

I think. It's kind of a shame u guys are saying **** it we want to see the fight.. I don't mind if jsa knocks this heater the **** out but if overeem wins it casts a huge cloud over mma imo

Harry Balls
04-19-2012, 08:30 AM
^

Bedroom Bully,

It would be hypocritical of me to say "let Overeem burn, he's a ****ing cheater!!" and not be fine with him fighting JDS as anyone with half a brain realized he WAS ALWAYS on the stuff. If i go in with a mindset that 95% of the heavyweights in this sport are juicing (and that is probably a fair assessment) i don't see how Overeem is gaining unfair advantages at all.

Eff Pandas
04-19-2012, 10:12 AM
Testosterone marinated horse meat recipe gone wrong?

Clegg
04-19-2012, 10:28 AM
Mir didn't test positive. Cain didn't test positive. Most importantly, JDS didn't test positive.

Yeah let's allow a drug cheat to fight a clean athlete because some people make unproven claims that most fighters are probably on drugs anyway. Right.

This guy is a fraud. If it goes ahead then he's going into the fight with a size and strength advantage because he cheated. Simple as that.

Let him go to Japan and have a 'best of 7' series with Bob Sapp or whatever.

BEDROOM BULLY
04-19-2012, 10:31 AM
^

Bedroom Bully,

It would be hypocritical of me to say "let Overeem burn, he's a ****ing cheater!!" and not be fine with him fighting JDS as anyone with half a brain realized he WAS ALWAYS on the stuff. If i go in with a mindset that 95% of the heavyweights in this sport are juicing (and that is probably a fair assessment) i don't see how Overeem is gaining unfair advantages at all.

Nono I don't believe this at all is right..

Are you saying jds is in that 95%?

Roy Nelson? Cain? Etc

Sure others maybe on stuff but I haven't seen anyone go from average fighter to a complete destroyer while also obtaining a body which would make a greek god envious.

Harry Balls
04-19-2012, 11:15 AM
yeah i think both Cain and jds are on it. Roy Nelson? Who the hell knows but hes one of the guys i give a pass because hes a nutjob and trains in weird ways. Not because of his bodyfat because it has nothing to do with it.

95% of the good ones. of all hw population probably not that many.

It's really hard to compete with others who take this stuff if you don't. These guys do 2 workouts a day 6 days a week with lots of weightlifting, technique, cardio etc. Some could work up that tolerance, but most wont without peds.

Eff Pandas
04-19-2012, 12:02 PM
It's really hard to compete with others who take this stuff if you don't.

People always say this, but its not like using PED's gives you superpowers beyond the normal human. It bumps u up a couple notches from where u are at don't get it wrong, but its not like the best guy in every division is on them or the #10 ranked guy in every division is taking out the champion if he's using PED's.

-Swizzy-
04-19-2012, 12:39 PM
American MMA is rife with drug cheats. This TRT exemption that all these fighters are going for now is not hing but legalized cheating.

lol, in a thread about a European MMA fighter who has fought over 95% of his fights overseas and has tested positive for testosterone levels WAY higher than any American fighter ever has.

Not too bright.

Oh and its easy not to get caught for PED's when you're fighting in organizations that don't do any drug tests. ie: all non-american organizations.

Virgil Caine
04-19-2012, 01:29 PM
People always say this, but its not like using PED's gives you superpowers beyond the normal human. It bumps u up a couple notches from where u are at don't get it wrong, but its not like the best guy in every division is on them or the #10 ranked guy in every division is taking out the champion if he's using PED's.

Yeah, you're right.

Probably a lot of them are.

But not all of them.

For example, BJ Penn doesn't strike me as a roider. I don't really think JDS is a roider either. I don't think Fedor is or was a roider. I don't see a guy like Aoki as a roider. Many other guys as well, I don't see as necessarily roiders.

Any one of these guys could be roiding, nobody knows, but I don't think they are likely candidates.

Roids afford many advantages. But they don't give you a chin, and they don't allow you to not be submitted. Some drugs do give you pain tolerance. Hell, for all we know Miesha Tate was oxied out of her mind against Ronda Rhousey in order to allow her arm to be bent in such strange configurations there. But the idea that 95% of fighters are juicing is really bullsht, and is probably just an excuse to tacitly support fighters who are cheaters.

I have mixed feelings about Overeem right now. I use to consider myself a fan, but I had my suspicions. It's hard to support the guy at this point in any capacity. I wasn't a big fan or anything, but I did consider him the best HW. Now, all of his accomplishments are tainted. People had suspicions of course, but it is one thing to have suspicions and another to have confirmation. I don't think he deserves the shot. But I'm sure the Zuffa law, medicinal, and PR crews are working overtime right now on how to smooth this one over.

Harry Balls
04-19-2012, 01:34 PM
People always say this, but its not like using PED's gives you superpowers beyond the normal human. It bumps u up a couple notches from where u are at don't get it wrong, but its not like the best guy in every division is on them or the #10 ranked guy in every division is taking out the champion if he's using PED's.
No but every single athlete is better on peds than without them.

The main benefit is they will be able to train way more and with more intensity.
Not to mention the benefits of the increased testosterone if you go that certain route.

Peds are fantastic. The big thing to remember though is that those guys often train much harder than those without it, so it's not like you take a pill and it makes it "easy". It's much harder but the benefit is the "much harder" is manageable without breaking your body to a pulp.

Harry Balls
04-19-2012, 01:37 PM
Yeah, you're right.

Probably a lot of them are.

But not all of them.

For example, BJ Penn doesn't strike me as a roider. I don't really think JDS is a roider either. I don't think Fedor is or was a roider. I don't see a guy like Aoki as a roider. Many other guys as well, I don't see as necessarily roiders.

Any one of these guys could be roiding, nobody knows, but I don't think they are likely candidates.

Roids afford many advantages. But they don't give you a chin, and they don't allow you to not be submitted. Some drugs do give you pain tolerance. Hell, for all we know Miesha Tate was oxied out of her mind against Ronda Rhousey in order to allow her arm to be bent in such strange configurations there. But the idea that 95% of fighters are juicing is really bullsht, and is probably just an excuse to tacitly support fighters who are cheaters.

I have mixed feelings about Overeem right now. I use to consider myself a fan, but I had my suspicions. It's hard to support the guy at this point in any capacity. I wasn't a big fan or anything, but I did consider him the best HW. Now, all of his accomplishments are tainted. People had suspicions of course, but it is one thing to have suspicions and another to have confirmation. I don't think he deserves the shot. But I'm sure the Zuffa law, medicinal, and PR crews are working overtime right now on how to smooth this one over.
Well Bj Penn is probably one of the guys i would be surprised if he got busted for it, but he's an outlier.

But jds? Why would you be surprised if he was on it? Because he's a good guy?
The guy is built like a tank and train as hard as anyone.

Also don't fool yourself by equating peds = great physique. There's a million different benefits to a million different kinds of peds. Most ped users don't look like Overeem. Not in size or as shredded.

I'm not "supporting" fighters or making excuses when they get busted. I'm just saying i think most are on it. It's just common sense if you compare the ability to train and the physique compared to eras where athletes didn't have these tools accessible.
How could a guy like jds train as much as Overeem if hes not on it?

I don't know. Maybe I'm too pessimistic, but with the money involved and the alternatives for these people from poor upbringing i just don't see why anyone would not use it. It's like people thinking Usain Bolt is a clean athlete. It's just no ****ing way.

Virgil Caine
04-19-2012, 02:19 PM
Well Bj Penn is probably one of the guys i would be surprised if he got busted for it, but he's an outlier.

But jds? Why would you be surprised if he was on it? Because he's a good guy?
The guy is built like a tank and train as hard as anyone.

Also don't fool yourself by equating peds = great physique. There's a million different benefits to a million different kinds of peds. Most ped users don't look like Overeem. Not in size or as shredded.

I'm not "supporting" fighters or making excuses when they get busted. I'm just saying i think most are on it. It's just common sense if you compare the ability to train and the physique compared to eras where athletes didn't have these tools accessible.
How could a guy like jds train as much as Overeem if hes not on it?

I don't know. Maybe I'm too pessimistic, but with the money involved and the alternatives for these people from poor upbringing i just don't see why anyone would not use it. It's like people thinking Usain Bolt is a clean athlete. It's just no ****ing way.
Why I don't think JSD?

I guess to be fair one reason is recent comments by JDS against juicing regarding the Overeem situation:



"If the fight happens I will fight with pleasure, but I can tell if it is proved that the use of illegal substances is disrespect to the sport and something unfair to me. The ratio of testosterone in his body that there may be increased by 30% his strength and aggressiveness of it, I was told people who know the subject. Will really be unfair fight, but as a fighter will be ready to face anyone.



He stated before that he doesn't know what the Nevada State Athletic Commission will do, but he insinuates that if Overeem is indeed licensed, it's a slap in the face to the sport and unfair to him as a fighter. He also re-affirms that he is clean and that the testing needs to be improved:

If the athletic commission and the UFC want I'll fight him. I am a fighter and will be there to fight, but it is sure to be disrespect to MMA and how serious is this sport. This will also be unfair, it will be unfair to me. I've never used these devices to gain strength. I think the right would do blood tests on wrestlers as is done in the Olympics, not the urine, since the blood is easier to detect these illegal substances. We want to know who the best really. No use to be the best liar. Being a world champion making false use of a lot of drugs, that's not being champion. I can clearly say that I am the champion without ever having the use of any illegal artifice in order to get there. I favor more rigorous tests to assess whether someone is doped. It has to be a clean sport and these tests should occur more surprises. If Overeem is more aggressive and stronger the more he will resist blows and it will be difficult for me. If I lose will be unfair. He will not have fought better than I have fought doped."
http://www.bloodyanus.com/2012/4/11/2942413/ufc-146-junior-dos-santos-will-fight-alistair-overeem-but-feels-it-is

But also stylistically, I don't think that he is a guy who relies on cutting corners.

And for the record, I've been saying all over these parts for a long time that I consider JDS to be way overrated. I've always considered the guy to be one of the heavyweights with the most potential out there, but I just think that people have always been putting the cart before the horse with him, and I'm just still waiting for him to prove that he is what everyone seems to think he might be.

But of course, juicing is always a possibility with any top athlete. I just don't think JDS matches the portrait of a guy who relies on juicing. But until the days of better testing comes along, we will never be sure about anyone. I suppose that this is why the clean athletes are so adamant about the need for better testing all the time.

Whether JDS is a clean athlete, I don't know, but his comments do speak for themselves a little.

Harry Balls
04-19-2012, 02:53 PM
i agree that 95% is an overstatement. I would be surprised however if more than 50% were clean out of the top20 heavyweights.

Jds statements are about what i would expect a guy in his position to say. Chael Sonnen made some negative remarks towards Overeem too.

If going by the bloodyelbow top20 ranking i would say that the following fighters would/wouldn't surprise me if they're using peds (id be surprised everytime anyone is caught as it's real sloppy)

Not surprised
Jds
Overeem ***
Velasquez
Werdum
Mir
Barnett ***
Carwin ***
Cormier
Bigfoot ***
Schaub
Hunt
Browne
Lesnar
Kongo
Konrad
Kharitonov

Surprised
Nogueira (not sure on this)
Fedor
Russow (not that bodyfat is an indicator, but he just feels sloppy and not like a gymrat at all)
Nelson (because he's a crazy ****er and those are more likely to do their own thing)

*** = 20% = confirmed cheaters. Carwin could technically be considered innocent, but you don't just show up on steroid peddlers customer list without a reason.

Clegg
04-19-2012, 08:02 PM
No offence Harry but I think a lot of the arguments you're making in this thread are just guesswork.

To say that those training as hard as Overeem must be on the same stuff is just wrong. You and I may not be able to do it, but there are guys out there who can, especially as not all training is going to be done at full intensity.

I also disagree with the 'peds always make you better' argument.

First of all is that there are different types and some are not going to be suited to the athlete's needs. Yeah, that's obvious, but I doubt every single pro fighter knows exactly what they should take. Secondly is that some of those who have been caught out in the past seemed to have no benefit from it. If anything, Shane Mosley was worse on steroids than he was without them. Vargas didn't show any noticeable benefits the time he got caught either. Jones Jr and Holyfield were helped by it, but I'm not saying it never helps, just that it doesn't always make a positive overall difference.

Also, steroids can make you gain mass and even if that's muscle mass it can do more harm than good. A 265lb JDS wouldn't perform as well imo.

jaded
04-19-2012, 09:49 PM
^

Bedroom Bully,

It would be hypocritical of me to say "let Overeem burn, he's a ****ing cheater!!" and not be fine with him fighting JDS as anyone with half a brain realized he WAS ALWAYS on the stuff. If i go in with a mindset that 95% of the heavyweights in this sport are juicing (and that is probably a fair assessment) i don't see how Overeem is gaining unfair advantages at all.

Nono I don't believe this at all is right..

Are you saying jds is in that 95%?

Roy Nelson? Cain? Etc

Sure others maybe on stuff but I haven't seen anyone go from average fighter to a complete destroyer while also obtaining a body which would make a greek god envious.

Steroids won't transform most people into Greek Gods...Josh Barnett tested positive for steroids and he has kind of a pudgy looking body. It still come down to genetics even with steroids and results do vary greatly. I've known guys who become almost unrecognizable over night...and other who only become somewhat more bloated/bulky looking even after a fairly long period of usage.

I'd say 99% of all athletes use PED's at one time or another period...even the ones that point fingers like Mayweather. I'd say just make it legal...that would level the playing field. The drugs have been in use since the 30's.

Banderivets
04-20-2012, 12:06 AM
Well I know for a fact, 100% that Georges Saint Pierre used roids.

How do I know? A friend of myn trained in the same gym as him in Montreal in Georges early days. The man has pictures in training gear with the guy back when Georges was till unknown, and honestly the guy has no reason to lie.

Well, back then Georges and couple of his gym buddies would take the **** in the locker room, and did not make a big secret of it.

I mean the man was a bouncer for petes sake...I know a lot of bouncers, and damn near every single one of them is on juice, even the fat ones are on teh juice...

Sorry guys but I believe that majority of athletes took juice at some point in their life...They might have stopped once they got big because of fears of getting caught...or simply because they had no need to anymore....but most guys juiced at some point.

Virgil Caine
04-20-2012, 01:29 AM
No offence Harry but I think a lot of the arguments you're making in this thread are just guesswork.

To say that those training as hard as Overeem must be on the same stuff is just wrong. You and I may not be able to do it, but there are guys out there who can, especially as not all training is going to be done at full intensity.

I also disagree with the 'peds always make you better' argument.

First of all is that there are different types and some are not going to be suited to the athlete's needs. Yeah, that's obvious, but I doubt every single pro fighter knows exactly what they should take. Secondly is that some of those who have been caught out in the past seemed to have no benefit from it. If anything, Shane Mosley was worse on steroids than he was without them. Vargas didn't show any noticeable benefits the time he got caught either. Jones Jr and Holyfield were helped by it, but I'm not saying it never helps, just that it doesn't always make a positive overall difference.

Also, steroids can make you gain mass and even if that's muscle mass it can do more harm than good. A 265lb JDS wouldn't perform as well imo.

To be fair, that is sort of Mosely's own defense. It has some merit and I get what you're saying, but I feel like I should point out that he also jumped straight from 135 to 147 earlier in his career and then up to 154. I know that the Dela Hoya fight is the confirmed cheat fight and he did look sluggish (though he did win the fight by a close margin, so you never know). But his weight gain may also have been assisted by juicing (ala Jones).

Harry Balls
04-20-2012, 01:57 AM
No offence Harry but I think a lot of the arguments you're making in this thread are just guesswork.
Yeah obviously. No one could know for sure, I'm just stating what i find logical.

I also disagree with the 'peds always make you better' argument.
Being able to train more and recover faster would always make you better. It's the ability for increased workload that is the main benefit.

First of all is that there are different types and some are not going to be suited to the athlete's needs
Yes and not every steroid is for musclemass. It can be for recovery, for weightcutting, for stamina and everything inbetween. If you're a female gymnast you won't pump Deca Durabolin into your system obviously.

As for your "it didn't help Vargas" etc, well that's if you assume they've only been on it when they got caught. It's very reasonable to think Roy Jones has been using helpful stimulants for a very long time developing the speed and explosiveness he possessed. He was basically the perfect athlete and i don't think you can get to there "clean".
I'm speculating of course.

Harry Balls
04-24-2012, 02:44 PM
Latest news

Keith Kizer: When Overeem found out about the random test he drove away


Hahahahaha. This is like a cartoon or something.

Overeem later returned when he was told his test would be auto-treated as failed if he didn't return.

Ufc says they told Overeem he could not leave. But he did.

Probably not guilty.