View Full Version : Why do so many of you hate on muhammad ali?


Dempsey 1919
11-26-2005, 05:12 PM
i don't get it? this is baffling. he is the greatest of all times, but some people hate on his so much, it's crazy! i mean they have people like louis beating ali. louis always had trouble with fast guys, like billy conn. well, who was a better fast, moving hw then ali? they said louis would counter ali all day? do you know how close he has to get to his opponents to throw flurries? ali would not allow himself to be that close. his footwork is better, so he wouldn't be cornered. theres no way ali is getting beat. ali is extremely strong! he basically manhandled liston in their first fight, and muscled "big" george foreman in '74. and he embarrased both of them! yet he is not that good and foreman could destroy him. bull! that's like saying frazier would destroy foreman when foreman destroyed him twice! and they say marciano would destroy ali, LOL!! ali would annihilate marciano in a matter of a few rounds. marciano would punish his body, worst statement ever made! marciano has a 67" reach, and ali never lets anybody get close to him in his prime, so marciano's short hands will punish ali's body. on top of that foreman couldn't hurt ali's midsection, so how would marciano? some people say marciano is the hardest hitter ever. well, he looked good fighting people with glass chins and small, bums like himself. the way i see it, the only people that think rocky could beat ali, are WHITE. and some of them are really, really racist. i mean one thread asked who would win, marciano or jake lamotta, and i swear, this guy had to be a white racist, cause he answered, "nobody beats the rock, but lamotta would do much better against marciano than that moolie clay would." well, i don't know what a moolie is, but i bet that translate into *****!
and so lamotta, a slow-footed middleweight could beat ali? and he called him clay, which proves he's white and racist, and wants to keep ali as with a white, slave name! there is no way rocky beats any top ten hw, let alone the #1 hw. frazier can't beat ali, cause he, for the most part didn't. i guarantee you all ali had to do was fight more fights and get more experience before fighting frazier, and he would have beat him. he only had two fights prior, and one was only three rounds. a prime ali would have done much better, so there is no contest. there is no real, legitimate reason why any fighter period would beat ali, because ali had great speed, great chin, and a pretty good punch, and enormous strength!

i have come to the conclusion that ali beat their favorite fighters so their mad at ali, or they are white, and need someone like marciano or dempsey to be their savior, or they are war veterans, or related to veterans, or related to veterans who died in combat, so they are mad ali didn't go to vietnam, or they didn't like ali's showmanship. do you realize that no hw copied his style yet, because it is so hard! or maybe they want their favorite fighters to be the greatest, so they are mad that their not. also he is 15-3 against hall of fame heavyweight fighters. he has the best resume ever, i just don't understand how people can hate on him so much? what has he ever done to ya'll?

http://www.nndb.com/people/487/000022421/1048606238.jpg

M26
11-26-2005, 06:00 PM
i don't get it? this is baffling. he is the greatest of all times, but some people hate on his so much, it's crazy! i mean they have people like louis beating ali. louis always had trouble with fast guys, like billy conn. well, who was a better fast, moving hw then ali? they said louis would counter ali all day? do you know how close he has to get to his opponents to throw flurries? ali would not allow himself to be that close. his footwork is better, so he wouldn't be cornered. theres no way ali is getting beat. ali is extremely strong! he basically manhandled liston in their first fight, and muscled "big" george foreman in '74. and he embarrased both of them! yet he is not that good and foreman could destroy him. bull! that's like saying frazier would destroy foreman when foreman destroyed him twice! and they say marciano would destroy ali, LOL!! ali would annihilate marciano in a matter of a few rounds. marciano would punish his body, worst statement ever made! marciano has a 67" reach, and ali never lets anybody get close to him in his prime, so marciano's short hands will punish ali's body. on top of that foreman couldn't hurt ali's midsection, so how would marciano? some people say marciano is the hardest hitter evr. well, he looked good fighting people with glass chins and small, bums like himself. the way i see it, the only people that think rocky could beat ali, are WHITE. and some of them are really, really racist. i mean one thread asked who would win, marciano or jake lamotta, and i swear, this guy had to be a white racist, cause he answered, "nobody beats the rock, but lamotta would do much better against marciano than that moolie clay would." well, i don't know what a moolie is, but i bet that translate into *****!
and so lamotta, a slow-footed middleweight could beat ali? and he called him clay, which proves he's white and racist, and wants to keep ali as with a white, slave name! there is no way rocky beats any top ten hw, let alone the #1 hw. frazier can't beat ali, cause he, for the most part didn't. i guarantee you all ali had to do was fight more fights and get more experience before fighting frazier, and he would have beat him. he only had two fights prior, and one was only three rounds. a prime ali would have done much better, so there is no contest. there is no real, legitimate reason why any fighter period would beat ali, because ali had great speed, great chin, and a pretty good punch, and enormous strength!

i have come to the conclusion that ali beat their favorite fighters so their mad at ali, or they are white, and need someone like marciano or dempsey to be their savior, or they are war veterans, or related to veterans, or related to veterans who died in combat, so they are mad ali didn't go to vietnam, or they didn't like ali's showmanship. do you realize that no hw copied his style yet, because it is so hard! or maybe they want their favorite fighters to be the greatest, so they are mad that their not. also he is 15-3 against hall of fame heavyweight fighters. he has the best resume ever, i just don't understand how people can hate on him so much? what has he ever done to ya'll?

http://www.nndb.com/people/487/000022421/1048606238.jpg

What has thinking somebody could beat Muhammad Ali got to do with hating him?

I am almost positive that you and that tommyhearns804 fella are the same guy. You seem more polite, but something aint right here.

Frazier's 15th round
11-26-2005, 06:35 PM
Frazier would beat him easily in their primes. Ali even said so.

rge
11-26-2005, 08:05 PM
The answer is easy.

He talked, and talked, and talked...

Everytime, everywhere, even at the middle of the fight...

And talked, and talked, and talked, and talked, and...

I like no talk and more action, like Lacy does now.

And talked, and talked, and talked, and...

He isn't humble. He talked, and talked and talked...

leff
11-26-2005, 08:06 PM
disagreing with ali being the gratest isnt necessary hating its just an opinon.

cant remember that ive heard about anyone who hates ali....well execpt his opponents.

i do believe marciano would have a good shot at ali, doesnt mean i hate ali.

actually i love them both

Dempsey 1919
11-26-2005, 08:08 PM
What has thinking somebody could beat Muhammad Ali got to do with hating him?

I am almost positive that you and that tommyhearns804 fella are the same guy. You seem more polite, but something aint right here.

oh yeah, i'm tommyhearns804, get the hell out of here! hearns specifically stated how he hates ali's guts and talks about how foreman would whup ali if they rematched, and that ali wasn't that smart a fighter since he has parkinson's now, and stupid stuff like that.

i have ali on my avatar, and my sig, and i quote him all the time, and i adore the genius! so how can we be the same person?

moy22487
11-26-2005, 08:11 PM
something that i could never understand with ali is how he pulls great victorys over his taughest opponents and just bearly did enough to beat the leser ones( my spelling sucks ya get what im trying to say tho)

Dempsey 1919
11-26-2005, 10:05 PM
disagreing with ali being the gratest isnt necessary hating its just an opinon.

cant remember that ive heard about anyone who hates ali....well execpt his opponents.

i do believe marciano would have a good shot at ali, doesnt mean i hate ali.

actually i love them both

yeah, but some people are just stupid, like saying that foreman could beat a prime ali. or norton, or even tyson lol!

Dempsey 1919
11-26-2005, 10:19 PM
Frazier would beat him easily in their primes. Ali even said so.

don't make me laugh. see, this is what i'm talking about. ali beat frazier, so frazier fans will say that frazier will kill ali, just out of anger that this man conquered his favorite fighter.

"ali even said so." you know what that's called? respect. every fighter does it. you think right after a fight, he would say, yeah, well if i was younger i would beat him? no! that is showing no class and sportsmanship. well, answer me this? if frazier could beat ali easily in his prime, then how come a prime frazier struggled against a lay-off ridden and slower ali? that doesn't make any sense.

this is exactly the kind of jive i was talking about. hating on ali. and you have such weak reasons when matching him up against other fighters, it's just sad.

Frazier's 15th round
11-26-2005, 10:37 PM
don't make me laugh. see, this is what i'm talking about. ali beat frazier, so frazier fans will say that frazier will kill ali, just out of anger that this man conquered his favorite fighter.

I didn't say Frazier would kill Ali. I'm saying Frazier would beat him the majority of the time in prime matchups. It's not out of anger, it's out of skills and styles.

"ali even said so." you know what that's called? respect. every fighter does it. you think right after a fight, he would say, yeah, well if i was younger i would beat him? no! that is showing no class and sportsmanship.

Ali had no class. He would disrespect his black opponents on a regular basis. Badly. He treated them so bad, that some hated him for years. He was a womanizer. He contradicted himself all the time. He didn't even have a clue what he was standing up for. Muslims would just feed him lines like "I ain't got no quarrel with them Viet Cong". He picked up his whole persona from a ****ing wrestler he watched as a kid.

well, answer me this? if frazier could beat ali easily in his prime, then how come a prime frazier struggled against a lay-off ridden and slower ali? that doesn't make any sense.

He didn't really struggle. Ali went all out in the first few rounds, trying to put away Frazier early. But Frazier connected with hooks on a regular basis. The only good laters rounds that Ali had were 9 and 14. Frazier gave him the beating of a lifetime.

this is exactly the kind of jive i was talking about. hating on ali. and you have such weak reasons when matching him up against other fighters, it's just sad.

No, reasoning has nothing to do with it. You're just mad that I pick against Ali. God forbid.

blockhead
11-26-2005, 11:12 PM
i don't get it? this is baffling. he is the greatest of all times, but some people hate on his so much, it's crazy! i mean they have people like louis beating ali. louis always had trouble with fast guys, like billy conn. well, who was a better fast, moving hw then ali? they said louis would counter ali all day? do you know how close he has to get to his opponents to throw flurries? ali would not allow himself to be that close. his footwork is better, so he wouldn't be cornered. theres no way ali is getting beat. ali is extremely strong! he basically manhandled liston in their first fight, and muscled "big" george foreman in '74. and he embarrased both of them! yet he is not that good and foreman could destroy him. bull! that's like saying frazier would destroy foreman when foreman destroyed him twice! and they say marciano would destroy ali, LOL!! ali would annihilate marciano in a matter of a few rounds. marciano would punish his body, worst statement ever made! marciano has a 67" reach, and ali never lets anybody get close to him in his prime, so marciano's short hands will punish ali's body. on top of that foreman couldn't hurt ali's midsection, so how would marciano? some people say marciano is the hardest hitter ever. well, he looked good fighting people with glass chins and small, bums like himself. the way i see it, the only people that think rocky could beat ali, are WHITE. and some of them are really, really racist. i mean one thread asked who would win, marciano or jake lamotta, and i swear, this guy had to be a white racist, cause he answered, "nobody beats the rock, but lamotta would do much better against marciano than that moolie clay would." well, i don't know what a moolie is, but i bet that translate into *****!
and so lamotta, a slow-footed middleweight could beat ali? and he called him clay, which proves he's white and racist, and wants to keep ali as with a white, slave name! there is no way rocky beats any top ten hw, let alone the #1 hw. frazier can't beat ali, cause he, for the most part didn't. i guarantee you all ali had to do was fight more fights and get more experience before fighting frazier, and he would have beat him. he only had two fights prior, and one was only three rounds. a prime ali would have done much better, so there is no contest. there is no real, legitimate reason why any fighter period would beat ali, because ali had great speed, great chin, and a pretty good punch, and enormous strength!

i have come to the conclusion that ali beat their favorite fighters so their mad at ali, or they are white, and need someone like marciano or dempsey to be their savior, or they are war veterans, or related to veterans, or related to veterans who died in combat, so they are mad ali didn't go to vietnam, or they didn't like ali's showmanship. do you realize that no hw copied his style yet, because it is so hard! or maybe they want their favorite fighters to be the greatest, so they are mad that their not. also he is 15-3 against hall of fame heavyweight fighters. he has the best resume ever, i just don't understand how people can hate on him so much? what has he ever done to ya'll?

http://www.nndb.com/people/487/000022421/1048606238.jpg
just because others give recognition to other fighters doesnt mean they hate on ali. you are obsessed with ali and you think that any critisism of him is hating. i love ali. but there are a lot of other fighters in the history of the sport.

Punster
11-27-2005, 01:21 AM
Trash talking is one thing but he went way, way too far both in and out of the ring. I mean this isn't just trash talking, he ruined people's lives by bashing them based upon their race, their mother and everything in between. Yeah, he was a great boxer but that doesn't excuse the things he said about some of his opponents.

Then right around when the U.S. was contemplating a draft, he becomes Muslim, changes his name to Muhammad Ali and refuses to fight for his country.

M26
11-27-2005, 06:21 AM
oh yeah, i'm tommyhearns804, get the hell out of here! hearns specifically stated how he hates ali's guts and talks about how foreman would whup ali if they rematched, and that ali wasn't that smart a fighter since he has parkinson's now, and stupid stuff like that.

i have ali on my avatar, and my sig, and i quote him all the time, and i adore the genius! so how can we be the same person?

My bad. :o

You just sometimes remind me of him, thats all. But like I said, you seem more polite. I won't bring this up again. :)

Dempsey 1919
11-28-2005, 01:26 PM
Trash talking is one thing but he went way, way too far both in and out of the ring. I mean this isn't just trash talking, he ruined people's lives by bashing them based upon their race, their mother and everything in between. Yeah, he was a great boxer but that doesn't excuse the things he said about some of his opponents.

Then right around when the U.S. was contemplating a draft, he becomes Muslim, changes his name to Muhammad Ali and refuses to fight for his country.

ok, now i don't remember him talking about someone's ethnicity, nor someone's mama.

and what does that have to do with his boxing? i'm not saying he was the best person, nobody's perfect, just that he was the best boxer.

Punster
11-28-2005, 04:05 PM
ok, now i don't remember him talking about someone's ethnicity, nor someone's mama.

and what does that have to do with his boxing? i'm not saying he was the best person, nobody's perfect, just that he was the best boxer.

You don't remember him calling several boxers an "Uncle Tom"?

The question was why do people hate Ali. I don't hate him for boxing. He was one of the best, if not the best boxer of all time. But as person, I hate him.

Frazier wasn't the only one who wanted to kill Ali. He was just more outspoken about it.

Yogi
11-28-2005, 04:20 PM
I don't hate Ali, but to this day I'm still trying to figure out why Ali so blatantly ducked Duane Bobick in the spring of '77.

Dempsey 1919
11-28-2005, 04:26 PM
You don't remember him calling several boxers an "Uncle Tom"?

The question was why do people hate Ali. I don't hate him for boxing. He was one of the best, if not the best boxer of all time. But as person, I hate him.

Frazier wasn't the only one who wanted to kill Ali. He was just more outspoken about it.

uncle tom means that they cater to the white man, or as some people call it, selling out, i don't see how that is racist.

and i didn't ask why people hate him, although that is baffling enough, but i asked why so many hate on ali. i mean why they try to downgrade his accomplishments for no apparent reason, when the reasons or logic they give is a big joke?

Punster
11-29-2005, 12:54 AM
and i didn't ask why people hate him, although that is baffling enough, but i asked why so many hate on ali. i mean why they try to downgrade his accomplishments for no apparent reason, when the reasons or logic they give is a big joke?

Oh, that answer is pretty easy. It's because people like going against the grain sometimes. They like going against mainstream opinions. Some people think they sound more educated when they go in depth about how [insert unknown boxer here] from God knows how long ago was better than Ali.

It's the whole condescending thing. Just like there are movie snobs who hate anything that becomes popular or mainstream, there are boxing snobs who will intentionally go against what is generally believed.

Dempsey 1919
11-29-2005, 01:47 AM
Oh, that answer is pretty easy. It's because people like going against the grain sometimes. They like going against mainstream opinions. Some people think they sound more educated when they go in depth about how [insert unknown boxer here] from God knows how long ago was better than Ali.

It's the whole condescending thing. Just like there are movie snobs who hate anything that becomes popular or mainstream, there are boxing snobs who will intentionally go against what is generally believed.

well, i actually looked into it myself, and with his style of boxing, i don't believe any hw before him had ever seen anything like that, and the ones after him have not been able to duplicate that either.

Dempsey 1919
02-27-2006, 07:58 PM
i see the ali hating started back on this forum.

RockyMarcianofan00
02-27-2006, 09:51 PM
don't make me laugh. see, this is what i'm talking about. ali beat frazier, so frazier fans will say that frazier will kill ali, just out of anger that this man conquered his favorite fighter.

"ali even said so." you know what that's called? respect. every fighter does it. you think right after a fight, he would say, yeah, well if i was younger i would beat him? no! that is showing no class and sportsmanship. well, answer me this? if frazier could beat ali easily in his prime, then how come a prime frazier struggled against a lay-off ridden and slower ali? that doesn't make any sense.

this is exactly the kind of jive i was talking about. hating on ali. and you have such weak reasons when matching him up against other fighters, it's just sad.
since when was ali worried about sportsmanship
:p

seriously though i think your confusing hate with not being favorite fighter

I don't hate Ali but he's not my favorite fighter either

hellfire508
02-27-2006, 11:28 PM
I didn't say Frazier would kill Ali. I'm saying Frazier would beat him the majority of the time in prime matchups. It's not out of anger, it's out of skills and styles.

Ali had no class. He would disrespect his black opponents on a regular basis. Badly. He treated them so bad, that some hated him for years. He was a womanizer. He contradicted himself all the time. He didn't even have a clue what he was standing up for. Muslims would just feed him lines like "I ain't got no quarrel with them Viet Cong". He picked up his whole persona from a ****ing wrestler he watched as a kid.

He didn't really struggle. Ali went all out in the first few rounds, trying to put away Frazier early. But Frazier connected with hooks on a regular basis. The only good laters rounds that Ali had were 9 and 14. Frazier gave him the beating of a lifetime.

No, reasoning has nothing to do with it. You're just mad that I pick against Ali. God forbid.

Bottom line is, Ali got the better of the trilogy. Frazier fought the fight of his life against Ali in 71, whereas Ali was a long way from the Ali that danced cirles around Terrell, Williams and Folley. He wasn't moving much at all, and looked a little sluggish at times. He came back after 3.5 years off, faced Quarry and Bonavena (3rd and 4th contenders), then fought the undefeated Frazier for the title. Then people will say - the first fight was the closest fight to both their primes. True. Frazier won 9-6 in my book. Second fight - Frazier had slipped a little, after the loss to Foreman. However, Ali had also slipped further, and a couple of fights of his loss to Norton. Ali dominated and won 7-5 on my card. Third fight - both were shot, both went life and death, Ali came out the victor - winning 9-4-1 or 9-5 in my book.

The second fight is the one which resembles a prime Ali the most. He was a long way off his prime, but his tactics were more like a 66-7 Ali. He was dancing, throwing combinations, hitting on the move... a much more dominant Ali. Likewise with the 2nd Norton fight. When Ali chose to dance, he ran all over Norton. Frazier and Norton were always going to be more effective vs. a 70s Ali, and to be honest - I think would be dominated against a prime Ali. Fighters like Holmes I see giving Ali more trouble prime.

+= El Jefe=+
02-27-2006, 11:38 PM
i see the ali hating started back on this forum.
dude from all my time here in BS i've only head two guys talk **** about ali and they both left already.
who is hating on ali ??

hellfire508
02-28-2006, 12:35 AM
Yeah actually Butterfly, "hating" on Ali isnt all that common. Just cos someone thinks that Tyson could have landed a punch against Ali doesnt mean they are hating.

Verstyle
02-28-2006, 01:01 AM
What has thinking somebody could beat Muhammad Ali got to do with hating him?

I am almost positive that you and that tommyhearns804 fella are the same guy. You seem more polite, but something aint right here.



oh no oh no. tommyhearns hates tyson to death. he could nt hide that

mayweather
02-28-2006, 01:15 AM
the only resentment i have is, as well as tyson and jones and other great champs, he went on longer than he should have cus he thought he still had somethin left. Agreed, in his prime he was the **** but hes fights later in his career were like clinchfests. They werent classic ali great action fights. It was pointless. He was amazing though.

moondog0
02-28-2006, 11:11 AM
If you have ever coached a sport in your life or had a kid playing sports you want them to play with everything they have every time they play. Ali didn't put any effort into a lot of his later fights and fought many bad fighters that showed him up round after round. Tyson dominated the fights he won and then because of mental illness his career folded at a young age.I'm not saying Tyson would have beaten Ali, but he would have had a chance, especially if he would have fought him on one of Ali's numerous bad nights.

Southpaw Stinger
02-28-2006, 12:04 PM
Ali trained hard and fought well and destroyed seemingly invincible opponents. When he was going to fight a low down fighter, he didn't train properly and didn't take the fight seriously. Ali neve rput 100% in all of his fights.

imike
02-28-2006, 12:30 PM
I totally agreed that Muhammad Ali is the greatest of all times. I also agreed that some people might hate Muhammad Ali for certain reasons. However I must say that Muhammad Ali has achieved a lot and he should be respected. However we cannot force everyone to like Muhammad Ali. As long as when you are fans of Muhammad Ali, just don't care about others people opinions. No doubts Muhammad Ali is the best!!!

Stiv Rex
02-28-2006, 05:34 PM
since when was ali worried about sportsmanship
:p

seriously though i think your confusing hate with not being favorite fighter

I don't hate Ali but he's not my favorite fighter either
yeah, i gotta agree with that, ali was an *******, never concerned about sportmanship, just appearances. he was always trying to be pretty to be popular, sell his fights. he didnt give a **** about anyone, opponents or otherwise, including his wives. he was a better salesman than a boxer.

Dempsey 1919
02-28-2006, 06:24 PM
yeah, i gotta agree with that, ali was an *******, never concerned about sportmanship, just appearances. he was always trying to be pretty to be popular, sell his fights. he didnt give a **** about anyone, opponents or otherwise, including his wives. he was a better salesman than a boxer.

but still he's not gonna talk **** right after he lost, would he? :rolleyes:

hellfire508
02-28-2006, 07:24 PM
I think alot of those who hate Ali are far-right winged nutjobs. They totally oppose and depise his stance on Vietnam, and his being a member of the Nation of Islam, thus cannot take an objective look at his career as a fighter. They will simply put him down, took about all the negatives. Deep down they know he was one of the two greatest heavyweights of all time, but their reputation as a radical right luncatic forces them to oppose one who opposed their glorious Vietnam war.

(Note to those who are right winged - I am too, just not as far right as some of these nutjobs).

Dempsey 1919
02-28-2006, 07:28 PM
I think alot of those who hate Ali are far-right winged nutjobs. They totally oppose and depise his stance on Vietnam, and his being a member of the Nation of Islam, thus cannot take an objective look at his career as a fighter. They will simply put him down, took about all the negatives. Deep down they know he was one of the two greatest heavyweights of all time, but their reputation as a radical right luncatic forces them to oppose one who opposed their glorious Vietnam war.

(Note to those who are right winged - I am too, just not as far right as some of these nutjobs).

yeah, either that or they are joe frazier, floyd patterson, or ernie terrel. :D

Heckler
03-02-2006, 03:08 PM
Frazier would beat him easily in their primes. Ali even said so.

Why do you always bring this up, even though this is contrary to what almost every reputable boxing historian thinks... monte cox: I would favour Ali in a trilogy over the above men. Referring to Frazier, Marciano, Dempsey. Monte Cox is a man that is not slanted and ridiculous like yourself and looks at everything without bias. You hate Ali, and unfortunately you dont have the mental capcity to put this aside when forumlating an opinion on a fight.

Ali said lots of ****? then he went back and contradicted lots of ****. Ive also read interviews where he said he would dominate Frazier in his prime. He 'even said so' after a fight when he was being MODEST as you do after a fight.

Ali's physical gifts would be too much for Frazier, he wouldn't be able pressure Ali to the same extent. The best indication of how this fight would go in their 'primes' was Ali vs Frazier II. Where i think Ali quite clearly won, and Joe was saved from a knockdown in round 2. In FOTC Ali was fighting mere months after his layoff, with only 2 TUNE-UP fights. That was ridiculous and Ali was much to eager to fight. Ali should of taken a whole year minimum to prepare for Frazier and had 4-5 tuneups. It would never be a PUSHOVER, but Ali would win however leave the ring that night battered and bruised.

Heckler
03-02-2006, 03:16 PM
I don't hate Ali, but to this day I'm still trying to figure out why Ali so blatantly ducked Duane Bobick in the spring of '77.

Yogi you are obsessed with Bobick aren't you? Ive never believed that, why would the man that fought Frazier 3 times, Foreman, and later went on to fight HOLMES duck BOBICK OF ALL PEOPLE... i would say it had something to do with management, because it does not make sense at all. I googled Ali ducking bobick, not much come up.. which indicates to me its nothing more then another obscure unproved theory that lingers in the boxing world.

Dempsey 1919
03-02-2006, 03:30 PM
Why do you always bring this up, even though this is contrary to what almost every reputable boxing historian thinks... monte cox: I would favour Ali in a trilogy over the above men. Referring to Frazier, Marciano, Dempsey. Monte Cox is a man that is not slanted and ridiculous like yourself and looks at everything without bias. You hate Ali, and unfortunately you dont have the mental capcity to put this aside when forumlating an opinion on a fight.

Ali said lots of ****? then he went back and contradicted lots of ****. Ive also read interviews where he said he would dominate Frazier in his prime. He 'even said so' after a fight when he was being MODEST as you do after a fight.

Ali's physical gifts would be too much for Frazier, he wouldn't be able pressure Ali to the same extent. The best indication of how this fight would go in their 'primes' was Ali vs Frazier II. Where i think Ali quite clearly won, and Joe was saved from a knockdown in round 2. In FOTC Ali was fighting mere months after his layoff, with only 2 TUNE-UP fights. That was ridiculous and Ali was much to eager to fight. Ali should of taken a whole year minimum to prepare for Frazier and had 4-5 tuneups. It would never be a PUSHOVER, but Ali would win however leave the ring that night battered and bruised.

great post, my man.

Yogi
03-02-2006, 03:56 PM
Yogi you are obsessed with Bobick aren't you? Ive never believed that, why would the man that fought Frazier 3 times, Foreman, and later went on to fight HOLMES duck BOBICK OF ALL PEOPLE... i would say it had something to do with management, because it does not make sense at all. I googled Ali ducking bobick, not much come up.. which indicates to me its nothing more then another obscure unproved theory that lingers in the boxing world.

How old was that post of mine, Heckler...four months or so?

I've already explained that situation to Butterfly in the past and instead of your guesswork, theories, wishful thinking, or whatever else, try reading Teddy Brenner's "Only The Ring Was Square" for your answers to the question on why Ali ducked out of the signed fight with Bobick (who was 38-0 at the time and the talk of the Heavyweight scene...hindsight is different). In that book you'll find the words of the MSG president/matchmaker at the time as I'm sure you know, and seeing as how he was right smack in the middle of that whole Ali/Bobick situation, his own words must be quite valid on the subject.

Books >>>>> Google

Dempsey 1919
04-01-2006, 05:20 PM
How old was that post of mine, Heckler...four months or so?

I've already explained that situation to Butterfly in the past and instead of your guesswork, theories, wishful thinking, or whatever else, try reading Teddy Brenner's "Only The Ring Was Square" for your answers to the question on why Ali ducked out of the signed fight with Bobick (who was 38-0 at the time and the talk of the Heavyweight scene...hindsight is different). In that book you'll find the words of the MSG president/matchmaker at the time as I'm sure you know, and seeing as how he was right smack in the middle of that whole Ali/Bobick situation, his own words must be quite valid on the subject.

Books >>>>> Google

maybe cause ali showed signs of parkinsons, so he wanted to take it easy.

leff
04-01-2006, 07:55 PM
saying who would win between ali and frazier is hard.

frazier prime was about 70 but alis`s was a couple off years earlier

Heckler
04-01-2006, 08:37 PM
I didn't say Frazier would kill Ali. I'm saying Frazier would beat him the majority of the time in prime matchups. It's not out of anger, it's out of skills and styles.



Ali had no class. He would disrespect his black opponents on a regular basis. Badly. He treated them so bad, that some hated him for years. He was a womanizer. He contradicted himself all the time. He didn't even have a clue what he was standing up for. Muslims would just feed him lines like "I ain't got no quarrel with them Viet Cong". He picked up his whole persona from a ****ing wrestler he watched as a kid.



He didn't really struggle. Ali went all out in the first few rounds, trying to put away Frazier early. But Frazier connected with hooks on a regular basis. The only good laters rounds that Ali had were 9 and 14. Frazier gave him the beating of a lifetime.



No, reasoning has nothing to do with it. You're just mad that I pick against Ali. God forbid.


You have no credibility whatsoever as you're judgement is so clearly clouded by your hate of the man. Too much ghosts of manila for you i think. You are the person that once used the Larry Holmes fight to discredit Ali, and posted that ridiculous article 'Ali was not a great fighter' You're a nut and nothing less.

Yogi
04-01-2006, 08:52 PM
You have no credibility whatsoever as you're judgement is so clearly clouded by your hate of the man. Too much ghosts of manila for you i think. You are the person that once used the Larry Holmes fight to discredit Ali, and posted that ridiculous article 'Ali was not a great fighter' You're a nut and nothing less.

Whether he hates him or not, how does his opinion have any less credibilty than those who love & adore Ali, of which we have a few on this forum?

Dempsey 1919
04-01-2006, 09:19 PM
Whether he hates him or not, how does his opinion have any less credibilty than those who love & adore Ali, of which we have a few on this forum?

cause he OD hates on the man. my theory is that he is none other than ernie terrell. :D

Yogi
04-01-2006, 09:29 PM
cause he OD hates on the man. my theory is that he is none other than ernie terrell. :D

If he "OD hates on the man", what the hell do you call that never-ending **** you do on Ali?

Dempsey 1919
04-01-2006, 09:48 PM
If he "OD hates on the man", what the hell do you call that never-ending **** you do on Ali?

what are you talking about? i don't hate on ali. :confused:

Yogi
04-01-2006, 09:55 PM
what are you talking about? i don't hate on ali. :confused:

I never said you did.

But with the amount you talk about him, isn't it fair to say that you OD+++++ LOVE on Ali?

Or would you call it something different?

Either way, I don't think it's fair to accuse somebody of using emotion when judging Ali and then go on to say that his opinion(s) has "no credibilty" just because of that...especially when we have some obviously big Ali fans on here (like you), who could also be accused of having their judgements clouded in emotion but of the opposite variety.

Heckler
04-01-2006, 10:02 PM
Whether he hates him or not, how does his opinion have any less credibilty than those who love & adore Ali, of which we have a few on this forum?

His HATE of Ali, and failure to do anything but focus on his negative points very clearly clouds his judgement. His views are indredibly slanted. Butterfly, im sorry to say... one could say you're the opposite, however nowhere near as extreme as Frazier. And i hope you were not referring to me Yogi, i think Ali is the greatest boxer of all time, but the gap between him and Louis is tiny at most. I think he was far from a perfect boxer, far from unbeatable and far from a perfect person.

Dempsey 1919
04-01-2006, 10:03 PM
I never said you did.

But with the amount you talk about him, isn't it fair to say that you OD+++++ LOVE on Ali?

Or would you call it something different?

Either way, I don't think it's fair to accuse somebody of using emotion when judging Ali and then go on to say that his opinion(s) has "no credibilty" just because of that...especially when we have some obviously big Ali fans on here (like you), who could also be accused of having their judgements clouded in emotion but of the opposite variety.

don't think you're so slick saying that i'm blinded by love. don't i always give legitimate reasons as to why ali would win in matchups? yes, so try again buddy. :D

Yaman
04-01-2006, 10:07 PM
His HATE of Ali, and failure to do anything but focus on his negative points very clearly clouds his judgement. His views are indredibly slanted. Butterfly, im sorry to say... one could say you're the opposite, however nowhere near as extreme as Frazier. And i hope you were not referring to me Yogi, i think Ali is the greatest boxer of all time, but the gap between him and Louis is tiny at most. I think he was far from a perfect boxer, far from unbeatable and far from a perfect person .


Thats what nuthuggers make him out to be and im ****ing sick of it. Thats why i like Fraziers 15th round.

Yogi
04-01-2006, 10:10 PM
don't think you're so slick saying that i'm blinded by love.

Don't be so easy on yourself saying that you're only "blinded by love", as I'd personally say that you're blinded by a hefty amount of stupidity or retardation, as well.

Dempsey 1919
04-01-2006, 10:11 PM
Thats what nuthuggers make him out to be and im ****ing sick of it. Thats why i like Fraziers 15th round.

why don't you stop covering up and just say my name instead, cause i know that's what you were thinking about? :D

i don't think he was a perfect boxer, unbeatable, or the perfect person, but he was a great boxer, extremely hard to beat, and a very good person at heart, you can't deny that.

Dempsey 1919
04-01-2006, 10:12 PM
Don't be so easy on yourself saying that you're only "blinded by love", as I'd personally say that you're blinded by a hefty amount of stupidity or retardation, as well.

wooooo, a little cranky today aren't you yogi? :D

Piggu
04-01-2006, 10:14 PM
I hate on him cause I'm jealous. :(

Dempsey 1919
04-01-2006, 10:16 PM
I hate on him cause I'm jealous. :(

well, alot of people are. don't feel bad, you're not the only one. :D

Yogi
04-01-2006, 10:35 PM
Butterfly, im sorry to say... one could say you're the opposite, however nowhere near as extreme as Frazier.

Nowhere near as extreme as Frazier?

That's a ****ing load of ****!

Frazier signed up in Oct of 2005 and has posted a total of 166 (or so) times on here.

Butterfly signed up during the same month and has posted over 5,000 times on here, with MANY of those 5,000+ posts praising Ali to no end.

Dempsey 1919
04-01-2006, 10:39 PM
Nowhere near as extreme as Frazier?

That's a ****ing load of ****!

Frazier signed up in Oct of 2005 and has posted a total of 166 (or so) times on here.

Butterfly signed up during the same month and has posted over 5,000 times on here, with MANY of those 5,000+ posts praising Ali to no end.

he's talking about the content, not the quantity. :rolleyes:

and a small percentage of my posts give praise to ali in any way, shape or form. i thought you'd be smart enough to realize that.

Piggu
04-01-2006, 10:52 PM
well, alot of people are. don't feel bad, you're not the only one. :D
I wish I was as good as Ali.

I would turn Pro right now.

Or in a couple of years. :)

Yogi
04-01-2006, 10:59 PM
he's talking about the content, not the quantity. :rolleyes:

and a small percentage of my posts give praise to ali in any way, shape or form. i thought you'd be smart enough to realize that.

In regards to the contents, so was I...As I was with the quantity, which I'm plenty smart enough to know that you gone overboard in praising Ali much, MUCH more often than Frazier speaks of him in a negative way.

Da Iceman
04-01-2006, 11:05 PM
i don't get it? this is baffling. he is the greatest of all times, but some people hate on his so much, it's crazy! i mean they have people like louis beating ali. louis always had trouble with fast guys, like billy conn. well, who was a better fast, moving hw then ali? they said louis would counter ali all day? do you know how close he has to get to his opponents to throw flurries? ali would not allow himself to be that close. his footwork is better, so he wouldn't be cornered. theres no way ali is getting beat. ali is extremely strong! he basically manhandled liston in their first fight, and muscled "big" george foreman in '74. and he embarrased both of them! yet he is not that good and foreman could destroy him. bull! that's like saying frazier would destroy foreman when foreman destroyed him twice! and they say marciano would destroy ali, LOL!! ali would annihilate marciano in a matter of a few rounds. marciano would punish his body, worst statement ever made! marciano has a 67" reach, and ali never lets anybody get close to him in his prime, so marciano's short hands will punish ali's body. on top of that foreman couldn't hurt ali's midsection, so how would marciano? some people say marciano is the hardest hitter ever. well, he looked good fighting people with glass chins and small, bums like himself. the way i see it, the only people that think rocky could beat ali, are WHITE. and some of them are really, really racist. i mean one thread asked who would win, marciano or jake lamotta, and i swear, this guy had to be a white racist, cause he answered, "nobody beats the rock, but lamotta would do much better against marciano than that moolie clay would." well, i don't know what a moolie is, but i bet that translate into *****!
and so lamotta, a slow-footed middleweight could beat ali? and he called him clay, which proves he's white and racist, and wants to keep ali as with a white, slave name! there is no way rocky beats any top ten hw, let alone the #1 hw. frazier can't beat ali, cause he, for the most part didn't. i guarantee you all ali had to do was fight more fights and get more experience before fighting frazier, and he would have beat him. he only had two fights prior, and one was only three rounds. a prime ali would have done much better, so there is no contest. there is no real, legitimate reason why any fighter period would beat ali, because ali had great speed, great chin, and a pretty good punch, and enormous strength!

i have come to the conclusion that ali beat their favorite fighters so their mad at ali, or they are white, and need someone like marciano or dempsey to be their savior, or they are war veterans, or related to veterans, or related to veterans who died in combat, so they are mad ali didn't go to vietnam, or they didn't like ali's showmanship. do you realize that no hw copied his style yet, because it is so hard! or maybe they want their favorite fighters to be the greatest, so they are mad that their not. also he is 15-3 against hall of fame heavyweight fighters. he has the best resume ever, i just don't understand how people can hate on him so much? what has he ever done to ya'll?

http://www.nndb.com/people/487/000022421/1048606238.jpg
your hugging his nuts a lil too tight there catipillar.

Heckler
04-01-2006, 11:29 PM
Thats what nuthuggers make him out to be and im ****ing sick of it. Thats why i like Fraziers 15th round.

Why? When Frazier (poster) is just as if not more extreme.

Heckler
04-01-2006, 11:42 PM
Nowhere near as extreme as Frazier?

That's a ****ing load of ****!

Frazier signed up in Oct of 2005 and has posted a total of 166 (or so) times on here.

Butterfly signed up during the same month and has posted over 5,000 times on here, with MANY of those 5,000+ posts praising Ali to no end.

Im not referring to the quantity... but the actual view held. And i dont believe Butterfly has ever come out with anything as ridiculous as 'Ali was a bum' or 'ali was not a great fighter' or using the Larry Holmes fight against Ali. I will acknowledge that Butteflys berating of Marciano and Louis is over-the-top.

SuzieQ49
04-01-2006, 11:53 PM
I will acknowledge that Butteflys berating of Marciano and Louis is over-the-top.

ya think???

Dempsey 1919
04-02-2006, 12:10 AM
ya think???

marciano and louis are overrated, especially marciano.

Frazier's 15th round
04-02-2006, 07:11 AM
Ah, I see Ali's biggest fans Heckler and Butterfly are being irritating again. Remember guys, prime vs prime, every other boxer in history KO's Ali in the first round. :D

By the way, thanks for defending me, Yogi and Yaman.

chosen_one
04-02-2006, 08:20 AM
ali is the greatest boxer ever imo i love ali and all ali nut huggers should be respected

chosen_one
04-02-2006, 08:42 AM
if i was a admin of this forum if u didnt put ali number one i would ban you

mokele
04-02-2006, 12:25 PM
Ali was a colorful, complicated personality. He was almost always a loudmouth but that wasn't always a bad thing. Outside the ring he could be funny, astute, arrogant, innocent, and many other things all at once. It's no wonder Sonny Liston felt overmatched in terms of charisma. My sense is that Sonny was psychologically close to beaten before he ever stepped into the ring with (then) Cassius Clay. Liston was used to fighting scared or intimidated opponents, not ones who laughed at him and made fun of him!

I followed Ali's whole career starting from his 1st fight with Liston. I was only a boy at the time, but I saw that fight in black and white on television. I probably saw close to 20 of his fights when they happened, and now another 10 or so over the internet or on shows such as ESPN classic sports.

Inside the ring, Ali was also not always predictable. He was a great pure athlete with great speed, balance and coordination, but he had serious flaws in his boxing style that were only very rarely exposed until he had grown older and slowed down. For example, I felt that Ali lost both his 3rd fight to Norton and his fight with Jimmy Young, but Ali had created a mystique about himself and had so much charisma that he had all the judges seeing his fights in Ali's terms. I remember listening to 1 of the commentators for the 3rd Ali-Norton fight, (perhaps it was Ferdie Pacheco?), talk about how Norton was doomed to lose the last round of the fight just because Ali was dancing round the ring. It was as if Ali didn't have to land anything, just look like his legs were ok. To me that was obvious bias. Today I believe that Norton would be judged to have easily won that last round and that fight if you remove the mystique that Ali had in those days. Similarly, Jimmy Young went nearly untouched by Ali in their fight. In order to beat Ali you had to totally dominate him. It wasn't enough to substantially outland him (Jimmy Young) or push him back repeatedly to the ropes and land plenty of big punches (Norton).

Ali often clinched on the inside and in particular liked to hold behind the head. I prefer inside fighters and so didn't like that part of his style. He didn't always clinch though, and could cover up inside and wait for a chance to fire back. He got better at inside fighting and standing flat-footed as he got older. How much running around the ring and clinching he did depended on his opponent and how he felt at the time. He didn't hold much at all against Karl Mildenburger for example, but held repeatedly 1 year later against Ernie Terrell, even late in the fight when it was obvious that Terrell was a beaten man, way behind on points, and pretty much out of gas. Ali could stand flat-footed and outpunch Jerry Quarry, not at all easy to do.

You could write a 10-page article on just how and when Ali clinched on the inside. Arthur Mercante was so awed by Ali's mystique that after warning Ali a couple times for holding Norton behind the head in their 3rd fight, he just allowed Ali to do it and quit warning him again. A modern referee would not have allowed a fighter to set his own rules in the ring. Such was the power of Ali's mystique. Howard Cosell was also awed by Ali. In his fight with Terrell, Cosell kept making comments about Terrell's "octopus" tactics. The simple truth is that Ernie was slow on his feet and when he tried to fight Ali on the inside against the ropes, Ali kept tying Terrell up. Ali was far more of an octopus that night than Terrell!

Anyway I don't hate Muhammad Ali. On the contrary I view him as an all-time great but as a fighter with flaws. Was he "the greatest" as he said after the 1st Liston fight? I don't believe so. He didn't have a big enough punch, rarely if ever went to the body, did too much holding behind the head and clinching to be regarded as "the greatest". He was just very, very good, somewhere in the top 10 heavyweights of all time.

Da Iceman
04-02-2006, 12:32 PM
Ah, I see Ali's biggest fans Heckler and Butterfly are being irritating again. Remember guys, prime vs prime, every other boxer in history KO's Ali in the first round. :D

By the way, thanks for defending me, Yogi and Yaman.
yes they do including eagle kyowa

eazy_mas
04-02-2006, 12:35 PM
i don't get it? this is baffling. he is the greatest of all times, but some people hate on his so much, it's crazy! i mean they have people like louis beating ali. louis always had trouble with fast guys, like billy conn. well, who was a better fast, moving hw then ali? they said louis would counter ali all day? do you know how close he has to get to his opponents to throw flurries? ali would not allow himself to be that close. his footwork is better, so he wouldn't be cornered. theres no way ali is getting beat. ali is extremely strong! he basically manhandled liston in their first fight, and muscled "big" george foreman in '74. and he embarrased both of them! yet he is not that good and foreman could destroy him. bull! that's like saying frazier would destroy foreman when foreman destroyed him twice! and they say marciano would destroy ali, LOL!! ali would annihilate marciano in a matter of a few rounds. marciano would punish his body, worst statement ever made! marciano has a 67" reach, and ali never lets anybody get close to him in his prime, so marciano's short hands will punish ali's body. on top of that foreman couldn't hurt ali's midsection, so how would marciano? some people say marciano is the hardest hitter ever. well, he looked good fighting people with glass chins and small, bums like himself. the way i see it, the only people that think rocky could beat ali, are WHITE. and some of them are really, really racist. i mean one thread asked who would win, marciano or jake lamotta, and i swear, this guy had to be a white racist, cause he answered, "nobody beats the rock, but lamotta would do much better against marciano than that moolie clay would." well, i don't know what a moolie is, but i bet that translate into *****!
and so lamotta, a slow-footed middleweight could beat ali? and he called him clay, which proves he's white and racist, and wants to keep ali as with a white, slave name! there is no way rocky beats any top ten hw, let alone the #1 hw. frazier can't beat ali, cause he, for the most part didn't. i guarantee you all ali had to do was fight more fights and get more experience before fighting frazier, and he would have beat him. he only had two fights prior, and one was only three rounds. a prime ali would have done much better, so there is no contest. there is no real, legitimate reason why any fighter period would beat ali, because ali had great speed, great chin, and a pretty good punch, and enormous strength!

i have come to the conclusion that ali beat their favorite fighters so their mad at ali, or they are white, and need someone like marciano or dempsey to be their savior, or they are war veterans, or related to veterans, or related to veterans who died in combat, so they are mad ali didn't go to vietnam, or they didn't like ali's showmanship. do you realize that no hw copied his style yet, because it is so hard! or maybe they want their favorite fighters to be the greatest, so they are mad that their not. also he is 15-3 against hall of fame heavyweight fighters. he has the best resume ever, i just don't understand how people can hate on him so much? what has he ever done to ya'll?

http://www.nndb.com/people/487/000022421/1048606238.jpg

The more sucess you have the more haters you have.

There are many thread talking **** about Mayweather too because he is 1 P4P boxer.

Da Iceman
04-02-2006, 01:24 PM
Ah, I see Ali's biggest fans Heckler and Butterfly are being irritating again. Remember guys, prime vs prime, every other boxer in history KO's Ali in the first round. :D

By the way, thanks for defending me, Yogi and Yaman.
i think your an alt.

RockyMarcianofan00
04-02-2006, 03:55 PM
Why do so many people hate ali?
hm i know many reasons. I personally don't hate the guy completely, he was brilliant in the ring at times, alot of its what he did out of the ring. Well here's some good examples, The guy was loud and flashy, ****y sometimes arrogant, some people like that some don't. The guy called himself the greatest, how much more ****y can you get. Here's an example, I saw the trailer for the super fight (don't turn this into Marciano v Ali PLEASE) and they were asking them what they thought of each other, and Marciano said "Well i never knocked opponent before a fight and well i'm not gunna start now, Ali is good and it should be an interesting fight"
Ali said "Marciano's a good fighter but he's slow and swarms at times, now there's now human being alive that can catch me with slow arms etc"---something along the lines of that.
so he was ****y for one

two, guy from what i understand cheated on his wife.
three and most hated for- he refused induction into the army. Now i know vietnam was a controversial war etc. I don't really care that much, but the point is he wasn't fighting the vietkong he would have gone over and done exhibition bouts to raise morale in the troops. Many people believed he changed his religion to not have to participate in the war. now look at what he changed it too, Islam (if i'm correct), that was a very hated religion.

whether he did or he didn't not go into the army because of his religion it doesn't matter really. In a sense you could say it helped him, because i do firmly believe that the way he was in 1967, he wouldn't have been able to beat, George Foreman,Earnie Shavers,Maybe even Joe Frazier. so in a way it helped him in a way it didn't.

I remember hearing in 1960 something he was rated the most hated fighter but in the 70's he was loved so, whatever the reason he was brilliant in the ring, personally i wouldn't say the greatest but top10 at the very least

Da Iceman
04-02-2006, 04:17 PM
i dont like him because joe frazier gave him money, then as soon as he got out the car he started bashing him calling him a gorilla and he made fun of joe frazier like no other opponent b4. joe was talking about how great a fighter ali was then he turned on the radio ali was making fun of him.

Da Iceman
04-02-2006, 04:17 PM
he thought they were friends and he antagonized him.

RockyMarcianofan00
04-02-2006, 04:20 PM
ya know what got me? not to hate him but i just thought it was wierd like how he went to joe fraziers training hq because in a street fight Joe frazier would rip ali apart

Just wierd

Kid Achilles
04-02-2006, 05:43 PM
Ali just figured Joe would never really lay a hand on him. Obviously Frazier kills Ali on the street.

Heckler
04-02-2006, 05:50 PM
Ali just figured Joe would never really lay a hand on him. Obviously Frazier kills Ali on the street.

I disagree. People would assume Frazier kills Ali on the street because of stereotypes. Ali the 'dancing fairy' and frazier the tough slugger. Both are going to stand and trade as hard as they can, Ali with greater reach, speed and with bareknuckles. I don't think theres any basis to say that 'Frazier would obviously kill ali'. Ali can throw hard, fast flurries in the ring. And he did it to save his arse against Lyle, he did it against Frazier in the 9th round of FOTC. IF he did that with bareknuckles he would inflict huge damage. Not only is Ali faster, he is obviously the physically stronger of the two. So again what is the basis apart from ridiculous stereotypes? I dont expect a reasonable answer from marciano who believes Lee would beat Ali in a ring let alone the street.

Yaman
04-02-2006, 05:53 PM
I disagree. People would assume Frazier kills Ali on the street because of stereotypes. Ali the 'dancing fairy' and frazier the tough slugger. Both are going to stand and trade as hard as they can, Ali with greater reach, speed and with bareknuckles. I don't think theres any basis to say that 'Frazier would obviously kill ali'. Ali can throw hard, fast flurries in the ring. And he did it to save his arse against Lyle, he did it against Frazier in the 9th round of FOTC. IF he did that with bareknuckles he would inflict huge damage. Not only is Ali faster, he is obviously the physically stronger of the two. So again what is the basis apart from ridiculous stereotypes? I dont expect a reasonable answer from marciano who believes Lee would beat Ali in a ring let alone the street.

Frazier would kill Ali on the streets. Period.

Heckler
04-02-2006, 05:58 PM
Why do so many people hate ali?
hm i know many reasons. I personally don't hate the guy completely, he was brilliant in the ring at times, alot of its what he did out of the ring. Well here's some good examples, The guy was loud and flashy, ****y sometimes arrogant, some people like that some don't. The guy called himself the greatest, how much more ****y can you get. Here's an example, I saw the trailer for the super fight (don't turn this into Marciano v Ali PLEASE) and they were asking them what they thought of each other, and Marciano said "Well i never knocked opponent before a fight and well i'm not gunna start now, Ali is good and it should be an interesting fight"
Ali said "Marciano's a good fighter but he's slow and swarms at times, now there's now human being alive that can catch me with slow arms etc"---something along the lines of that.
so he was ****y for one

two, guy from what i understand cheated on his wife.
three and most hated for- he refused induction into the army. Now i know vietnam was a controversial war etc. I don't really care that much, but the point is he wasn't fighting the vietkong he would have gone over and done exhibition bouts to raise morale in the troops. Many people believed he changed his religion to not have to participate in the war. now look at what he changed it too, Islam (if i'm correct), that was a very hated religion.

whether he did or he didn't not go into the army because of his religion it doesn't matter really. In a sense you could say it helped him, because i do firmly believe that the way he was in 1967, he wouldn't have been able to beat, George Foreman,Earnie Shavers,Maybe even Joe Frazier. so in a way it helped him in a way it didn't.

I remember hearing in 1960 something he was rated the most hated fighter but in the 70's he was loved so, whatever the reason he was brilliant in the ring, personally i wouldn't say the greatest but top10 at the very least


You 'Firmly' think a 67 Ali wouldn't beat even Shavers? my lord, i think you need to do a bit more watching and analyzing because you obviously haven't done enough. You do realise Ali was a muslim some time before Vietnam became a major issue right? and by going to Vietnam it would show that he SUPPORTED it which he didn't?

RockyMarcianofan00
04-02-2006, 05:58 PM
I disagree. People would assume Frazier kills Ali on the street because of stereotypes. Ali the 'dancing fairy' and frazier the tough slugger. Both are going to stand and trade as hard as they can, Ali with greater reach, speed and with bareknuckles. I don't think theres any basis to say that 'Frazier would obviously kill ali'. Ali can throw hard, fast flurries in the ring. And he did it to save his arse against Lyle, he did it against Frazier in the 9th round of FOTC. IF he did that with bareknuckles he would inflict huge damage. Not only is Ali faster, he is obviously the physically stronger of the two. So again what is the basis apart from ridiculous stereotypes? I dont expect a reasonable answer from marciano who believes Lee would beat Ali in a ring let alone the street.
wtf
ok they stand there and trade blows and Frazier with the greater strength destroys ali on the streets as he would a few weeks later in the ring (though i'm not sure you'd say he destroyed him in the ring)

RockyMarcianofan00
04-02-2006, 06:00 PM
You 'Firmly' think a 67 Ali wouldn't beat even Shavers? my lord, i think you need to do a bit more watching and analyzing because you obviously haven't done enough. You do realise Ali was a muslim some time before Vietnam became a major issue right? and by going to Vietnam it would show that he SUPPORTED it which he didn't?
not so much shavers more Foreman

Vietnam was big conflict since had started ppl were prtesting it

and i'm not talking supporting the war
see there's a difference between supporting the war and supporting the troops

Supporting the war is saying we're over there for a good reason

supporting the troops would be going over there and fighting exhibition matches to make the troops (most who don't want to be there either) forget the war for a moment and enjoy things they would at home

Heckler
04-02-2006, 06:02 PM
Frazier doesn't have greater strength did he? And if you believe he had greater physical strength it confirms my suspiscions of you being another very slanted viewer of boxing. Ali is going to throw faster and thus land before Frazier does, with bare knuckles. Unlike in the ring Ali doesn't hold back, he lands first and hard. Frazier stumbles back and Ali lands flurries to his head... the streetfight finishes <--- can you argue logically against this?

Heckler
04-02-2006, 06:04 PM
not so much shavers more Foreman

Vietnam was big conflict since had started ppl were prtesting it

and i'm not talking supporting the war
see there's a difference between supporting the war and supporting the troops

Supporting the war is saying we're over there for a good reason

supporting the troops would be going over there and fighting exhibition matches to make the troops (most who don't want to be there either) forget the war for a moment and enjoy things they would at home

I dont think you quite understand the politics of the day, if Ali went to Vietnam he would be accused of backtracking on his views. It would imply support.

RockyMarcianofan00
04-02-2006, 06:05 PM
Frazier doesn't have greater strength did he? And if you believe he had greater physical strength it confirms my suspiscions of you being another very slanted viewer of boxing. Ali is going to throw faster and thus land before Frazier does, with bare knuckles. Unlike in the ring Ali doesn't hold back, he lands first and hard. Frazier stumbles back and Ali lands flurries to his head... the streetfight finishes <--- can you argue logically against this?
wow my words suck today
sorry for using the wrong word
i'm not sure who's physically stronger but its obvious you think ali so i'll go with it

and

i didn't mean physical strength as much as punching power and i do know the difference, bare knuckled or not its quite obvious who would win in a street fight, the boxer or the boxer/brawler

Frazier's Hardest punch bareknuckled > Ali's hardest punch bareknuckled

how can you argue that?

Heckler
04-02-2006, 06:06 PM
Frazier would kill Ali on the streets. Period.

I have no problems with this view at all, unless its because you buy into 'tough guy' stereotypes. Boxing translates into streetfighting ability very well and saying Frazier would 'kill' ali is ridiculous.

RockyMarcianofan00
04-02-2006, 06:07 PM
I dont think you quite understand the politics of the day, if Ali went to Vietnam he would be accused of backtracking on his views. It would imply support.

well i'm just saying that they never make celberties fight as much
they would have done with ali what they did with Joe Louis Jack Dempsey etc

Heckler
04-02-2006, 06:08 PM
wow my words suck today
sorry for using the wrong word
i'm not sure who's physically stronger but its obvious you think ali so i'll go with it

and

i didn't mean physical strength as much as punching power and i do know the difference, bare knuckled or not its quite obvious who would win in a street fight, the boxer or the boxer/brawler

Frazier's Hardest punch bareknuckled > Ali's hardest punch bareknuckled

how can you argue that?

I can't argue with that at all, but i can argue the fact that Ali with his greater reach can control the range and with greater handspeed can hit Joe a couple of times before Joe lands a left hook. And i can argue that an Ali flurry=Frazier left hook.

RockyMarcianofan00
04-02-2006, 06:10 PM
Joe Frazier was good at getting inside so it'd be good and i'm not sure one of his flurries = frazier's left hook but it could

Heckler
04-02-2006, 06:10 PM
Im not saying Ali would beat Frazier in a streetfight. Im merely pointing out how people hold these views because of stereotypes, not because of logical reasoning. And who cares, 'fight in the ring like a man, not in the streets like an animal'

RockyMarcianofan00
04-02-2006, 06:16 PM
Im not saying Ali would beat Frazier in a streetfight. Im merely pointing out how people hold these views because of stereotypes, not because of logical reasoning. And who cares, 'fight in the ring like a man, not in the streets like an animal'
i'd just like to point out that Ali's the one that went there yelling stuff trying to prevoke a fight

thats why i said i don't understand what he was thinking because Joe Frazier would kill him in the stredts

Heckler
04-02-2006, 06:22 PM
thats why i said i don't understand what he was thinking because Joe Frazier would kill him in the stredts

Yes and that was obviously a result of stereotyping not logical reasoning. They are both 200+ pound men throwing bombs with bareknuckles, the first one to land a semi decent punch is probably going to win... EITHER could win that fight.

Frazier's 15th round
04-02-2006, 06:31 PM
Frazier doesn't have greater strength did he? And if you believe he had greater physical strength it confirms my suspiscions of you being another very slanted viewer of boxing. Ali is going to throw faster and thus land before Frazier does, with bare knuckles. Unlike in the ring Ali doesn't hold back, he lands first and hard. Frazier stumbles back and Ali lands flurries to his head... the streetfight finishes <--- can you argue logically against this?

Are you seriously trying to argue that Ali would beat Frazier in a street fight? Ali himself admitted that he wouldn't fare well in a street fight, against anybody. Any brawler like Tyson, Liston, Frazier, etc would have killed him. Remember, this is a street fight, so Frazier would be throwing elbows and headbutts. Ali would get destroyed.

RockyMarcianofan00
04-02-2006, 06:41 PM
Are you seriously trying to argue that Ali would beat Frazier in a street fight? Ali himself admitted that he wouldn't fare well in a street fight, against anybody. Any brawler like Tyson, Liston, Frazier, etc would have killed him. Remember, this is a street fight, so Frazier would be throwing elbows and headbutts. Ali would get destroyed.
i agree

Ali didn't have many knock outs many were decisions and TKO's and those don't exist on the street

Heckler
04-02-2006, 06:56 PM
Are you seriously trying to argue that Ali would beat Frazier in a street fight? Ali himself admitted that he wouldn't fare well in a street fight, against anybody. Any brawler like Tyson, Liston, Frazier, etc would have killed him. Remember, this is a street fight, so Frazier would be throwing elbows and headbutts. Ali would get destroyed.

I haven't heard Ali ever say this. And you haven't logically explained your viewpoint. Elbows and headbutts? And? Ali could do the same could he not? And you think Joe frazier is going to go for an elbow before he would throw a left hook? That he would get on the inside to throw a HEADBUTT without getting collected? Frazier looks TOUGHER and i think you will find thats the reason for most giving Frazier the edge in a streetfight.

Heckler
04-02-2006, 06:57 PM
i agree

Ali didn't have many knock outs many were decisions and TKO's and those don't exist on the street

How often did Ali throw as hard as he could? with bareknuckles?

Yaman
04-02-2006, 07:01 PM
How often did Ali throw as hard as he could? with bareknuckles?


Can you even imagine Frazier with his bare knuckles punching Ali with his hardest left hook? Ali is not a power puncher.

Frazier's 15th round
04-02-2006, 07:02 PM
It took Ali about a million punches to hurt Frazier anyway. He couldn't run forever. Frazier would crush his skull with a left hook.

RockyMarcianofan00
04-02-2006, 07:03 PM
Can you even imagine Frazier with his bare knuckles punching Ali with his hardest left hook? Ali is not a power puncher.
exactly
you say how often does Ali throw as hard as he can with bareknuckles
well how often does joe frazier do it

Heckler
04-02-2006, 07:08 PM
Yes Frazier would seriously hurt Ali with a strong left hook, i acknowledge this, but Ali would also hurt Frazier with a hard bare-knuckled 1-2. Im not saying Ali would win in a streetfight, i was merely pointing out how people on this thread were not thinking about this and merely buying into stereotypes. Could you imagine a fast, whipping, straight right from Ali with bareknuckles (and huge hands)? They are both big men and whoever lands the first decent punch wins. Their both likely to break their hands also.

Heckler
04-02-2006, 07:11 PM
It took Ali about a million punches to hurt Frazier anyway. He couldn't run forever. Frazier would crush his skull with a left hook.

Really because a hard flurry in round 2 of the rematch would of dropped Frazier without the uneccessary referee intervention. Frazier was clearly wobbled in ALL THREE fights by Ali. We aren't talking boxing, we are talking bareknuckle punching which is a different ballgame.

smasher
04-02-2006, 07:13 PM
Can you even imagine Frazier with his bare knuckles punching Ali with his hardest left hook? Ali is not a power puncher.
We're talking a street fight here, not one of your grade 8 recess shoving and slapping contests, and fights with your kid sister don't count Vanilla ******.

In a street fight, the fighter that gets off first and cleanly has a decided upperhand, as the other guy will be momentarily stunned, often long enough to be taken down where punching power now becomes irrelevant as balance and leverage are negated. A fast 3 punch barefist combo by a heavyweight champion fighter is going to at the very least stun the other guy if not outright hurt him.

Once the fight is on the ground it's anyone's fight if neither guy has grappling experience and both guys are close in size and strength.

Da Iceman
04-02-2006, 07:19 PM
Are you seriously trying to argue that Ali would beat Frazier in a street fight? Ali himself admitted that he wouldn't fare well in a street fight, against anybody. Any brawler like Tyson, Liston, Frazier, etc would have killed him. Remember, this is a street fight, so Frazier would be throwing elbows and headbutts. Ali would get destroyed.
i gotta agree, ali had the speed but frazier had a punch. and look where they grew up ali in the burbs frazier in the ghetto and country. frazier must have way more streetfighting experience then ali.

if it gets to the ground frazier has the reach advantage because he has shorter arms.

Yaman
04-02-2006, 07:20 PM
We're talking a street fight here, not one of your grade 8 recess shoving and slapping contests, and fights with your kid sister don't count Vanilla ******.

In a street fight, the fighter that gets off first and cleanly has a decided upperhand, as the other guy will be momentarily stunned, often long enough to be taken down where punching power now becomes irrelevant as balance and leverage are negated. A fast 3 punch barefist combo by a heavyweight champion fighter is going to at the very least stun the other guy if not outright hurt him.

Once the fight is on the ground it's anyone's fight if neither guy has grappling experience and both guys are close in size and strength.

You're talking about some homosexual fight there. You really think they would be rolling around on the floor and **** LMAO! This is not the same as you slapping little children on the face with your dick, this is a streetfight where both guys can punch and Frazier is the harder puncher. Go cry now *****.

Heckler
04-02-2006, 07:59 PM
i gotta agree, ali had the speed but frazier had a punch. and look where they grew up ali in the burbs frazier in the ghetto and country. frazier must have way more streetfighting experience then ali.

if it gets to the ground frazier has the reach advantage because he has shorter arms.

Growing up in the ghetto and having streetfighting experience will turn you into a wild swinging brawler. Joe Frazier having wild brawls in philly before he was taught correct technique isn't really going to factor into this much... professional boxing experience offsets this completely. Boxing translates into streetfighting ability very well, professional boxers will hand streetfighting thugs their arses giftwrapped. Straight, fast, accurate punches thrown by professional boxers are better then most the **** 'streetfighters' try to pull off.

Da Iceman
04-02-2006, 08:01 PM
ali even said he couldnt street fight. so he lost the battle right then.

Heckler
04-02-2006, 08:09 PM
Ali didn't streetfight, doesn't mean he couldn't and ive never come across him saying that he couldn't. If he can box he can streetfight, simple. He dedicated his life to throwing punches, and showed throughout his career he could pull out fast, hard flurries when it was required. Its ridiculous to suggest he couldn't adapt his abilities to the street without sucess. He has reach, speed, accuracy and great comprehension of range.

RockyMarcianofan00
04-02-2006, 08:20 PM
one of Ali's friends was just saying that actually on espn classic one time

that there's no way Ali could have won in a street fight

Frazier's brawler style would beat him, everybody knows you don't "box" in a street fight

Heckler
04-02-2006, 08:30 PM
one of Ali's friends was just saying that actually on espn classic one time

that there's no way Ali could have won in a street fight

Frazier's brawler style would beat him, everybody knows you don't "box" in a street fight

You're being simplistic.You don't BOX in a streetfight but you can apply concepts from boxing. Using range, reach and handspeed. Brawler style would beat him? because brawling and wild swinging is what works best in the street because thats what you saw in movies right? Ali wouldn't box, he'd throw those flurries that he threw in the ring when he was trying to get out of a bad situation or put an opponent away.

So because a friend of Ali said this, you believe it? he probably bought into ridiculous stereotypes also. Put these perceptions aside and think LOGICALLY ABOUT IT.

Reminds me of UFC. Tank Abbott who was nothing more then a brawler was thought to be impossible to strike against. Until a less powerful, faster, straight punching young man by the name of Vitor Belfort was able to beat him to the punch and put him away.

blockhead
04-02-2006, 08:39 PM
why dont you guys go revive that ali vs. bruce lee thread because the arguments in there are about as stupid and irrelivant as the ones in here. why polute boxingscene with more of this garbage.

Heckler
04-02-2006, 09:17 PM
Fair enough ^ we are getting just a little OT here. Back to the topic then. I understand why people hate muhammad ali, because some people believe him to be perfect. As a boxer he was flawed, as a person he was flawed - Muhammad Ali acknowledges this himself. I personally think Muhammad Ali was a great man, but nowhere near perfect and what he did to Joe Frazier was ****ed up... no denying it.

smasher
04-02-2006, 09:27 PM
You really think they would be rolling around on the floor and **** LMAO!
Yet another lame attempt to sound tough from Yaman the retarded Fubu wearing wannabe Vanilla ******.

Ali and Frazier did just that on Wide World of Sports prior to their second fight when Frazier objected to Ali calling him ignorant. Frazier was literally standing over Ali ready to go and Ali while still seated in his chair was able to grab Frazier and wrestle him to the floor. Frazier couldn't break free and he got no punches off.

Of course I wouldn't expect a white ***** wimp 13 year old to know anything about a streetfight. All of your opinions are based around glowing praise of black men that look fearsome and intimidating to a pencil neck white kid from the suburbs, the kind of black men you wish you were.

Now go to your room and ***** slap your Justin Timberlake doll and pretend you're Sonny Liston.

blockhead
04-02-2006, 09:30 PM
ali is the greatest boxer ever imo i love ali and all ali nut huggers should be respected
why dont you and buttfly get together and circle jerk you ****ing fruitcake.

Heckler
04-02-2006, 10:05 PM
Yet another lame attempt to sound tough from Yaman the retarded Fubu wearing wannabe Vanilla ******.

Ali and Frazier did just that on Wide World of Sports prior to their second fight when Frazier objected to Ali calling him ignorant. Frazier was literally standing over Ali ready to go and Ali while still seated in his chair was able to grab Frazier and wrestle him to the floor. Frazier couldn't break free and he got no punches off.

Of course I wouldn't expect a white ***** wimp 13 year old to know anything about a streetfight. All of your opinions are based around glowing praise of black men that look fearsome and intimidating to a pencil neck white kid from the suburbs, the kind of black men you wish you were.

Now go to your room and ***** slap your Justin Timberlake doll and pretend you're Sonny Liston.


Yeah they both got fined for that. And i wasn't suprised Ali was able to do that, he was definately the PHYSICALLY stronger man... Frazier easily the harder puncher, people get confused between the two.

Dempsey 1919
04-02-2006, 11:58 PM
why dont you and buttfly get together and circle jerk you ****ing fruitcake.

starting **** again, i see? :rolleyes:

tsk, tsk, tsk. some people never learn. :D

Frazier's 15th round
04-03-2006, 01:00 AM
Frazier was literally standing over Ali ready to go and Ali while still seated in his chair was able to grab Frazier and wrestle him to the floor. Frazier couldn't break free and he got no punches off.

Um, that's not true, asswipe. Frazier wasn't even looking at Ali, he was talking to Ali's brother. Ali thought Frazier was going to hit his brother, so he jumped up and tried to tackle Frazier onto the floor. But Frazier actually ended up on top of Ali. Frazier couldn't get a punch off because there were about 10 guys around crowding the area.

Dempsey 1919
04-03-2006, 01:03 AM
Um, that's not true, asswipe. Frazier wasn't even looking at Ali, he was talking to Ali's brother. Ali thought Frazier was going to hit his brother, so he jumped up and tried to tackle Frazier onto the floor. But Frazier actually ended up on top of Ali. Frazier couldn't get a punch off because there were about 10 guys around crowding the area.

so? if frazier was stronger than ali it wouldn't have mattered. ali outmuscled frazier there, admit it, fool. :D

smasher
04-03-2006, 01:06 AM
Um, that's not true, asswipe. Frazier wasn't even looking at Ali, he was talking to Ali's brother. Ali thought Frazier was going to hit his brother, so he jumped up and tried to tackle Frazier onto the floor. But Frazier actually ended up on top of Ali. Frazier couldn't get a punch off because there were about 10 guys around crowding the area.
What's not true **** face?

1) Frazier was standing over Ali

2) Ali was seated in his chair

3) Ali was able to grab Frazier and wrestle him to the floor

4) Frazier couldn't get any punches off

Read my ****in post next time *******, or just go back to your mindless Ali gets KO'd in 1 by (fill in the blank). You've taken up enough useless space already **** for brains.

Frazier's 15th round
04-03-2006, 01:08 AM
Listen, *****. I'll explain it slowly so you can understand. Frazier was not even looking at Ali when Ali jumped up. Ali jumped up, pushed Frazier's head down, and yet Frazier was the one who pushed him to the floor and was on top of him.

Understand, dickhole?

smasher
04-03-2006, 01:15 AM
Listen, *****. I'll explain it slowly so you can understand. Frazier was not even looking at Ali when Ali jumped up. Ali jumped up, pushed Frazier's head down, and yet Frazier was the one who pushed him to the floor and was on top of him.

Understand, dickhole?
Where in my ****in post did I say Frazier was looking at Ali you ****in ignoramus. Learn how to read and comprehend the english language you dumb stunned and stupid cunt.

Frazier's 15th round
04-03-2006, 01:18 AM
Reread your own ****ing post, *******. You said that Ali (while still sitting) was able to grab Frazier and wrestle him to the floor. You are wrong in both cases. Ali was standing, and Frazier pushed HIM down.

Kid Achilles
04-03-2006, 01:19 AM
That whole thing had a phoney, staged looked to it and I'm quite sure that neither men had the intention of throwing punches at the other. Even if it was spontaneous, Frazier was not going to hit Ali and risk injuring his hand or opening up a cut over Ali's eye and spoiling the rematch. It was a scuffle, not a streetfight.

In a streetfight, Frazier, who was actually in his fair share of them, would have the upper hand. The huge edge in power would just be another factor stacked in his favor. Ali was an all time great in the boxing ring but was a virgin in bare fisted combat where holding and hitting is just part of the game and attitude and killer instinct is king.

I think a lot of Ali's opponents would have kicked his ass out of the ring including Liston, Quarry, Chuvalo, Bonavena, Wepner, Foreman, Bugner, Mac Foster, Cleveland Williams, Lyle...need I continue?

Heckler
04-03-2006, 01:31 AM
Can you logically explain how Frazier would beat Ali? Like i noted earlier Boxing equates very well into streetfighting ability. Is it because Frazier appears big and burly whilst Ali appeared to be a dancing, fragile boxer? I don't know how Frazier having fights as a youngster, before he had any boxing experience gives him the upper-hand. Frazier became a professional, an athlete, a totally differen't animal. Ali has shown that he can trade when need be, against Lyle, against Frazier in the 9th round of FOTC. He can plant his feet and throw sharp, hard, straight punches... and thats about all one needs in a streetfight. Fraziers punching power advantage isn't as relevant on the street, the first punch one of these 200 pound + professional boxers lands with bareknuckles will likely decide the outcome of the fight. Sorry but im not under the illusion that streetfighting as an adolescent and a 'toughguy' image would give Frazier the upperhand prime for prime on a patch of grass in a random location. If you put them both in the octagon (UFC 1 ESSENTIALLY NO RULES AND BAREKNUCKLES) id definately be 50/50 on who would win.

smasher
04-03-2006, 01:31 AM
That whole thing had a phoney, staged looked to it and I'm quite sure that neither men had the intention of throwing punches at the other. Even if it was spontaneous, Frazier was not going to hit Ali and risk injuring his hand or opening up a cut over Ali's eye and spoiling the rematch. It was a scuffle, not a streetfight.

In a streetfight, Frazier, who was actually in his fair share of them, would have the upper hand. The huge edge in power would just be another factor stacked in his favor. Ali was an all time great in the boxing ring but was a virgin in bare fisted combat where holding and hitting is just part of the game and attitude and killer instinct is king.

I think a lot of Ali's opponents would have kicked his ass out of the ring including Liston, Quarry, Chuvalo, Bonavena, Wepner, Foreman, Bugner, Mac Foster, Cleveland Williams, Lyle...need I continue? Not really because you are purely speculating. Bugner in a street fight? You are basing this on what exactly? Street fights are usually fuelled by anger (which is why they would be fighting in the first place) and when 2 angry pissed of guys collide they don't circle, move and trade punch for punch then clinch and wait for a spectator to jump in and break the clinch. When two pissed off guys collide after the initial punches (if any land cleanly) , knees headbutts, wrestling whatever instinct kicks in happens. I have a wealth of boxing experience and have been in enough streetfights to know that once you collide and the other guy grabs your arms, or trips you up, it's anyone's fight. Ali has as good a chance of anyone in a fight which gets taken to the ground.

Kid Achilles
04-03-2006, 01:34 AM
Not really because you are purely speculating. Bugner in a street fight? You are basing this on what exactly? Street fights are usually fuelled by anger (which is why they would be fighting in the first place) and when 2 angry pissed of guys collide they don't circle, move and trade punch for punch then clinch and wait for a spectator to jump in and break the clinch. When two pissed off guys collide after the initial punches (if any land cleanly) , knees headbutts, wrestling whatever instinct kicks in happens. I have a wealth of boxing experience and have been in enough streetfights to know that once you collide and the other guy grabs your arms, or trips you up, it's anyone's fight. Ali has as good a chance of anyone in a fight which gets taken to the ground.

I know and this is precisely why Ali's skills would not help him much and Frazier's superior firepower and killer instinct (not to mention experience in actual fighting out of the ring as opposed to boxing) would give him a big edge over Ali. Obviously anyone has a chance in a streetfight, but you'd have to favor Frazier on attitude, punching power, and experience.

Frazier's 15th round
04-03-2006, 01:36 AM
against Frazier in the 9th round of FOTC.

Ooo, one round. I bet Frazier would be real scared of fighting Ali in the streets.

smasher
04-03-2006, 01:42 AM
I know and this is precisely why Ali's skills would not help him much and Frazier's superior firepower and killer instinct (not to mention experience in actual fighting out of the ring as opposed to boxing) would give him a big edge over Ali. Obviously anyone has a chance in a streetfight, but you'd have to favor Frazier on attitude, punching power, and experience.
Your punching power is a non-factor in a ground fight. You can't plant your feet and get leverage so a big puncher is useless on the ground. Who would think Royce Gracie could beat some of the guys he did. Once on the ground the punchers he faced were useless. When on the ground you have to use arm punches.

Take two trained boxers, with neither one being a grappler then throw them on the ground which is often where a street fight ends up. It's anyone's fight. It comes down to holding strength, and getting a free hand to punch with.

Unless Frazier's streetfighting experience came against 6'3 220 ATG heavyweight champions then it doesn't hold much water. There's a HUGE difference street fighting a professional athlete/heavyweight champion boxer and some punk slug on the Philadelphia streets.

Heckler
04-03-2006, 03:18 AM
I know and this is precisely why Ali's skills would not help him much and Frazier's superior firepower and killer instinct (not to mention experience in actual fighting out of the ring as opposed to boxing) would give him a big edge over Ali. Obviously anyone has a chance in a streetfight, but you'd have to favor Frazier on attitude, punching power, and experience.

Attitude? Its pretty irrelevant with professional boxers. They both dedicate their lives to throwing punches and are both going to instinctively snap out those same punches that they throw in the gym day-in-day-out. Fraziers experience as a teen in philly against nobodys is overided by his professional training. Ali's skills won't help him, but his superior functional strength and speed will. Its anybodys game.

Heckler
04-03-2006, 03:19 AM
And heres a quote... ali talking about getting the gold in 1960. 'I couldn't believe it, going from a young fella fighting with the boys in my neighbourhood to a gold medalist' - That experience is about as irrelevant as Fraziers is.

Heckler
04-03-2006, 03:24 AM
Ali has as good a chance of anyone in a fight which gets taken to the ground.

Ali has a good chance of anyone standing up. We have seen the flurries he threw in the ring, when hes pressed the action. Take him out of the ring, take those gloves off and that same attack is going to drop someone. Ali can hit faster, more accurately, and from a greater distance then most HW boxers.

Yogi
04-03-2006, 03:36 AM
Ooo, one round. I bet Frazier would be real scared of fighting Ali in the streets.

I'm lost as to what direction this thread has gone, so...what happened in that 9th round of the first Frazier/Ali fight?

Heckler
04-03-2006, 03:47 AM
Ali came out, pressed the action, threw plenty of hard fast flurries?

Frazier's 15th round
04-03-2006, 03:52 AM
It was the only round of the fight that Ali won, basically.

Yogi
04-03-2006, 03:54 AM
Ali came out, pressed the action, threw plenty of hard fast flurries?

Did he?

Off hand I don't know, nor do I remember...I was only asking because I have plans to sit down and watch that fight again within the next hour or so (actually probably more like 10/15 minutes...as soon as the wife finishes her show and goes to bed), and I thought maybe something big happened in that round that was worth looking out for.

Yogi
04-03-2006, 04:56 AM
Ali came out, pressed the action, threw plenty of hard fast flurries?

I threw that fight in, fast forwarded it to the 9th round and...meh.

Ali started the round by flicking a bunch of left jabs at Frazier while staying on the outside, and even the odd right hand or hook that he threw wasn't thrown with all that much power (most seemed from the back foot). Frazier pressured Ali to the ropes beyond the halfway point of the round, and when Ali was covering, Frazier scored with a couple of good solid left hooks...THAT seemed to spark Ali somewhat, and towards the very end of the round he did attack Frazier with some much more powerful punches, included was a beauty of a double left hook right on Frazier's chin during one exchange...

I would give Ali the decided edge in that round, for sure, but besides that 10/15 second segment at the very end of the round, it wasn't all that action packed as far as Ali/Frazier round's go.

Heckler
04-03-2006, 05:37 AM
I might be confused with the 13th? Im trying to go on memory also.

Yaman
04-03-2006, 12:53 PM
Yet another lame attempt to sound tough from Yaman the retarded Fubu wearing wannabe Vanilla ******.

Ali and Frazier did just that on Wide World of Sports prior to their second fight when Frazier objected to Ali calling him ignorant. Frazier was literally standing over Ali ready to go and Ali while still seated in his chair was able to grab Frazier and wrestle him to the floor. Frazier couldn't break free and he got no punches off.

Of course I wouldn't expect a white ***** wimp 13 year old to know anything about a streetfight. All of your opinions are based around glowing praise of black men that look fearsome and intimidating to a pencil neck white kid from the suburbs, the kind of black men you wish you were.

Now go to your room and ***** slap your Justin Timberlake doll and pretend you're Sonny Liston.

I'll say it again, ANYTHING and i mean ANYTHING is better than a 40 year old white perv. Thats what you are you disgusting internet perv..look at my sig if you want to know what you look like :D .

Frazier would not only murder Ali in a streetfight, he would kill your ugly ass and rape your stepmother causing your retarded stepbrother to die. Now go ahead and think of a comeback..get another 40 minutes to try to own me wich you wont :D
Ownage of the 40 year old white perv continues :cool: . Your wife loves me.

Now back to the topic. Obviously Frazier would rip Ali to pieces in a streetfight. Everybody would agree except for Ali ballsuckers.

Southpaw Stinger
04-03-2006, 02:04 PM
Frazier would rip Ali to pieces in a streetfight.

Thats true, since Ali isn't designed for street fights.

Dempsey 1919
04-03-2006, 06:14 PM
It was the only round of the fight that Ali won, basically.

be quiet ernie. frazier barely beat ali the first time. ali was kicking the **** out of frazier the first five rounds, and since ali didn't train particularly hard, he wore out and frazier took over. that knockdown IMO basically won the fight for frazier. cause in my eyes, if ali won the fifteenth round, he would have won the fight.

go back to watching tapes of you robbing chuvalo! :D

Frazier's 15th round
04-03-2006, 07:44 PM
be quiet ernie. frazier barely beat ali the first time. ali was kicking the **** out of frazier the first five rounds, and since ali didn't train particularly hard, he wore out and frazier took over. that knockdown IMO basically won the fight for frazier. cause in my eyes, if ali won the fifteenth round, he would have won the fight.

Shut up, Clay. Ali didn't even look like he hurt Frazier once the whole fight, except for maybe stunning him a bit once or twice. By the 5th round, Frazier was just laughing at him. You can say that Ali bruised up Frazier's face, but that's because he only hit him in the damn head. Frazier went to the body just as much as the head, and Ali still had his jaw swollen out 3 inches.

And what is this **** about not training hard? Dundee said that Ali loved to train, and the myths about him being lazy are false. Also, if Ali didn't train particularly hard for the first fight, then Frazier didn't train particularly hard for the second fight.

Dempsey 1919
04-03-2006, 07:59 PM
Shut up, Clay. Ali didn't even look like he hurt Frazier once the whole fight, except for maybe stunning him a bit once or twice. By the 5th round, Frazier was just laughing at him. You can say that Ali bruised up Frazier's face, but that's because he only hit him in the damn head. Frazier went to the body just as much as the head, and Ali still had his jaw swollen out 3 inches.

And what is this **** about not training hard? Dundee said that Ali loved to train, and the myths about him being lazy are false. Also, if Ali didn't train particularly hard for the first fight, then Frazier didn't train particularly hard for the second fight.

he didn't take frazier seriously. why do you think he weighed more for frazier than quarry and bonevena. he wanted to take it easy cause he thought he had it in the bag.

Yaman
04-03-2006, 08:27 PM
he didn't take frazier seriously. why do you think he weighed more for frazier than quarry and bonevena. he wanted to take it easy cause he thought he had it in the bag.

Frazier could(Probably would) beat any version of Ali.

RockyMarcianofan00
04-03-2006, 08:28 PM
Frazier could(Probably would) beat any version of Ali.
Prime Frazier

Dempsey 1919
04-03-2006, 11:15 PM
Frazier could(Probably would) beat any version of Ali.

don't make me laugh. then how come he didn't?

Heckler
04-04-2006, 12:41 AM
Thats true, since Ali isn't designed for street fights.

Designed? on the streets the only advantage Joe has is punching power. Ali has the advantage in physical strength, speed, reach. Yaman im a Ali nut-hugger because im 50/50 on who would win? provide logical reasoning for Frazier winning... all ive seen from people on this thread so far is essentially: i percieve frazier as tough and mean, and ali as a fragile boxer... THUS FRAZIER KILLS ALI. Look at it technically and put these perceptions aside, Frazier didn't always dominate Ali when they started to trade, Ali would usually plant his feet and throw a big one two, frazier would take it and land a big left hook on the inside. Anything could happen, Frazier could come to Ali and get collected with a 1-2... its over. Frazier could come in, Ali throws, doesn't hit him cleanly... Frazier however lands a huge left hook... its over. Frazier comes at Ali, Ali pops out straight punches which don't land cleanly, Frazier throws his on the inside which don't land cleanly... Ali grabs him, they fall to the ground... anyones game. Its not as straightforward as alot of you are implying.

Heckler
04-04-2006, 12:56 AM
Ali fought very well in the FOTC considering the circumstances. He had come off his layoff, did have ring rust, only had 2 tuneup fights when in reality against a fighter of Joe's quality (which he grossly underestimated)he should of had atleast double that. He hadn't yet adapted his style to his new physical characteristics. However, Ali was a still a formidable opponent and Frazier was simply the better fighter on the night. He was mentally prepared, driven and as a result won the most significant fight in boxing history. I do believe that Ali would beat Frazier prime for prime, i think he had the physical gifts required to do this. His stamina and ability to move fluidly for long periods of time would offset Joe's huge workrate. Obviously Frazier15thround is going to use his famous line 'Frazier would beat Ali in his prime, Ali said so himself' - Ali said alot of things, and i have read quotes of Ali that say the exact opposite. People often say such things to be modest. Joe Louis said Rocky Marciano would beat him, but i can guarantee alot of historians beg to differ. Frazier was a great fighter no doubt and probably one of the very hardest matchups for Ali out of all the greats of the past.

Yogi
04-04-2006, 02:35 PM
I might be confused with the 13th? Im trying to go on memory also.

Ah, I don't know, man...There were plenty of moments throughout that fight where Ali stood flatfooted for a moment & flurried, and he was usually getting a left hook or two in reponse when he did so.

The 13th?

I think that was probably Ali's best round after the 9th, because he took a pretty good butt kicking during the 10th, 11th and 12th (and the 14th & 15th, as well)...A good comeback round for him and even though he may have edged it with some flurries to begin the round & from off the ropes, he still had his back to the ropes for much of that round and getting punished by Joe (last half, basically).

You know, you probably were thinking of the 9th round when you brought that up, because that display at the very end of the round was probably Ali's most aggressive punching of the fight, as he actually put his whole body into a few, scored well with a couple of good left hooks, and even backed up Frazier during it...Still it was only a brief moment of about 10 to 15 seconds though.

K-DOGG
04-04-2006, 06:02 PM
Let me begin by saying I love Muhammad Ali for who he is and who he was and what he's meant to the sport. But; in regards to the question at hand, here are the answers I've found to be true...


1.) Ali ran his mouth alot and disrespected Joe Frazier something horrible...some people never forgave him for that.

2.) People generally get tired of being told something over and over again, even if it's true. Everybody and there dad have been tooting Ali's horn for so long, a contingent of people, who disagreed a little to start with, now are vehement in their stand and that Ali was over-rated.

3.) The refusal to be inducted into the Armed forces. While some, such as myself, admire Ali for standing up to the government, others despise him for refusing to take the step and serve his country.

4.) Some younger posters who never saw Ali at his best are especially argumentative towards him because they cannot relate to seeing him fight live and can't believe that some guy who fought before they were born was that good....especially in context to Ali supporters who claim he could have beaten their "god" Mike Tyson or Lennox Lewis.

5.) Anytime a man claims to be "The Greatest of All Time" there are going to be opposing passions arroused. How many men have put on gloves, how many men have been the Best and reigned as World Champion, and what makes this guy think he could have beaten all of them hands down? This especially arrouses the old timers and historians who know their stuff as well as those who do not.....people hate arrogance.

6.) "The Lynyrd Skynyrd Affect".....some people hate Ali simply because some of his fans are so outspoken about his greatness that they're just tired of hearing it from them and Hate Ali as a result of Hating his Fanatics.



There, that's my reasons....hope that helps.

tommyhearns804
04-05-2006, 11:00 PM
Who hates on Ali?If anything the man is the most overrated athelete in sports history.The greatest?Is that he is walking around with brain damage from all of the punches he took?Does the greatest end up that way?Nothing about Ali was great.He wasn't the hardest puncher,He didn't have the best jab or any other punch.He didn't have the fastest hands as you would like to believe (Ali slapped with most of his punches...I am sure the Foreman's Bowe's and guys like Lewis could throw slapping punches fast if they were as weak as Ali was)Ali didn't have a really good chin or guys like Cooper and Jones wouldn't of been able to hurt him with one punch.
Ali wasn't a good boxer.He was a head hunter with no real punch.Never going to the body,never throwing many hooks or uppercuts.Ali had a poor defense which is again why he is the way he is today.Ali got tired pretty quick which is weird because most fighters who can't punch hard had great stamina (And i know some of you will say well Foreman had poor stamina too right?Well Foreman only got tired in 2 fights and since the man had over 80 fights and was only tired 2 times i will say his stamina is alot better than Ali's)
So what did Ali do well?Fight alot of 180 or so fighters in the begging of his career.Kiss up to the white media by making blacks look stupid?Did that make him great?Or did fighting better opponents when he was in his late 20's and early 30's and having them beat his brains out make him the so called greatest?
But yet people still pretend he is.
I will say this again there is no one greatest fighter.There are a few guys who had great skill.Guys who could do everything the needed to do or if they had a weakness they had some level of skill to get away with that weakness.Foreman had great skills.A great punch.He worked the body in his prime.A great chin.A really fast and powerful jab and a tough body.Lewis had a great jab.Great power in his right.He was calm and relaxed which helped him big time.Bowe had simlilar tools.Vitali could of been great if he would of stayed around longer and proved himself.Lyle could of been Great if he didnt turn pro at 27 or 28.You could name a few other people who were or could of become great.
But none of these guys are worshipped like Ali is.Nobody hates on the man.They should but they don't.

Verstyle
04-05-2006, 11:06 PM
Who hates on Ali?If anything the man is the most overrated athelete in sports history.The greatest?Is that he is walking around with brain damage from all of the punches he took?Does the greatest end up that way?Nothing about Ali was great.He wasn't the hardest puncher,He didn't have the best jab or any other punch.He didn't have the fastest hands as you would like to believe (Ali slapped with most of his punches...I am sure the Foreman's Bowe's and guys like Lewis could throw slapping punches fast if they were as weak as Ali was)Ali didn't have a really good chin or guys like Cooper and Jones wouldn't of been able to hurt him with one punch.
Ali wasn't a good boxer.He was a head hunter with no real punch.Never going to the body,never throwing many hooks or uppercuts.Ali had a poor defense which is again why he is the way he is today.Ali got tired pretty quick which is weird because most fighters who can't punch hard had great stamina (And i know some of you will say well Foreman had poor stamina too right?Well Foreman only got tired in 2 fights and since the man had over 80 fights and was only tired 2 times i will say his stamina is alot better than Ali's)
So what did Ali do well?Fight alot of 180 or so fighters in the begging of his career.Kiss up to the white media by making blacks look stupid?Did that make him great?Or did fighting better opponents when he was in his late 20's and early 30's and having them beat his brains out make him the so called greatest?
But yet people still pretend he is.
I will say this again there is no one greatest fighter.There are a few guys who had great skill.Guys who could do everything the needed to do or if they had a weakness they had some level of skill to get away with that weakness.Foreman had great skills.A great punch.He worked the body in his prime.A great chin.A really fast and powerful jab and a tough body.Lewis had a great jab.Great power in his right.He was calm and relaxed which helped him big time.Bowe had simlilar tools.Vitali could of been great if he would of stayed around longer and proved himself.Lyle could of been Great if he didnt turn pro at 27 or 28.You could name a few other people who were or could of become great.
But none of these guys are worshipped like Ali is.Nobody hates on the man.They should but they don't.


we have found butterfly's arch enemy :cool: im surprised u aint sayin nuttin about tyson like usual. but i better shut up before u do :D

smasher
04-05-2006, 11:16 PM
Who hates on Ali?If anything the man is the most overrated athelete in sports history.The greatest?Is that he is walking around with brain damage from all of the punches he took?Does the greatest end up that way?Nothing about Ali was great.He wasn't the hardest puncher,He didn't have the best jab or any other punch.He didn't have the fastest hands as you would like to believe (Ali slapped with most of his punches...I am sure the Foreman's Bowe's and guys like Lewis could throw slapping punches fast if they were as weak as Ali was)Ali didn't have a really good chin or guys like Cooper and Jones wouldn't of been able to hurt him with one punch.
Ali wasn't a good boxer.He was a head hunter with no real punch.Never going to the body,never throwing many hooks or uppercuts.Ali had a poor defense which is again why he is the way he is today.Ali got tired pretty quick which is weird because most fighters who can't punch hard had great stamina (And i know some of you will say well Foreman had poor stamina too right?Well Foreman only got tired in 2 fights and since the man had over 80 fights and was only tired 2 times i will say his stamina is alot better than Ali's)
So what did Ali do well?Fight alot of 180 or so fighters in the begging of his career.Kiss up to the white media by making blacks look stupid?Did that make him great?Or did fighting better opponents when he was in his late 20's and early 30's and having them beat his brains out make him the so called greatest?
But yet people still pretend he is.
I will say this again there is no one greatest fighter.There are a few guys who had great skill.Guys who could do everything the needed to do or if they had a weakness they had some level of skill to get away with that weakness.Foreman had great skills.A great punch.He worked the body in his prime.A great chin.A really fast and powerful jab and a tough body.Lewis had a great jab.Great power in his right.He was calm and relaxed which helped him big time.Bowe had simlilar tools.Vitali could of been great if he would of stayed around longer and proved himself.Lyle could of been Great if he didnt turn pro at 27 or 28.You could name a few other people who were or could of become great.
But none of these guys are worshipped like Ali is.Nobody hates on the man.They should but they don't.
Incredible! They taught a chimpanzee how to use a computer! What next? Peel your own bananas and wipe your own ass?

Dempsey 1919
04-05-2006, 11:18 PM
Who hates on Ali?If anything the man is the most overrated athelete in sports history.The greatest?Is that he is walking around with brain damage from all of the punches he took?Does the greatest end up that way?Nothing about Ali was great.He wasn't the hardest puncher,He didn't have the best jab or any other punch.He didn't have the fastest hands as you would like to believe (Ali slapped with most of his punches...I am sure the Foreman's Bowe's and guys like Lewis could throw slapping punches fast if they were as weak as Ali was)Ali didn't have a really good chin or guys like Cooper and Jones wouldn't of been able to hurt him with one punch.
Ali wasn't a good boxer.He was a head hunter with no real punch.Never going to the body,never throwing many hooks or uppercuts.Ali had a poor defense which is again why he is the way he is today.Ali got tired pretty quick which is weird because most fighters who can't punch hard had great stamina (And i know some of you will say well Foreman had poor stamina too right?Well Foreman only got tired in 2 fights and since the man had over 80 fights and was only tired 2 times i will say his stamina is alot better than Ali's)
So what did Ali do well?Fight alot of 180 or so fighters in the begging of his career.Kiss up to the white media by making blacks look stupid?Did that make him great?Or did fighting better opponents when he was in his late 20's and early 30's and having them beat his brains out make him the so called greatest?
But yet people still pretend he is.
I will say this again there is no one greatest fighter.There are a few guys who had great skill.Guys who could do everything the needed to do or if they had a weakness they had some level of skill to get away with that weakness.Foreman had great skills.A great punch.He worked the body in his prime.A great chin.A really fast and powerful jab and a tough body.Lewis had a great jab.Great power in his right.He was calm and relaxed which helped him big time.Bowe had simlilar tools.Vitali could of been great if he would of stayed around longer and proved himself.Lyle could of been Great if he didnt turn pro at 27 or 28.You could name a few other people who were or could of become great.
But none of these guys are worshipped like Ali is.Nobody hates on the man.They should but they don't.

well, obviously you hate on him. lol, you're worst than frazier15thround. you are the biggest george foreman nuthuger on this site. foreman wasn't that good to begin with. he besically relied on brute strength and and a little bity of limited skills his whole career. guy's like peralta gave him hell. someone like holmes could beat foreman. liston would be too much for him. can you in your inebriated state say jimmy young? :D young made him look like a fool just like an old decrepit ali did. imagine if it was 25yr. old ali. 25yr. old muhammad would litterally kill him! stop beating off to foreman! :eek:

Heckler
04-06-2006, 08:35 AM
Who hates on Ali?If anything the man is the most overrated athelete in sports history.The greatest?Is that he is walking around with brain damage from all of the punches he took?Does the greatest end up that way?Nothing about Ali was great.He wasn't the hardest puncher,He didn't have the best jab or any other punch.He didn't have the fastest hands as you would like to believe (Ali slapped with most of his punches...I am sure the Foreman's Bowe's and guys like Lewis could throw slapping punches fast if they were as weak as Ali was)Ali didn't have a really good chin or guys like Cooper and Jones wouldn't of been able to hurt him with one punch.
Ali wasn't a good boxer.He was a head hunter with no real punch.Never going to the body,never throwing many hooks or uppercuts.Ali had a poor defense which is again why he is the way he is today.Ali got tired pretty quick which is weird because most fighters who can't punch hard had great stamina (And i know some of you will say well Foreman had poor stamina too right?Well Foreman only got tired in 2 fights and since the man had over 80 fights and was only tired 2 times i will say his stamina is alot better than Ali's)
So what did Ali do well?Fight alot of 180 or so fighters in the begging of his career.Kiss up to the white media by making blacks look stupid?Did that make him great?Or did fighting better opponents when he was in his late 20's and early 30's and having them beat his brains out make him the so called greatest?
But yet people still pretend he is.
I will say this again there is no one greatest fighter.There are a few guys who had great skill.Guys who could do everything the needed to do or if they had a weakness they had some level of skill to get away with that weakness.Foreman had great skills.A great punch.He worked the body in his prime.A great chin.A really fast and powerful jab and a tough body.Lewis had a great jab.Great power in his right.He was calm and relaxed which helped him big time.Bowe had simlilar tools.Vitali could of been great if he would of stayed around longer and proved himself.Lyle could of been Great if he didnt turn pro at 27 or 28.You could name a few other people who were or could of become great.
But none of these guys are worshipped like Ali is.Nobody hates on the man.They should but they don't.

MUWAHHAHAH no-1 takes you seriously on this board, its awesome.. you put all this effort into you're post and no-1 gives a ****... just another retard tommyhearns post that gives a laugh.

Frazier's 15th round
04-06-2006, 07:09 PM
Tommyhearns is a brilliant fellow. I'm going to give him some good karma.

Dempsey 1919
04-06-2006, 07:13 PM
Tommyhearns is a brilliant fellow. I'm going to give him some good karma.

you're a *****.

Yogi
04-06-2006, 07:25 PM
you're a *****.

:rolleyes:

Dempsey 1919
04-06-2006, 07:26 PM
:rolleyes:

:rolleyes:

:D

Kid Achilles
04-06-2006, 08:37 PM
Did I read that incorrectly or did Tommhearns just say that RON LYLE had more potential than Muhammad Ali??

SuzieQ49
04-07-2006, 02:06 AM
Incredible! They taught a chimpanzee how to use a computer! What next? Peel your own bananas and wipe your own ass?
:haha: :haha: :haha:

SuzieQ49
04-07-2006, 02:07 AM
tommyhearns,



ali KO 8 foreman