View Full Version : As boxing fans are we too forgiving?


TBear
03-08-2012, 03:54 AM
I ask because I am a fan of fighters like Carlos Monzon and Mike Tyson but do we as boxing fans overlook things certain fighters do outside the ring because of what they have accomplished in side of it?

Rockin'
03-08-2012, 04:15 AM
I ask because I am a fan of fighters like Carlos Monzon and Mike Tyson but do we as boxing fans overlook things certain fighters do outside the ring because of what they have accomplished in side of it?

I understand where you're coming from T-Bear. Alot of fighters were brought up in ghetto type areas therefore alot of them have had trouble in the past. I can over look almost anything if the person learned or paid the price for his actions. But I will never forgive Tyson for biting Evanders ear, that was the most disgracefull thing that I have ever seen in the sporting world.

We kinda have to be forgiving or we wouldn't have a whole lot of guys to root for..........Rockin':boxing:

TBear
03-08-2012, 04:37 AM
I understand where you're coming from T-Bear. Alot of fighters were brought up in ghetto type areas therefore alot of them have had trouble in the past. I can over look almost anything if the person learned or paid the price for his actions. But I will never forgive Tyson for biting Evanders ear, that was the most disgracefull thing that I have ever seen in the sporting world.

We kinda have to be forgiving or we wouldn't have a whole lot of guys to root for..........Rockin':boxing:

Rockin' I agree about the ear bitting incident, especially during a world heavyweight fight being televised around the world. Some things should be sacred!

That certainly qualifies but I was refering more to fans that praise fighters that commit unforgivable acts outside the ring, I often wonder if fans of other sports are as forgiving as boxing fans.

LeG00N
03-08-2012, 04:38 AM
IMO aslong as they've paid for what they've done outside of the ring . I think it's okay to forgive them or at least like/root for them inside of it.

New England
03-08-2012, 09:34 AM
I understand where you're coming from T-Bear. Alot of fighters were brought up in ghetto type areas therefore alot of them have had trouble in the past. I can over look almost anything if the person learned or paid the price for his actions. But I will never forgive Tyson for biting Evanders ear, that was the most disgracefull thing that I have ever seen in the sporting world.

We kinda have to be forgiving or we wouldn't have a whole lot of guys to root for..........Rockin':boxing:



carlos monzon killed his wife

there's a huge gap between biting somebody's ear off in a fight and killing your own wife


i try and separate what went on in the ring and what these guys do in their personal lives.
carlos monzon was a horrible dude. he killed his fuccking wife.
likewise, mike tyson raped somebody's daughter, or at least an overwhelming amount of evidence seems to point to that.

it shouldn't have any bearing on my evaluation of his status as an ATG, or my ranking of him as a MW, but i certainly don't simply forgive him of it.
likewise with tyson, we can evaluate what he's done inside the ring, but i certainly dont turn a blind eye to the fact that he raped an 18 year old girl

IronDanHamza
03-08-2012, 10:10 AM
I could care less what a fighter does outside the ring. I really could not care any less.

If a fighter is the most wonderful person ever or he's a mass murderer it makes no difference to me. If I like what they do in the ring then I'll be a fan of them and defend what they did in the ring.

It's two separate worlds to me.

Carlos Monzon is one of my favourite fighters, possibly my very favourite. The fact he killed his wife doesn't change that and never will.

ny123
03-08-2012, 10:23 AM
Not only boxing fans but just sports fans in general.

Barn
03-08-2012, 01:55 PM
Without a doubt.

Joe Louis is a prime example. Although he did an awful lot for society, especially in the civil rights front. He beat up a woman, people tend to forget this and hail him as an amazing human being.
Amazing human beings quite frankly do not beat up women.

I don't mind if you call Monzon etc the greatest boxer ever. If that's what you believe that's fine. If you go saying Monzon, Louis, Leonard etc are All Time Great people. Then you're flat out wrong.

The Surgeon
03-08-2012, 02:42 PM
I grew up idolising Tyson, his out of the ring antics have had zero influence on me, i know right from wrong. These guys are FIGHTERS they came up rough, some of them REAL Rough - they aint Role Models, at least not for the most part....

On the other hand i like Miguel Cotto almost as much for the man as for the fighter, i just like the way he carries and conducts himself - all class.

I must add that i can NEVER and not just as a Cotto fan forgive or be passive when it comes to the actions of Antonio Margarito and those wraps. It was premeditated and dangerous. Was it as bad as Valero and Monzon murdering their wives? No not even close but im a fan of what these guys do in the ring not out of it and because Margarito took his evil act into the Ring - Our Ring, its different

bojangles1987
03-08-2012, 03:14 PM
It's not just boxing fans, it's sports fans in general. I don't see how anyone can just completely separate the person from the athlete, to a certain level I could, like the many who cheat on their wives or are addicted to drugs, but the ones that beat the crap out of women or kill people? I can't just forget about that because of what they do in the ring.

Growth
03-08-2012, 05:47 PM
I never it got when people praise Valero. He never fought anybody in the ring and was an arse in real life.

Spray_resistant
03-08-2012, 11:04 PM
Yes, we have hearts of gold.

GrandpaBernard
03-09-2012, 12:24 AM
I have problems with the margaritos of boxing, not the various wifebeaters throughout the sport's history.

Someone88
03-09-2012, 03:31 AM
I'm not sure it depends, but I actually think some people were very harsh on Tyson he had a very tough background but he was nice sometimes and now he shows he had it in him so that's great

U_TALKING_2_ME?
03-12-2012, 01:43 PM
what a fighter does outside of the ring is of no concern to me, i am watching boxing not the WWE, just like if i like a movie i dont care what the actors do, what they eat, who they are f*cking etc. who am i to judge anyone anyway? and really if i care about what someone that i dont even know personally is doing because i like the way they fight,act ect. i should seek help.

jabsRstiff
03-12-2012, 04:20 PM
Think about it......when you root for a fighter, any fighter, you are hoping to see him inlict as much physical damage on his foe as possible. The nature of the sport is savage, so I find it hard to be moral about a guy's ways outside of the ring while rooting to see him physically obliterate a human being who did nothing wrong.

kendom
03-12-2012, 04:54 PM
Their boxers not humanitarians, they knock people out for a living they're not going to be the most stable of people. I admire their abilities in the ring but not outside. For example I love watching Sugar Ray Robinsons KOs but fact was he was still a sick human being to give his wife all those miscarriages from domestic abuse. And what is it with boxers and domestic abuse? you would think that people who are in a sport that requires tremendous bravery wouldn't commit an act that society deems as "cowardly".

wladimir1988
03-12-2012, 05:38 PM
No, a huge amount of issues are vastly exaggerated for media purposes.

I mean there are a few things you got to keep in mind when reading about boxers and athletes and rumors. You don't know them irl so you can't judge them at all.

There is a huge difference between
1- a drunk college frat boy who beat up a sweet college girl that refuse to have sex with him

and

2- Mike Tyson hitting a gold digging black mailer who threaten to spill info on his best friend to the cops.


Just examples.. You don't really know the situations and can not judge. The men and women surrounding most athletes are *******s and just trying to use these athletes for their own personal gains.

Also people go through phases, Mike Tyson seem incredibly gentle and nice during his prime years and during his years after retirement. It's the years in between he went insane.


You just can't judge people base on what you read. A NBA example

Rasheed Wallace the NBA thug of the early 2000's was actually found out to have donated millions to charities privately without even making any media deal about it, he also supports mentally disabled friends and children. THIS GUY got the worse image in the world and did these things


Kobe Bryant ... the nba golden poster child for great behavior was arrested for alleged rape.

Also a lot of athletes just don't feel the need to explain situations and explain themselves because that's not the way their personalities are.

Joe frazier might be look upon now as a boxing idol and hero AND HE IS.

BUT during the ali days a huge amount of people view Joe Frazier as a ass kissing uncle tom who BETRAYED ALI of all things...

Joe just never even try to explain himself to the media because that's not the kind of person he is.

Guys like Tyson is like that, despite all his anger and rage before he never try to make excuses for himself. So we don't really know what prompt certain things.



Last point of course you never should hit a woman but if u are a trained fighter and certain actions push you OVER THE EDGE

it is sort of understandable

FEMALE FRIEND you never slept with, blackmails you say they will tell the girl you love most in the world you DID slept with her if you don t give her cash. In the spur of the moment you hit her.....

all of a sudden you are a women beater....

Athletes are just surrounded by the wrong people in general it is what it is.

Someone88
03-12-2012, 08:26 PM
Their boxers not humanitarians, they knock people out for a living they're not going to be the most stable of people. I admire their abilities in the ring but not outside. For example I love watching Sugar Ray Robinsons KOs but fact was he was still a sick human being to give his wife all those miscarriages from domestic abuse. And what is it with boxers and domestic abuse? you would think that people who are in a sport that requires tremendous bravery wouldn't commit an act that society deems as "cowardly".

It's wrong but I don't think they view it as that they have so much anger that they just do the wrong thing, also there are well behaved Boxers too it's like with everywhere people are different

No, a huge amount of issues are vastly exaggerated for media purposes.

I mean there are a few things you got to keep in mind when reading about boxers and athletes and rumors. You don't know them irl so you can't judge them at all.

There is a huge difference between
1- a drunk college frat boy who beat up a sweet college girl that refuse to have sex with him

and

2- Mike Tyson hitting a gold digging black mailer who threaten to spill info on his best friend to the cops.


Just examples.. You don't really know the situations and can not judge. The men and women surrounding most athletes are *******s and just trying to use these athletes for their own personal gains.

Also people go through phases, Mike Tyson seem incredibly gentle and nice during his prime years and during his years after retirement. It's the years in between he went insane.


You just can't judge people base on what you read. A NBA example

Rasheed Wallace the NBA thug of the early 2000's was actually found out to have donated millions to charities privately without even making any media deal about it, he also supports mentally disabled friends and children. THIS GUY got the worse image in the world and did these things


Kobe Bryant ... the nba golden poster child for great behavior was arrested for alleged rape.

Also a lot of athletes just don't feel the need to explain situations and explain themselves because that's not the way their personalities are.

Joe frazier might be look upon now as a boxing idol and hero AND HE IS.

BUT during the ali days a huge amount of people view Joe Frazier as a ass kissing uncle tom who BETRAYED ALI of all things...

Joe just never even try to explain himself to the media because that's not the kind of person he is.

Guys like Tyson is like that, despite all his anger and rage before he never try to make excuses for himself. So we don't really know what prompt certain things.



Last point of course you never should hit a woman but if u are a trained fighter and certain actions push you OVER THE EDGE

it is sort of understandable

FEMALE FRIEND you never slept with, blackmails you say they will tell the girl you love most in the world you DID slept with her if you don t give her cash. In the spur of the moment you hit her.....

all of a sudden you are a women beater....

Athletes are just surrounded by the wrong people in general it is what it is.

Some good points made

GrandpaBernard
03-12-2012, 09:38 PM
Their boxers not humanitarians, they knock people out for a living they're not going to be the most stable of people. I admire their abilities in the ring but not outside. For example I love watching Sugar Ray Robinsons KOs but fact was he was still a sick human being to give his wife all those miscarriages from domestic abuse. And what is it with boxers and domestic abuse? you would think that people who are in a sport that requires tremendous bravery wouldn't commit an act that society deems as "cowardly".Domestically abusing or not doing it has very little to do with measuring how brave someone is or isn't. We have boxers and service members that make danger a career but are domestic abusers. These guys put themselves into these potentially lethal situations by choice. I'd say the average one is braver than many people even if they beat up women in their spare time.

It has a lot to do with culture. In some parts of the world and in the old days it was acceptable for people to physically put their spouses back in line. Women rights has progressed, and it's no longer acceptable. Society then attaches a label like cowardly onto it in order to shame people into following its guideline.

Starof David
03-12-2012, 10:35 PM
It's not that tough being a role model. Some athletes were not good people before they got good and getting alot of money does change their nature. There are some athletes I just cannot respect no matter how good they did in sports because they were asses the rest of the time. But the ones that tried to make amends and change themself I can forgive.

wladimir1988
03-12-2012, 11:43 PM
ya society progression need to be a factor here.

BIG FACTOR. Like in some countries even a decade ago you can beat your kids, there were a lot of wife beaters in the 60's 70's etc.

Women's rights have progressed to the point now that it will be suicidal to do these things. But back then its different.

Also education plays a huge part when it comes to athletes

Look at this.

OBVIOUSLY in college you can't beat women (good luck with that rofl) and you must treat girls with respect if you want any shot at getting them.

You get out of high school college etc it's mostly en grained in you

College you are surrounded by different crowds teach you different morals.

As oppose to ghetto areas around the world where morals are a lot less talked about.

So it's all about the environment they grew up in.



It really is about the environment.
The Klitschkos went to high school college Grad School etc, so the way they do things is different. It have nothing to do with skin color just the environment they grew up in.

Good luck saying 'SUP MAH *****ES' in a lecture class that is 50% Female..

But in a poor ghetto area that's every day speech.

kendom
03-13-2012, 04:19 PM
Domestically abusing or not doing it has very little to do with measuring how brave someone is or isn't. We have boxers and service members that make danger a career but are domestic abusers. These guys put themselves into these potentially lethal situations by choice. I'd say the average one is braver than many people even if they beat up women in their spare time.

I dont think domestically abusing someone has anything to do with bravery, that's why I put cowardly under inverted commas. I just noticed that there was a trend with boxers and domestic violence.

It has a lot to do with culture. In some parts of the world and in the old days it was acceptable for people to physically put their spouses back in line. Women rights has progressed, and it's no longer acceptable. Society then attaches a label like cowardly onto it in order to shame people into following its guideline.

There's domestic violence and then theres giving your wife numerus miscarriages. Who the **** beats pregnant women? especially since she's your wife. Giving birth to your children. Come on man, I can't excuse that. To be honest this "it was OK to beat your wife in the Old days talk" is overstated, there are newspaper clippings from 1899 of men getting whipped for beating their wives.

Marchegiano
03-13-2012, 07:05 PM
There's domestic violence and then theres giving your wife numerus miscarriages. Who the **** beats pregnant women? especially since she's your wife. Giving birth to your children. Come on man, I can't excuse that. To be honest this "it was OK to beat your wife in the Old days talk" is overstated, there are newspaper clippings from 1899 of men getting whipped for beating their wives.

lol ok buddy. that's the norm of the 19th century is it. When men beat women they get a whoopin' themselves eh? there's no evidence to suggest that's the exception....totally the norm.

Barn
03-13-2012, 07:49 PM
There's domestic violence and then theres giving your wife numerus miscarriages. Who the **** beats pregnant women? especially since she's your wife. Giving birth to your children. Come on man, I can't excuse that. To be honest this "it was OK to beat your wife in the Old days talk" is overstated, there are newspaper clippings from 1899 of men getting whipped for beating their wives.
Agreed, anyone who beats women is stupid and I cannot forgive them morally regardless of the conditions.

kendom
03-13-2012, 08:14 PM
lol ok buddy. that's the norm of the 19th century is it. When men beat women they get a whoopin' themselves eh? there's no evidence to suggest that's the exception....totally the norm.

I used to think the same too, then I came across this pretty little website
http://unknownmisandry.blogspot.com/search/label/Domestic%20Violence

Everything there is sourced, people try to use the old changing culture argument to justify these past boxers actions, like people in those days would beat their wives and people would cheer. Fact is it's wrong now and it's just as wrong then.

GrandpaBernard
03-14-2012, 12:59 AM
when you say you don't 'forgive' these wifebeaters what do you mean? do you stop being fans once you find out they were domestic abusers? that's quite a few extremely elite boxers that you can't enjoy.

some of the historically biggest fights of all time starred wifebeaters
Ali-Frazier, both of them
Louis-Schmeling
Leonard-Hearns
Gatti-Ward
Hagler-Hearns

GrandpaBernard
03-14-2012, 01:12 AM
There's domestic violence and then theres giving your wife numerus miscarriages. Who the **** beats pregnant women? especially since she's your wife. Giving birth to your children. Come on man, I can't excuse that. To be honest this "it was OK to beat your wife in the Old days talk" is overstated, there are newspaper clippings from 1899 of men getting whipped for beating their wives.It may be overstated, but we'd be lying to you if we said it wasn't more acceptable back then compared to now.

I could also put together a collection of evidence for how hitting spouses wasn't considered as bad in the past vs the present.

Sean Connery was interviewed in the November 1965 issue of Playboy and explained that it's okay to hit women if they anger you. That's more recent than any of the examples in the link you gave.

GrandpaBernard
03-14-2012, 01:23 AM
In January 1911, Johnson married Etta Terry Duryea. A Brooklyn socialite and former wife of businessman Charles Duryea, she met Johnson at a car race in 1909. Their romantic involvement was very turbulent. Beaten many times by Johnson and suffering from severe depression, she committed suicide in September 1912, shooting herself with a revolver.

Barn
03-14-2012, 05:03 AM
Did a Johnson wife/assosiate/girlfriend not hang herself too?

Someone88
03-14-2012, 09:06 AM
when you say you don't 'forgive' these wifebeaters what do you mean? do you stop being fans once you find out they were domestic abusers? that's quite a few extremely elite boxers that you can't enjoy.

some of the historically biggest fights of all time starred wifebeaters
Ali-Frazier, both of them
Louis-Schmeling
Leonard-Hearns
Gatti-Ward
Hagler-Hearns

I've read Ali's Book and didn't see anything about him hitting his Wife, I don't know but I don't think it was like the other cases

Someone88
03-14-2012, 09:07 AM
It may be overstated, but we'd be lying to you if we said it wasn't more acceptable back then compared to now.

I could also put together a collection of evidence for how hitting spouses wasn't considered as bad in the past vs the present.

Sean Connery was interviewed in the November 1965 issue of Playboy and explained that it's okay to hit women if they anger you. That's more recent than any of the examples in the link you gave.

It does seem that way

SelectOne
03-14-2012, 09:18 AM
I think we just want to see the best fights but these days the 2-3 year delays in having the big fights are taking there toll on the fans soon as so called big fish are gone manny and floyd say in 3 years time we will be ridd of this manny floyd head banging against a wall debate and i for one can not wait for the day either retires

GrandpaBernard
03-14-2012, 10:47 AM
I've read Ali's Book and didn't see anything about him hitting his Wife, I don't know but I don't think it was like the other casesYep, Ali's story is pretty much swept under the rug due to how glorified he is in the modern era. Many people can't handle the fact their idol was one of those guys too

About Ali punching his wife:

From Sugar Ray Robinson book, Pound for Pound - Muhammad Ali took his wife into the bathroom and beat her.

The reason? His wife's skirt is short.

From Ali's biography The Greatest - When Robinson tried to intervene, Ali shouted "Ray, you ain't nothin' but a middleweight!"

Even boxing's greatest hero who is seen as a symbol of courage and other various virtues was a participant

Someone88
03-14-2012, 11:01 AM
Yep, Ali's story is pretty much swept under the rug due to how glorified he is in the modern era. Many people can't handle the fact their idol was one of those guys too

About Ali punching his wife:

From Sugar Ray Robinson book, Pound for Pound - Muhammad Ali took his wife into the bathroom and beat her.

The reason? His wife's skirt is short.

From Ali's biography The Greatest - When Robinson tried to intervene, Ali shouted "Ray, you ain't nothin' but a middleweight!"

Even boxing's greatest hero who is seen as a symbol of courage and other various virtues was a participant

Oh ok that is bad if it happened but didn't Robinson hit women? That's what others said also I think Ali was nice outside the ring usually from what I've heard about others meeting him, it depends on how people judge others

Barn
03-14-2012, 01:58 PM
when you say you don't 'forgive' these wifebeaters what do you mean? do you stop being fans once you find out they were domestic abusers? that's quite a few extremely elite boxers that you can't enjoy.

some of the historically biggest fights of all time starred wifebeaters
Ali-Frazier, both of them
Louis-Schmeling
Leonard-Hearns
Gatti-Ward
Hagler-Hearns
I still question the Hagler one, he was found guily and got community service?

Community service for being a prizefighter and assualting a women?

GrandpaBernard
03-14-2012, 07:10 PM
Oh ok that is bad if it happened but didn't Robinson hit women? That's what others said also I think Ali was nice outside the ring usually from what I've heard about others meeting him, it depends on how people judge others

yes, Robinson did too

almost half of this thread is about how crazy the beatings he gave out to his wife were

The_Demon
03-14-2012, 08:17 PM
As the old saying goes-Quick to know,but slow to judge

I dont worry about what fighters do outside the ring,and im certainly not one to judge,and i doubt the majority of posters on this forum are either

C.Y.
03-14-2012, 09:26 PM
I understand where you're coming from T-Bear. But I will never forgive Tyson for biting Evanders ear, that was the most disgracefull thing that I have ever seen in the sporting world.


I've seen worse, and I won't forgive Evan Fields aka Holyfield for intentionally headbutting Tyson in both fights.. Also wasn't a fan of his heabutts and low blows prior to being bitten. He initiated the rough tactics and got what he deserved

Someone88
03-14-2012, 09:40 PM
yes, Robinson did too

almost half of this thread is about how crazy the beatings he gave out to his wife were

Yeh that's terrible the other situations with other Fighters I'm not sure of there are other things to consider

As the old saying goes-Quick to know,but slow to judge

I dont worry about what fighters do outside the ring,and im certainly not one to judge,and i doubt the majority of posters on this forum are either

Good points made

The Iron Man
03-15-2012, 12:08 PM
Yeah definitely, I guess as boxing fans we judge them on their boxing abilities rather than their antics outside the ring!

But also in many cases we judge to harshly as well, I mean some of these fighters are 19-23 years old and get crucified for saying outrageous things, these are kids with too much money and fame, it goes to their head and they mess up.

I think many harshly judged fighters deserve second chances.

Mannie Phresh
03-16-2012, 04:32 PM
no i dont look for role models in boxing or any sport for that matter. you shouldnt be so butt hurt about what a fighter does outside the ring just inside.

Mannie Phresh
03-16-2012, 04:33 PM
I'll never forgive Clay, Ali, or whatever you want to call him. He was a loud mouth punk and coward. he roared like a lion but fought like a ballerina. Pure trash with no class. if he was ever face to face with me today I would knock him cold with one blow. Karma's a ***** and that's what I tell myself when I see them shakes that got a hold of him today.

your a psychopath

Barn
03-16-2012, 04:55 PM
your a psychopath
physcopath, more like ****ing dickhead.

The Surgeon
03-16-2012, 05:36 PM
physcopath, more like ****ing dickhead.

Excellent assessment.

****ing Ring Worm....

The Surgeon
03-16-2012, 05:43 PM
Personally for me i think the BBBC has been harsh on Del Boy Chisora, he was classless with the spitting but everything else to me is part of the game, an ugly part but hey it happens. A hefty fine donated straight to the victims (Wlad) would serve far better IMO. The brawl might have been a bit more exaggerated than most but its hardly something new, neither was the slap and they both got people interested in HW boxing like it or not. Chisora never asked to be a "Role Model" and he shouldnt be viewed as one, i dont know a living soul who claims Del is his role model.... These guys are fighters and not everybody is a role model

Mannie Phresh
03-16-2012, 06:32 PM
physcopath, more like ****ing dickhead.

usually scum like that responds to ***** talking and i dont wanna talk to them.

#1Assassin
03-17-2012, 07:30 PM
no, the oposite. and that goes for all all celebs not just fighters.

we really have nothing to do with their private lives, we dont know them and even if we did we are in no position to judge them. whetever they do is between them, their families and in some cases law enforcement.

no matter how bad it gets it does nothing to take away from their accomplishemnts in the ring, just like their accomplihments dont change what they do outside it. but its up to law enforcement and their families to judge, not some random guy on the internet. mind your own damn business people, as a fan it should be all about the boxing.