View Full Version : Tommy Hearns was sadly underrated...


Mintcar923
02-28-2012, 10:00 PM
Funny, it seemed as though back in the day many fans/critics would put Tommy's rivals Sugar Ray Leonard, Roberto Duran, and Marvin Hagler above him. Fact is, you could also make the case that Tommy at the very least belongs up there with them or you could even make the case that he was superior. When I was a kid back in the '80's I had always believed Ray to be the greatest of the "Fab Four.." But now, as a grown up I think otherwise.

Fact of the matter is Tommy had amazing boxing skills, great two-fisted power, and a wonderful "Champion" kind of personality. In the first part of his career he appeared to be unbeatable. He either boxed circles around them or knocked 'em dead. The first Leonard-Hearns was an awesome all-time classic which Sugar Ray had won. The fight was dramatic and one of the greatest bouts in welterweight history. It could have gone either way but it was in the cards for Leonard that night. The second fight was perhaps the last great fight of the '80's and was a very similar fight. The only difference was Tommy Hearns won decisively and had avenged his loss in most peoples eyes. However, the judges robbed him and the fight was called a draw. This controversey called for an immediate rematch of which Ray wanted no part of. Why, because he knew who the superior boxer was! Also, I think it played on Hagler's mind on making a comeback being he got the upper-hand on the fighter who had out-boxed him.

Granted, Hearns wasn't perfect as he lost a couple fights he should have won. He employed the wrong strategy in the Hagler fight. I'm sure he could have implemented the one Ray used in April '87 and won, but I think he wanted to give the fans a great fight that night and it costed him. He also fell victim to a lucky punch in the first Barkely fight of which anyone could've.

More facts... Tommy Hearns bombed out Roberto Duran which NO-ONE ever did back in the '80's. He even climbed up to Light Heavyweight and defeated a prime undefeated Virgil Hill. But they give Ray more props for doing the same thing with the inferior Donny LaLonde!! Go figure!!!

One more last Ray Leonard comparison. Do you really believe Tommy Hearns would have lost as badly to Terry Norris and HECTOR CAMACHO at the end of his career?? I think not. I doubt he'd have even lost at all. I don't want to come off as knocking Sugar Ray or the others... But, in my mind Tommy Hearns was the total package in his era.

Young Money
02-28-2012, 10:12 PM
Underrated? The guy is like legend status

Bruce Almighty
02-28-2012, 10:15 PM
Motor City Cobra was no joke! Im reading a book called Hitman about the life of Tommy Hearns and hope to make it to his Hall of Fame induction. Definately one of my favorite boxers of all time, and yes i think he was better than SRL

Scott9945
02-28-2012, 10:16 PM
I don't believe Tommy Hearns has ever been underrated. He was one of boxing's elite and was always regarded that way.

talip bin osman
02-29-2012, 05:18 AM
well, mr. hearns is a hall of famer (ATG at that) and famous... he is respected and admired by most boxing afficionados that i know...

i haven't met anyone ( at least those who know what they are talking about ) who underrated / underrates him...:)

Sugarj
02-29-2012, 06:31 AM
Funny, it seemed as though back in the day many fans/critics would put Tommy's rivals Sugar Ray Leonard, Roberto Duran, and Marvin Hagler above him. Fact is, you could also make the case that Tommy at the very least belongs up there with them or you could even make the case that he was superior. When I was a kid back in the '80's I had always believed Ray to be the greatest of the "Fab Four.." But now, as a grown up I think otherwise.

Fact of the matter is Tommy had amazing boxing skills, great two-fisted power, and a wonderful "Champion" kind of personality. In the first part of his career he appeared to be unbeatable. He either boxed circles around them or knocked 'em dead. The first Leonard-Hearns was an awesome all-time classic which Sugar Ray had won. The fight was dramatic and one of the greatest bouts in welterweight history. It could have gone either way but it was in the cards for Leonard that night. The second fight was perhaps the last great fight of the '80's and was a very similar fight. The only difference was Tommy Hearns won decisively and had avenged his loss in most peoples eyes. However, the judges robbed him and the fight was called a draw. This controversey called for an immediate rematch of which Ray wanted no part of. Why, because he knew who the superior boxer was! Also, I think it played on Hagler's mind on making a comeback being he got the upper-hand on the fighter who had out-boxed him.

Granted, Hearns wasn't perfect as he lost a couple fights he should have won. He employed the wrong strategy in the Hagler fight. I'm sure he could have implemented the one Ray used in April '87 and won, but I think he wanted to give the fans a great fight that night and it costed him. He also fell victim to a lucky punch in the first Barkely fight of which anyone could've.

More facts... Tommy Hearns bombed out Roberto Duran which NO-ONE ever did back in the '80's. He even climbed up to Light Heavyweight and defeated a prime undefeated Virgil Hill. But they give Ray more props for doing the same thing with the inferior Donny LaLonde!! Go figure!!!

One more last Ray Leonard comparison. Do you really believe Tommy Hearns would have lost as badly to Terry Norris and HECTOR CAMACHO at the end of his career?? I think not. I doubt he'd have even lost at all. I don't want to come off as knocking Sugar Ray or the others... But, in my mind Tommy Hearns was the total package in his era.


I agree with alot of what you say............but you ruin an excellent post with an implausibly weak final paragraph.

Leonard finished the 80s as a super middleweight, took two years off and returns ring rusty two weight divisions lower at light middleweight. If theres one thing that history tells us about dropping significant weight loss when post prime its that you can suffer humiliating losses (Roy Jones/Ricky Hatton/Oscar De La Hoya/Muhammed Ali).

Terry Norris was a beast at the time (easily one of the better pound for pound guys around then, when his head was on the job!.....which it was for Leonard).

Just imagine if the Hearns that fought Leonard in 1989 had to drop two weight divisions to light middleweight (a weight he hadn't made in over 5 years!) with the last two years completely inactive. I'd wager that Hearns wouldn't last the distance with Norris!

And then after taking another 6!!!!!! years out of the ring when completely shot you blame him for losing to Hector Camacho. God only knows how good Tommy would have looked in 1997 boiled down to middleweight for the first time since 1988 with 6 years out of the ring!!!!

lightsout_finit
02-29-2012, 09:56 AM
I would not call Tommy Hearns underrated..........

TBear
02-29-2012, 07:02 PM
Hearns was amazing! But I guess sometimes new fans might underrate him.

Mintcar923
02-29-2012, 11:59 PM
I agree with alot of what you say............but you ruin an excellent post with an implausibly weak final paragraph.

Leonard finished the 80s as a super middleweight, took two years off and returns ring rusty two weight divisions lower at light middleweight. If theres one thing that history tells us about dropping significant weight loss when post prime its that you can suffer humiliating losses (Roy Jones/Ricky Hatton/Oscar De La Hoya/Muhammed Ali).

Terry Norris was a beast at the time (easily one of the better pound for pound guys around then, when his head was on the job!.....which it was for Leonard).

Just imagine if the Hearns that fought Leonard in 1989 had to drop two weight divisions to light middleweight (a weight he hadn't made in over 5 years!) with the last two years completely inactive. I'd wager that Hearns wouldn't last the distance with Norris!

And then after taking another 6!!!!!! years out of the ring when completely shot you blame him for losing to Hector Camacho. God only knows how good Tommy would have looked in 1997 boiled down to middleweight for the first time since 1988 with 6 years out of the ring!!!!


Perhaps I may have been a bit misunderstood. I suppose I should have been a little more elaborate in my post about Tommy being underrated. What I really meant was that many alleged experts seem as though they rate him somewhere at the bottom of the Fab-Four of the '80's. Some may suggest placing him at 3 or 4.

Although, it is a matter of opinion and many would agree it would be possible for any of them to score a win over the other on any given night.. SRL was a damn great fighter in his prime as were the others. I just say Tommy was the most talented and had the best style IMO. The man was so diverse. I understand what you are saying about Ray's inactivity and I agree it did play a part on him losing the way he did. But, he had no-one to blame but himself. Tommy was just more dedicated thus wanting to stay more active. And unlike some, he never had the reputation for ducking anyone who called him out. I don't say it's not possible he'd have lost to the excellent Terry Norris. We can only assume what would happen. But, I just can't see him losing to a Camacho even if he had 10 years of inactivity!

Ziggy Stardust
03-01-2012, 12:04 AM
Perhaps I may have been a bit misunderstood. I suppose I should have been a little more elaborate in my post about Tommy being underrated. What I really meant was that many alleged experts seem as though they rate him somewhere at the bottom of the Fab-Four of the '80's. Some may suggest placing him at 3 or 4.

Perhaps that's because he got KTFO by the two who are usually at the top of the list? :boxing:

Mintcar923
03-01-2012, 12:20 AM
Perhaps that's because he got KTFO by the two who are usually at the top of the list? :boxing:

Those two fights could have gone either way. And many believe the first Leonard-Hearns was stopped way too soon considering the see-saw match they had been having up to that point. Tommy came very close to stopping Ray in the rematch. Maybe with a different ref such as Richard Steele or whatever, the fight would have been stopped in the 11th with Hearns winning a TKO.

Another point, you really can't judge a boxer on one fight or even two. Example, Bernard Hopkins, Mike Tyson, Marvin Hagler, and many others in the "Great" category had suffered losses to considerablly lesser fighters but that didn't deter their reputation much. And it certainly did not put their rivals on a higher plateau than them in boxing history.

Rockin'
03-01-2012, 12:29 AM
Granted, Hearns wasn't perfect as he lost a couple fights he should have won. He employed the wrong strategy in the Hagler fight.


Hearns' legs were not right in the Hagler fight. If you look his legs looked strangely shakey while rollin' the ring with Hagler. Somebody rubbed Hearns' legs down just minutes before the fight, Steward was said to have wanted blood when he found out.

I got to see him win his lightheavy title against Andries live at the Palace, that was cool.

Thomas Hearns is a Detroit hero
, a super man with some extraordinary skills. I was able to see his earlier bouts on local television and clips on the news being from Detroit.

One of the best jabs through time, a righthand that no man wants to be hit with and a heart that only the Detroit boxing community can raise. More so what kind of heart a Kronk boxing community can raise, in the ring they are viscious. And man I still love watching Tommy lean over and dig that wicked left hook into his opponents ribs. His gracefull use of the ring, Tommy was great!

Nobody is perfect, and Thomas Hearns is no exception. But having said that I must also say that if there was one fighter that I would ever like to be like it would be Thomas Hearns. Scary height, an even scarier right hand, beautiful movement with an awsome jab. I would definately dig that...........Rockin':boxing:

Ziggy Stardust
03-01-2012, 12:37 AM
Those two fights could have gone either way. And many believe the first Leonard-Hearns was stopped way too soon considering the see-saw match they had been having up to that point. Tommy came very close to stopping Ray in the rematch. Maybe with a different ref such as Richard Steele or whatever, the fight would have been stopped in the 11th with Hearns winning a TKO.

Another point, you really can't judge a boxer on one fight or even two. Example, Bernard Hopkins, Mike Tyson, Marvin Hagler, and many others in the "Great" category had suffered losses to considerablly lesser fighters but that didn't deter their reputation much. And it certainly did not put their rivals on a higher plateau than them in boxing history.

There was nothing wrong with the stoppage in the first Leonard fight: Hearns was helpless on the ropes and sponged about 20 unanswered punches. Even with a permissive ref that gets you stopped 99% of the time.

I have yet to see an occasion when a fighter goes 0-2-1 against his two biggest rivals in his prime but gets ranked higher then them p4p unless he's a naturally smaller guy who made his bones in a lower weight class.

This isn't to knock Hearns who was an obviously great fighter.....but there's a reason why Leonard and Hagler get ranked higher historically and that's because he proved to be the lesser great when it mattered: When he faced them.

Poet

Boxing Bob
03-01-2012, 01:18 AM
I always maintain if Tommy would have had a good chin rather than just average, he would be recognized as the best fighter who ever lived

Sugarj
03-01-2012, 05:37 AM
Perhaps I may have been a bit misunderstood. I suppose I should have been a little more elaborate in my post about Tommy being underrated. What I really meant was that many alleged experts seem as though they rate him somewhere at the bottom of the Fab-Four of the '80's. Some may suggest placing him at 3 or 4.

Although, it is a matter of opinion and many would agree it would be possible for any of them to score a win over the other on any given night.. SRL was a damn great fighter in his prime as were the others. I just say Tommy was the most talented and had the best style IMO. The man was so diverse. I understand what you are saying about Ray's inactivity and I agree it did play a part on him losing the way he did. But, he had no-one to blame but himself. Tommy was just more dedicated thus wanting to stay more active. And unlike some, he never had the reputation for ducking anyone who called him out. I don't say it's not possible he'd have lost to the excellent Terry Norris. We can only assume what would happen. But, I just can't see him losing to a Camacho even if he had 10 years of inactivity!


Camacho was still world class in 1997. Hearns wasn't. If Hearns had to boil down to middleweight at that point in his career he'd have been beaten by Camacho too.

But I agree about what you say about Hearns being possibly the most talented of the 4. Its very possible. Sadly, he did have the worst chin of the four which quite honestly did let him down a few times.....and he often fought without respect for the fact that his punch resistance wasn't stellar. His gameplan against Hagler was suicidal. I can't believe Manny Steward was behind that strategy.

With a chin of Hagler's calibur he would have likely decisioned Leonard and possibly even outpointed Marvin himself. Great fighter, I guess you can't have every attribute.

Sugarj
03-01-2012, 05:45 AM
Those two fights could have gone either way. And many believe the first Leonard-Hearns was stopped way too soon considering the see-saw match they had been having up to that point. Tommy came very close to stopping Ray in the rematch. Maybe with a different ref such as Richard Steele or whatever, the fight would have been stopped in the 11th with Hearns winning a TKO.

Another point, you really can't judge a boxer on one fight or even two. Example, Bernard Hopkins, Mike Tyson, Marvin Hagler, and many others in the "Great" category had suffered losses to considerablly lesser fighters but that didn't deter their reputation much. And it certainly did not put their rivals on a higher plateau than them in boxing history.


A ref like Richard Steele might have jumped in awarding Leonard a TKO win in rounds 5 and 12 of the rematch. Even Hearn's fans have to admit that he did look on the brink.

Even after Leonard was dropped with that sickening combination the fight didn't look close to being stopped (granted that many wouldn't even try to rise after those rights). But Leonard wasn't staggering around when the fight resumed.

Oh and see what I've marked in bold. You judged Leonard on Norris and Camacho.

House of Stone
03-01-2012, 06:38 AM
Well as Emanuel Steward once said when talking about fighters hes trained and ATGs etc "nobody and thats NOBODY outboxes Tommy Hearns."

His chin though not diamond, wasn't 'weak' as some people claim, he had massive power and like steward said whatever about fighting toe to toe and gettting dragged into a war (like he did with hagler and at points in leonard I - who he was outboxing early on) when it comes to boxing I can't think of anybody that would be sure to get the better of him.

Sugarj
03-01-2012, 07:12 AM
Well as Emanuel Steward once said when talking about fighters hes trained and ATGs etc "nobody and thats NOBODY outboxes Tommy Hearns."

His chin though not diamond, wasn't 'weak' as some people claim, he had massive power and like steward said whatever about fighting toe to toe and gettting dragged into a war (like he did with hagler and at points in leonard I - who he was outboxing early on) when it comes to boxing I can't think of anybody that would be sure to get the better of him.


Probably right. Especially at welterweight. Robinson and Mayweather would certainly have trouble outboxing prime welterweight Hearns.

Ray Corso
03-01-2012, 12:37 PM
I remember Tommy as a JO in the ABF and he towered over all the kids at 139lbs. He dropped straight right hands behind a very long jab and was extremely difficult to fight. The problem Toomy had as he began to fight good fighters was he could fall into the trap of "fighting" instead of boxing. He also could be bullied into the ropes and knew thats where his height advantage was negated. The other issue was his length of legs and their size, I believe that tall fighters that get hit with real power take longer to recoup then shorter thicker legged fighters. He was very thin and fighting at a weight (147) that simply wasn't enough pounds to be able to handle big shots. Thats what happened when Dundee told Leonard he needed to fight and not box and Tommy fell into the fight mode and went to the ropes and got caught and couldn't recover.
As far as under appreciated I can't recall anyone saying Hearns was over rated he fought hard in all his fights, he came to win and never offered excusses in defeat. He won more than he lost and bagged a few titles and alot of money too!
I believe that Mayweather would have his worst nightmare with Tommy in front of him. He couldn't go to the ropes or counter facing Hearns, he'd have to fight!! That would be fun to see!
Tommy and Leonard should have fought once a year for 5 years and they would be entertaining bouts.
Tommy was tuff to out box because of his size not so much skills. He did fall into traps pretty easily and thats how he was defeated most times. Hagler wasn't gonna box around with a long legged long armed guy who could hurt you with that right hand so he took it to Tommy and Tommy was willing to trade. He lost by being out smarted by a veteran Philly warrior. No shame in it but thats what happened.
Theres alot of better boxers in boxing than Hearns. Tommy didn't have ALL the punches and combinations in his rep. but he did have a good jab and a straight right hand that could say good nite!!! Didn't punch the body really well, couldn't box inside at all (most Kronk guys can't) he had a decent hook but rarely was in position to throw it. I think hes a top twenty Welter and a top one hundred fighter but not an all time great. My opinions go back to the beginning of 1900s and thats alot of fighters to choose from. I personally like Tommy because of his attitude and heart but theres others with better over all skills. Ray.

JAB5239
03-01-2012, 04:43 PM
Tommy didn't have ALL the punches and combinations in his rep. but he did have a good jab and a straight right hand that could say good nite!!! Didn't punch the body really well, couldn't box inside at all (most Kronk guys can't) he had a decent hook but rarely was in position to throw it.

Ray.

Hearns was a vicious body puncher. It wasn't his forte, but he was excellent at it when he wanted to be.

<object width="480" height="360"><param name="movie" value="https://www.youtube.com/v/woWSl5PBVAs?version=3&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="https://www.youtube.com/v/woWSl5PBVAs?version=3&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="480" height="360" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

<object width="480" height="360"><param name="movie" value="https://www.youtube.com/v/e0uhAZeEA54?version=3&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="https://www.youtube.com/v/e0uhAZeEA54?version=3&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="480" height="360" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

BennyST
03-02-2012, 09:35 AM
Didn't punch the body really well, couldn't box inside at all (most Kronk guys can't)

That's an interesting opinion.

Ray Corso
03-02-2012, 09:59 AM
I watched Thomas grow up in boxing my kids fought Kronk kids in national competitions for years. You folks contemplate while I participated I watched the progression of almost all the American boxers that came out of the JO programs and into Open class boxing. I was the state chairman in the JO program and was the team Region one coach that took the region one team to to colo. springs colo. olympic training center.
Someone shows a fight or a few sequences of Tommy punching the body to try and discretit my observations of a fighter that I saw grow up in the sport. Thomas made his mark in the game with his right hand!!! He did turn a hook/upper cut with his left hand very well but he also made some mistakes letting it go to far away from opponents also. It happen to work against Shuller because he stayed in a shell instead of countering with a move or a punch. Anyone could punch the body when its given to you but its not like its a trade mark punch like Thomas throwing jabs to set up his KO right hand.
Its like contradicting people here is used in place of a real fight? Fan frustrations seem to run wild here at times, instead of appreciating some inside info on some of the boxers I watched grow up, and had my kids fight against, plus work in some of their corners through the years some here want to discredit. Its a shame that folks who seem so passionant about the sport use a forum as if its a ring, I grew up enjoying confrontations its a shame when they can't be settled face to face. "it wasn't his forte" hahaha really?
Ray.

BennyST
03-02-2012, 10:12 AM
Wow......ok then.

House of Stone
03-02-2012, 10:23 AM
You folks contemplate while I participated I watched the progression of almost all the American boxers that came out of the JO programs and into Open class boxing. I was the state chairman in the JO program and was the team Region one coach that took the region one team to to colo. s


That's nice, but I don't like when people try to 'pull rank' in these discussions. people can disagree without all this 'My opinion is more valid than yours because I did this that and the other' Now having said that I agree that one of the most annoying trends in this section is the constant nitpicking of minor points, one-up-man-ship, refusal to admit any opinion but their own is correct and constant desire to speak rather than listen (rant over) Anyway I agree with your original point he didn't go to the body as often as some

BennyST
03-02-2012, 11:04 AM
That's nice, but I don't like when people try to 'pull rank' in these discussions. people can disagree without all this 'My opinion is more valid than yours because I did this that and the other' Now having said that I agree that one of the most annoying trends in this section is the constant nitpicking of minor points, one-up-man-ship, refusal to admit any opinion but their own is correct and constant desire to speak rather than listen (rant over) Anyway I agree with your original point he didn't go to the body as often as some

Except that saying Hearns 'didn't punch well to the body' isn't a minor point in a discussion about his skill.

He did sometimes throw his shots too far away, but Mayweather also leaves himself exposed to being countered sometimes....It doesn't mean his defense isn't great. He didn't go to the body as often as 'some' but that 'some' would be guys like Chavez, Duran etc. Tommy's main weapon was his jab, right hand but to say he 'didn't go to the body well' to me is like saying Duran's defense sucked.

It clearly doesn't and is in fact brilliant. His style of fighting meant he was going to get hit more often than a pure counter puncher though, just like Tommy fighting from range most often meant he wasn't going to be going to the body like Lamotta. When he was in range however, he hit the body brutally with incredible results as well as anyone.

UglyPug
03-02-2012, 11:31 AM
Indeed, Hearns is very underrated. . . Pound for pound, the most powerful straight right hand in the history of boxing. . . Random note: Look how my right hand DWARVES Tommy Hearns'?

JAB5239
03-02-2012, 05:27 PM
I watched Thomas grow up in boxing my kids fought Kronk kids in national competitions for years. You folks contemplate while I participated I watched the progression of almost all the American boxers that came out of the JO programs and into Open class boxing. I was the state chairman in the JO program and was the team Region one coach that took the region one team to to colo. springs colo. olympic training center.
Someone shows a fight or a few sequences of Tommy punching the body to try and discretit my observations of a fighter that I saw grow up in the sport. Thomas made his mark in the game with his right hand!!! He did turn a hook/upper cut with his left hand very well but he also made some mistakes letting it go to far away from opponents also. It happen to work against Shuller because he stayed in a shell instead of countering with a move or a punch. Anyone could punch the body when its given to you but its not like its a trade mark punch like Thomas throwing jabs to set up his KO right hand.
Its like contradicting people here is used in place of a real fight? Fan frustrations seem to run wild here at times, instead of appreciating some inside info on some of the boxers I watched grow up, and had my kids fight against, plus work in some of their corners through the years some here want to discredit. Its a shame that folks who seem so passionant about the sport use a forum as if its a ring, I grew up enjoying confrontations its a shame when they can't be settled face to face. "it wasn't his forte" hahaha really?
Ray.

Do us all a favor and quit with your "holier than thou" attitude. You're not the only one who has been involved with the sport (if you even have since Google shows nothing of all this involvement you claim) and its simply ridiculous to claim Hearns was not a good body puncher. I've provided irrefutable evidence that when he wanted to go to the body he was excellent at it. And no, it wasn't his forte. But as you can plainly see in the videos he was a more than capable body puncher. Unless of course you're suggesting the video is doctored or everyone here is blind to something only you can see. :dunno:

And yeah, its a shame confrontations can't be settled face to face. Tough guy. :lol1:

Ray Corso
03-02-2012, 06:30 PM
I was asked about my background a while back so I state it to show that my opinion is based on actual boxing experiences. If you don't like or agree with my opinion just move on! Its a handfull a people here who try to dominate the forum and its the reason why others don't try to participate. So maybe its a few here who need to relax and maybe learn something from some who made a living in the sport for a long time. Its seems their also intimidated, then try to start a confrontation on the net, thats were my face to face comment comes from. My attitude is one of confidence when speaking about boxing and all the components that are important in it. You (jab5293) seem to confuse my character with someone who talks alot of smack, like you! Ray

Barn
03-02-2012, 06:38 PM
Do us all a favor and quit with your "holier than thou" attitude. You're not the only one who has been involved with the sport (if you even have since Google shows nothing of all this involvement you claim) and its simply ridiculous to claim Hearns was not a good body puncher. I've provided irrefutable evidence that when he wanted to go to the body he was excellent at it. And no, it wasn't his forte. But as you can plainly see in the videos he was a more than capable body puncher. Unless of course you're suggesting the video is doctored or everyone here is blind to something only you can see. :dunno:

And yeah, its a shame confrontations can't be settled face to face. Tough guy. :lol1:
Die Anterwood V2.

IronDanHamza
03-02-2012, 07:10 PM
Indeed, Hearns is very underrated. . . Pound for pound, the most powerful straight right hand in the history of boxing. . . Random note: Look how my right hand DWARVES Tommy Hearns'?

:lol1: Got to agree with you it does dwarf Tommy's.

I actually "bumped knuckles" with Tommy Hearns in 2010 when I was in Las Vegas for the Floyd Mayweather-Shane Mosley fight.

My first time ever meeting him and his hands were surprisingly smaller than I expected.

The guy was just casually walking across one of the cross-over's, was pretty shocked when I saw him. I was like; "Tommy Hearns?" (Like I needed to ask! :lol1:) I put out my hand for a handshake and he replied his fist :lol1:

JAB5239
03-02-2012, 08:24 PM
I was asked about my background a while back so I state it to show that my opinion is based on actual boxing experiences. If you don't like or agree with my opinion just move on! Its a handfull a people here who try to dominate the forum and its the reason why others don't try to participate. So maybe its a few here who need to relax and maybe learn something from some who made a living in the sport for a long time. Its seems their also intimidated, then try to start a confrontation on the net, thats were my face to face comment comes from. My attitude is one of confidence when speaking about boxing and all the components that are important in it. You (jab5293) seem to confuse my character with someone who talks alot of smack, like you! Ray

No, you actually seem very insecure frequently touting your so called participation in boxing. Funny nothing about you pops up on the net considering your lengthy career and travels. I wonder why that is? And for someone so new to this forum what would you know about who frequents this section, participates and why? You've deduced this in a mere 2 months? Me thinks you're a former poster who I've banned from here under several other alts but is just dying to come back.

I digress though. In your (ahem) so called "expert opinion" would you care to critique Hearns body punching ability in the 2 videos I have provided and explain to the rest of us exactly how you came to the conclusion Hearns "was not a very good body puncher"? Personally I think your full of crap and will have nothing to offer except more prima-donna posturing of how wise you think you are. Feel free to prove me wrong and dazzle us with you wisdom though.

New England
03-02-2012, 08:39 PM
No, you actually seem very insecure frequently touting your so called participation in boxing. Funny nothing about you pops up on the net considering your lengthy career and travels. I wonder why that is? And for someone so new to this forum what would you know about who frequents this section, participates and why? You've deduced this in a mere 2 months? Me thinks you're a former poster who I've banned from here under several other alts but is just dying to come back.

I digress though. In your (ahem) so called "expert opinion" would you care to critique Hearns body punching ability in the 2 videos I have provided and explain to the rest of us exactly how you came to the conclusion Hearns "was not a very good body puncher"? Personally I think your full of crap and will have nothing to offer except more prima-donna posturing of how wise you think you are. Feel free to prove me wrong and dazzle us with you wisdom though.




lol i thought we were staying away from such petty squabbling in the history section?


personally there's few things i like to see on the internet more than somebody getting put into his place

put him on full blast. sounds like a clown to me.

JAB5239
03-02-2012, 08:56 PM
lol i thought we were staying away from such petty squabbling in the history section?


personally there's few things i like to see on the internet more than somebody getting put into his place

put him on full blast. sounds like a clown to me.

We have plenty of disagreements between all of us but maintain a mutual respect for one another's knowledge for the most part. I simply don't abide people coming in here and talking down to myself or others who proven their knowledge and ability to debate by claiming to be some kind of expert above the rest of us. I have yet to ever hear or read of anyone claiming Hearns "wasn't a very good body puncher". If Mr. Corso is the expert he claims why have we not heard other experts echo his sentiments? Its simply a ridiculous notion, that's why. Fact is Tommy's game wasn't the body attack more times than not. But when he did go after it he was very good at it.

As far as me squabbling .....do as I say, not as I do! ;)

benjispikkie
03-02-2012, 09:01 PM
I do think he was underrated. Of course he is much respected in the boxing world, but I think people who aren't as familiar with boxing, will always put Leonard or Hagler above him. That's just not right and fair, but it is the reality. The real boxing fans will always remeber him as a GREAT boxer, but he should be appreciated more by the common people. We don't live in a fair world, but in my book, he's one of the greatest champions that ever lived. Neh, that's all I got to say about this :headbang:.

Mintcar923
03-02-2012, 09:53 PM
A ref like Richard Steele might have jumped in awarding Leonard a TKO win in rounds 5 and 12 of the rematch. Even Hearn's fans have to admit that he did look on the brink.

Even after Leonard was dropped with that sickening combination the fight didn't look close to being stopped (granted that many wouldn't even try to rise after those rights). But Leonard wasn't staggering around when the fight resumed.

Oh and see what I've marked in bold. You judged Leonard on Norris and Camacho.

"You can't really judge a fighter on one or two.." You judge a fighter on their entire career was what I meant. I did acknowlege SRL as a great fighter in his prime.

Scott9945
03-02-2012, 10:24 PM
I was asked about my background a while back so I state it to show that my opinion is based on actual boxing experiences. If you don't like or agree with my opinion just move on! Its a handfull a people here who try to dominate the forum and its the reason why others don't try to participate. So maybe its a few here who need to relax and maybe learn something from some who made a living in the sport for a long time. Its seems their also intimidated, then try to start a confrontation on the net, thats were my face to face comment comes from. My attitude is one of confidence when speaking about boxing and all the components that are important in it. You (jab5293) seem to confuse my character with someone who talks alot of smack, like you! Ray


I learn plenty here, and so far nothing from you. Quit blowing hot air all the time. You're not nearly as important as you think you are. That must suck. Nobody is intimidated by you so STFU already.

joseph5620
03-02-2012, 11:05 PM
I learn plenty here, and so far nothing from you. Quit blowing hot air all the time. You're not nearly as important as you think you are. That must suck. Nobody is intimidated by you so STFU already.


:lol1::lol1: this is too funny.....

joseph5620
03-02-2012, 11:20 PM
Hearns was a vicious body puncher. It wasn't his forte, but he was excellent at it when he wanted to be.

<object width="480" height="360"><param name="movie" value="https://www.youtube.com/v/woWSl5PBVAs?version=3&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="https://www.youtube.com/v/woWSl5PBVAs?version=3&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="480" height="360" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

<object width="480" height="360"><param name="movie" value="https://www.youtube.com/v/e0uhAZeEA54?version=3&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="https://www.youtube.com/v/e0uhAZeEA54?version=3&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="480" height="360" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

I agree and honestly I've never heard anybody say Hearns didn't punch to the body well. This is a rarely talked about fight for Hearns that was the next fight after Cuevas (Luis primara). Hearns again displayed how deadly he could be with body punches.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/779oevnc3xM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

JAB5239
03-03-2012, 03:09 AM
I agree and honestly I've never heard anybody say Hearns didn't punch to the body well. This is a rarely talked about fight for Hearns that was the next fight after Cuevas (Luis primara). Hearns again displayed how deadly he could be with body punches.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/779oevnc3xM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Very nice. Im oblivious as to how anyone supposedly associated with the sport could reach such an ignorant conclusion.

GJC
03-03-2012, 06:45 AM
Some interesting theories in here. I'd agree with the fact that Hearns punch resistance was down to his legs and he wasn't much good inside. I have the old opinion that you need your legs to absorb a punch but I'm probably in the minority. As for fighting inside he wasn't great but to me so many fighters over the last 30 years neglect inside work. Hearns main problem to me was he bought into the mystical right hand too much he was such a good boxer he didnt need to. As for him lacking skills or not being able to work the body, don't agree with that. Great fighter though, I rate him very highly and I've seen a fair few.

GJC
03-05-2012, 07:22 AM
I was asked about my background a while back so I state it to show that my opinion is based on actual boxing experiences. If you don't like or agree with my opinion just move on! Its a handfull a people here who try to dominate the forum and its the reason why others don't try to participate. So maybe its a few here who need to relax and maybe learn something from some who made a living in the sport for a long time. Its seems their also intimidated, then try to start a confrontation on the net, thats were my face to face comment comes from. My attitude is one of confidence when speaking about boxing and all the components that are important in it. You (jab5293) seem to confuse my character with someone who talks alot of smack, like you! Ray
Ray you are a good poster and are entitled to your opinions as is everyone. We have some great posters on here who are frighteningly young to me, I was watching fights 40 years before some of them were born. Does that give me any greater insight than them? Certainly not, most of them can run rings round me but they give me a hearing and I learn a lot from them, the day you stop learning you might as well stop living. Your experience in the fight game is impressive but there is an old phrase do you have to be a horse to be a good jockey?

rorymac
04-01-2012, 10:53 AM
I'm a younger fan and I rate Hearns very highly. Fantastic puncher, used range well, good on his feet. Tremendous pure boxing skills as well.

SCtrojansbaby
04-01-2012, 11:01 AM
Superior talent but 2 deadly flaws

no chin and no discipline.

rorymac
04-01-2012, 11:10 AM
Superior talent but 2 deadly flaws

no chin and no discipline.
I think Tommy's chin is unfairly slated. Of course he isn't George Chuvalo, but as Rockin said, he had problems with his legs against Hagler. As for his losses to Barkley and Leonard though...

Rockin'
04-01-2012, 11:18 AM
Superior talent but 2 deadly flaws

no chin and no discipline.



The chin part I can understand, but no discipline? I would like to hear your thoughts on that.........Rockin':boxing:

New England
04-01-2012, 12:15 PM
Ray you are a good poster and are entitled to your opinions as is everyone. We have some great posters on here who are frighteningly young to me, I was watching fights 40 years before some of them were born. Does that give me any greater insight than them? Certainly not, most of them can run rings round me but they give me a hearing and I learn a lot from them, the day you stop learning you might as well stop living. Your experience in the fight game is impressive but there is an old phrase do you have to be a horse to be a good jockey?




RIP brother.

Scott9945
04-01-2012, 11:16 PM
RIP brother.

It was totally awesome that you bumped that post.

JAB5239
04-02-2012, 12:33 AM
Superior talent but 2 deadly flaws

no chin and no discipline.

He gets to much flak for his chin. He was stopped by two all-time greats and a HUGE middleweight. What exactly do you mean by he had no discipline?

Mintcar923
04-04-2012, 11:05 PM
Superior talent but 2 deadly flaws

no chin and no discipline.

No disipline?????????? As far as I recall, he was always in shape. Not to mention he had great technique under Manny Steward and won title after title after title in many different weight classes.

No chin??? OK... Tommy didn't have the best chin of all time but his heart more than made up for it. He employed the wrong strategy in the Hagler fight which many experts already know. But then again, that KO may have had to do with him agreeing to have a massage done on his legs before the fight. The 1st Leonard fight may have had to do moreso with his fatigue and inexperience than his ability to take a punch. The first fight with Barkely? Well, it was a very big man and a very lucky punch...Pure and simple!!!

JAB5239
04-05-2012, 02:26 AM
No disipline?????????? As far as I recall, he was always in shape. Not to mention he had great technique under Manny Steward and won title after title after title in many different weight classes.

Yeah, that one caught me by surprise too. Doesn't seem he's willing to explain his claim either. Oh well. :dunno:

Mintcar923
04-06-2012, 11:10 PM
Yeah, that one caught me by surprise too. Doesn't seem he's willing to explain his claim either. Oh well. :dunno:

1980 - Defeated Pipino Cuevas for WBA welterweight title...
1982 - Defeated Wilfred Benetez for WBC light middle...
1986 - Defeated James Shuler for NABF Middleweight...
1987 - Defeated Dennis Andries for WBC light heavy...
1987 - Defeated Juan Roldan for vacant WBC Middleweight...
1991 - Defeated Virgil Hill for WBA light heavyweight...
1994 - Defeated Dan Ward for NABF Cruiser...

There may be a chance I'd missed a couple...

bojangles1987
04-08-2012, 05:36 PM
He gets to much flak for his chin. He was stopped by two all-time greats and a HUGE middleweight. What exactly do you mean by he had no discipline?

Agreed. That myth will only get worse as time passes too.

SCtrojansbaby
04-08-2012, 06:45 PM
No disipline??????????

Hearns just loved to mix it up when ever he got hurt he wanted to come back and hurt you. Hearns just didn't have it in him to jab and hold his way to a decision and thats what made him so exciting but unfortunately it cost him a few big wins.

JAB5239
04-08-2012, 07:23 PM
Hearns just loved to mix it up when ever he got hurt he wanted to come back and hurt you. Hearns just didn't have it in him to jab and hold his way to a decision and thats what made him so exciting but unfortunately it cost him a few big wins.

With all due respect, this is a load of crap. You've tried labelling Hearns whole career based on losses to other all time greats. Fact is given Tommy's ability to put opponents to sleep he fought very disciplined, using his jab and looking for openings, and when he did get hurt he usually tried to hold on.

Barn
04-08-2012, 07:33 PM
I'm half way through my Hearns under-rated chin video. Should be done in a week or two.

New England
04-08-2012, 07:42 PM
I'm half way through my Hearns under-rated chin video. Should be done in a week or two.




i like the concept.

SCtrojansbaby
04-08-2012, 10:39 PM
With all due respect, this is a load of crap. You've tried labelling Hearns whole career based on losses to other all time greats. Fact is given Tommy's ability to put opponents to sleep he fought very disciplined, using his jab and looking for openings, and when he did get hurt he usually tried to hold on.

Show me a fight where Hearns got hurt then pulled off and stayed out side and jabbed/hold the rest of the fight not getting caught up in trading again? Not doing what I just explained for sure cost him both Leonard fights and both Barkley fights.

Also no one is labeling his whole career because he lost to Leonard and Hagler. But to pretend like he didn't have a few really bad flaws is just naive.

IronDanHamza
04-08-2012, 11:09 PM
It was totally awesome that you bumped that post.

Agreed.

That sums up our good friend GJC in a nutshell.

Ziggy Stardust
04-08-2012, 11:28 PM
In his prime Hearns lost only three times: One to an ATG top-3 Welter in Ray Leonard (in which he spent the vast majority of the fight jabbing his way to a big points lead), one out of his ideal weight-class to an ATG top-5 Middleweight (who wouldn't LET Hearns box his way out of trouble), and one out of his ideal weight-class against a pretty big puncher who was really a Light-Heavy fighting at Middle. Exactly which fights did he lose is Hearns supposed to have jabbed his way to victory? When you're facing another ATG like Leonard or Hagler THEY I have a good deal of say over what you can or can't do. I daresay Floyd Mayweather, when facing an opponent of Leonard or Hagler's caliber is NOT going to dictate the fight to them. At very least an ATG fighter of their caliber is going to have at least as much to say over what happens in the fight as he does.

Poet

Redd Foxx
04-08-2012, 11:39 PM
The longer I train, the more I am amazed by Tommy Hearns. I've spent endless hours watching tape, studying how he put that powerful snap not only into his jab and right, but even his left hook. And, the footwork, forget about it. Truly incredible talent and it's no wonder that people who really know boxing have a lot of respect for Hearns.

SCtrojansbaby
04-09-2012, 12:48 AM
In his prime Hearns lost only three times: One to an ATG top-3 Welter in Ray Leonard (in which he spent the vast majority of the fight jabbing his way to a big points lead), one out of his ideal weight-class to an ATG top-5 Middleweight (who wouldn't LET Hearns box his way out of trouble), and one out of his ideal weight-class against a pretty big puncher who was really a Light-Heavy fighting at Middle. Exactly which fights did he lose is Hearns supposed to have jabbed his way to victory? When you're facing another ATG like Leonard or Hagler THEY I have a good deal of say over what you can or can't do. I daresay Floyd Mayweather, when facing an opponent of Leonard or Hagler's caliber is NOT going to dictate the fight to them. At very least an ATG fighter of their caliber is going to have at least as much to say over what happens in the fight as he does.

Poet

He could of jabbed/held in both Leonard fights and in both Barkley but its just in his DNA to fight fire with fire.

JAB5239
04-09-2012, 01:45 AM
Show me a fight where Hearns got hurt then pulled off and stayed out side and jabbed/hold the rest of the fight not getting caught up in trading again? Not doing what I just explained for sure cost him both Leonard fights and both Barkley fights.

The first Leonard fight Hearns tried to hold. See at 1:20 of this vid.

<object width="480" height="360"><param name="movie" value="https://www.youtube.com/v/xUFCoR_ce98?version=3&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="https://www.youtube.com/v/xUFCoR_ce98?version=3&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="480" height="360" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

The first Barkley fight, which could have been waived off after the initial knockdown, Hearns tried to hold. See 8:15 0f this video.

I can tell you about Hearns broken left hand in the second Barkley fight if you'd like me to?


<object width="480" height="360"><param name="movie" value="https://www.youtube.com/v/e0uhAZeEA54?version=3&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="https://www.youtube.com/v/e0uhAZeEA54?version=3&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="480" height="360" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

I can show you round twelve of the second Leonard fight with Hearns trying to clinch if you'd like. A fight in which he was robbed in by the way.

Also no one is labeling his whole career because he lost to Leonard and Hagler. But to pretend like he didn't have a few really bad flaws is just naive.

No, when you don't distinguish a few moments from an entire career you leave the door open for things to be interpreted the way they where not only by myself, but others as well. And to pretend a fighter has "really bad flaws" without taking who said fighter was in the ring with is just naive in my opinion.

SCtrojansbaby
04-09-2012, 05:12 AM
I am not talking about holding once or twice I am talking about holding/jabbing from the outside for the duration of the fight. If you watch the videos you posted you'll see Hearns tries and holds a few times but then get caught in a fire fight again soon after.

Also another example is the 12th round of Leonard Hearns 2 where Hearns does a very good job of holding and moving/jabbing in the 1st minute of the round but once Leonard gets him with one big shot he doesn't stay with it

Notice at about 1:02 in the video(not the round) Hearns gets hit with a big right hand Leonard falls in and Hearns pushes off... Why push off why not wrap your arms around Leonard and let the ref separate you?

Similar mistakes are made throughout the round where Hearns lets go off the clinch just because the ref told him to, when he should of made the ref separate and get in between so you have space to move. Example at about 1:24 in the video Hearns clinches and leans on him(RIGHT) then the ref tells him to work your way out and Hearns lets go(WRONG) and Leonard is immediately in range and hits him with 4 left hands in a row and Hearns backs up in to the corner and holds and lets the ref separate(RIGHT) but instead of using that opportunity to move to his left and jab he just stays in the corner(WRONG) and lets Leonard tee off on him for the next TWENTY FIVE SECONDS before he holds again

these are the mistakes/warrior instincts that cost him so much.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/ATnG3nRDLms" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Also I know Hearns was fighting with 1 hand most of the 2nd Barkley fight, just means he should of held/circled more often

and I will say it again Hearns is a clear ATG he just had some deadly flaws that caused him to be very susceptible to certain styles.

beckya
04-09-2012, 08:54 AM
I think it was the losses to Hagler a Ray that took away his status a bit. But he brought the fight in no matter who he was fighting.

JAB5239
04-09-2012, 12:15 PM
I am not talking about holding once or twice I am talking about holding/jabbing from the outside for the duration of the fight. If you watch the videos you posted you'll see Hearns tries and holds a few times but then get caught in a fire fight again soon after.

Also another example is the 12th round of Leonard Hearns 2 where Hearns does a very good job of holding and moving/jabbing in the 1st minute of the round but once Leonard gets him with one big shot he doesn't stay with it

Notice at about 1:02 in the video(not the round) Hearns gets hit with a big right hand Leonard falls in and Hearns pushes off... Why push off why not wrap your arms around Leonard and let the ref separate you?

Similar mistakes are made throughout the round where Hearns lets go off the clinch just because the ref told him to, when he should of made the ref separate and get in between so you have space to move. Example at about 1:24 in the video Hearns clinches and leans on him(RIGHT) then the ref tells him to work your way out and Hearns lets go(WRONG) and Leonard is immediately in range and hits him with 4 left hands in a row and Hearns backs up in to the corner and holds and lets the ref separate(RIGHT) but instead of using that opportunity to move to his left and jab he just stays in the corner(WRONG) and lets Leonard tee off on him for the next TWENTY FIVE SECONDS before he holds again

these are the mistakes/warrior instincts that cost him so much.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/ATnG3nRDLms" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Also I know Hearns was fighting with 1 hand most of the 2nd Barkley fight, just means he should of held/circled more often

and I will say it again Hearns is a clear ATG he just had some deadly flaws that caused him to be very susceptible to certain styles.

So you think Hearns should fight like Wlad every time he gets hit? I've shown he held at times when he needed to, but you don't seem to understand the other fighter (especially another ATG) has a say in how a fight is dictated. To call these things "deadly flaws" is a pure exaggeration since it rarely occurred in his career. And to come off like you know how he should have fought better than his trainer, who catered to his strengths is disingenuous and comical in my opinion.

THE REED™
04-09-2012, 12:18 PM
I don't think he's underrated at all?

greynotsoold
04-09-2012, 03:08 PM
When the first Hearns/Barkley fight happened, and this is a true story, I cleaned up because I picked Barkley and the 3rd round. My feeling was that because Barkley was easy to hit, Hearns would stand and fight with him and that Barkley could take Tommy's punches longer than Hearns could take his.
I hadn't seen that fight since then, until I watched it a minute ago, where it was posted above and some things I noticed. One, that fight wasn't as one-sided as it is typically portrayed. Barkley is losing and bleeding but he is landind good punches all along. Two, about halfway through the second round Barkley lands some heavy body punches and Tommy's legs seem to be a little funny thereafter. Third, watch Tommy in the last half minute before he goes down. He's all spraddle legged trying to set himself for the left hook to the body, and his legs are practically gone by the time the right hand clips him and knocks him down.
Tommy Hearns, in my opinion, was a good fighter, always in shape and with a left jab that could control a fight and a right hand that was very potent. He wasn't a great fighter. Watch his fight with DeWitt; his legs abandon him after a 7th round body shot. Watch the Olijade fight; Tommy has him ready to go in the 9th catches a left hook from a guy out on his feet and his legs go. If Olijade had been alert enough to see it, he'd have won that fight because Tommy never recovered.

SCtrojansbaby
04-09-2012, 08:03 PM
So you think Hearns should fight like Wlad every time he gets hit? I've shown he held at times when he needed to, but you don't seem to understand the other fighter (especially another ATG) has a say in how a fight is dictated. To call these things "deadly flaws" is a pure exaggeration since it rarely occurred in his career. And to come off like you know how he should have fought better than his trainer, who catered to his strengths is disingenuous and comical in my opinion.

Not so much like Wlad more like Haye during the Valuev fight or Andre Dirrell vs everybody constant movement but add the jab and hold when he gets inside the jab.

In only 1 of the 4 fights I am talking about was he really fighting an ATG level opponent and that was the first Leonard fight and if you want to argue that Leonard was just better on that night and it wasn't the flaws I can buy that. So lets focus on 3 fights Barkley 1, Barkley 2 and Leonard 2 correct me if I am wrong those were all fights Hearns was heavily favored in. Hearns warrior instincts is what did him in he had the ability to dictate those fights(yes even with 1 hand against Barkley that's still a fight Hearns should have dictated)

P.S Didn't Barkley break his hand in that fight also?

Mintcar923
04-09-2012, 09:19 PM
Not so much like Wlad more like Haye during the Valuev fight or Andre Dirrell vs everybody constant movement but add the jab and hold when he gets inside the jab.

In only 1 of the 4 fights I am talking about was he really fighting an ATG level opponent and that was the first Leonard fight and if you want to argue that Leonard was just better on that night and it wasn't the flaws I can buy that. So lets focus on 3 fights Barkley 1, Barkley 2 and Leonard 2 correct me if I am wrong those were all fights Hearns was heavily favored in. Hearns warrior instincts is what did him in he had the ability to dictate those fights(yes even with 1 hand against Barkley that's still a fight Hearns should have dictated)

P.S Didn't Barkley break his hand in that fight also?

Hearns was not favored in the 2nd Leonard fight. If you guys really wannna get that technical and say that an ATG was not on an ATG level on a particular night?! The Fab Four(Leonard, Hearns, Hagler, and Duran) were not exactly old geezers when they fought each other between '80-'90. I guess we all will have our opinion on which fighter was the best. It is possible that each fight between them could have gone a different way depending on the night. But, IMO Hearns was the most naturally gifted of the four...

SCtrojansbaby
04-10-2012, 01:15 AM
Hearns was not favored in the 2nd Leonard fight.

You sure?

JAB5239
04-10-2012, 02:07 AM
Not so much like Wlad more like Haye during the Valuev fight or Andre Dirrell vs everybody constant movement but add the jab and hold when he gets inside the jab.

What you're not understanding my friend is that altering his style to do that takes away from Hearns natural strengths. His speed, power and height almost always allowed him to dictated a fight. If he decides to hold when he gets inside he can't rip those fantastic body shots which brought an opponents defense down. I think its more a credit to those who wouldn't let him dictate the fight than a discredit to Tommy and any minor flaws he may have had when losing. His style was perfect for him and in my opinion would be hell for any welterweight in history.

In only 1 of the 4 fights I am talking about was he really fighting an ATG level opponent and that was the first Leonard fight and if you want to argue that Leonard was just better on that night and it wasn't the flaws I can buy that. So lets focus on 3 fights Barkley 1, Barkley 2 and Leonard 2 correct me if I am wrong those were all fights Hearns was heavily favored in. Hearns warrior instincts is what did him in he had the ability to dictate those fights(yes even with 1 hand against Barkley that's still a fight Hearns should have dictated)

Leonard was favored in their second meeting. Took a little digging, but this is all I could find about that.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1989-06-11/sports/8906110227_1_angelo-dundee-sugar-ray-leonard-bout

P.S Didn't Barkley break his hand in that fight also?

I honestly don't remember but I haven't found any mention of it. That of course doesn't mean it didn't happen. :dunno:

SCtrojansbaby
04-10-2012, 03:16 AM
You can have both the amazing exciting style that made his fights so exciting & took advantage of all the physical gifts while still having the discipline to know when to "survive" rather than always fight back. But no fighter is perfect and I don't expect Hearns to be. Its just naive to say that his "fight fire with fire" instincts didn't cost him at least 3 fights and makes him very susceptible to certain styles(great chin, good power)

JAB5239
04-10-2012, 03:26 AM
You can have both the amazing exciting style that made his fights so exciting & took advantage of all the physical gifts while still having the discipline to know when to "survive" rather than always fight back. But no fighter is perfect and I don't expect Hearns to be. Its just naive to say that his "fight fire with fire" instincts didn't cost him at least 3 fights and makes him very susceptible to certain styles(great chin, good power)

(Shaking my head) I've shown proof Hearns didn't always fight "fire with fire". And its obvious Hearns had a knack to survive or he would have been stopped more than 3 times in 67 fights...two of those times to a top 5 all time welter and a top 5 all time middleweight.

SCtrojansbaby
04-10-2012, 04:27 AM
(Shaking my head) I've shown proof Hearns didn't always fight "fire with fire". And its obvious Hearns had a knack to survive or he would have been stopped more than 3 times in 67 fights...two of those times to a top 5 all time welter and a top 5 all time middleweight.

Yeah you showed proof of a few moments and I acknowledged those moments doesn't change anything I have posted. Just because he wasn't stopped doesn't mean he had a knack for surviving case in point being the 12th round of the 2nd Leonard fight. He didn't get KO'd buthim wanting to fight back in that round rather than survive lost him the W

JAB5239
04-10-2012, 07:34 AM
Yeah you showed proof of a few moments and I acknowledged those moments doesn't change anything I have posted. Just because he wasn't stopped doesn't mean he had a knack for surviving case in point being the 12th round of the 2nd Leonard fight. He didn't get KO'd buthim wanting to fight back in that round rather than survive lost him the W

No, a crappy decision lost him the W. And you "case in point" is totally unvalidated since Hearns DID survive the 12th round.

Rockin'
04-10-2012, 07:59 AM
I watched Thomas grow up in boxing my kids fought Kronk kids in national competitions for years. You folks contemplate while I participated I watched the progression of almost all the American boxers that came out of the JO programs and into Open class boxing. I was the state chairman in the JO program and was the team Region one coach that took the region one team to to colo. springs colo. olympic training center.
Someone shows a fight or a few sequences of Tommy punching the body to try and discretit my observations of a fighter that I saw grow up in the sport. Thomas made his mark in the game with his right hand!!! He did turn a hook/upper cut with his left hand very well but he also made some mistakes letting it go to far away from opponents also. It happen to work against Shuller because he stayed in a shell instead of countering with a move or a punch. Anyone could punch the body when its given to you but its not like its a trade mark punch like Thomas throwing jabs to set up his KO right hand.
Its like contradicting people here is used in place of a real fight? Fan frustrations seem to run wild here at times, instead of appreciating some inside info on some of the boxers I watched grow up, and had my kids fight against, plus work in some of their corners through the years some here want to discredit. Its a shame that folks who seem so passionant about the sport use a forum as if its a ring, I grew up enjoying confrontations its a shame when they can't be settled face to face. "it wasn't his forte" hahaha really?
Ray.

What gym were you fighting out of? I was out of Livonia and Galaxy.

lol, real experience and seeing it with your own eyes means little to this forum. Who'd you ever own, pawn or belittle.... that's what counts.

I wasn't watching Hearns from his younger years but when he leaned over after that right hand to deliver that left hook to the body, its a thing of pain and a thing of beauty. I grew up boxing against the Kronk guys, I believe that I fought 3 or 4. Oba could work the body nice. Anthony Jones could tear your body up. Marlon Thomas dropped that left hook to the body in a picturesque type fashion. I remember hearing the same saying that the Kronk boys don't work the body while growing up around and in the ring. That theory always held water until you fight a Kronk fighter, they were well trained and viscious. I can tell you that I certainly remember the talk but just about every Kronk fighter that I ever threw with could touch the body well.........Rockin':boxing:

Axlsmith
04-10-2012, 03:03 PM
I would agree to some degree Hearns is underrated.To many casual boxing fans who have seen a couple of his fights he is the guy who gave a good showing against Leonard and Hagler.It all depends who you talk to.Most any big boxing fan is of the opinion Hearns is an all time great

SCtrojansbaby
04-11-2012, 12:37 AM
No, a crappy decision lost him the W. And you "case in point" is totally unvalidated since Hearns DID survive the 12th round.

One judge(the one who called it a draw) saw the 12th as a 10-8 round obviously that point being the deciding point in the fight. I think its safe to say that had Hearns done what I have already explained(move/hold etc) that wouldn't have been a 10-8 round and Hearns would of won the fight.

JAB5239
04-11-2012, 01:11 AM
One judge(the one who called it a draw) saw the 12th as a 10-8 round obviously that point being the deciding point in the fight. I think its safe to say that had Hearns done what I have already explained(move/hold etc) that wouldn't have been a 10-8 round and Hearns would of won the fight.

You're using one instance that still doesn't prove he was "undisciplined" with "flawes". No fighter is perfect, but you're failing to take onto consideration that the other fighter has a say in how he reacts too.

SCtrojansbaby
04-11-2012, 02:04 AM
You're using one instance that still doesn't prove he was "undisciplined" with "flawes". \
I can point out similar moments in Leonard 1, and both Barkley fights that cost him those fights
No fighter is perfect, but you're failing to take onto consideration that the other fighter has a say in how he reacts too.
As I said already I could buy Leonard just being better in the first fight. The other three were lost/not won because of Hearns deadly flaw of wanting to fight back and not knowing how to "survive".

JAB5239
04-11-2012, 02:33 AM
I can point out similar moments in Leonard 1, and both Barkley fights that cost him those fights

You're wrong again. The first Barkley fight could have been stopped after the initial knockdown...Hearns was finished. In the second fight Hearns DID survive the 4th round knockdown. You're trying to say Hearns would have been better off changing his style to suit your agenda. You will have to pardon me, but Manny Steward obviously disagreed with you. With all due respect, I'll take his boxing knowledge of how Hearns should of and did fight over yours.

As I said already I could buy Leonard just being better in the first fight. The other three were lost/not won because of Hearns deadly flaw of wanting to fight back and not knowing how to "survive".


And as I've pointed out more than once Hearns DID survive 2 of those 3 encounters and was robbed in one of them. In top of that you're still not addressing the point that the other fighter has a say in how his opponent is going to react...especially when its a fighter like Ray Leonard we're talking about.

SCtrojansbaby
04-11-2012, 04:04 AM
Damn how many times do I have tell you, surviving doesn't just mean finish the fight or the round.

This is going no where. What you're saying doesn't even contradict my point which is, Hearns fighting instinct/not knowing how to survive is a MAJOR flaw and lost him at least 3 of the 4 fights that I highlighted. Why can't you just admit

JAB5239
04-11-2012, 10:53 AM
Damn how many times do I have tell you, surviving doesn't just mean finish the fight or the round.

This is going no where. What you're saying doesn't even contradict my point which is, Hearns fighting instinct/not knowing how to survive is a MAJOR flaw and lost him at least 3 of the 4 fights that I highlighted. Why can't you just admit

I've already contradicted your point and shown you to be wrong, and you still haven't broached the point that the other fighter has a say in how Hearns reacts. If Hearns had a MAJOR FLAW don't you think Manny would have done something to correct it? Basicly you're trying to tell us you know more about training Hearns and his strength and weaknesses than Manny. That to me is comical.

THE REED™
04-11-2012, 10:58 AM
Aye, Jab... bout time you represent a historical fighter in your avi? The whole mock the Klitschkos thing is about a wrap... aye?

THE REED™
04-11-2012, 11:04 AM
P.s. With love :kiss:

THE REED™
04-11-2012, 11:04 AM
I don't get how Hearns is underrated though... everytime I see him talked about he is generally rated very highly by everyone..

JAB5239
04-11-2012, 12:20 PM
Aye, Jab... bout time you represent a historical fighter in your avi? The whole mock the Klitschkos thing is about a wrap... aye?

If I change it to anything it will be another Dallas Cowboys logo, as that is what I had for 10 years before someone changed it on me.

It has run its course though. You don't think maybe I should just change his dress? ;)

THE REED™
04-11-2012, 12:40 PM
:lol1: I'd say go with the Cowboys..

JAB5239
04-11-2012, 01:02 PM
:lol1: I'd say go with the Cowboys..

Lol fair enough. I'll get around to changing it sooner or later. :fing02:

THE REED™
04-11-2012, 01:07 PM
Roy is also a fine choice.

Fighter of the 90's, history at it's greatest moment.

Barn
04-11-2012, 03:12 PM
Lol fair enough. I'll get around to changing it sooner or later. :fing02:
Antonio Tarver is also a fine choice.

Destroyed the fighter of the 90's, history at it's greatest moment.

THE REED™
04-11-2012, 03:12 PM
Antonio Tarver is also a fine choice.

Destroyed the fighter of the 90's, history at it's greatest moment.

Enjoy your ban. :wave:

Ziggy Stardust
04-11-2012, 03:15 PM
Antonio Tarver is also a fine choice.

Destroyed the fighter of the 90's, history at it's greatest moment.

Enjoy your ban. :wave:

PMSL :hahahaha9:

THE REED™
04-11-2012, 03:16 PM
Poet... your Gretsky Avi... did you ever catch on?

Ziggy Stardust
04-11-2012, 03:20 PM
Poet... your Gretsky Avi... did you ever catch on?

Eh, I changed it to David Bowie for the time being. I change my avatars like I change the bedsheets. I'll put Gretzky back up at some point but I think my next change will be to Joe Louis again. I got about five or six different pics in the rotation :cool9:

Poet

Barn
04-11-2012, 03:21 PM
Enjoy your ban. :wave:
;)


http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k230/huggybare24/u.jpg


Not sure a ban would hurt me more than that left hook hurt you.

THE REED™
04-11-2012, 03:22 PM
No no Poet......

The Gretzky Avi you had..... did you ever REALLLLLLY look at it the past 2 months you had it up?

;)

THE REED™
04-11-2012, 03:24 PM
Hey look... Barburner is holding my ****.

Barn
04-11-2012, 03:26 PM
Hey look... Barburner is holding my ****.
And Roy's now sucking Lebedev's fist.

THE REED™
04-11-2012, 03:27 PM
Don't make me lock it. :nonono:

Barn
04-11-2012, 03:29 PM
Don't make me lock it.
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k230/huggybare24/u.jpg
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k230/huggybare24/u.jpg
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k230/huggybare24/u.jpg

:luvbed:

JAB5239
04-11-2012, 03:30 PM
Enjoy your ban. :wave:

Lol, I saw that one coming! :lol1:

Barn
04-11-2012, 03:31 PM
http://i42.tinypic.com/33o5j6d.jpg
http://i42.tinypic.com/33o5j6d.jpg
http://i42.tinypic.com/33o5j6d.jpg

:luvbed:

THE REED™
04-11-2012, 03:31 PM
I think Poet signed off.

THis was his Avi for the last two months....

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/reedickyaluss/poet_roy.jpg

Read closely.

:lol1:

He had no idea.

Barn
04-11-2012, 03:32 PM
I think Poet signed off.

THis was his Avi for the last two months....

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/reedickyaluss/poet_roy.jpg

Read closely.

:lol1:

He had no idea.
Poet appears offline, you might see through that.

Haha, didn't even notice that.

JAB5239
04-11-2012, 03:33 PM
I think Poet signed off.

THis was his Avi for the last two months....

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/reedickyaluss/poet_roy.jpg

Read closely.

:lol1:

He had no idea.

Lol, subliminal admiration!

Barn
04-11-2012, 03:35 PM
<<<<<<<<:lol1:

THE REED™
04-11-2012, 03:38 PM
:lol1:....... :kiss:

Barn
04-11-2012, 03:42 PM
:lol1:....... :kiss:
Edited it a little bit.

Ziggy Stardust
04-11-2012, 03:43 PM
I think Poet signed off.

THis was his Avi for the last two months....

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/reedickyaluss/poet_roy.jpg

Read closely.

:lol1:

He had no idea.

Oh yeah, THAT.....It's a quirk of the resize :hahahaha9: I remember at the time I thought " Oh HELL, Reed will LOVE this" :hahahaha9:

The original says "The Great One" lol.....

Poet

THE REED™
04-11-2012, 03:43 PM
Nah bro..... it wasn't the "resize" :lol1:

THE REED™
04-11-2012, 03:44 PM
lol barnburner...

Ziggy Stardust
04-11-2012, 03:49 PM
Nah bro..... it wasn't the "resize" :lol1:

LOL if I could find the original in Google Images I'd repost it :chuckle9:

Poet

THE REED™
04-11-2012, 03:50 PM
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/reedickyaluss/poet.jpg

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/reedickyaluss/poet_roy.jpg

Ziggy Stardust
04-11-2012, 03:53 PM
http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/reedickyaluss/poet.jpg

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff419/reedickyaluss/poet_roy.jpg

^^^^^ Bingo!

THE REED™
04-11-2012, 03:54 PM
Why do I feel like you still don't get it?!

Ziggy Stardust
04-11-2012, 03:56 PM
Why do I feel like you still don't get it?!

"The Great Roy"

THE REED™
04-11-2012, 03:57 PM
No ... that I did it :lol1:

It wasn't a resize issue.

Ziggy Stardust
04-11-2012, 03:59 PM
No ... that I did it :lol1:

It wasn't a resize issue.

You did it? HAHAHAHAHA!

Not bad my man! Not bad!

Poet

THE REED™
04-11-2012, 04:02 PM
You did it? HAHAHAHAHA!

Not bad my man! Not bad!

Poet

Like 2 months ago :lol1:

I used to crack up everytime you'd post... reppin Roy and you never knew it.

Ziggy Stardust
04-11-2012, 04:03 PM
Like 2 months ago :lol1:

I used to crack up everytime you'd post... reppin Roy and you never knew it.

Oh I saw it almost immediately.....I just always figured it was a sizing issue. It never occurred to me that you had doctored it :hahahaha9:

Poet

THE REED™
04-11-2012, 04:04 PM
haha! :lol1:

elfag
04-12-2012, 08:31 PM
Hes one of my favorite fighters. Hes generally rated pretty highly though overall. Some aspects of him get underrated. His chin issues get exaggerated I think when people comparing him head to head against other guys as if he will always be stopped when thats no guarantee.

Also have heard some strange comments now and then but from obvious noobs who never watched him fight. Things like him being slow, which is ridiculous as he was very fast and people under stating his boxing and jab.

Mintcar923
04-13-2012, 01:51 AM
Hes one of my favorite fighters. Hes generally rated pretty highly though overall. Some aspects of him get underrated. His chin issues get exaggerated I think when people comparing him head to head against other guys as if he will always be stopped when thats no guarantee.

Also have heard some strange comments now and then but from obvious noobs who never watched him fight. Things like him being slow, which is ridiculous as he was very fast and people under stating his boxing and jab.

I suppose some may under-rate him a bit. But I'd say the real boxing purists respect him to the fullest degree. At the very least he deserves to be up there with the very best of his era and I'd have to say of all time. If you look at the majority of his fights and especially with the other great fighters he had fought his performances were extremely impressive.

Even if you look at his most famous loss which was the one with Hagler, he was immensely dynamic. You all saw the bout with Duran in which he had destroyed him in two rounds. And while that may not be the best version of Duran we had ever seen he was victorious in a big way. A lot of experts do believe he had avenged the 1st loss to Leonard by gaining the upper hand in the rematch. Although, it was scored a draw almost nobody believes it was! I'd have to say as far as Iran Barkely is concerned he just had Tommy's number. But, if you think about it there almost always is a fighter in every ATG's career that for some reason has their number. And, they don't necessarily have to be a boxing great per se.

Sorry guys, I don't see a very weak chin on Tommy. Anyone can KO anyone if they get hit the right way. Tommy's magnificent heart more than makes up to his slightly flawed chin.