View Full Version : Robbery!!


Dempsey 1919
11-25-2005, 12:54 AM
if you watched classic ringside: bert suger's top ten heavyweights, you have just witnessed the biggest robbery in the history of boxing! why, do you ask? well, here's the list.

10. larry holmes
9. joe frazier
8. george foreman
7. ezzard charles
6. rocky marciano
5. gene tunney
4. jack johnson
3. jack dempsey
2. muhammad ali
1. joe louis

they actually put thee greatest at #2! bert sugar is the closest thing to john dilinger that i know, thanks to this list. this is an outrage! ali is the greatest, was the greatest, and always be the greatest! joe louis would get destroyed by ali, even sugar admitted this, but the criteria he judged this on was the biggest bull i ever heard. i'm furious! aren't you?

http://www.muhammad-ali-sumo.de/excerpt_goat_02.jpg

random guy
11-25-2005, 01:06 AM
I'm going to have to agree with bert on this one. just because he says he's the best doesnt make it true.

Dempsey 1919
11-25-2005, 01:24 AM
I'm going to have to agree with bert on this one. just because he says he's the best doesnt make it true.

you want to hear the criterion that he used? he judged it on who had the bigger accomplishments! what kind of logic is that. because of extenuating circumstances ali was not allowed to accomplish more than louis, so that doesn't mean louis is better. and why was tunney on the list? he accomplished nothing, except the he beat a washed up dempsey and robbed dempsey the second time, had one title defense and retired, big friggin deal! in that case, jess willard did no worse than he did. or buster douglass, or jimmy ellis, or primo carnera, or jack sharkey, or tommy burns, or max schmeling, or jersey joe walcott, or even someone like trevor berbick! someone like mike tyson deserved to be on the list more than tunney or charles or marciano! sonny liston was robbed of being on this list. and if tunney was on here, then floyd patterson should have been on! this is a bogus list.

Rockin1@sisters
11-25-2005, 01:26 AM
I have no problem with Louis being #1. He was a huge part of americas moral strength during world war II. He did have the most title defenses of any heavyweight champion and besides Ray Robinson, was boxing well ahead of his time. Joe Louis, as opposed to Muhammad Ali, brought the blacks and whites together where as Ali was a seperatist. Louis is fine with me.

Rockin' :boxing:

Dempsey 1919
11-25-2005, 01:28 AM
I have no problem with Louis being #1. He was a huge part of americas moral strength during world war II. He did have the most title defenses of any heavyweight champion and besides Ray Robinson, was boxing well ahead of his time. Joe Louis, as opposed to Muhammad Ali, brought the blacks and whites together where as Ali was a seperatist. Louis is fine with me.

Rockin' :boxing:

ok, now what does that have to do with boxing? louis was beloved. big deal! that doesn't mean he was a better boxer than ali.

Rockin1@sisters
11-25-2005, 01:43 AM
Boxers are written in the history books for more than their boxing ability.

I still would go with Louis over Ali. If a man could box, as could Louis, Ali was not as good. Louis power was superior to Alis as well. While Ali was more flashy in the ring, I believe that Louis was more technically sound. Aswell, I believe Louis' jab to be superior to Ali. But hey, thats just my opinion.

Rockin' :boxing:

Dempsey 1919
11-25-2005, 02:18 AM
Boxers are written in the history books for more than their boxing ability.

I still would go with Louis over Ali. If a man could box, as could Louis, Ali was not as good. Louis power was superior to Alis as well. While Ali was more flashy in the ring, I believe that Louis was more technically sound. Aswell, I believe Louis' jab to be superior to Ali. But hey, thats just my opinion.

Rockin' :boxing:

that is the biggest piece of crap i ever heard. first of all if a fighter is better than another, than he should be higher on an all-time list, no matter what either did outside of the ring.

ali was not as good? the only way for louis to use flurries on ali is if ali got close enough. watch louis fight, he couldn't throw flurries at guys far away from him, and he always had trouble with fast movers, watch both billy conn fights. ali would never dare be anywhere near louis' range, he would stay away and use his jab.

louis' jab superior to ali's? don't make me laugh! just because it was harder doesn't mean it was better, 'cause that's about all it was, harder. ali's was faster, and he has the reach advantage, which means he can hit louis with his, but louis wouldn't be close enough to land his, while their standing at the same distance! ali is physically stronger than louis, and is taller and bigger, and faster, and better! ali also has a superior chin than louis, so if by some lucky chance ali gets hit by louis, it wouldn't bother him. he took frazier's best, and liston's best, and shavers' best, and lyle's best, and foreman's best, and norton's best, and bonavena's best, so he could definetely take louis' punches well, if he got hit by them. louis on the other hand has a weak chin. proof is the fact that he was floored by billy conn in his prime. so i'm sure ali punches hard than a light heavyweight, so if conn could knock louis down, then muhammad would ko him, cause he would land so many punches.

random guy
11-25-2005, 02:21 AM
ali was something new something crazy he is known more for his mouth and crazy stunts and being a black muslim than anything else. joe louis is known for his fighting along with other things that are not so great(bum of the mounth club).

Skydog
11-25-2005, 02:22 AM
I was just furious that Charles and Tunney were in the top 10. I don't mind that Louis was ahead of Ali, hell, I made 5 bucks off my dad cause I said that Ali would be #2.

random guy
11-25-2005, 02:24 AM
and why put your know how of boxing vs bert sugar. the man knows almost everything he knows fights down the round what minute and what second it happend in.

Rockin1@sisters
11-25-2005, 03:07 AM
Have we the proverbial Ali Nuthugger here?

One thing with the jab. Yes louis' jab was harder and Alis was faster. I agree with that. But I would much rather fight a guy with a faster jab rather than a GOOD solid jab any day. Ali just flicked his out all of the time, basic arm punches.

Remember that most people in society normally choose the greatest fighter of their time to idolize and believe to be invincible. I assume that you grew up in Alis time?

He was good but so was Louis.

As far as my words being a piece of crap, what makes you the authority over myself or a known boxing historian like Bert Sugars. Is it days and weeks or even years of research. Is it years of actual boxing experience throwing and excepting blows while perfecting your trade. Is it just that everybody who may have a different opinion than yours is actually inferior. Please, let me know how you attained such greatness.

Rockin' :boxing:

MickyHatton
11-25-2005, 03:30 AM
At the end of the day it comes down to opinions!

Louis and Ali without doubt were 'great' and the margin between their fighting skills for me is minimal, but Ali was 'great' in and out of the ring simply becuase he transended the sport and made boxing a limelight sport.
Boxing then was regarded as corrupt at every level and barbaric and brutal, boxers were portrayed as thoughtless idiots who had no other skills other than those they showed whilst in the ring.
Ali changed that, he brought intelligence and charisma and indulged the media with the same enthusiasm that he indulged his opponents.
Louis played his part also being a black champion in his era did not bring you the same 'celebrity' as a white champion but Louis maintained dignity throughout.
Ali however took this to another level, he was great enough to stand up for his rights (right or wrong) and great enough to come through the oppression and discrimination to stand tall.
Thats why I think he was the 'Greatest'

hellfire508
11-25-2005, 03:36 AM
I am a huge Ali fan. But Louis at 1 is no problem - as long as Ali is number 2. I have Ali at 1.

Ali and Louis MUST be 1 and 2 on everyone's list. Any other fighter in those spots - and you are wrong. :D

KingAbdullah
11-25-2005, 10:25 AM
You should see Nat Fleisher's list from 1963. he revised it in 1971 but made no changes. he was totally unswayed by Frazier-Ali 1 fight.

here's his list

Johnson
Jeffries
Fitzsimmons
Dempsey
Corbett
Louis
Langford
Tunney
Schmeling
Marciano

Frazier was the best heavyweight in the world but nowhere in sight.

i can't tell much from those old films but i would take some of those out of there. Schmeling really wasn't much. Not very athletic, no speed, methodical, ponderous.Typical white athlete. I would easily put Marciano above Max. He didn't do too good in his rematch with Louis.

KingAbdullah
11-25-2005, 10:32 AM
Boxers are written in the history books for more than their boxing ability.

I still would go with Louis over Ali. If a man could box, as could Louis, Ali was not as good. Louis power was superior to Alis as well. While Ali was more flashy in the ring, I believe that Louis was more technically sound. Aswell, I believe Louis' jab to be superior to Ali. But hey, thats just my opinion.

Rockin' :boxing:

I got to say I agree. I've seen fighters that accomplished alot in their careers but weren't all that. look at Orlando Canizles who made the record for title defenses at 118. he was no great fighter. Likewise for Manual Ortiz and Eusebio Pedroza at 126. The man had a great chin but he lost to BT in 85 and Lockridge twice. he did not atcually make 19 defenses bu they still say he did. he did not.

I judge on ability. the night Douglas beat Tyson he would defeat the likes of Ali and mechanical Louis. Probably too fast for anyone except for Bowe.

salsanchezfan
11-25-2005, 11:04 AM
Sugar's list doesn't surprise me, and through the years, I've decided to take whatever he writes with a grain of salt. In any discussion of great fighters, he'll never pass up a chance to verbally fellate the Dempseys, Tunneys, and any other fighter connected to the so-called "Golden Era." It's just what he does, this is nothing new with him.


I will give him credit for either the ability to change his spots on occasion, or perhaps he's just getting forgetful in his old age (was he ever young?). In his book "The 100 Greatest Boxers of All Time," published in 1984, he lists Jack Dempsey as the fourth greatest fighter in history. Not the fourth greatest heavy of all time, which I think would be ridiculously generous, but the fourth greatest FIGHTER of all time. He rates Louis sixth. One looking at his current list of best heavies ever might be a bit confused. I am not, as I stopped trying to figure this guy out about 15 years ago.

blockhead
11-25-2005, 11:05 AM
if you watched classic ringside: bert suger's top ten heavyweights, you have just witnessed the biggest robbery in the history of boxing! why, do you ask? well, here's the list.

10. larry holmes
9. joe frazier
8. george foreman
7. ezzard charles
6. rocky marciano
5. gene tunney
4. jack johnson
3. jack dempsey
2. muhammad ali
1. joe louis

they actually put thee greatest at #2! bert sugar is the closest thing to john dilinger that i know, thanks to this list. this is an outrage! ali is the greatest, was the greatest, and always be the greatest! joe louis would get destroyed by ali, even sugar admitted this, but the criteria he judged this on was the biggest bull i ever heard. i'm furious! aren't you?

http://www.muhammad-ali-sumo.de/excerpt_goat_02.jpg
yeah, you sure have proven on this site that you know more than bert sugar. :rolleyes:
get off it, sugar put together a great list and a great program for us to watch. try posting about someone other than ali or your new boy that you just heard about floyd.

Brockton Lip
11-25-2005, 12:09 PM
I would bump Marciano closer to 1 on that list and would make Ali number 1.

j
11-25-2005, 06:45 PM
jack johnson #1!!!!!!!!!!!!!

research has shown that many of the histortians and writers that were around from jim jeffries era to ali's, say that johnson is on top of thier list. and even judging from the grainy, slow framed, uneven cinescope speed of his fight footage i could tell jack had the pure skills to be able to deal with anybody. you could probablt argue with fighters such as louis, ali, and marciano to be up for contention as well. it's impossible to acuurately pronounce a best fighter of all time and is purely opinion orientated.

Dempsey 1919
11-25-2005, 07:22 PM
yeah, you sure have proven on this site that you know more than bert sugar. :rolleyes:
get off it, sugar put together a great list and a great program for us to watch. try posting about someone other than ali or your new boy that you just heard about floyd.

who are you talking about?

Da Iceman
11-25-2005, 07:34 PM
larry holmes was robbed! he shouldve been #3 instead of dempsey, and charles shouldnt of even been on the list, what they hell did he do at heavyweight except beat a 127 year old louis and lose to marciano and walcott.

if walcott beat charles shouldnt he be on the list too?

Dempsey 1919
11-25-2005, 11:51 PM
larry holmes was robbed! he shouldve been #3 instead of dempsey, and charles shouldnt of even been on the list, what they hell did he do at heavyweight except beat a 127 year old louis and lose to marciano and walcott.

if walcott beat charles shouldnt he be on the list too?

actually, charles beat walcott 2 out of 3 times, so charles is better.

M26
11-26-2005, 08:42 AM
My heavyweight list:

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Rocky Marciano
4. George Foreman
5. Larry Holmes
6. Jack Dempsey
7. Gene Tunney
8. Joe Frazier
9. Sonny Liston
10. Mike Tyson

I don't know enough about guys like Jack Johnson or Jeffries to have them on my list.

czars_salad
11-26-2005, 09:42 AM
if you watched classic ringside: bert suger's top ten heavyweights, you have just witnessed the biggest robbery in the history of boxing! why, do you ask? well, here's the list.

10. larry holmes
9. joe frazier
8. george foreman
7. ezzard charles
6. rocky marciano
5. gene tunney
4. jack johnson
3. jack dempsey
2. muhammad ali
1. joe louis

they actually put thee greatest at #2! bert sugar is the closest thing to john dilinger that i know, thanks to this list. this is an outrage! ali is the greatest, was the greatest, and always be the greatest! joe louis would get destroyed by ali, even sugar admitted this, but the criteria he judged this on was the biggest bull i ever heard. i'm furious! aren't you?

http://www.muhammad-ali-sumo.de/excerpt_goat_02.jpg
it's just an opinion dude... being the best is always a subjective issue

leff
11-26-2005, 09:55 AM
My heavyweight list:

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Rocky Marciano
4. George Foreman
5. Larry Holmes
6. Jack Dempsey
7. Gene Tunney
8. Joe Frazier
9. Sonny Liston
10. Mike Tyson

I don't know enough about guys like Jack Johnson or Jeffries to have them on my list.

that list is ****ing brilliant,wouldnt change it much, id say out with tyson and in with holyfield and its about perfect.

Mr. Violence
11-26-2005, 12:07 PM
if you watched classic ringside: bert suger's top ten heavyweights, you have just witnessed the biggest robbery in the history of boxing! why, do you ask? well, here's the list.

10. larry holmes
9. joe frazier
8. george foreman
7. ezzard charles
6. rocky marciano
5. gene tunney
4. jack johnson
3. jack dempsey
2. muhammad ali
1. joe louis

they actually put thee greatest at #2! bert sugar is the closest thing to john dilinger that i know, thanks to this list. this is an outrage! ali is the greatest, was the greatest, and always be the greatest! joe louis would get destroyed by ali, even sugar admitted this, but the criteria he judged this on was the biggest bull i ever heard. i'm furious! aren't you?

http://www.muhammad-ali-sumo.de/excerpt_goat_02.jpg



I totally agree...Ali was the greatest and would KO Joe Louis. Louis would not know what to do with Ali's movement and speed.

Da Iceman
11-27-2005, 12:46 PM
i really doubt ali had the power to stop louis

Da Iceman
11-27-2005, 12:47 PM
but walcott finaly beat him, and from what i saw walcott won that fight

fabulous
11-27-2005, 01:53 PM
Is this Ali's nuthuggers site? Ali the greatest? You shouldn't believe all what Ali has said, he is self proclaimed greatest :D
Ali is top 3 alltime HW but no wonder old timers rate Louis higher, Ali was techically flawed fighter and got too much by cheating(in his late career).

Da Iceman
11-27-2005, 05:26 PM
Is this Ali's nuthuggers site? Ali the greatest? You shouldn't believe all what Ali has said, he is self proclaimed greatest :D
Ali is top 3 alltime HW but no wonder old timers rate Louis higher, Ali was techically flawed fighter and got too much by cheating(in his late career).
hit the nail right on the head

Tha Greatest
11-27-2005, 05:33 PM
butterfly should be banned for being such a nuthugger and flooding the history section with BULL**** topics!

blockhead
11-27-2005, 05:40 PM
butterfly should be banned for being such a nuthugger and flooding the history section with BULL**** topics!
i couldnt agree more.

blockhead
11-27-2005, 05:42 PM
who are you talking about?
thats hilarious. you just started posting about floyd patterson and you have already forgotten. give me a break.

Dempsey 1919
11-27-2005, 05:46 PM
thats hilarious. you just started posting about floyd patterson and you have already forgotten. give me a break.

try postin about someone other than ali or your boy you just heard about floyd.

look, i knew about floyd patterson for years, i know more boxing than you think.

Imira
11-30-2005, 04:37 PM
Joe Louis #1

Great choice, I think. But there's really no reason to let someone else's opinion get under your skin...

Dynamite76
11-30-2005, 08:10 PM
Personally, I feel that Ali was the #1 heavy of all-time.But if Bert Sugar and many of the other old-timers want to pick Louis for their top spot, that's okay too.

flipside
11-30-2005, 08:33 PM
everyone is entitled to their own opinion.. its called freedom of expression...

blockhead
11-30-2005, 08:35 PM
look, i knew about floyd patterson for years, i know more boxing than you think.
yea you've been doing a good job of proving that lately. :rolleyes:

Dempsey 1919
11-30-2005, 11:13 PM
yea you've been doing a good job of proving that lately. :rolleyes:

and you have done a good job of living up to your user name, no sarcasm intended lol! :p