View Full Version : Shavers vs Joe Louis


them_apples
02-15-2012, 06:43 PM
Ok let's get his straight, Louis is clearly the better more rounded fighter, but in a head-to-head match up I give Shavers a huge chance. Louis always kept his left low and was open for a right hand over the top lead or counter. Walcott hit him with this and so did Schmeling, I know others have too.

Shavers would also be in with someone of similar size. I'm not one to care much about size but in this case I think it would let Shavers feel like the bigger man for once.

What happens when Shavers connects with his right hand?? He would most definitely, without a doubt in my mind as he did so against much better defensive minded fighters.

I know Louis has a punchers chance, but I don't see that coming into effect untill about round 5, Shavers was usually done by then anyways.

I'd like to hear some unbiased ideas, I personally can see Louis just getting stopped - a small chance that he weathers the storm and turns the tables on shavers abruptly, but Shavers by KO is a big chance of outcome.

Shavers nearly knocked Holmes out cold in his prime, if it wasn't for Holmes incredible evasive abilities he would have been finished. He also hurt Ali badly, who had one of the best chins of all time bar non and possibly the most heart.

joseph5620
02-15-2012, 06:52 PM
Ok let's get his straight, Louis is clearly the better more rounded fighter, but in a head-to-head match up I give Shavers a huge chance. Louis always kept his left low and was open for a right hand over the top lead or counter. Walcott hit him with this and so did Schmeling, I know others have too.

Shavers would also be in with someone of similar size. I'm not one to care much about size but in this case I think it would let Shavers feel like the bigger man for once.

What happens when Shavers connects with his right hand?? He would most definitely, without a doubt in my mind as he did so against much better defensive minded fighters.

I know Louis has a punchers chance, but I don't see that coming into effect untill about round 5, Shavers was usually done by then anyways.

I'd like to hear some unbiased ideas, I personally can see Louis just getting stopped - a small chance that he weathers the storm and turns the tables on shavers abruptly, but Shavers by KO is a big chance of outcome.

Shavers nearly knocked Holmes out cold in his prime, if it wasn't for Holmes incredible evasive abilities he would have been finished. He also hurt Ali badly, who had one of the best chins of all time bar non and possibly the most heart.

Very dangerous early on for Louis but I can't pick Shavers to beat him. Two different class of fighters. Shavers had devastaing power, as everybody knows. But he also was a limited fighter in many ways. Poor stamina, slow and his chin was not that good either. Shavers hurt Ali and Holmes, but he was also stopped by Ron Lyle and Jerry Quarry (1 round). I see some rocky moments for Louis early (similar to the Galento fight) but I also see him overcoming them to take Shavers out in about 6 rounds

them_apples
02-15-2012, 06:54 PM
Very dangerous early on for Louis but I can't pick Shavers to beat him. Two different class of fighters. Shavers had devastaing power, as everybody knows. But he also was a limited fighter in many ways. Poor stamina, slow and his chin was that good either. Shavers hurt Ali and Holmes, but he was alos stopped by Ron Lyle and Jerry Quarry (1 round) I see some rocky moments for Louis(similiar to the Galento fight) but I also see him overcoming them to take Shavers out in about 6 rounds

good points. But what about his open defense for Shavers right? Even Lyle and Quarry weren't necessarily prone to eating that punch. The point of this thread.

I'm almost 100% certain it would land, and Louis survival skills are average at best. I completely agree Louis is the more rounded fighter and would put up a much better fight against some of the opponent's shavers lost too. But we can't pick a fighter to win based on his greatness alone.

Barn
02-15-2012, 07:15 PM
Louis KO2.

Easy fight, easy knockout.

Shavers has literally no chance here in my opinion. Maybe against a green Louis who didn't take a right hand well but he would still kick the living **** out of Shavers regardless.

And before any one asks. Schmeling is a much better fighter than Shavers.

kendom
02-15-2012, 07:23 PM
Louis had great recovery abilities, from his fight with Galento and Buddy Baer he was knocked down and got right back on the job. I see Louis taking a knockdown and then coming on to seriously hurt Shavers and knock him out, too good a boxer with the jab and accuracy plus Shaves chin

Louis by KO 4

Barn
02-15-2012, 07:27 PM
I guess I'm the only one who thinks Shavers does f*** all in this match-up.

The_Demon
02-15-2012, 07:32 PM
I agree with Joseph,two different class of fighters

Of course Shavers has a punchers chance,he would have a punchers chance against an elephant,but his power doesnt make up for his major lacking in other areas when facing a guy like Louis,after a few early scares the brown bomber stops him around the 6th,and it would be brutal

Forza
02-15-2012, 07:35 PM
Louis by K.O under 6 would be a safe bet. Pretty much better in every area except punching power which louis is no slacker at.

Hell I'd put a prime louis against any HW in history except the giants (K1, K2, lennox )

Ray Corso
02-15-2012, 07:36 PM
Mr. Max taught Joe all about dropping and rowing his jab and not tucking his chin. Max was a very good puncher just like Ernie but remember that in the heavyweight division theres alot of guys with the power to hurt. Ernie had great reach and he could take a good punch but he never fought anyone that would jab then rip right hands to his body (side) and look to see when and how the hook could land. Ernie never fought anyone with a two handed attack like Joe brings. Louis threw all the punches correctly and if you retreated to the ropes or corner you were in for it! I don't think the members here actually realize the ability of Joe Louis. Max Schmeling was a hell of a fighter and if it weren't for Hitler holding his family and status in jepardy Max would have been fighting out of NYC. In their second fight try to find the audio and listen to the punches and you can hear Max sigh and the air rushing out of him. Joe broke T's in the mans back and almost severed ribs from his chest bone. Max was a vewry good fighter and proved it against Joe the first time, and said he'd stop him. I like Ernie alot, he'd get hurt bad. Ray

IronDanHamza
02-15-2012, 07:48 PM
Shavers always has a punchers chance.

I think Louis would take his time in this one, break him down a bit, then knock him out.

But Louis without any doubt wins this fights with absolutely no problems outside a single shot that may hurt him.

Scott9945
02-15-2012, 09:29 PM
Jerry Quarry was a very good heavyweight, but nowhere near the level of Joe Louis. Quarry KO'd Shavers in the 1st round. I won't even start with Ron Stander and Bob Stallings. If you're talking about Lewis, Bowe, Klitschko, etc. you can use the size rationale. But Shavers wasn't any taller than Louis and I can't make a reasonable case for him winning here. Whenever you have to play the "punchers chance" card, if you're being honest you're really saying "lucky punch".

them_apples
02-15-2012, 11:27 PM
Jerry Quarry was a very good heavyweight, but nowhere near the level of Joe Louis. Quarry KO'd Shavers in the 1st round. I won't even start with Ron Stander and Bob Stallings. If you're talking about Lewis, Bowe, Klitschko, etc. you can use the size rationale. But Shavers wasn't any taller than Louis and I can't make a reasonable case for him winning here. Whenever you have to play the "punchers chance" card, if you're being honest you're really saying "lucky punch".

true say good post.

Capaedia
02-15-2012, 11:58 PM
Louis had a great chin, could adjust quickly, seemed impossible to fluster (I always liked how he calmly just gets up and back into the ring after being knocked over the ropes by Baer) underrated defense, and was better at delivering his own powerful shots than Shavers, Louis probably has better delivery than any other fighter in history.

Shavers had great power. That's about it, he wasn't all that good at getting it to its target either, as his record will attest to.

Maybe Shavers would land a big punch, which would probably drop Louis (Shavers could probably drop an ox if he landed flush) Who is to say it would take Louis out? He was only knocked out by Schmeling after 12 rounds of solid right counters and Rocky Marciano, whilst considerably past his best, even then it took 8 rounds.

Shavers has an outside shot, and a small one at that. Louis all the way.

New England
02-16-2012, 12:45 AM
Ok let's get his straight, Louis is clearly the better more rounded fighter, but in a head-to-head match up I give Shavers a huge chance. Louis always kept his left low and was open for a right hand over the top lead or counter. Walcott hit him with this and so did Schmeling, I know others have too.

Shavers would also be in with someone of similar size. I'm not one to care much about size but in this case I think it would let Shavers feel like the bigger man for once.

What happens when Shavers connects with his right hand?? He would most definitely, without a doubt in my mind as he did so against much better defensive minded fighters.

I know Louis has a punchers chance, but I don't see that coming into effect untill about round 5, Shavers was usually done by then anyways.

I'd like to hear some unbiased ideas, I personally can see Louis just getting stopped - a small chance that he weathers the storm and turns the tables on shavers abruptly, but Shavers by KO is a big chance of outcome.

Shavers nearly knocked Holmes out cold in his prime, if it wasn't for Holmes incredible evasive abilities he would have been finished. He also hurt Ali badly, who had one of the best chins of all time bar non and possibly the most heart.



louis has a punchers chance? against acorn earnie?

you've got it backwards my man
shavers has the punchers chance. a small one.

joe louis might be the best offensive fighter of all time. he would find the distance for the right hand on shavers and land it quickly. i really dont think he'd make it out of the first four rounds. he might get stopped in one or two.

he'd get a good look at earnie, who really didnt do anything particularly clever, and start landing stuff early. real early. bombs, counterpunches, combinations. whatever he could until shavers went down.

this is a fantasy fight, right?
not "shavers on his best night and louis on his worst?"
joe louis in his prime was a total stud. obviously anything can happen in a HW fight with offensive fighters//big punchers, but there's no way he'd lose to earnie shavers.

<iframe width="480" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/6sv1ph-Ecf0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

i'm usually not a fan of highlights (you dont usually get a chance to see any of the good work the opponents get done,) but here's one of louis. i'm sure you've seen him fight. just watch the reactions of the guys he hits. some of them are completely unconscious or close to it from single right hands or left hooks. and he's not just banging hard, he's placing perfect shots

Ziggy Stardust
02-16-2012, 01:01 AM
louis has a punchers chance? against acorn earnie?

you've got it backwards my man
shavers has the punchers chance. a small one.

joe louis might be the best offensive fighter of all time. he would find the distance for the right hand on shavers and land it quickly. i really dont think he'd make it out of the first four rounds. he might get stopped in one or two.

he'd get a good look at earnie, who really didnt do anything particularly clever, and start landing stuff early. real early. bombs, counterpunches, combinations. whatever he could until shavers went down.

this is a fantasy fight, right?
not "shavers on his best night and louis on his worst?"
joe louis in his prime was a total stud. obviously anything can happen in a HW fight with offensive fighters//big punchers, but there's no way he'd lose to earnie shavers.

<iframe width="480" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/6sv1ph-Ecf0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

i'm usually not a fan of highlights (you dont usually get a chance to see any of the good work the opponents get done,) but here's one of louis. i'm sure you've seen him fight. just watch the reactions of the guys he hits. some of them are completely unconscious or close to it from single right hands or left hooks. and he's not just banging hard, he's placing perfect shots

Bruins won in a shootout tonight.....

New England
02-16-2012, 01:07 AM
Bruins won in a shootout tonight.....




started good / decent

finished piss poor

got a bit lucky in ot. and then we just gotta unleash seggy and thomas in the shootout.

really nice pouliot goal/move too. dirty

Ziggy Stardust
02-16-2012, 01:13 AM
started good / decent

finished piss poor

got a bit lucky in ot. and then we just gotta unleash seggy and thomas in the shootout.

really nice pouliot goal/move too. dirty

I dunno.....they were too damn slow getting into the offensive zone tonight. Sluggish. Every time a Bruin penetrated I'd end up wondering where the hell is his help. One guy with a puck and next closest Bruin was no closer then center ice I mean WTF?!?

Poet

them_apples
02-16-2012, 01:38 AM
no actually the thread turned into a who vs who but its actually a style vs style.

I brought up Louis difficulty avoiding a right hand over the top the same one that Schmeling landed over and over till the championship rounds. I figured Shavers would land it as well.

I think a lot of people are letting Louis' greatness get in the way here.

It's like saying whos greater? Ali or Norton? they went life and death however. Ali is the much greater boxer. Styles play a huge role.

peeps are knocking Shavers for being stopped by quarry in the first, what about Schmeling's multiple stoppages inside the first quarter?? before he met Louis.?

All speculation, I'm just surprised how lopsided the comments are. It's almost as if nobody bothered to think about it.

Capaedia
02-16-2012, 02:55 AM
no actually the thread turned into a who vs who but its actually a style vs style.

I brought up Louis difficulty avoiding a right hand over the top the same one that Schmeling landed over and over till the championship rounds. I figured Shavers would land it as well.

I think a lot of people are letting Louis' greatness get in the way here.

It's like saying whos greater? Ali or Norton? they went life and death however. Ali is the much greater boxer. Styles play a huge role.

peeps are knocking Shavers for being stopped by quarry in the first, what about Schmeling's multiple stoppages inside the first quarter?? before he met Louis.?

All speculation, I'm just surprised how lopsided the comments are. It's almost as if nobody bothered to think about it.

Think of it this way.

Louis has the edge in virtually everything. Shavers only has power on Louis.

Yet they both have the power to take each other out. Louis would need a good shot, Shavers would need a great shot.

It seems fairly simple to me that Louis is a lot more likely to take Shavers out than vice versa. Is a Shavers upset possible? Yeah, but not likely. Not by a long shot.

them_apples
02-16-2012, 05:24 PM
Think of it this way.

Louis has the edge in virtually everything. Shavers only has power on Louis.

Yet they both have the power to take each other out. Louis would need a good shot, Shavers would need a great shot.

It seems fairly simple to me that Louis is a lot more likely to take Shavers out than vice versa. Is a Shavers upset possible? Yeah, but not likely. Not by a long shot.

Shavers wouldn't need a "great shot" to get rid of Louis. He was decked by much lesser punchers than Shavers. Shavers nearly knocked iron chinned Holmes out cold. Not only is Holmes iron chinned but he's hard to hit as well.

Louis never had an iron chin nor did he ever incredible defense. Do you catch my drift? or am I crazy?

I've seen Louis get rid of one dimensional punchers as well, don't think I'm leaning only in Shavers favour. It's at least a 50/50 fight for me depending on Louis gameplan.

Louis has quicker hands, shorter punches and much better stamina, so I haven't missed those factors. He survives the initial early rounds then it's Louis fight no doubt.

I just don't like this growing "one sided" approach to fantasy match ups. Not giving a certain boxer a chance what so ever based on another fighters greatness.

Had Frazier and Ali never fought you can bet everyone on this forum would have picked Ali by a lopsided wooping in a fantasy match.

Ziggy Stardust
02-16-2012, 05:28 PM
Had Frazier and Ali never fought you can bet everyone on this forum would have picked Ali by a lopsided wooping in a fantasy match.

If it's a prime Ali circa 1967 then I still do pick Ali by a good margin.

Poet

them_apples
02-16-2012, 05:32 PM
If it's a prime Ali circa 1967 then I still do pick Ali by a good margin.

Poet

I've looked at the idea of that fight as well. Seeing Ali against Chuvalo in the first fight he was incredible. So maybe you have a point, but at the same time, he was taking shots from Chuvalo, I personally don't see the fight being a whole lot different. Frazier might hit the canvas though at some point.

Regardless, replace my example with a more fitting one, you get the idea. People need to be a little more open minded when it comes to fantasy match ups.

It seems like every fight always has someone hinting at a one sided drubbing.

Sugarj
02-16-2012, 06:21 PM
Ok let's get his straight, Louis is clearly the better more rounded fighter, but in a head-to-head match up I give Shavers a huge chance. Louis always kept his left low and was open for a right hand over the top lead or counter. Walcott hit him with this and so did Schmeling, I know others have too.

Shavers would also be in with someone of similar size. I'm not one to care much about size but in this case I think it would let Shavers feel like the bigger man for once.

What happens when Shavers connects with his right hand?? He would most definitely, without a doubt in my mind as he did so against much better defensive minded fighters.

I know Louis has a punchers chance, but I don't see that coming into effect untill about round 5, Shavers was usually done by then anyways.

I'd like to hear some unbiased ideas, I personally can see Louis just getting stopped - a small chance that he weathers the storm and turns the tables on shavers abruptly, but Shavers by KO is a big chance of outcome.

Shavers nearly knocked Holmes out cold in his prime, if it wasn't for Holmes incredible evasive abilities he would have been finished. He also hurt Ali badly, who had one of the best chins of all time bar non and possibly the most heart.


I agree with you. Its a very dangerous fight for Louis, and were they to have say a three fight series, I'd put money on Shavers pulling off a stoppage win on one of them.

Of course there is every chance that Louis would give Shavers an even more embarrassing one round whipping than Jerry Quarry did. But a slightly poor day at the office type of evening for Louis could be fatal, he had a few off nights of course (Schmelling 1, Galento, Farr).

Barn
02-16-2012, 06:32 PM
I agree with you. Its a very dangerous fight for Louis, and were they to have say a three fight series, I'd put money on Shavers pulling off a stoppage win on one of them.

Of course there is every chance that Louis would give Shavers an even more embarrassing one round whipping than Jerry Quarry did. But a slightly poor day at the office type of evening for Louis could be fatal, he had a few off nights of course (Schmelling 1, Galento, Farr).
I'd argue Shavers would need 30 fights to pull off an upset.

The_Demon
02-16-2012, 06:40 PM
no actually the thread turned into a who vs who but its actually a style vs style.

I brought up Louis difficulty avoiding a right hand over the top the same one that Schmeling landed over and over till the championship rounds. I figured Shavers would land it as well.

I think a lot of people are letting Louis' greatness get in the way here.

It's like saying whos greater? Ali or Norton? they went life and death however. Ali is the much greater boxer. Styles play a huge role.

peeps are knocking Shavers for being stopped by quarry in the first, what about Schmeling's multiple stoppages inside the first quarter?? before he met Louis.?

All speculation, I'm just surprised how lopsided the comments are. It's almost as if nobody bothered to think about it.


Im pretty sure people have thought about the match-up,hence why they have posted their opinions on it,just because they completely disagree you doesnt mean they have dismissed anything

Not once has anybody said 'Louis wins simply because hes the greater fighter'-everybody has given valid reasons as to why they think he would win

Capaedia
02-16-2012, 07:48 PM
Shavers wouldn't need a "great shot" to get rid of Louis. He was decked by much lesser punchers than Shavers. Shavers nearly knocked iron chinned Holmes out cold. Not only is Holmes iron chinned but he's hard to hit as well.

Louis could be knocked down, but knocking him out was a different matter. His recuperative skills and focus were top-notch.

He was only ever knocked out after prolonged beatings. For Shavers the opposite is true.

Louis never had an iron chin nor did he ever incredible defense. Do you catch my drift? or am I crazy?

But he had a great chin, and good defense. Shavers was no technician, most of the time Louis is going to be out of his range. When Louis is in range he's going to beat Shavers to the punch.

I've seen Louis get rid of one dimensional punchers as well, don't think I'm leaning only in Shavers favour. It's at least a 50/50 fight for me depending on Louis gameplan.

Louis has quicker hands, shorter punches and much better stamina, so I haven't missed those factors. He survives the initial early rounds then it's Louis fight no doubt.

I just don't like this growing "one sided" approach to fantasy match ups. Not giving a certain boxer a chance what so ever based on another fighters greatness.

Had Frazier and Ali never fought you can bet everyone on this forum would have picked Ali by a lopsided wooping in a fantasy match.

That's because without Frazier, no-one would have proven Ali had problems with swarmers. Now if there was anything that you could say of Louis, it'd be that men like Shavers were never any match for him.

I'm just not seeing much chance of Shavers knocking Louis out due to that one defensive liability (that he fixed after Schmeling I) before Louis knocks Shavers out to due to his several defensive liabilities.

Louis is simply the better fighter offensively and defensively, and while they both have the power to knock each other out, Louis is much better at delivering that power and harder for it to be delivered to.

Ray Corso
02-16-2012, 08:02 PM
The best heavyweight ever!! Against a fighter who maybe breaks into the top fifty? As far as power goes Ernies right hand had the power thats it!! Joe Louis had power in ALL his punches, his left hook could put anyone on the floor. The power department is in Louis corner not Ernies and whos going to land with the most frequence plus power? I like Ernie and his power could be a caution in most fights but he doesn't hold Joes gloves, honestly theres no comparisons. Joe Louis was not a small man either he had size over Ernie, at 6'2" 205lbs. I had Joe Louis and Ali at a dinner honoring one of Joes best sparring partners and former Heavyweight boxer named Georgie Fitch and Ali looked slight standing next to Joe. Ali is a legit 6'3" and Louis at 6" 2" looked bigger. Granted long after his ring days but he only was up to about 235lbs then and Ali was about 230lbs. Ernie was probably 5"11" at best and had long arms but didn't have good reactions when punches came to him, hes a great guy but not in the league of greats, he just isn't! Ray Corso

them_apples
02-16-2012, 08:13 PM
The best heavyweight ever!! Against a fighter who maybe breaks into the top fifty? As far as power goes Ernies right hand had the power thats it!! Joe Louis had power in ALL his punches, his left hook could put anyone on the floor. The power department is in Louis corner not Ernies and whos going to land with the most frequence plus power? I like Ernie and his power could be a caution in most fights but he doesn't hold Joes gloves, honestly theres no comparisons. Joe Louis was not a small man either he had size over Ernie, at 6'2" 205lbs. I had Joe Louis and Ali at a dinner honoring one of Joes best sparring partners and former Heavyweight boxer named Georgie Fitch and Ali looked slight standing next to Joe. Ali is a legit 6'3" and Louis at 6" 2" looked bigger. Granted long after his ring days but he only was up to about 235lbs then and Ali was about 230lbs. Ernie was probably 5"11" at best and had long arms but didn't have good reactions when punches came to him, hes a great guy but not in the league of greats, he just isn't! Ray Corso

When Louis was fit he wouldn't be as big as Ali. I like how you have a lot of boxing xp but a lot of your posts are brutally biased. Shavers was 6'0 ft, 210 sure but his legs were toothpicks. He was like Roger Mayweather at HW. His upper body was huge, and not an artificial big like Shannon briggs, he was born that way.

Size is besides the point, I wasn't even using that as a big factor. 198 lb Louis sparked huge men anyways. Even Marciano got rid of men 6'4 220+

GoogleMe
02-17-2012, 04:25 AM
I've never seen anything special in Shavers, besides power in a fight against an old Ali.
Joe Louis is just from a different planet compared to Shavers. He may not have quite the same power, but he has got a very strong left hook, and very good overall power. Louis' technique and precision is just uncompareable to Shavers for me.
Louis will take him out during the middle rounds.

mickey malone
02-17-2012, 06:36 AM
Can Shavers nullify the potency of Louis's spiteful left jab??

Joe was no dancer but fleet of foot in comparison to Earnie so i can't really see how Shavers lands with any regularity and would be an open invitation to Louis's upper-cut combos from that plodding hermit crab stance of his..

Can only see one winner - Joe Louis in about 5 rounds

wmute
02-17-2012, 07:27 AM
I think the big thing difference here, is that Schmeling was a smart boxer who systematically broke down Louis. He was very methodical about it. That is not Shavers, to me he has a decent puncher's chance because Louis' chin is not Ali's or Holmes', but that is about it! Because IMO he is not going to systemically land all right hands Schmeling landed, not even a fraction (which could be sufficient considering his insane power).

Sugarj
02-17-2012, 07:37 AM
I'd argue Shavers would need 30 fights to pull off an upset.


Maybe!

But when Louis had an off night, he really could look very average and beatable. He still had enough to usually beat his opponents......but the likes of Galento, Farr, Schmelling & Conn (Louis's more notable off night opponents)did not hit nearly as hard as Shavers......and it was rare for Earnie to not land something devestating over the course of a fight. It would be quite risky for anything other than a well motivated Joe Louis.

At the end of the day the Louis from Schmelling 2 beats Shavers all day every day. But Joe wasn't always that good or fired up.

Barn
02-17-2012, 08:20 AM
Maybe!

But when Louis had an off night, he really could look very average and beatable. He still had enough to usually beat his opponents......but the likes of Galento, Farr, Schmelling & Conn (Louis's more notable off night opponents)did not hit nearly as hard as Shavers......and it was rare for Earnie to not land something devestating over the course of a fight. It would be quite risky for anything other than a well motivated Joe Louis.

At the end of the day the Louis from Schmelling 2 beats Shavers all day every day. But Joe wasn't always that good or fired up.
He made 25 defences of the title!

If he had bad off nights I'm sure they would be exposed.

Farr was his first defence. It's understandable he would be tense for that fight and I'd say Farr was a bit better than Shavers.

Schmeling was a World Champion, ATG arguably. Very good fundamental fighter. The opposite of everything Shavers is. Louis was also not prime for that fight. A little green and under prepared if you ask me. It was meant as a tune up for a title fight.

Same story with Conn. ATG fighter bad style match-up. Shavers has no such advantages.

Joe after the Schmeling fight was always fired up and ready to go 15 rounds and in excellent condition.

He didn't have that bad a night to KO Galento in 4. One off balance sort of wild right hand countered with a left hook was the only mistake Louis made. He was up at 2 and continued to hit Galento at will. Galento is an awkward fighter to fight. His head movememnt is actually respectable and he can lunge in with good hard counters and make it rough on the inside. Think Mike Tyson just out of shape a little less power and much less skilled.

wmute
02-17-2012, 10:36 AM
Maybe!

But when Louis had an off night, he really could look very average and beatable. He still had enough to usually beat his opponents......but the likes of Galento, Farr, Schmelling & Conn (Louis's more notable off night opponents)did not hit nearly as hard as Shavers......and it was rare for Earnie to not land something devestating over the course of a fight. It would be quite risky for anything other than a well motivated Joe Louis.

At the end of the day the Louis from Schmelling 2 beats Shavers all day every day. But Joe wasn't always that good or fired up.

Schmeling did not stop Louis with one devastating punch! He broke him down. If anything that should tell us that a boxer with a great plan can beat Louis, not that a hardhitter can get lucky and nail him with *one* good punch.

wmute
02-17-2012, 10:43 AM
He made 25 defences of the title!

If he had bad off nights I'm sure they would be exposed.

Farr was his first defence. It's understandable he would be tense for that fight and I'd say Farr was a bit better than Shavers.

Schmeling was a World Champion, ATG arguably. Very good fundamental fighter. The opposite of everything Shavers is. Louis was also not prime for that fight. A little green and under prepared if you ask me. It was meant as a tune up for a title fight.

Same story with Conn. ATG fighter bad style match-up. Shavers has no such advantages.

Joe after the Schmeling fight was always fired up and ready to go 15 rounds and in excellent condition.

He didn't have that bad a night to KO Galento in 4. One off balance sort of wild right hand countered with a left hook was the only mistake Louis made. He was up at 2 and continued to hit Galento at will. Galento is an awkward fighter to fight. His head movememnt is actually respectable and he can lunge in with good hard counters and make it rough on the inside. Think Mike Tyson just out of shape a little less power and much less skilled.

that sums it up. I mean if someone today told you "Margarito can lay right hands at will on judah because mayweather could" what would you think?

Sugarj
02-17-2012, 01:26 PM
He made 25 defences of the title!

If he had bad off nights I'm sure they would be exposed.

Farr was his first defence. It's understandable he would be tense for that fight and I'd say Farr was a bit better than Shavers.

Schmeling was a World Champion, ATG arguably. Very good fundamental fighter. The opposite of everything Shavers is. Louis was also not prime for that fight. A little green and under prepared if you ask me. It was meant as a tune up for a title fight.

Same story with Conn. ATG fighter bad style match-up. Shavers has no such advantages.

Joe after the Schmeling fight was always fired up and ready to go 15 rounds and in excellent condition.

He didn't have that bad a night to KO Galento in 4. One off balance sort of wild right hand countered with a left hook was the only mistake Louis made. He was up at 2 and continued to hit Galento at will. Galento is an awkward fighter to fight. His head movememnt is actually respectable and he can lunge in with good hard counters and make it rough on the inside. Think Mike Tyson just out of shape a little less power and much less skilled.


Just the way I see it I'm afraid. I give Shavers a passable chance against an off form/green/or slightly post prime Louis, would that be more acceptable? Ha ha. I think that Shavers measures up at least as good as the majority of Louis's title challengers. I think Shavers would likely beat Farr even with his technical limitations.

Jersey Joe Walcott seemed to bounce right hands off a post prime Louis at will. Braddock and Farr landed a fair share of rights too (Braddock managed a knockdown with one from memory). Shavers was no Jersey Joe by a long stretch but he had enough accuracy and awareness to drill some revolting shots into Holmes and Ali, so its not without some degree of thought that he might catch Louis too.

Dont get me wrong, I think that an on form Louis could do more than a Jerry Quarry.

But Louis was an intelligent fighter in the ring......his best chance against Shavers would be to bomb him out in one, but I think that he would respect Earnie's power and be careful for a few rounds.

I don't think Louis was ever hit quite as heavy as Shavers could. The right hands he was able to land on Holmes/Ali/ Norton etc looked really sick.

I don't mind being in the minority on this one. There are a few lesser fighters that I give a good chance over an off form Louis.

Sugarj
02-17-2012, 01:31 PM
Schmeling did not stop Louis with one devastating punch! He broke him down. If anything that should tell us that a boxer with a great plan can beat Louis, not that a hardhitter can get lucky and nail him with *one* good punch.


I think Shavers hit a fair bit harder than Schmelling.

If Louis did ship something truely revolting I don't doubt that he'd get up, how hurt Louis was would determine whether Shavers would land a follow up.

Its only a fantasy match.

wmute
02-17-2012, 02:04 PM
I think Shavers hit a fair bit harder than Schmelling.

If Louis did ship something truely revolting I don't doubt that he'd get up, how hurt Louis was would determine whether Shavers would land a follow up.

Its only a fantasy match.

I agree with you Shavers always has the puncher's chance of course (and he hit much harder than Schmeling). What I am saying is that the fact that Schmeling landed all those right counters, dose not really make it more likely for Shavers to land his. To me the fact that Galento hurt Louis is more relevant to the point. (although Shavers > Galento)

Sugarj
02-17-2012, 03:54 PM
I agree with you Shavers always has the puncher's chance of course (and he hit much harder than Schmeling). What I am saying is that the fact that Schmeling landed all those right counters, dose not really make it more likely for Shavers to land his. To me the fact that Galento hurt Louis is more relevant to the point. (although Shavers > Galento)


I think another thing that gets forgotten is that Schmelling did a fair bit of damage in round 4 and put Louis down pretty heavily. If I were hurt that badly I wouldn't be too excited about getting up to face a wild, probably inaccurate and overeager....yet dangerous Earnie Shavers.

kendom
02-17-2012, 03:55 PM
Yeah when I'm imagining Louis vs Shavers I'm thinking of the fight with Galento, that left hook that Louis although floored was able to recover very well from. Galento could hit hard (not as hard as Shavers of course) and Shavers was a poor finisher, hes not so much a danger to Louis as Tyson who was an excellent finisher. He tended to get wild as he did with Holmes leaving himself open all over the place, this is dangerous against a powerful counter-puncher with the recuperative ability of Louis.

I see Shavers knocking him down with a big punch and his desperation to end the fight with big swinging punches causes him to leaves himself open to Louis who counters with devastating effect and then knocks him out.

Sugarj
02-17-2012, 06:48 PM
Yeah when I'm imagining Louis vs Shavers I'm thinking of the fight with Galento, that left hook that Louis although floored was able to recover very well from. Galento could hit hard (not as hard as Shavers of course) and Shavers was a poor finisher, hes not so much a danger to Louis as Tyson who was an excellent finisher. He tended to get wild as he did with Holmes leaving himself open all over the place, this is dangerous against a powerful counter-puncher with the recuperative ability of Louis.

I see Shavers knocking him down with a big punch and his desperation to end the fight with big swinging punches causes him to leaves himself open to Louis who counters with devastating effect and then knocks him out.


A very probable scenario.

Thing is, in the Holmes fight it was quite late in the fight when Shavers did land (was it round 9?). He was a very tired guy who had taken quite a pasting up till that point.

It was a sheer miracle that Holmes survived, let alone won. If it had happened a few rounds earlier....Shavers might just have taken that one.

them_apples
02-17-2012, 06:56 PM
1: Shavers wasn't a bad finisher at all, Holmes is an ATG boxer with excellent defense and heart, and one of the fastest HW's ever. Let's not forget he's 6'4. Ali just straight up can't be stopped.

2: Shavers is better than Galento in every single catagorie. Galento was a BUM. Shavers was a decent contender + amazing power. Louis got caught off guard and proceeded to merk Galento like the bum he was.

3: The comparison to Mayweather and Margarito is a joke honestly. Shavers landed his massive punches on some of the best defensive boxers in the game, men much taller than him as well. Give the man some credit. I can't believe this many of you can't see him landing and just getting cut to ribbons. I've seen enough of Louis fights where he is befuddled to say the least but his power/accuracy saves the day in the championship rounds.

I know Louis is one of the greatest in the HW division. But this would be no cake walk for him. There is no way Shavers doesn't land at some point. UNLESS Louis comes out to kill him, which he rarely did, he often tried to figure his opponents out and break them down.

Thats the 2 outcomes I see. If Louis comes to kill him, chances are it will be a Jerry Quarry. But if traditional Louis goes up pumping that jab and bring it back low, Shavers right hand will most assuredly come crashing down over the top.


i've been watching a LOT of Louis as of late and can see a potential massacre early. I still however remain on my point that if Louis comes to box it could be ugly.

Ziggy Stardust
02-18-2012, 12:15 AM
Before anybody criticizes Louis for fighting Galento keep in mind Muhammed Ali and Joe Frazier both fought this guy >>>>>
http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/001/926/223/BusterMathis_display_image.jpg?1329380070

Scott9945
02-18-2012, 02:16 AM
Before anybody criticizes Louis for fighting Galento keep in mind Muhammed Ali and Joe Frazier both fought this guy >>>>>
http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/001/926/223/BusterMathis_display_image.jpg?1329380070

And Mike Tyson fought his son.

wmute
02-18-2012, 04:35 AM
3: The comparison to Mayweather and Margarito is a joke honestly. Shavers landed his massive punches on some of the best defensive boxers in the game, men much taller than him as well. Give the man some credit. I can't believe this many of you can't see him landing and just getting cut to ribbons. I've seen enough of Louis fights where he is befuddled to say the least but his power/accuracy saves the day in the championship rounds.


It was meant as a hyperbole, but I think the comparison with Schmeling is more ridiculous.

Ziggy Stardust
02-18-2012, 12:56 PM
And Mike Tyson fought his son.

Who wasn't much slimmer......

them_apples
02-18-2012, 03:27 PM
Mathis (sr) was skilled though, Galento wasn't. Mathis was also what? 6'5 with an 82 reach or something like that.

That photo was funny, I don't remember him fighting THAT fat.

them_apples
02-18-2012, 03:33 PM
It was meant as a hyperbole, but I think the comparison with Schmeling is more ridiculous.

hardly, Schmeling wasn't that skilled. He had a few tricks but his right hand over the jab was as common as ants on an ant hill. If you want to argue an opponent that had skills, Use Walcott. Margarito and Mayweather is possibly the farthest style comparison one could possibly think of. Besides Ali and Frazier.

There is a reason why Louis smoked him out in 1 round for the rematch. You should have a look at Schmelings record. Louis wasn't the first guy to blow out Schmeling. If anything that was Louis error for having poor defense, which he did correct after this fight. He never was a defensive expert though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yilXvhph3Y

Let's be 100% real here. Louis fought some good comp towards the later part of his career, but Baer, Schmeling and Galento were bums. Watch that video and tell me how many times these guys miss, stumble and switch stances and begin fighting in a southpaw stance. Louis might have been excellent, but these guys weren't, and thats why he smashed them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BLGdFQPh8c

Louis was light years ahead of everyone in the HW division untill later on. It's plain to see. Once the Walcotts and Charles showed up he had some brutal fights. Even Rocky. Although most will argue that Louis was old, which was true, but Rocky was a beast.

wmute
02-18-2012, 03:52 PM
hardly, Schmeling wasn't that skilled. He had a few tricks but his right hand over the jab was as common as ants on an ant hill. If you want to argue an opponent that had skills, Use Walcott. Margarito and Mayweather is possibly the farthest style comparison one could possibly think of. Besides Ali and Frazier.

There is a reason why Louis smoked him out in 1 round for the rematch. You should have a look at Schmelings record. Louis wasn't the first guy to blow out Schmeling. If anything that was Louis error for having poor defense, which he did correct after this fight. He never was a defensive expert though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yilXvhph3Y

Let's be 100% real here. Louis fought some good comp towards the later part of his career, but Baer, Schmeling and Galento were bums. Watch that video and tell me how many times these guys miss, stumble and switch stances and begin fighting in a southpaw stance. Louis might have been excellent, but these guys weren't, and thats why he smashed them.

Sure Schmeling and Shavers were very similar fighters...

them_apples
02-18-2012, 03:57 PM
Sure Schmeling and Shavers were very similar fighters...

They weren't, but the punch they threw was almost identical. It's just a typical overhand right, some times set up with a jab to the body. Now you are just trolling though I can tell.

wmute
02-18-2012, 05:02 PM
They weren't, but the punch they threw was almost identical. It's just a typical overhand right, some times set up with a jab to the body. Now you are just trolling though I can tell.

they both jabbed?!?! i did not think of that! now i see what you are saying...

Ziggy Stardust
02-18-2012, 05:52 PM
Mathis (sr) was skilled though, Galento wasn't. Mathis was also what? 6'5 with an 82 reach or something like that.

That photo was funny, I don't remember him fighting THAT fat.

Galento could punch and he could take a punch.....that usually will take you a ways in the Heavyweight division. Mathis, on the other hand, couldn't bust an egg with a hammer.....Look at his record: Practically all his KOs were against guys with records like 8-7 and 19-23 with some assorted Eurofrauds thrown in.

Poet

Scott9945
02-18-2012, 06:14 PM
Mathis (sr) was skilled though, Galento wasn't. Mathis was also what? 6'5 with an 82 reach or something like that.

That photo was funny, I don't remember him fighting THAT fat.


No, that pic was taken long after Buster retired and he looks to be about 400 lbs there. Mathis was always rotund, but not like that. Oddly enough he had no power with very quick hands.

them_apples
02-19-2012, 12:12 AM
they both jabbed?!?! i did not think of that! now i see what you are saying...

trollllolol

wmute
02-19-2012, 05:05 AM
trollllolol

damn I thought I was being subtly sarcastic... not very subtly I guess