View Full Version : Who here believes Liston hit Harder than Foreman?


kendom
02-15-2012, 04:55 PM
I have heard this argument being circulated around in my head and wanted to get people's thoughts on it. How many here believe Liston hit harder than Foreman and can you justify it??

Barn
02-15-2012, 04:58 PM
I don't think he did. You could make an argument for it though. I do think Liston beats him easier than most probably do though.

JAB5239
02-15-2012, 04:59 PM
I have heard this argument being circulated around in my head and wanted to get people's thoughts on it. How many here believe Liston hit harder than Foreman and can you justify it??

Pretty difficult argument to prove either way. Just to close to call, but I'd probably favor Foreman by a shade.

kendom
02-15-2012, 05:06 PM
Pretty difficult argument to prove either way. Just to close to call, but I'd probably favor Foreman by a shade.

An argument made for Liston is that Chuck Wepner who fought them both said that Liston hit harder than George

The_Demon
02-15-2012, 05:19 PM
I dont think Liston hit quite as hard as big George,few people did,to say he hit with the force of a truck is actually overrating the trucks power

Sugarj
02-15-2012, 05:21 PM
An argument made for Liston is that Chuck Wepner who fought them both said that Liston hit harder than George


Foreman was an underdeveloped novice pro when he fought Wepner. Only 210 odd pounds.

Contrast that Foreman with the heavy handed tank which fought Gerry Cooney.

To be honest both guys packed a real wallop, there wasn't much in it. Advantage to Foreman on uppercuts though.

IronDanHamza
02-15-2012, 05:39 PM
I think Liston hit harder and that is on the basis that it looked like Liston hit harder, to me.

The Surgeon
02-15-2012, 05:41 PM
Foreman gets my vote as the harder puncher of the two

Obviously when u hit like Sonny though its gonna be a close run thing, he could really wallop

Tiozzo
02-15-2012, 05:45 PM
Liston was a more educated boxer, I don't know about their power...

them_apples
02-15-2012, 05:47 PM
prime for prime it's a hell of a fight. Liston did hit very hard and had a very good chin before the drugs got him.

I'd still edge Foreman however, probably by stoppage. Foreman was just a monster, an even bigger monster than Liston.

the prime 224 lb Foreman that busted Norton up though, beats just about anyone because he was a solid boxer himself just because his jab was world class. People go on about Listons jab because it was 84 inches, but Foreman swas much more jolting imo.

Ray Corso
02-15-2012, 06:02 PM
Georgie was heavy handed to begin with and when he sat down a little and turned his right hand over it had a devasting effect!! Same with his jab but theres a difference between being heavy handed and hitting hard. The results are the same but hard hitters usually have good techniques and can punch hard with both hands where the heavy handed guys don't and can't hit as solid unless their planted still. Listen could move his feet and double jab and drop a right hand that was hard. Big George usually needed the other guy to stop moving his feet then drop punches on him.
I never saw Liston live but did see Georgie early in his carreer and then after his lay off. Georgie was a scarey man to see across the ring inperson he was a big man now I'm no heavyweight but I'm not scared of anything but I'm not fighting that monster. Just ask Moorer, everything was going alright and actually fairly boring and uneventfull then................its over! Liston was a scarey guy too, ya think? Ray

The_Demon
02-15-2012, 06:11 PM
Georgie was heavy handed to begin with and when he sat down a little and turned his right hand over it had a devasting effect!! Same with his jab but theres a difference between being heavy handed and hitting hard. The results are the same but hard hitters usually have good techniques and can punch hard with both hands where the heavy handed guys don't and can't hit as solid unless their planted still. Listen could move his feet and double jab and drop a right hand that was hard. Big George usually needed the other guy to stop moving his feet then drop punches on him.
I never saw Liston live but did see Georgie early in his carreer and then after his lay off. Georgie was a scarey man to see across the ring inperson he was a big man now I'm no heavyweight but I'm not scared of anything but I'm not fighting that monster. Just ask Moorer, everything was going alright and actually fairly boring and uneventfull then................its over! Liston was a scarey guy too, ya think? Ray

Liston was the most intimidating fighter to have ever walked the planet

Barn
02-15-2012, 06:17 PM
prime for prime it's a hell of a fight. Liston did hit very hard and had a very good chin before the drugs got him.

I'd still edge Foreman however, probably by stoppage. Foreman was just a monster, an even bigger monster than Liston.

the prime 224 lb Foreman that busted Norton up though, beats just about anyone because he was a solid boxer himself just because his jab was world class. People go on about Listons jab because it was 84 inches, but Foreman swas much more jolting imo.
His defence wasn't very good though. A past prime Ali had a field day with straight punches and solid boxing. I think Liston stops him in round 8 by TKO.

Ziggy Stardust
02-15-2012, 06:20 PM
I'd edge Foreman.....though not by much. Both had one-punch power.

Poet

Forza
02-15-2012, 06:39 PM
Punch for punch I got foreman hitting harder

Head to head I got foreman by K.O, then again shavers did beat ali and foreman lost to ali. Then again that wasn't the same Ali.

Barn
02-15-2012, 06:41 PM
Punch for punch I got foreman hitting harder

Head to head I got foreman by K.O, then again shavers did beat ali and foreman lost to ali. Then again that wasn't the same Ali.
When did Shavers beat Ali?

Ray Corso
02-15-2012, 06:50 PM
..........in his sleep...........

joseph5620
02-15-2012, 06:58 PM
Pretty difficult argument to prove either way. Just to close to call, but I'd probably favor Foreman by a shade.

That's exactly how I feel about it. Impossible to prove but if I had to pick one it would be Foreman but not by much.

Scott9945
02-15-2012, 08:49 PM
Liston's punches were sharper and shorter, and he had better timing than George, but IMO Foreman was the hardest puncher in boxing history.

SBleeder
02-16-2012, 06:51 AM
An argument made for Liston is that Chuck Wepner who fought them both said that Liston hit harder than George

Wepner actually used the words "so much harder" in comparing the two.


Foreman was an underdeveloped novice pro when he fought Wepner. Only 210 odd pounds.

Contrast that Foreman with the heavy handed tank which fought Gerry Cooney.

To be honest both guys packed a real wallop, there wasn't much in it. Advantage to Foreman on uppercuts though.

And Liston was completely shot when he fought Wepner...

I give the edge to Liston in power, and certainly give him the edge in punching technique.

bojangles1987
02-16-2012, 07:38 AM
Liston's punches were sharper and shorter, and he had better timing than George, but IMO Foreman was the hardest puncher in boxing history.

That's how I'd look at it, Foreman has more strength in his punches but Liston threw better punches, so that made up the difference.

jabsRstiff
02-16-2012, 07:57 AM
Wepner fought George when George only had a few fights, while Liston was obviously a fully developed (though past his prime) fighter. Whenever fighter A is KOd faster or more decisively by fighter B than he was fighter C, he will tell everyone C was the harder puncher.

Foreman was a harder and heavier puncher than Liston, while Sonny was the better puncher.

dctopboots01
02-16-2012, 08:21 AM
Wepner fought George when George only had a few fights, while Liston was obviously a fully developed (though past his prime) fighter. Whenever fighter A is KOd faster or more decisively by fighter B than he was fighter C, he will tell everyone C was the harder puncher.

Foreman was a harder and heavier puncher than Liston, while Sonny was the better puncher.

Even when Foreman was past his prime at 45, he was still (IMO) the hardest hitter out there. The power he got behing them was like no other!

BattlingNelson
02-16-2012, 10:11 AM
I think it's Foreman for sheer raw power. The footage of him hitting the heavybag while preparing for Ali is awesome. Dick Saddler hanging on the bag while Foreman wails away and putting a dent in the bag. :scared:

Sugarj
02-16-2012, 10:57 AM
Wepner actually used the words "so much harder" in comparing the two.




And Liston was completely shot when he fought Wepner...

I give the edge to Liston in power, and certainly give him the edge in punching technique.


Have you watched the Liston vs Wepner fight? Liston looked superb, granted the level of competition probably flattered the old boy, but I'd go so far as to say Liston never entered the ring a shot fighter.

He had a good lead on Leotis Martin too, but the shot that stopped him did look pretty meaty.

But agreed, on technique....Liston had Foreman's number.

Power? Close call

Sugarj
02-16-2012, 11:01 AM
Wepner fought George when George only had a few fights, while Liston was obviously a fully developed (though past his prime) fighter. Whenever fighter A is KOd faster or more decisively by fighter B than he was fighter C, he will tell everyone C was the harder puncher.

Foreman was a harder and heavier puncher than Liston, while Sonny was the better puncher.


Absolutely spot on. What I've highlighted in bold is so so true......

New England
02-16-2012, 12:52 PM
post layoff foreman had a bit more craft but pre layoff foreman was crude by the standards of a top flight HW in the greatest era of all time


liston was by far the more crisp and educated puncher

that said, i dont think i've ever seen anybody hit as hard, simply in terms of the force of the blow, as george forman in his prime.

them_apples
02-16-2012, 04:53 PM
Absolutely spot on. What I've highlighted in bold is so so true......

the only time I've ever heard someone admit the guy who got rid of them faster hit harder, was Hatton about Pacman.

I mean look what Holmes was saying about Tyson. He said Norton hit harder. like GTFO. You could tell he was full of **** too, trying to find other ways to describe Mike and not give him his dues.

Sugarj
02-16-2012, 05:32 PM
the only time I've ever heard someone admit the guy who got rid of them faster hit harder, was Hatton about Pacman.

I mean look what Holmes was saying about Tyson. He said Norton hit harder. like GTFO. You could tell he was full of **** too, trying to find other ways to describe Mike and not give him his dues.


Lord, good call about Hatton.

Whether its knockouts, wins or losses. Boxers usually seem to carry more verbal respect for those opponents they looked better against.

The_Demon
02-16-2012, 05:50 PM
Wepner fought George when George only had a few fights, while Liston was obviously a fully developed (though past his prime) fighter. Whenever fighter A is KOd faster or more decisively by fighter B than he was fighter C, he will tell everyone C was the harder puncher.

Foreman was a harder and heavier puncher than Liston, while Sonny was the better puncher.

Its generally true,Briggs said VK hit harder than Foreman and Lewis

them_apples
02-16-2012, 06:26 PM
Its generally true,Briggs said VK hit harder than Foreman and Lewis

Yet he took Vitalis punches in stride. Lewis merked him Foreman had him running for his life.

Lostlinka
02-16-2012, 06:27 PM
It's too close to call but i'd give it to Liston because he's my all time fav ...

Ultimately, both Liston and Foreman were beasts in the ring, the force they both had looked immense, their whole demeanour was brutal. I don't think i've ever seen such an intimadating boxer as Liston with his glare, the power was just part of the package.

Comparisons, Chuck Wepners comment has been highlighted. Also, Ali himself commented on Listons supreme power over Foremans, but maybe this was more of his poetic mastery talking.

Skip to 5:09 on the vid and see what Ali says:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfdoH1kJfOY&list=FLTNNmlRU9h_HDwqO2-57b5Q&index=5&feature=plpp_video

Cardinal Buck
02-16-2012, 08:03 PM
Yet he took Vitalis punches in stride. Lewis merked him Foreman had him running for his life.

If you wanna say the Lewis thing fine, but the Foreman part is a nonpoint. Vitali broke Shannon's face.

Ziggy Stardust
02-16-2012, 08:12 PM
If you wanna say the Lewis thing fine, but the Foreman part is a nonpoint. Vitali broke Shannon's face.

And Lewis broke Vitali's face.

Cardinal Buck
02-16-2012, 08:40 PM
And Lewis broke Vitali's face.

That's a nice zinger, but Shannon's face was actually broken...as in, bones were broken.

Ziggy Stardust
02-16-2012, 08:42 PM
That's a nice zinger, but Shannon's face was actually broken...as in, bones were broken.

As was Vitali's.....a great big menstruating face vagina broke open on Vitali's face.

Poet

Sugarj
02-17-2012, 06:24 AM
As was Vitali's.....a great big menstruating face vagina broke open on Vitali's face.

Poet


Lord! That woke me up. Ha ha

them_apples
02-17-2012, 06:17 PM
If you wanna say the Lewis thing fine, but the Foreman part is a nonpoint. Vitali broke Shannon's face.

And Vitali literally hit him 1000+ times more right his right cross. who wouldn't have a broken face. That's not power.

BattlingNelson
02-17-2012, 07:02 PM
And Lewis broke Vitali's face.
With an interpretation like that you can also say that Briggs skull cracked open, defragmentated and brains splattered as far as the 10th row.

Ziggy Stardust
02-17-2012, 07:12 PM
With an interpretation like that you can also say that Briggs skull cracked open, defragmentated and brains splattered as far as the 10th row.

It did, but that was when Briggs fought Lennox I'm afraid.....

Poet

BattlingNelson
02-17-2012, 07:14 PM
It did, but that was when Briggs fought Lennox I'm afraid.....

Poet
Touché, but try watching Vitali-Briggs and come back here when you are finished.

Ziggy Stardust
02-17-2012, 07:28 PM
Touché, but try watching Vitali-Briggs and come back here when you are finished.

Seen it. Been there done that. Got to see someone who couldn't get a completely washed-up Briggs out of there. Pathetic.

Poet

TAC602
02-17-2012, 08:21 PM
Poet, I dont always agree with your takes (particularly on Tyson), but I've gotta say... Dark Side of the Moon avi, now Gretzky. Bowie in the sig.

Win, Win, Win. :beerchug:

Ziggy Stardust
02-17-2012, 08:23 PM
Poet, I dont always agree with your takes (particularly on Tyson), but I've gotta say... Dark Side of the Moon avi, now Gretzky. Bowie in the sig.

Win, Win, Win. :beerchug:

:chuckle9: My take on Tyson probably isn't as draconian as you think :hahahaha9:

Poet

joseph5620
02-17-2012, 08:43 PM
If you wanna say the Lewis thing fine, but the Foreman part is a nonpoint. Vitali broke Shannon's face.

Foreman did break Briggs nose.

nomadman
02-17-2012, 08:52 PM
Its generally true,Briggs said VK hit harder than Foreman and Lewis

Not to mention all the opponents who beat Shavers.

TAC602
02-17-2012, 09:03 PM
:chuckle9: My take on Tyson probably isn't as draconian as you think :hahahaha9:

Poet

Hah, probably not. It's all subjective.

I'd venture to say having him either inside the top 6 or outside the top 12 may be bias in either direction. Inside the top 3 reaches deep into fanboyism while outside 15 is draconian.

As a massive fan, he ranges 7-9 for me.

I think he's definitely suffered a backlash from people reacting to ridiculous comments by the more uneducated of his fan base. The fact that some of his most significant fights came post-prison hurts his standing as well. I'm not sure Holyfield isnt the outright antidote for any version of Mike, although things undoubtedly get more even if itd happened as scheduled in 1991.

Ziggy Stardust
02-17-2012, 09:18 PM
Hah, probably not. It's all subjective.

I'd venture to say having him either inside the top 6 or outside the top 12 may be bias in either direction. Inside the top 3 reaches deep into fanboyism while outside 15 is draconian.

As a massive fan, he ranges 7-9 for me.

I think he's definitely suffered a backlash from people reacting to ridiculous comments by the more uneducated of his fan base. The fact that some of his most significant fights came post-prison hurts his standing as well. I'm not sure Holyfield isnt the outright antidote for any version of Mike, although things undoubtedly get more even if itd happened as scheduled in 1991.

I have him around 9 or 10 myself. He's an ATG and hardly a bum by any stretch of the imagination. I only bring out the guns when his nuthuggers are acting up.....which isn't very often these days.

Poet

TAC602
02-17-2012, 11:37 PM
I have him around 9 or 10 myself. He's an ATG and hardly a bum by any stretch of the imagination. I only bring out the guns when his nuthuggers are acting up.....which isn't very often these days.

Poet

Plenty fair. Actually a favorable opinion if anything.

To the chagrin of a few, Tyson probably wont be a topic that ever truly dies out. While he's probably become doubly famous (or infamous) post-Bite Fight, people know him and the avenue to his legitimate boxing ability and credentials are right there to be discovered. The marketplace is saturated with memorabilia, documentaries, highlight videos, etc. He has the advantage of every fight being available, in color and free to view. He's a product of the excessive 1980s. I dont mean that in a bad way, but it was definitely the cultivation of media frenzy and the multi-millions. Even guys like Michael Jordan, Joe Montana, Lawrence Taylor, Wayne Gretzky are part of that group.

For me as a kid, the initial allure of Tyson was cut and dried: It was awesome seeing a short(er) manchild chopping down grown men who almost always stood 4-6 inches taller (not so important) and held exceptional reach advanatages (more significant) just about every time out. In some of those fights, he looks like a midget troll :lol1: - but the power and hand speed - especially the speed and comhinations for a heavyweight are all too tempting to get sucked into. All the KOs and black trunks no robe, marketing techniques by Jacobs/Cayton is just extra fodder. At the core was a phenomenal fighter who unfortunately rather quicky (at least in real time, not number of fights) devolved into a crude headhunter.

Barn
02-18-2012, 07:18 AM
Plenty fair. Actually a favorable opinion if anything.

To the chagrin of a few, Tyson probably wont be a topic that ever truly dies out. While he's probably become doubly famous (or infamous) post-Bite Fight, people know him and the avenue to his legitimate boxing ability and credentials are right there to be discovered. The marketplace is saturated with memorabilia, documentaries, highlight videos, etc. He has the advantage of every fight being available, in color and free to view. He's a product of the excessive 1980s. I dont mean that in a bad way, but it was definitely the cultivation of media frenzy and the multi-millions. Even guys like Michael Jordan, Joe Montana, Lawrence Taylor, Wayne Gretzky are part of that group.

For me as a kid, the initial allure of Tyson was cut and dried: It was awesome seeing a short(er) manchild chopping down grown men who almost always stood 4-6 inches taller (not so important) and held exceptional reach advanatages (more significant) just about every time out. In some of those fights, he looks like a midget troll :lol1: - but the power and hand speed - especially the speed and comhinations for a heavyweight are all too tempting to get sucked into. All the KOs and black trunks no robe, marketing techniques by Jacobs/Cayton is just extra fodder. At the core was a phenomenal fighter who unfortunately rather quicky (at least in real time, not number of fights) devolved into a crude headhunter.

Poor Larry Sims getting no love around here.

TAC602
02-18-2012, 05:06 PM
Poor Larry Sims getting no love around here.

:lol1:

Ah, thats correct.

Although I dont watch too many Tyson fights prior to Berbick these days - and literally none post-Holyfield II. Got a set from the guys over at mike-tyson-dvd.com who put together good stuff for a great price compared to the generic career sets found on other sites. Plenty of interviews, training footage, docs.

Ziggy Stardust
02-18-2012, 05:22 PM
:lol1:

Ah, thats correct.

Although I dont watch too many Tyson fights prior to Berbick these days - and literally none post-Holyfield II. Got a set from the guys over at mike-tyson-dvd.com who put together good stuff for a great price compared to the generic career sets found on other sites. Plenty of interviews, training footage, docs.

Sh1t, I could have given you his career set for free.....as long as you didn't mind burning them to DVD yourself lol :cool9:

Poet

them_apples
02-25-2012, 12:05 AM
:lol1:

Ah, thats correct.

Although I dont watch too many Tyson fights prior to Berbick these days - and literally none post-Holyfield II. Got a set from the guys over at mike-tyson-dvd.com who put together good stuff for a great price compared to the generic career sets found on other sites. Plenty of interviews, training footage, docs.

Although Tyson was Basically just slugging, he landed some ferocious body shots on Ruddock. Ferocious. He would have gave Bowee a nice fight even in his "slugger" days, win or lose.