View Full Version : Is Roberto Duran the greatest lightweight Head to Head


kendom
02-06-2012, 05:17 PM
So recently thinking about Durans place at lightweight in terms of resume and accomplishments. However H2H can you pick another lightweight above him. It might be Benny Leonard but not so sure

Thoughts?

Barn
02-06-2012, 05:25 PM
Damn hard to find Leonard footage.

I always thought Gans did look very, very good for his era.

I wouldn't mind most ATG LW's to be declared as the best H2H. They all look awesome.

Ray Corso
02-06-2012, 05:51 PM
As a Lightweight Duran was at his best weight and could compete against the best from any era. He is one of my favorite fighters but at lightweight not any of the other classes after the first Leonard fight. If he would have retired after the Leonard fight he would be considered one of the smartest too!
As for some people to box against that could fight right with him!
Bea Jack
Canzoneri
Ross
Armstrong
Sammy Angott
Bob Montgomery
"Ike" Williams
.........theres others but off the top of my head these would sell the gate against Roberto and every closed circuit and HBO would need to up grade everything they do. Can you imagine ;;
Robert Duran vs Henry Armstrong.....15 Rounds!
Ray.

IronDanHamza
02-06-2012, 07:29 PM
Arguably, yes.

Duran has a legit chance at beating anyone over a series of 3 fights at Lightweight.

NChristo
02-06-2012, 07:58 PM
Way too many greats at lightweight and too many things to factor in to make a h2h list, I find it impossible :dunno:, same with the other thread, how someone can make a top 10 list of the best h2h over all weight classes is beyond me, tis just ridiculously hard and too confusing to make because of everything you need too think about and factor in.

Young Money
02-06-2012, 11:02 PM
I always thought Benny Leonard would be clever enough to find a way to win.

If Ray Leonard could take him out of his mental game I'm sure as hell Benny Leonard could.

69Lover
02-07-2012, 10:21 AM
Its so funny in the history section, imo everything about the Question in this thread is already said:)

I do not know enough of the older former Lightweight Greats, but Duran, my favorite Fighter, has a legitimate chance to beat them all, because of his style, which evaluated after with his progressing. He could throw every punch, could adapt to most style and if he was focused enough he was a force. Stylewise he only had problems against the likes of fighters, for me they were stinkers, like Virute, Leonard II, Laing and Benitez. Most of these were defensive first fighters and wanted to frustrate him.

In a "normal" classic boxingmatch, going toe to toe, with a exepction of Hearns (a Lightheavyweight trapped in the body of a welter), you do not have much chances agains Duran, who (1) knew to control the distance, (2) attacked from many angles, (3) was one of the best infighter, (4) a master feinter, (5) conservative while moving but exploding at the right time with enough stamina for 15 rounds, (6) and possessed the right attitude and heart (known famous Quotes: "There is only one legend that's me"; "I am not god, but something very similiar").

From what I have saw from the former greats, I would suggest that a superb fighter Armstrong (imagine him training with modern methods!) has a good chance of going toe to toe with Duran. I could imagine, that the first big mistake could end the fight or just the better daily performance of the fighter.

I do not know anthying about Benny Leonard (just the Wiki articel), but as a counterpuncher you could have good chances, if you can impress Duran with your power and if you have a high ring IQ.

I do not see Whitaker wining against Duran, because he wasn't powerfull enough, even he was a good bodypuncher. He didn't have the offensive qualities, even if he didn't lost a round in his prime. Imo you need more than just wining a round to impress Duran, and most of the Whitaker fights and his wins were solid but not impressiv (his resumee was, but not for me looking into the details).

I am not much of Oscar Fan, but he had some tools which could make it a good fight interesting. His height advantage would be his biggest advantage.

I do not give "the modern greats" like Shane Mosley or Floyd much chances. Not against a focused Duran from the Carlos Palomino fight.


With best regards,
69Lover:arabia:

joseph5620
02-07-2012, 12:50 PM
Its so funny in the history section, imo everything about the Question in this thread is already said:)

I do not know enough of the older former Lightweight Greats, but Duran, my favorite Fighter, has a legitimate chance to beat them all, because of his style, which evaluated after with his progressing. He could throw every punch, could adapt to most style and if he was focused enough he was a force. Stylewise he only had problems against the likes of fighters, for me they were stinkers, like Virute, Leonard II, Laing and Benitez. Most of these were defensive first fighters and wanted to frustrate him.

In a "normal" classic boxingmatch, going toe to toe, with a exepction of Hearns (a Lightheavyweight trapped in the body of a welter), you do not have much chances agains Duran, who (1) knew to control the distance, (2) attacked from many angles, (3) was one of the best infighter, (4) a master feinter, (5) conservative while moving but exploding at the right time with enough stamina for 15 rounds, (6) and possessed the right attitude and heart (known famous Quotes: "There is only one legend that's me"; "I am not god, but something very similiar").

From what I have saw from the former greats, I would suggest that a superb fighter Armstrong (imagine him training with modern methods!) has a good chance of going toe to toe with Duran. I could imagine, that the first big mistake could end the fight or just the better daily performance of the fighter.

I do not know anthying about Benny Leonard (just the Wiki articel), but as a counterpuncher you could have good chances, if you can impress Duran with your power and if you have a high ring IQ.

I do not see Whitaker wining against Duran, because he wasn't powerfull enough, even he was a good bodypuncher. He didn't have the offensive qualities, even if he didn't lost a round in his prime. Imo you need more than just wining a round to impress Duran, and most of the Whitaker fights and his wins were solid but not impressiv (his resumee was, but not for me looking into the details).
I am not much of Oscar Fan, but he had some tools which could make it a good fight interesting. His height advantage would be his biggest advantage.

I do not give "the modern greats" like Shane Mosley or Floyd much chances. Not against a focused Duran from the Carlos Palomino fight.


With best regards,
69Lover:arabia:

Explain please........

Ziggy Stardust
02-07-2012, 01:25 PM
Explain please........

I think it's probably a power thing.....

Ray Corso
02-07-2012, 01:28 PM
If someone doesn't know of Armstrong or Williams or the rest I don't know how their opinion is worth much here. These fighters were the equal to Durans status and thats a fact. Because someone wasn't there to see or theres little footage doesn't discount them from the topic. People need to research these tremendous fighters so that their better versed when making an opinion. Everyone is entitled to voice their opinions but people that have the facts and knowledge in the history of boxing have more credibilty with their opinions.
69lover; the points and credits you gave that Duran was capable of are some of the same attributes the fighters I mentioned maintained also. Boxing abilities is pretty much Benny L. agressive attitude I think Mr. Armstrong and Mr. Jack practicly invented it, and were very good at it. The modern day boxer your considering as legit opponents for Roberto are not in the same league as the fighters I mentioned. Also Durans greatness was at Lightweight you seem to only know him as a welter.
Yoiu could mention heavyweights for that matter last I saw Roberto he was one!!! Great fighter in the ring with great trainers and teachers that had ALOT to do with his maturation. Outside the ring, well I'll say its different. Ray

69Lover
02-07-2012, 02:55 PM
Explain please........

Whitaker outboxed his opponents first, he was the superior boxer, the guy who is driving the faster and better car. Duran on the other hand was more versatile and gave (me) different impressions. He outboxed, outsluggt and destroyed his opponents. It is a power thing, yes (thx poet). Its more of personal opinion, and I have chosen the wrong words for that. I love Whitakers fights and his style, like Ali, but I am more of a Frazier, Tyson type of guy.

I really don't know if Whitaker had much chances against a prime Lightweight Duran (post 1975). I would give Whitaker better chances as a welter, but even than Duran would be the stronger guy if he trains like an animal and stays motivated.
I know that many would refer to the Whitaker vs. Chavez fight as a comparison, but I don't see Chavez in a league with Duran, who was a much better boxer and had way more weapons. Imo mainly becuase of this fight manny guys see advantages for Whitaker.

@Ray: thx for the words and for the teaching. I look forward to any insides and any knowledge you have.
I have watched all fights of Duran, which was accessible for me via Youtube and Boxingscene, not just the "classics" post 1980.

Maybe it wasn't right to mix the different stages of Durans carrer, but he evolved with the time and adapted more to the weightclasses, while he used controlled aggression as a lightweight. This controlled aggression would give him more advantages against Whitaker, than his controlled defensive style like in the Hagler fight. But it showed that he was versatile and therefore he is possibly the greatest lightweight head to head.

with best regards,
69Lover

joseph5620
02-07-2012, 03:21 PM
I think it's probably a power thing.....

Probably. Some people are not as impressed by fighters unless they have a large number of KO's on their records.

joseph5620
02-07-2012, 03:23 PM
Whitaker outboxed his opponents first, he was the superior boxer, the guy who is driving the faster and better car. Duran on the other hand was more versatile and gave (me) different impressions. He outboxed, outsluggt and destroyed his opponents. It is a power thing, yes (thx poet). Its more of personal opinion, and I have chosen the wrong words for that. I love Whitakers fights and his style, like Ali, but I am more of a Frazier, Tyson type of guy.

I really don't know if Whitaker had much chances against a prime Lightweight Duran (post 1975). I would give Whitaker better chances as a welter, but even than Duran would be the stronger guy if he trains like an animal and stays motivated.
I know that many would refer to the Whitaker vs. Chavez fight as a comparison, but I don't see Chavez in a league with Duran, who was a much better boxer and had way more weapons. Imo mainly becuase of this fight manny guys see advantages for Whitaker.

@Ray: thx for the words and for the teaching. I look forward to any insides and any knowledge you have.
I have watched all fights of Duran, which was accessible for me via Youtube and Boxingscene, not just the "classics" post 1980.

Maybe it wasn't right to mix the different stages of Durans carrer, but he evolved with the time and adapted more to the weightclasses, while he used controlled aggression as a lightweight. This controlled aggression would give him more advantages against Whitaker, than his controlled defensive style like in the Hagler fight. But it showed that he was versatile and therefore he is possibly the greatest lightweight head to head.

with best regards,
69Lover

Understood. Thanks.

Barn
02-07-2012, 04:14 PM
With regards to the power thing. I think it's fair to say that Pernell Whitaker won't have the power to keep Duran at bay. However, he could smart his way to a decision. My money would still be on Duran though.

BennyST
02-08-2012, 09:35 AM
Yeah, in general, I don't and never have really, regarded the "He doesn't have enough power to keep him off" argument as valid at all at the top level. Any fighter, when they have gotten to true championship status (I am not in any way, at all, talking about BS 'champions' like Malignaggi or David Diaz or other ****e like that), will have enough power and savvy to keep the other guy honest.

Think about Locche and Whitaker for two classic examples. Oscar vs a past his best (though not shot by any means) Whitaker and many thought said that Oscar's power would ruin him and that Oscar would just walk through everything. Did Whitaker even get hurt and did Oscar walk through anything? Nup.

whitaker had plenty of snap to keep Duran from 'walking through him' in my opinion. Very few champions have been able to 'walk through' other champs of a similar caliber and Whitaker was of the very greatest caliber. No one is walking through him.

Hell, even Tito had real trouble walking through him, and this was vs a guy who was shot, old, and only 5'6" (supposedly with no power at all either) vs Tito who was 5'11"- 6 foot straight and a power monster in his prime and he still couldn't walk through him. Tried his best though.

joseph5620
02-08-2012, 12:36 PM
Yeah, in general, I don't and never have really, regarded the "He doesn't have enough power to keep him off" argument as valid at all at the top level. Any fighter, when they have gotten to true championship status (I am not in any way, at all, talking about BS 'champions' like Malignaggi or David Diaz or other ****e like that), will have enough power and savvy to keep the other guy honest.

Think about Locche and Whitaker for two classic examples. Oscar vs a past his best (though not shot by any means) Whitaker and many thought said that Oscar's power would ruin him and that Oscar would just walk through everything. Did Whitaker even get hurt and did Oscar walk through anything? Nup.

whitaker had plenty of snap to keep Duran from 'walking through him' in my opinion. Very few champions have been able to 'walk through' other champs of a similar caliber and Whitaker was of the very greatest caliber. No one is walking through him.

Hell, even Tito had real trouble walking through him, and this was vs a guy who was shot, old, and only 5'6" (supposedly with no power at all either) vs Tito who was 5'11"- 6 foot straight and a power monster in his prime and he still couldn't walk through him. Tried his best though.

Excellent points.