View Full Version : Could Folley have taken a dive VS Ali


Tiozzo
01-29-2012, 10:42 PM
Go to 9:10.

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I don't know, something looks fishy, those 2 punches weren't that hard, particularly the one that sent him down, and when fighters fall on their face, they're usually out cold, Folley is not.

I feel he could have taken a dive, and that wouldn't have been a first with Liston a while back.

Scott9945
01-29-2012, 10:58 PM
I'm not particularly suspicious. Foley was well past his prime and Ali basically toyed with him. I consider it legit.

BigStereotype
01-30-2012, 12:26 AM
Why would you fix a fight so that the favorite wins? That's a terrible way to make money.

Tiozzo
01-30-2012, 12:28 AM
Why would you fix a fight so that the favorite wins? That's a terrible way to make money.

I'm not saying the fight was fixed. Just that Folley looked like a guy looking for a way out in a fight he could not win.

BigStereotype
01-30-2012, 12:28 AM
I'm not saying the fight was fixed. Just that Folley looked like a guy looking for a way out in a fight he could not win.

Oh alright. Well. I can't say.

Boxing Bob
01-30-2012, 12:51 AM
Tiozzo, the correct meaning of taking a dive is when you agree to get KOed before the bell rings. Usually for gambling purposes. I realize that is not your intent here. To answer the question the punch didn't look like it warrented the reaction from Foley, but then again I didn't get hit with it,LOL

Tiozzo
01-30-2012, 07:23 AM
Tiozzo, the correct meaning of taking a dive is when you agree to get KOed before the bell rings. Usually for gambling purposes. I realize that is not your intent here. To answer the question the punch didn't look like it warrented the reaction from Foley, but then again I didn't get hit with it,LOL

I see. What is the correct expression here ? Throw a fight ? I'd like to know.

Val Head
01-30-2012, 07:29 AM
Folley was a really good fighter and that was two flush right hands on the button,the second one of which he never saw coming and obviously he was barragged all fight and his heart wasn't in it....
I don't think he fell down voluntarily but i think he took the ko punches in a giving up sort of way like he didn't want to see them coming...

anyways you should look at Martinez vs Darren Barker that amazes me how Barker went down... didn't seem legit

New England
01-30-2012, 08:50 AM
Go to 9:10.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/VFFDe9FQL3s" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I don't know, something looks fishy, those 2 punches weren't that hard, particularly the one that sent him down, and when fighters fall on their face, they're usually out cold, Folley is not.

I feel he could have taken a dive, and that wouldn't have been a first with Liston a while back.



about 15-20 seconds before that he hits him with a right hand that folley clearly didnt see and it snapped his head back


if you look at his legs after that shot they look like they're not behaving exactly how they should


and then of course he hits him with a double right hand

you cant react to the second one the way you reacted to the first one if it hits you hard enough

i'll also say that ali had a ton of snap on his punches, and shouldnt be considered a powder puff puncher, even if he wasnt a real hitter at HW

BennyST
01-30-2012, 09:03 AM
Go to 9:10.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/VFFDe9FQL3s" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I don't know, something looks fishy, those 2 punches weren't that hard, particularly the one that sent him down, and when fighters fall on their face, they're usually out cold, Folley is not.

I feel he could have taken a dive, and that wouldn't have been a first with Liston a while back.

The Liston one really, really annoys me. People just repeat it ad nauseam without ever really checking it out. Liston did not, let me repeat that, DID NOT, take a dive. You can see it in slow-mo replays of the fight, which is always why I've considered so ****ing frustrating that people repeat he took a dive. It's right there in front of your goddamned face! You can see his whole head, neck and upper back spasm from the punch.

The only question is not whether he took a dive, but whether he was just too done in to get back up and fight on. When you've just been hit by such a punch though, I can see why he didn't get back up.

It was definitely no dive though. Just watch his upper back. It literally ripples with the power from the punch through his chin to neck to upper back. What more could you ask for? Just watch the video and never repeat that it was a dive again.
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Not only that, if you are still too much of an unbeliever, just watch Ali's arm/bicep and man-boob. You can see the impact travel up his arm and quite truly travel through his man-boob from the top to the bottom from the impact. It's incredible! If you still think there was any dive after seeing it first hand, you have no hope.

Do someone people really think he missed? Tiozzo? Please don't tell me you do too?

Val Head
01-30-2012, 09:15 AM
The Liston one really, really annoys me. People just repeat it ad nauseam without ever really checking it out. Liston did not, let me repeat that, DID NOT, take a dive. You can see it in slow-mo replays of the fight, which is always why I've considered so ****ing frustrating that people repeat he took a dive. It's right there in front of your goddamned face! You can see his whole head, neck and upper back spasm from the punch.

The only question is not whether he took a dive, but whether he was just too done in to get back up and fight on. When you've just been hit by such a punch though, I can see why he didn't get back up.

It was definitely no dive though. Just watch his upper back. It literally ripples with the power from the punch through his chin to neck to upper back. What more could you ask for? Just watch the video and never repeat that it was a dive again.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/prxnGjKjxoo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Not only that, if you are still too much of an unbeliever, just watch Ali's arm/bicep and man-boob. You can see the impact travel up his arm and quite truly travel through his man-boob from the top to the bottom from the impact. It's incredible! If you still think there was any dive after seeing it first hand, you have no hope.

Do someone people really think he missed? Tiozzo? Please don't tell me you do too?

Its obvious tht the Liston one was real and yes i noticed the ripple effect in normal motion and have argued this before but morons claim its fake

Ray Corso
01-30-2012, 11:56 AM
Many times Ali was looking to drop a right hand over the jab especially with an opponent that "fell into him"! The jab comes out the head goes down slightly and the peripheral vision is eliminated. Joe Louis was always looking for this set up so the short right hand over the top of the jab was extremely effective again with your opponent stepping to you they have limited to no balance to be able to accept a punch on the jaw or to the temple.
When a fighter falls forward they are usually hurt badly, or their equilibrium is shaken to not allow them to recover in time to continue.
It looks to me that both Zora and Sonny suffered the same consequence from the same set up and punch. Ali had a great little right hand over the top he pronated it and when he added the shoulder it had snap to it. You could see Sonnys body roll from the effectiveness.
To be able to catch your opponent coming to you flush on the chin, jaw or temple is about as effective of a measure you can work for. Great punch! Ray

Tiozzo
01-30-2012, 04:02 PM
The Liston one really, really annoys me. People just repeat it ad nauseam without ever really checking it out. Liston did not, let me repeat that, DID NOT, take a dive. You can see it in slow-mo replays of the fight, which is always why I've considered so ****ing frustrating that people repeat he took a dive. It's right there in front of your goddamned face! You can see his whole head, neck and upper back spasm from the punch.

The only question is not whether he took a dive, but whether he was just too done in to get back up and fight on. When you've just been hit by such a punch though, I can see why he didn't get back up.

It was definitely no dive though. Just watch his upper back. It literally ripples with the power from the punch through his chin to neck to upper back. What more could you ask for? Just watch the video and never repeat that it was a dive again.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/prxnGjKjxoo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Not only that, if you are still too much of an unbeliever, just watch Ali's arm/bicep and man-boob. You can see the impact travel up his arm and quite truly travel through his man-boob from the top to the bottom from the impact. It's incredible! If you still think there was any dive after seeing it first hand, you have no hope.

Do someone people really think he missed? Tiozzo? Please don't tell me you do too?

don't get excited friend... your opinion is not fact

cool down

phantom punch is not a good way to describe what happened, and I always knew Ali had landed, but not with a KO type punch

there are many reasons to believe Liston took a dive (or whatever you people call it)

- Liston took much better shots in the first fight, many of which in combos

- the punch doesn't look hard, though it lands, and even if it was hard enough to floor Liston taking into account that it is a pullcounter nicely executed that may have caught Liston by surprise and off balance, Liston rolling on his back with his eyes wide open is not really convincing, he should have been able to get up

-Ali over Liston ''Get up, nobody's going to believe this'' (Ali knew with how much power he connected with, reminds me of Vitali over Solis)

-many rumors/witnesses saying Liston was threatened by the powerful crew behind Ali during those years


I suggest you watch the documentary on Liston's life and career, his wife and other people involved believe/say Liston was threatened, scared and took a dive for that reason

Tiozzo
01-30-2012, 04:05 PM
Many times Ali was looking to drop a right hand over the jab especially with an opponent that "fell into him"! The jab comes out the head goes down slightly and the peripheral vision is eliminated. Joe Louis was always looking for this set up so the short right hand over the top of the jab was extremely effective again with your opponent stepping to you they have limited to no balance to be able to accept a punch on the jaw or to the temple.
When a fighter falls forward they are usually hurt badly, or their equilibrium is shaken to not allow them to recover in time to continue.
It looks to me that both Zora and Sonny suffered the same consequence from the same set up and punch. Ali had a great little right hand over the top he pronated it and when he added the shoulder it had snap to it. You could see Sonnys body roll from the effectiveness.
To be able to catch your opponent coming to you flush on the chin, jaw or temple is about as effective of a measure you can work for. Great punch! Ray

I like the technical aspects you cover with this post