View Full Version : Am I losing it?


BennyST
01-09-2012, 02:53 AM
After reading one of those old Duran threads that got bumped, I went and watched some video of his on youtube and there was some guy arguing that he couldn't understand how Duran got the decision in the first Leonard fight. He argued that Leonard landed all the clean punches, was the effective aggressor and took all the rounds through the last third of the fight i.e. 10-15 while Duran just faded and did nothing.

I had a bit of a giggle and said "How does that work? It's pretty clear that Duran won 10-13, give or take and that round 13 was a microcosm of that whole fight" being that Duran landed the cleaner, harder punches, controlled the fight and won it going forward and backward, in that round anyway.

Then I was told that he had Leonard winning that round as did two of the three judges and that I was clearly blind. I rewatched it, then rewatched it again, and again. All I see is Duran beating Leonard, especially in that round, quite clearly. Not only does he land a few brutal shots with the left hook, straight right etc, but then when Leonard pushes him back against the ropes and tries to be the aggressor Duran beats him fighting off the ropes, catching him with short shots to the body and head. The only thing close in that round is the last 20 seconds when they trade shots and Leonard gives as good as he gets landing some nice hooks and some excellent body shots. Still, it probably equalled about one shot to every five for Duran.

The round starts at 5.00 exactly. Duran catches him with that beautiful feint combo, with the right to the body and then left hook upstairs at around 5.20 in the corner, then he slips of couple of Leonard counters. The next significant punch is a Duran left hook that catches Leonard while he is punching at about the 6 min mark. They brawl and maul a bit, with nothing major landing, then Duran lands a picture perfect lead right at 6.40, then Leonard lands his first clean punch of the round with his own lead right just after. They then trade a few punches more, with Duran getting the better shots again, though nothing major. Leonard then pushes Duran back to the ropes and tries to brawl him but gets countered and beaten beautifully off the ropes from about 7.05 to 7.15. Then they trade more or less equally to the end of the round, Duran landing maybe more shots but Leonard lands a lot of good clean shots too.

How do you guys see this? I can't honestly understand anyone saying this could be a Leonard round, but with two judges giving it to him plus some dude on youtube saying I'm blind, I thought I need to see if I'm mistaken?

Is it a case of Leonard's flashy combos making people think he was actually landing or were they just missing the better, more consistent work of Duran? I'm lost.

Go to 5.00
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Barn
01-09-2012, 03:40 AM
I had it 8-6-1 Duran myself. Close but, clear.

BennyST
01-09-2012, 03:46 AM
I had it 8-6-1 Duran myself. Close but, clear.

Yeah, that seems about right. I think I had a similar score except instead of an even round I had another for Duran, from memory.

What about the 13th round in particular though?

Barn
01-09-2012, 03:57 AM
Yeah, that seems about right. I think I had a similar score except instead of an even round I had another for Duran, from memory.

What about the 13th round in particular though?
Can't remember my scorecard but watching it there definitely a Duran round.

NChristo
01-09-2012, 11:04 AM
Watched this fight easily 40+ times, my favourite ever, don't think I've ever scored it once for Ray Leonard, Duran won clearly.
Round 13 imo was pretty clearly Duran's round as well, Duran controlled the whole round and although Leonard had his patches where he looked good you don't win the round based on 10 or 20 seconds of it and even in them patches Duran nearly always came back with something as good if not better, wouldn't worry too much about what people on YouTube say.

bojangles1987
01-09-2012, 11:39 AM
I guess I might be losing it too, because I completely agree. There's no way IMO Leonard can be given that fight. Of course people have always been impressed by Leonard's flashy combos, regardless of whether they land or do anything.

Ray Corso
01-09-2012, 12:31 PM
I had Roberto winning this fight but I enjoyed Leonard putting a solid effort forward. He became a pro that night in my opinion and Roberto showed glimpses of how he fought as a lightweight. Roberto was an excellant lightweight and up to 145lbs but above that weight he used his experience to win because the body couldn't respond like it could at 145! As for Leonard he came to his fights in shape and ready to compete for the most part. Everyone involved with the Leonard career did a good job preparing him throughout his boxing time. Ray


when you have Mr. Brown and Mr. Arcell in your corner and teaching you, the chances for success are pretty good. Great boxing minds!

Rip Chudd
01-09-2012, 12:43 PM
I guess I might be losing it too, because I completely agree. There's no way IMO Leonard can be given that fight. Of course people have always been impressed by Leonard's flashy combos, regardless of whether they land or do anything.


That's called the "Calzaghe"

raf727
01-09-2012, 04:56 PM
That's called the "Calzaghe"

haha





i agree though, duran especially took this round, and i thought the fight. then again, i am not a boxing judge, and scoring is extremely subjective.

Sugarj
01-09-2012, 05:33 PM
After reading one of those old Duran threads that got bumped, I went and watched some video of his on youtube and there was some guy arguing that he couldn't understand how Duran got the decision in the first Leonard fight. He argued that Leonard landed all the clean punches, was the effective aggressor and took all the rounds through the last third of the fight i.e. 10-15 while Duran just faded and did nothing.

I had a bit of a giggle and said "How does that work? It's pretty clear that Duran won 10-13, give or take and that round 13 was a microcosm of that whole fight" being that Duran landed the cleaner, harder punches, controlled the fight and won it going forward and backward, in that round anyway.

Then I was told that he had Leonard winning that round as did two of the three judges and that I was clearly blind. I rewatched it, then rewatched it again, and again. All I see is Duran beating Leonard, especially in that round, quite clearly. Not only does he land a few brutal shots with the left hook, straight right etc, but then when Leonard pushes him back against the ropes and tries to be the aggressor Duran beats him fighting off the ropes, catching him with short shots to the body and head. The only thing close in that round is the last 20 seconds when they trade shots and Leonard gives as good as he gets landing some nice hooks and some excellent body shots. Still, it probably equalled about one shot to every five for Duran.

The round starts at 5.00 exactly. Duran catches him with that beautiful feint combo, with the right to the body and then left hook upstairs at around 5.20 in the corner, then he slips of couple of Leonard counters. The next significant punch is a Duran left hook that catches Leonard while he is punching at about the 6 min mark. They brawl and maul a bit, with nothing major landing, then Duran lands a picture perfect lead right at 6.40, then Leonard lands his first clean punch of the round with his own lead right just after. They then trade a few punches more, with Duran getting the better shots again, though nothing major. Leonard then pushes Duran back to the ropes and tries to brawl him but gets countered and beaten beautifully off the ropes from about 7.05 to 7.15. Then they trade more or less equally to the end of the round, Duran landing maybe more shots but Leonard lands a lot of good clean shots too.

How do you guys see this? I can't honestly understand anyone saying this could be a Leonard round, but with two judges giving it to him plus some dude on youtube saying I'm blind, I thought I need to see if I'm mistaken?

Is it a case of Leonard's flashy combos making people think he was actually landing or were they just missing the better, more consistent work of Duran? I'm lost.

Go to 5.00
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Yep, round 13 was a Duran round for me!

Leonard finished the last 20 seconds well, but it would take a very inexperienced judge to sway him the round.

I'm surprised all three judges gave that one to Leonard. That said it was his Montreal homecoming.......and even experienced judges have been known to sway towards the home fighter.

At the end of the day the right man won!!!

TBear
01-09-2012, 05:39 PM
At the time alot of people were saying that Leonard won. It was close but Duran took it.

Greatest1942
01-14-2012, 07:19 PM
I think its a case of people seeing those flashy combos. Most of them did not land or were ineffective...but it makes good viewing.

BennyST
01-14-2012, 09:47 PM
I think its a case of people seeing those flashy combos. Most of them did not land or were ineffective...but it makes good viewing.

That's what I was wondering...:thinking:

Nonetheless, it's so clear that Duran lands the better stuff, especially in that round, throughout until the last 20 seconds, but it had been such a clear round that the last 20 seconds couldn't have made any difference unless Leonard landed a monster bomb and staggered him or something. As it was, it was equal with both trading, landing and missing.

GJC
01-14-2012, 10:51 PM
Think as well Duran's head movement was so good that Leonard's punches were missing by fractions, I remember a lot of punches hitting Duran's hair but not him. Crowd in the nose bleeds sees it and roars and suddenly......
I remember someone mentioning in a similar thread mentioning a great uppercut of Leonard's and re watched the round and Duran blocked it with his elbows. Good showing from Leonard and a competetive fight but a clear Duran win

Boxing Bob
01-15-2012, 12:02 AM
I just watched the whole fight again 8-6-1 Duran for me also. Anytime someone on this boards favorite loses in any kind of close fashion the outrageous statements start coming. My personal favorites are the British fans who swear if you look close Hatton was really beating Mayweather. Theres also a regular poster who swears Whitaker wasn't ripped off vs Ramirez or Chavez

BennyST
01-15-2012, 10:55 AM
I just watched the whole fight again 8-6-1 Duran for me also. Anytime someone on this boards favorite loses in any kind of close fashion the outrageous statements start coming. My personal favorites are the British fans who swear if you look close Hatton was really beating Mayweather. Theres also a regular poster who swears Whitaker wasn't ripped off vs Ramirez or Chavez

Wasn't just the British fans on that one though. There were a lot of people, in general, and quite a lot of US experts, fans, judges etc that also saw that. Even Lederman had Hatton up before the Ko from memory, or even or something.

Mayweather had him under control from the start, and in reality dominated the fight. By the middle rounds it had become a case of not whether he would win, well for those who could actually see the real fight, but rather how good he could look doing it. Turned out to be magnificent.

Greatest1942
01-15-2012, 04:45 PM
Think as well Duran's head movement was so good that Leonard's punches were missing by fractions, I remember a lot of punches hitting Duran's hair but not him. Crowd in the nose bleeds sees it and roars and suddenly......
I remember someone mentioning in a similar thread mentioning a great uppercut of Leonard's and re watched the round and Duran blocked it with his elbows. Good showing from Leonard and a competetive fight but a clear Duran win

It was the wind up punch...it looked it landed, even the commentetors were fooled...in the slow mo it showed clearly that Duran just deflected it.

According to Arcel, Duran was a defensive marvel when he chose to be.

Barn
01-15-2012, 04:50 PM
It was the wind up punch...it looked it landed, even the commentetors were fooled...in the slow mo it showed clearly that Duran just deflected it.

According to Arcel, Duran was a defensive marvel when he chose to be.
Just look at the footage! No testimony from Arcel needed!

joseph5620
01-15-2012, 07:03 PM
Yeah, that seems about right. I think I had a similar score except instead of an even round I had another for Duran, from memory.

What about the 13th round in particular though?

Yeah, that seems about right. I think I had a similar score except instead of an even round I had another for Duran, from memory.

What about the 13th round in particular though?

Duran defintely won. But it was close and competitive. I am not surprised that some irrational fans scored it for Leonard. I've seen it. But I've also seen fans claiming Duran dominated the fight in a one sided way which he didn't.

TheGreatA
01-15-2012, 10:00 PM
Duran controlled the fight. He could not however deny Leonard's will and it made for a competitive fight, more competitive than it looked to be from the outset with Duran having his way and backing Leonard up against the ropes. Duran had to back off in the later rounds as Leonard showed heart, refused to go down and fired off combinations, some of which indeed missed, some of which atleast glanced off Duran. It was not enough. I don't think anyone at ringside, even Leonard, truly thought he had actually won the fight at the time, but he answered a lot of questions about his toughness even in losing.

I believe that Duran felt he had banked enough of the early rounds to allow him to coast late, but it came close to costing him as the judges were atrociously scoring nearly every round a draw. In the end he was awarded a close but clear decision win though.

joseph5620
01-15-2012, 10:24 PM
Duran controlled the fight. He could not however deny Leonard's will and it made for a competitive fight, more competitive than it looked to be from the outset with Duran having his way and backing Leonard up against the ropes. Duran had to back off in the later rounds as Leonard showed heart, refused to go down and fired off combinations, some of which indeed missed, some of which atleast glanced off Duran. It was not enough. I don't think anyone at ringside, even Leonard, truly thought he had actually won the fight at the time, but he answered a lot of questions about his toughness even in losing.

I believe that Duran felt he had banked enough of the early rounds to allow him to coast late, but it came close to costing him as the judges were atrociously scoring nearly every round a draw. In the end he was awarded a close but clear decision win though.

A lot of those combinations were scoring to Duran's body and were very hard.Not glancing blows.

TheGreatA
01-15-2012, 10:35 PM
A lot of those combinations were scoring to Duran's body and were very hard.Not glancing blows.

Which is why I said that some of them atleast glanced off him, which means they connected and were scoring blows. Duran did a good job avoiding the punches and taking away from the impact but he did not avoid everything. Leonard was too fast for that to happen. Fast enough that you almost have to watch the punches in slow motion to know whether they connected or not.

joseph5620
01-15-2012, 10:48 PM
Which is why I said that some of them atleast glanced off him, which means they connected and were scoring blows. Duran did a good job avoiding the punches and taking away from the impact but he did not avoid everything. Leonard was too fast for that to happen. Fast enough that you almost have to watch the punches in slow motion to know whether they connected or not.

I agree and I was in a hurry and didn't thoroughly read your prior post. My mistake.

BennyST
01-16-2012, 12:14 AM
A lot of those combinations were scoring to Duran's body and were very hard.Not glancing blows.

Yep, his best shots were to the body and it showed Leonard's underrated body punching. He landed some hellacious shots. It also showed that Dundee's original plan i.e. not the now supposed one of Leonard dancing and moving, but the original real one about making Duran back up (because he couldn't fight off the back foot) and going to the body (because he couldn't take it to the body) was very wrong on Dundee's part.

Whatever else happened in that fight, Duran and Leonard both showed mountains of toughness and grit.

It's got some of the best body punching from any fight in history from both guys in it. If you want to see a clinic on body punching there is no better fight to watch.

Hitman932
01-16-2012, 02:41 PM
Great round, clearly belonged to Duran.

So refreshing to watch 2 guys fight so hard on the inside yet keep it clean enough that they hardly needed a referee in the ring.