View Full Version : Robberies?


Welsh Jon
01-05-2012, 12:01 PM
In which of these fights would you consider that the rightful winner was outright robbed of victory?

Ad Wolgast KO 13 Mexican Joe Rivers (July 4 1912)

Lou Ambers UD15 Henry Armstrong II (Aug 22, 1939)

Joe Louis SD15 Jersey Joe Walcoltt I (December 5, 1947)

Muhammad Ali SD 12 Ken Norton II (September 10, 1973)

Michael Spinks UD 15 Larry Holmes I (September 21, 1985)

Sugar Ray Leonard SD12 Marvin Hagler (April 6, 1987)

Jose Luis Ramirez SD12 Pernell Whitaker (March 12, 1988)

Sugar Ray Leonard D12 Thomas Hearns II (June 12, 1989)

Julio Cesar Chavez KO 12 Meldrick Taylor I (March 17, 1990)

Julio Cesar Chavez D12 Pernell Whitaker (Sept. 10, 1993)

Evander Holyfield D12 Lennox Lewis I (March 13, 1999)

Shane Mosley UD12 Oscar De La Hoya II (Sept. 13, 2003)

Oscar De La Hoya UD12 Felix Sturm (June 5, 2004)

Joe Calzaghe SD12 Bernard Hopkins (April 19th 2008)

Manny Pacquiao MD12 Juan Manuel Marguez III (November 12, 2011)

Discuss

Flo_Raiden
01-05-2012, 12:11 PM
Whitaker against Ramirez and Chavez no doubt. Also Marquez and Hagler were outright robbed by the judges. Their fights should have been at least a draw or a win in their favor. Hearns was also jobbed as well.

Sugarj
01-05-2012, 01:52 PM
In which of these fights would you consider that the rightful winner was outright robbed of victory?

Ad Wolgast KO 13 Mexican Joe Rivers (July 4 1912)

Lou Ambers UD15 Henry Armstrong II (Aug 22, 1939)

Joe Louis SD15 Jersey Joe Walcoltt I (December 5, 1947)

Muhammad Ali SD 12 Ken Norton II (September 10, 1973)

Michael Spinks UD 15 Larry Holmes I (September 21, 1985)

Sugar Ray Leonard SD12 Marvin Hagler (April 6, 1987)

Jose Luis Ramirez SD12 Pernell Whitaker (March 12, 1988)

Sugar Ray Leonard D12 Thomas Hearns II (June 12, 1989)

Julio Cesar Chavez KO 12 Meldrick Taylor I (March 17, 1990)

Julio Cesar Chavez D12 Pernell Whitaker (Sept. 10, 1993)

Evander Holyfield D12 Lennox Lewis I (March 13, 1999)

Shane Mosley UD12 Oscar De La Hoya II (Sept. 13, 2003)

Oscar De La Hoya UD12 Felix Sturm (June 5, 2004)

Joe Calzaghe SD12 Bernard Hopkins (April 19th 2008)

Manny Pacquiao MD12 Juan Manuel Marguez III (November 12, 2011)

Discuss


Walcott probably deserved the decision over Louis first time round.

Spinks probably shaded Holmes first time round, but Holmes arguably should have been awarded the rematch.

I did shade the second Ali Norton match to Ali by virtue of the last round. Their third fight was more contentious.

Whitaker should have got the nod over Chavez.

A draw was fair in the Leonard vs Hearns rematch. Though I personally scored it by a round to Hearns.

Lewis was blatantly robbed in the first match with Holyfield.

Oscar should have got the decision in the rematch with Mosley.

Sturm should have been awarded the decision against Oscar.

Watching live I felt that Hopkins deserved the verdict against Calzaghe. But on rewatching I scored it for Joe.

Similar with Marquez. Watching live I felt that he clearly outpointed Pac. But on rewatching and scoring, he probably only shaded it by a round or two.

The other fights aren't fresh enough in memory.

As for the Chavez vs Taylor stoppage..................err tough call. No one really deserved to lose that fight, it was a classic.

slickhook
01-05-2012, 02:11 PM
Glenn Jacobs vs Mark Calloway I



Fixed

SBleeder
01-05-2012, 02:19 PM
In which of these fights would you consider that the rightful winner was outright robbed of victory?

Ad Wolgast KO 13 Mexican Joe Rivers (July 4 1912)

Lou Ambers UD15 Henry Armstrong II (Aug 22, 1939)

Joe Louis SD15 Jersey Joe Walcoltt I (December 5, 1947)

Muhammad Ali SD 12 Ken Norton II (September 10, 1973)

Michael Spinks UD 15 Larry Holmes I (September 21, 1985)

Sugar Ray Leonard SD12 Marvin Hagler (April 6, 1987)

Jose Luis Ramirez SD12 Pernell Whitaker (March 12, 1988)

Sugar Ray Leonard D12 Thomas Hearns II (June 12, 1989)

Julio Cesar Chavez KO 12 Meldrick Taylor I (March 17, 1990)

Julio Cesar Chavez D12 Pernell Whitaker (Sept. 10, 1993)

Evander Holyfield D12 Lennox Lewis I (March 13, 1999)

Shane Mosley UD12 Oscar De La Hoya II (Sept. 13, 2003)

Oscar De La Hoya UD12 Felix Sturm (June 5, 2004)

Joe Calzaghe SD12 Bernard Hopkins (April 19th 2008)

Manny Pacquiao MD12 Juan Manuel Marguez III (November 12, 2011)

Discuss
I bolded the fights which I consider robberies. The rest of them, I either felt were close enough to defer to the judges, or I actually agreed with the decision.

Chavez/Taylor was a completely appropriate stoppage.

lightsout_finit
01-05-2012, 02:35 PM
I notice a lot of people using the expression "close fight"

It doesn't matter how close a fight was if the outcome was predetermined.
That's what a robbery is........

For example manny/marquez 3 was NEVER going to be given to marquez unless he kod him. They only called it a MD to make things look less bias.......
:)

Scott9945
01-05-2012, 04:03 PM
In which of these fights would you consider that the rightful winner was outright robbed of victory?

Ad Wolgast KO 13 Mexican Joe Rivers (July 4 1912)

Lou Ambers UD15 Henry Armstrong II (Aug 22, 1939)

Joe Louis SD15 Jersey Joe Walcoltt I (December 5, 1947)

Muhammad Ali SD 12 Ken Norton II (September 10, 1973)

Michael Spinks UD 15 Larry Holmes I (September 21, 1985)

Sugar Ray Leonard SD12 Marvin Hagler (April 6, 1987)

Jose Luis Ramirez SD12 Pernell Whitaker (March 12, 1988)

Sugar Ray Leonard D12 Thomas Hearns II (June 12, 1989)

Julio Cesar Chavez KO 12 Meldrick Taylor I (March 17, 1990)

Julio Cesar Chavez D12 Pernell Whitaker (Sept. 10, 1993)

Evander Holyfield D12 Lennox Lewis I (March 13, 1999)

Shane Mosley UD12 Oscar De La Hoya II (Sept. 13, 2003)

Oscar De La Hoya UD12 Felix Sturm (June 5, 2004)

Joe Calzaghe SD12 Bernard Hopkins (April 19th 2008)

Manny Pacquiao MD12 Juan Manuel Marguez III (November 12, 2011)

Discuss


My selections in bold. I've never seen the first two fights listed.

Barn
01-05-2012, 04:04 PM
My selections in bold. I've never seen the first two fights listed.
This although I felt Pacquiao vs Marquez III was a blatant robbery.

IronDanHamza
01-05-2012, 04:27 PM
Harold Johnson-Willie Pastrano is more of a robbery than most of those examples.

Sugarj
01-05-2012, 05:08 PM
I forgot to comment on Leonard vs Hagler in my earlier post.

I've always scored that one to Leonard, I've never seen the controversy at all. Not a hope that Hagler won 6 of the rounds in that fight to my eyes.

joseph5620
01-05-2012, 05:22 PM
I forgot to comment on Leonard vs Hagler in my earlier post.

I've always scored that one to Leonard, I've never seen the controversy at all. Not a hope that Hagler won 6 of the rounds in that fight to my eyes.

I agree. Hagler clearly lost the first four and lost some others too. Hagler didn't get robbed no matter how much he complains today. Although one judge scored it for Leonard by too wide a margin.

Barn
01-05-2012, 05:36 PM
I agree. Hagler clearly lost the first four and lost some others too. Hagler didn't get robbed no matter how much he complains today. Although one judge scored it for Leonard by too wide a margin.
Hagler won 6-5-1!

I remember scoring round 3 for Hagler as well.

Welsh Jon
01-05-2012, 05:44 PM
Walcott probably deserved the decision over Louis first time round.

Spinks probably shaded Holmes first time round, but Holmes arguably should have been awarded the rematch.

I did shade the second Ali Norton match to Ali by virtue of the last round. Their third fight was more contentious.

Whitaker should have got the nod over Chavez.

A draw was fair in the Leonard vs Hearns rematch. Though I personally scored it by a round to Hearns.

Lewis was blatantly robbed in the first match with Holyfield.

Oscar should have got the decision in the rematch with Mosley.

Sturm should have been awarded the decision against Oscar.

Watching live I felt that Hopkins deserved the verdict against Calzaghe. But on rewatching I scored it for Joe.

Similar with Marquez. Watching live I felt that he clearly outpointed Pac. But on rewatching and scoring, he probably only shaded it by a round or two.

The other fights aren't fresh enough in memory.

As for the Chavez vs Taylor stoppage..................err tough call. No one really deserved to lose that fight, it was a classic.

I agree that Norton-Ali III was closer than the 2nd fight and that the 2nd Spinks fight looked more like a robbery but I feel the fights that I listed were the more historically significant ones. And were still close enough to be contentious.

As for Pac - JMM even though it may be tighter than it 1st seemed when you re-watch it I still don't see how it can be given to Pac.

Welsh Jon
01-05-2012, 05:46 PM
Harold Johnson-Willie Pastrano is more of a robbery than most of those examples.

Fair enough, but I haven't seen that one.

Any opinions on the fights I did list?

Welsh Jon
01-05-2012, 05:49 PM
Hagler won 6-5-1!

I remember scoring round 3 for Hagler as well.

Yeah I think Hagler just did enough to retain.

Not a robbery though. Just one that could have gone either way.

joseph5620
01-05-2012, 05:51 PM
Hagler won 6-5-1!

I remember scoring round 3 for Hagler as well.

LOL I won't argue with you Barn. I do agree the fight was close.

Scott9945
01-05-2012, 07:27 PM
This although I felt Pacquiao vs Marquez III was a blatant robbery.

I thought JMM won a close one, but there were at least three major fights that I saw last year with worse decisions.

Barn
01-05-2012, 07:33 PM
I thought JMM won a close one, but there were at least three major fights that I saw last year with worse decisions.
I scored it 8-4 to Marquez.

Put that into context with my scores of 114-113 to Pacquiao in the first fight and a draw in the second.

IronDanHamza
01-05-2012, 08:08 PM
Fair enough, but I haven't seen that one.

Any opinions on the fights I did list?

I consider most, if not all of those examples as robberies. Including Pacquaio-Marquez.

I've watched it over 5 times and it's an absolute robbery IMO.

I'd say the biggest robbery on the list is probably Whitaker-Ramirez.

Johnson-Pastrano is on youtube I believe, check it out when you can.

joseph5620
01-05-2012, 08:41 PM
I want to add Martinez-Cintron. That was one of the worse I've seen.

Scott9945
01-05-2012, 09:56 PM
I scored it 8-4 to Marquez.

Put that into context with my scores of 114-113 to Pacquiao in the first fight and a draw in the second.

I thought it was closer than Lara-Williams, Helenius-Chisora, and Sturm-Macklin should have been. Lara gave Williams a beating and Chisora won nine rounds minimum.

White_Knight
01-05-2012, 10:33 PM
I notice a lot of people using the expression "close fight"

It doesn't matter how close a fight was if the outcome was predetermined.
That's what a robbery is........

I think we are delving into the world of conspiracy theory here.

The Whitaker-Chavez fight is perhaps the only robbery on the list. I can't say this for certain, though, as there are a few fights I haven't seen.

And I feel the same way as the poster who said he is dumbfounded that so many think Hagler was robbed against Leonard.

Barn
01-06-2012, 05:52 AM
I don't mind if anyone scored it for Leonard, hence I wouldn't call it a robbery. Gotta be like 4 points the other way to be considered a Robbery.

Now Hagler vs Antufermo I was a robbery.

TBear
01-06-2012, 07:33 AM
I am suprised Spinks-Holmes I is in the orig list but not Spinks-Holmes II.

White_Knight
01-06-2012, 09:15 AM
Just watched the Sturm-De La Hoya fight. That may have been the biggest robbery I've ever seen.

Harry Balls
01-06-2012, 09:29 AM
I will never understand the controversy surrounding Hopkins vs. Calzaghe.
It frequently enter these discussions but i just don't see how it's close to controversial let alone a robbery.

D-MiZe
01-06-2012, 09:34 AM
It doesn't matter how close a fight was if the outcome was predetermined.
That's what a robbery is........


Pure speculation.

A robbery is when a fighter who has clearly won isn't awarded the decision.

Scott9945
01-06-2012, 10:15 AM
I will never understand the controversy surrounding Hopkins vs. Calzaghe.
It frequently enter these discussions but i just don't see how it's close to controversial let alone a robbery.

Especially since everyone who scored it for Hopkins seemed to have it 114-113.

IronDanHamza
01-06-2012, 12:03 PM
I thought it was closer than Lara-Williams, Helenius-Chisora, and Sturm-Macklin should have been. Lara gave Williams a beating and Chisora won nine rounds minimum.

I thought Sturm-Macklin was closer than Pacquaio-Marquez.

I felt Macklin did win the fight though.

lightsout_finit
01-06-2012, 02:01 PM
Pure speculation.

A robbery is when a fighter who has clearly won isn't awarded the decision.

how am i speculatin??

A robbery is where one fighter had no way of winning without a ko.
I think you misunderstand what I'm saying.

Do you really believe marquez was gonna get given that fight without a ko?
What about chisora??
Matthysse is another guy who gets screwed over a lot......

I think we are delving into the world of conspiracy theory here.

The Whitaker-Chavez fight is perhaps the only robbery on the list. I can't say this for certain, though, as there are a few fights I haven't seen.

And I feel the same way as the poster who said he is dumbfounded that so many think Hagler was robbed against Leonard.

Conspiracy theory?? You are either delusional or naive......
Boxing is dirty as sh*t it always has been, where you been on the moon???
On a side note I also had leonard beating hagler

Bottom line is promotors pay the ref and judges wages, if that ain't a conflict of intrest i don't know what is.....

SBleeder
01-06-2012, 04:32 PM
Now Hagler vs Antufermo I was a robbery.

I definitely had Hagler winning, but I don't agree that it was a "robbery". Looking back at my card, I had it 10-4-1 Hagler.

young_robbed
01-06-2012, 05:06 PM
Anifowoshe vs Quiroga

JAB5239
01-06-2012, 06:49 PM
Anifowoshe vs Quiroga

I haven't watched this fight in some time but don't remember it being a robbery. A close, classic and tragic fight is what I remember. Im pretty sure there was no controversy about the scoring.

catalinul
01-06-2012, 10:51 PM
I thought Anifowoshe won aswell but it as close.

Excellent fight though.

Kid McCoy
01-07-2012, 10:37 AM
In which of these fights would you consider that the rightful winner was outright robbed of victory?

Ad Wolgast KO 13 Mexican Joe Rivers (July 4 1912)

Lou Ambers UD15 Henry Armstrong II (Aug 22, 1939)

Joe Louis SD15 Jersey Joe Walcoltt I (December 5, 1947)

Muhammad Ali SD 12 Ken Norton II (September 10, 1973)

Michael Spinks UD 15 Larry Holmes I (September 21, 1985)

Sugar Ray Leonard SD12 Marvin Hagler (April 6, 1987)

Jose Luis Ramirez SD12 Pernell Whitaker (March 12, 1988)

Sugar Ray Leonard D12 Thomas Hearns II (June 12, 1989)

Julio Cesar Chavez KO 12 Meldrick Taylor I (March 17, 1990)

Julio Cesar Chavez D12 Pernell Whitaker (Sept. 10, 1993)

Evander Holyfield D12 Lennox Lewis I (March 13, 1999)

Shane Mosley UD12 Oscar De La Hoya II (Sept. 13, 2003)

Oscar De La Hoya UD12 Felix Sturm (June 5, 2004)

Joe Calzaghe SD12 Bernard Hopkins (April 19th 2008)

Manny Pacquiao MD12 Juan Manuel Marguez III (November 12, 2011)

Discuss

To me it's only a robbery if one guy clearly wins (say 9 rounds in a 12 round fight) and doesn't get the decision. A close fight isn't a robbery.

On that basis I'd take out Armstrong-Ambers (it was close), Calzaghe-Hopkins (I had Calzaghe winning clearly and even those who scored it for Hopkins had it close), Leonard-Hagler (I had Hagler winning but it was very close), Holmes-Spinks (Larry was outhustled and deserved to lose, imo), Ali-Norton II (though I thought Norton clearly won the third), De La Hoya-Mosley II (close again unless you count Mosley being on roids) and Marquez-Pacquaio (I thought Marquez edged it but it wasn't a landslide).

It's hard to say with Louis-Walcott as the full fight isn't extant, although Jersey Joe has the best of the action in what is available. Rivers-Wolgast was a legitimate KO. Wolgast wasn't knocked down as well, he just lost his balance and fell on him.

young_robbed
01-07-2012, 11:52 AM
I haven't watched this fight in some time but don't remember it being a robbery. A close, classic and tragic fight is what I remember. Im pretty sure there was no controversy about the scoring.

Pretty clear to me that Akeem won. It was fought in Quiroga's hometown so I guess that may have effected the judging. Anifowoshe to me won hands down