View Full Version : Comparing the skills of Sugar Ray Robinson to Sugar Ray Leonard


Flo_Raiden
01-04-2012, 03:52 PM
How would you compare the two in terms of all-round skills?
Who was better at doing certain things in the skill department such as:

Defense:
Counter-Punches:
Power:
Jab:
Speed:
Ring Generalship:
Combinations:
Feints:
Footwork:
Body Punches:

Barn
01-04-2012, 03:58 PM
How would you compare the two in terms of all-round skills?
Who was better at doing certain things such as:

Defense:
Counter-Punches:
Power:
Jab:
Speed:
Ring Generalship:
Combinations:
Feints:
Footwork:
Body Punches:

Defense - Similar

Counter punches - Edge to Robinson

Power - Robinson

Jab - Robinson shot it out more consistently and used it more effectively throughout a fight in my opinion.

Speed - About even.

Ring Generalship - Have to give the edge slightly to Robinson again.

Combinations - Slight edge to Robinson once again, his combos carrying more KO power.

Feints - Similar here again.

Footwork - Robinson by a whisker.

Body Punches - About even.

Makes Robinson look much better than Leonard with this but, there still wasn't a lot in it, Robinson just nicking most of the categories.

Sugarj
01-04-2012, 04:51 PM
In my book Robinson shades Leonard by a whisker in just about every category.....nothing is vastly superior. But I will give Leonard the slightest advantage in the following areas:

Footspeed

The speed of his two alternate fisted combinations

Slipping punches

Showmanship

Barn
01-04-2012, 04:56 PM
In my book Robinson shades Leonard by a whisker in just about every category.....nothing is vastly superior. But I will give Leonard the slightest advantage in the following areas:

Footspeed

The speed of his two alternate fisted combinations

Slipping punches

Showmanship
Definitely showmanship haha.

Interesting question. Who was the bigger star outside the ring? For me it's Robinson.

I remember speaking about boxing to my Grandpa and my Grandpa just over-heard us talking and exclaimed "SUGAR ROBINSON, Sugar Robinson was always on the telly everybody knew him."

This was in UK and it gave me quite a laugh.

I think Footspeed is similar, Robinson danced around shooting his jab in and out a tad faster than Leonard in my opinion.

Slipping punches I will give to Leonard.

By alternate fisted combinations, do you mean like the ones we seen in the Olympics :ugh:.

NChristo
01-04-2012, 05:26 PM
What about separate punches instead of just the jab in there ?
Think Leonard has him on the uppercut.

Barn
01-04-2012, 05:37 PM
What about separate punches instead of just the jab in there ?
Think Leonard has him on the uppercut.
Yeah, and maybe the right hook by a small margin.

Sugarj
01-04-2012, 05:45 PM
Definitely showmanship haha.

Interesting question. Who was the bigger star outside the ring? For me it's Robinson.

I remember speaking about boxing to my Grandpa and my Grandpa just over-heard us talking and exclaimed "SUGAR ROBINSON, Sugar Robinson was always on the telly everybody knew him."

This was in UK and it gave me quite a laugh.

I think Footspeed is similar, Robinson danced around shooting his jab in and out a tad faster than Leonard in my opinion.

Slipping punches I will give to Leonard.

By alternate fisted combinations, do you mean like the ones we seen in the Olympics :ugh:.



Yes Robinson was more famous, he was as much an icon as John Wayne! Ha ha. Not that Leonard wasn't famous though, I think he would make many people's 1980s icon top 10 list after Michael Jackson, Madonna, Mike Tyson, Maradonna, Bono, Michelle Pfeiffer, Arnie, Harrison Ford and Sly Stallone.

Yes, footspeed is similar.....as I said there is only a 'whisker' in it. But Leonard's feet seemed so damn quick in the return with Duran, when he was dancing and doing the Ali shuffle in the 'showboat' round....., it was like a hummingbird's wings! Even at middleweight vs Hagler Leonard's footspeed was a joy to behold at times. Granted though, Robinson was a skilled tap dancer.

As for alternate fisted combinations, I used that expression carefully because I fear that Robinson hooked faster off the jab with the left. Indeed, I think Robinson's repeated left hook combinations were faster than Leonard's. I love Robinson's KO of Olsen too.

But for Leonard's speedy right, left, right, left work whether in straights, hooks or uppercuts check out round 9 of the Hagler fight, theres a beauty in the middle of round 12 too. Even up at suppermiddle the first knockdown of Lalonde was rapid. That said, they were both in the same league for speed.

New England
01-04-2012, 08:33 PM
In my book Robinson shades Leonard by a whisker in just about every category.....nothing is vastly superior. But I will give Leonard the slightest advantage in the following areas:

Footspeed

The speed of his two alternate fisted combinations

Slipping punches

Showmanship

absolutely agree and nice post. i would say that robinson's power and his chin were on a level beyond leonard's
especially his power. the guy really could bang



i'd also say that leonard had less stnap on the end of his punches, but flurried / as fast as any WW i've ever seen
faster than robinson. he moved his whole body with fluidity and it produced flurries that were just blinding.

GrandpaBernard
01-04-2012, 08:47 PM
Yes Robinson was more famous, he was as much an icon as John Wayne! Ha ha. Not that Leonard wasn't famous though, I think he would make many people's 1980s icon top 10 list after Michael Jackson, Madonna, Mike Tyson, Maradonna, Bono, Michelle Pfeiffer, Arnie, Harrison Ford and Sly Stallone.

Yes, footspeed is similar.....as I said there is only a 'whisker' in it. But Leonard's feet seemed so damn quick in the return with Duran, when he was dancing and doing the Ali shuffle in the 'showboat' round....., it was like a hummingbird's wings! Even at middleweight vs Hagler Leonard's footspeed was a joy to behold at times. Granted though, Robinson was a skilled tap dancer.

As for alternate fisted combinations, I used that expression carefully because I fear that Robinson hooked faster off the jab with the left. Indeed, I think Robinson's repeated left hook combinations were faster than Leonard's. I love Robinson's KO of Olsen too.

But for Leonard's speedy right, left, right, left work whether in straights, hooks or uppercuts check out round 9 of the Hagler fight, theres a beauty in the middle of round 12 too. Even up at suppermiddle the first knockdown of Lalonde was rapid. That said, they were both in the same league for speed.
so what you're saying in short is that Robinson is better at doubling and tripling up on shots with a single hand compared to Leonard?

Sugarj
01-05-2012, 07:03 AM
absolutely agree and nice post. i would say that robinson's power and his chin were on a level beyond leonard's
especially his power. the guy really could bang



i'd also say that leonard had less stnap on the end of his punches, but flurried / as fast as any WW i've ever seen
faster than robinson. he moved his whole body with fluidity and it produced flurries that were just blinding.


Its sad that we cant find any film of welterweight Robinson, in hindsight he might have been ridiculously fast at the weight.

Sugarj
01-05-2012, 07:07 AM
so what you're saying in short is that Robinson is better at doubling and tripling up on shots with a single hand compared to Leonard?

Yes.

Not that there was much in it. The only person I've seen better than Robinson at doubling and trippling up a left hook is prime Roy Jones. But the only people that I think are better at alternative hand combination punching than Leonard are Meldrick Taylor and again Roy Jones.

New England
01-05-2012, 10:00 AM
Yes.

Not that there was much in it. The only person I've seen better than Robinson at doubling and trippling up a left hook is prime Roy Jones. But the only people that I think are better at alternative hand combination punching than Leonard are Meldrick Taylor and again Roy Jones.



muhammad ali had the same sort of flash and speed as the men you mentioned


and joe louis in my opinion is the most devastating of all time with his combinations, if not quite as fast as all of the others mentioned with their combinations. he did not flurry, he landed bombs in combination

Flo_Raiden
01-05-2012, 11:22 AM
Its sad that we cant find any film of welterweight Robinson, in hindsight he might have been ridiculously fast at the weight.

Not sure if these are legit but...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qORkfNNnYA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAUaUDjlcCk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YxHSvwzOfI


SRR looks great in these videos.

Sugarj
01-05-2012, 11:43 AM
muhammad ali had the same sort of flash and speed as the men you mentioned


and joe louis in my opinion is the most devastating of all time with his combinations, if not quite as fast as all of the others mentioned with their combinations. he did not flurry, he landed bombs in combination


Yea, obviously up at heavyweight Ali & Louis were superb combination punchers. Patterson and Tyson too could throw combinations that were a blur too.

When I mention prime Meldrick Taylor and prime Roy Jones, these are without doubt the finest, fastest combination punchers I think I've ever seen. Some run them close like Robinson and Leonard, obviously some hit harder......but I can't think of anyone better to my eyes.

Sugarj
01-05-2012, 11:43 AM
Not sure if these are legit but...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qORkfNNnYA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAUaUDjlcCk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YxHSvwzOfI


SRR looks great in these videos.

Genius, I'll check them out tonight......

Nick Name
01-06-2012, 06:57 PM
Comparing the skills of Sugar Ray Robinson to Sugar Ray Leonard

No way. :)

Ray Corso
01-09-2012, 12:15 PM
Just check the records and that will tell you whose the best. Ray Leonard was a terrific athlete who boxed and boxed very well. Sugarman was a terrific boxer who could Fight very well! When you loose one after a 100 (fights) thats saying something, heck your sister will beat you more than once in a 100 hahahaha!!! There was no ONE man like Sugar Ray before him or since. I realize the young guys are only afforded old film to watch and get an idea of what he was all about but just look at the competitors he fought. The biggest differences from the fighters then and now is the outrageous efforts those guys put forth. I don't see that effort after the 70s and I'm not stuck in one era I'm a young soon to be 62 years old, I was raised in the sport and effort is the first thing a trainer looks at even before talent. Sugar Ray had all talent and gave effort while trying hard to maintain the concept of boxing which is "hit and not get hit"! Leonard could hit you and was good at not getting hit but Sugarman was capable of knocking fighters out when he hit. You just don't see anyone backing off and then countering with a left hook and knocking someone out! Plus he could dance! Not to good at singin maybe a little better than Smokin' Joe bless them both. Ray

JAB5239
01-09-2012, 03:26 PM
Just check the records and that will tell you whose the best. Ray Leonard was a terrific athlete who boxed and boxed very well. Sugarman was a terrific boxer who could Fight very well! When you loose one after a 100 (fights) thats saying something, heck your sister will beat you more than once in a 100 hahahaha!!! There was no ONE man like Sugar Ray before him or since. I realize the young guys are only afforded old film to watch and get an idea of what he was all about but just look at the competitors he fought. The biggest differences from the fighters then and now is the outrageous efforts those guys put forth. I don't see that effort after the 70s and I'm not stuck in one era I'm a young soon to be 62 years old, I was raised in the sport and effort is the first thing a trainer looks at even before talent. Sugar Ray had all talent and gave effort while trying hard to maintain the concept of boxing which is "hit and not get hit"! Leonard could hit you and was good at not getting hit but Sugarman was capable of knocking fighters out when he hit. You just don't see anyone backing off and then countering with a left hook and knocking someone out! Plus he could dance! Not to good at singin maybe a little better than Smokin' Joe bless them both. Ray

First off, welcome to the history section.

As far as your post goes, the only thing I really disagree with is the bolded. If you're talking about the sport and its fighters as a whole Im sure you could make an argument. If you're talking about Leonard than I totally disagree. Leonard was a determined a fighter as I've ever watched and I'd say his efforts are worthy of any in history. His effort and comeback against Hearns in 1981 are the story of legend.

IronDanHamza
01-09-2012, 05:36 PM
Ray Leonard is a special special fighter. Not many like him.

But Robinson is pretty much better in every category.

Ray Robinson is the greatest fighter ever. He's the closest thing to perfection the World has seen.

kendom
01-10-2012, 01:25 PM
Ray Leonard is a special special fighter. Not many like him.

But Robinson is pretty much better in every category.

Ray Robinson is the greatest fighter ever. He's the closest thing to perfection the World has seen.

Even defense??

IronDanHamza
01-10-2012, 02:38 PM
Even defense??

Arguably.

I tend to see that Robinson's defensive abilities are often underrated whilst Leonard's are often overrated.

Both loved to bang. And both could dance and get out of the way of shots and dictate the pace when they wanted.

Miburo
01-10-2012, 04:15 PM
Leonard was faster overall. What Robinson had though was brilliant and unorthodox combinations, which allowed him to regularly catch opponents with blind punches. This was also the source of his power. Robinson is the best combination puncher ever, which I see as his primary attribute.

MRBOOMER
01-10-2012, 04:51 PM
Heres my question who has better ring iq

IronDanHamza
01-10-2012, 06:25 PM
Heres my question who has better ring iq

Robinson for me.

MRBOOMER
01-11-2012, 02:43 AM
Robinson for me.

What makes you say that he got dragged into a lot of pointless battles and hit with many pointless shots he shoulda been able to see even late in his career he shoulda been able to out box and out smart some of the fighters he lost to

I mean what would be your thoughts on a Benitez Robinson match up I think he'd get countered to death and lose a decision

BennyST
01-11-2012, 08:08 AM
I've got to disagree with most here. I think Leonard clearly (well, ok, not clearly) beats Robinson on a few fronts at least. Leonard could arguably be rated up among the top five fighters of all time.

Due to inactivity, injury and drug abuse, he killed any chance of that. However, his skill alone rates him very highly and the fighters he beat are arguably the greatest ever set of fighters to beat from 147 to 160. It literally does not get any better than Duran (yes, his best weight was much lower, but he was still clearly great at 147 too), Hearns, Benitez and Hagler!

The only pity is that he didn't fight Hearns at 154. However, I have to say that the majority of these are nearly impossible to say one way or another. It is simply that Robinson has the greater resume and much greater longevity.

I would personally give Leonard speed, IQ, defence, footwork, combinations, and jab. In reality, they were nearly the same fighter. Robinson had a greater chin, Leonard had just as much will to win, Robinson had more power, Leonard was a little bit faster, Robinson was a better body puncher (bar against Duran in their first fight when Leonard threw some of the most brutal body ever seen at 147) etc etc.

I don't see how anyone can possibly say with any certainty, apart from resume, that Robinson had everything greater than Leonard. Let's not get caught up now folks. :hail:

I personally think it's clear Leonard does a few things better than Robinson from all the film we have. Just because he's the best doesn't mean he does everything better than everyone. In my opinion, there are a few things that Leonard clearly beats him in.

IronDanHamza
01-11-2012, 08:08 AM
What makes you say that he got dragged into a lot of pointless battles and hit with many pointless shots he shoulda been able to see even late in his career he shoulda been able to out box and out smart some of the fighters he lost to

I mean what would be your thoughts on a Benitez Robinson match up I think he'd get countered to death and lose a decision

We can't really say since we haven't really seen his best days.

We see his wars with ATG's when he's past his prime like Bastillio and so forth. But to be honest, I have no doubt in my mind that Leonard would also bang with the likes of Bastillio and take unecessary shots, especially the MW version.

We didn't see Robinson's best day's like we did Leonard, but even then, Robinson's ring IQ still is one of the best I've ever seen.

Barn
01-11-2012, 11:37 AM
We can't really say since we haven't really seen his best days.

We see his wars with ATG's when he's past his prime like Bastillio and so forth. But to be honest, I have no doubt in my mind that Leonard would also bang with the likes of Bastillio and take unecessary shots, especially the MW version.

We didn't see Robinson's best day's like we did Leonard, but even then, Robinson's ring IQ still is one of the best I've ever seen.
To be fair though, he did like to bang when he could have easily boxed to a decision.

Sometimes also got over-excited which resulted in a flash knockdown against him

IronDanHamza
01-11-2012, 05:33 PM
To be fair though, he did like to bang when he could have easily boxed to a decision.

Sometimes also got over-excited which resulted in a flash knockdown against him

Are you talking about Leonard? Or Robinson?

I think that description applies for both of them.

The Surgeon
01-12-2012, 06:13 AM
Im gonna say Robinson on power and chin pretty clearly (though SRL could crack and wasnt exactly packing glass)

Speed is tougher, its tight in both of the following area's but id give Robinson the edge in single shot speed, even short combination speed but Leonard pips him in flurry speed. Leonard was electric and oh so fast when he flurried...

Footwork im tempted to say Leonard again thinking of the Duran rematch but overall id say Sugar Snr!

Great fighters the pair of them and while im not so big on Sugar Ray Leonard he was one hell of a WW and worthy of the Sugar moniker

MRBOOMER
01-12-2012, 07:36 AM
We can't really say since we haven't really seen his best days.

We see his wars with ATG's when he's past his prime like Bastillio and so forth. But to be honest, I have no doubt in my mind that Leonard would also bang with the likes of Bastillio and take unecessary shots, especially the MW version.

We didn't see Robinson's best day's like we did Leonard, but even then, Robinson's ring IQ still is one of the best I've ever seen.

I doubt that seriously because when push came to shove how many times have you seen Leonard stand in there and bang 12 or 15 rounds lets say he fought Bastillo after Duran I think he woulda learned his lesson and when he came back to fight at middle weight he knew what his body could and couldn't do so he adjusted or ali'd it(throw flurries at the end of rounds and throw so jabs out and go for the ko if he hurt you) as for Robinson I think he shoulda dogged some fighters that he lost to I mean he if you ask me was that defensively sound an went off of athletisim at mw more then his boxing ability and ring iq

IronDanHamza
01-12-2012, 07:47 AM
I doubt that seriously because when push came to shove how many times have you seen Leonard stand in there and bang 12 or 15 rounds lets say he fought Bastillo after Duran I think he woulda learned his lesson and when he came back to fight at middle weight he knew what his body could and couldn't do so he adjusted or ali'd it(throw flurries at the end of rounds and throw so jabs out and go for the ko if he hurt you) as for Robinson I think he shoulda dogged some fighters that he lost to I mean he if you ask me was that defensively sound an went off of athletisim at mw more then his boxing ability and ring iq

Couldn't be more wrong with that closing statment.

And, Ray Leonard used to bang with his opponents all the time. Leonard was a fighter.

MRBOOMER
01-12-2012, 07:53 AM
[QUOTE=IronDanHamza;11658077]Couldn't be more wrong with that closing statment.

And, Ray Leonard used to bang with his opponents all the time. Leonard was a fighter.[/

I'll leave the robinson alone

But I don't see where you get that if you mean by fighter he would land his combo's and get out then yes if you mean by let's stand here and do the first Duran fight then no..

IronDanHamza
01-12-2012, 08:16 AM
[QUOTE=IronDanHamza;11658077]Couldn't be more wrong with that closing statment.

And, Ray Leonard used to bang with his opponents all the time. Leonard was a fighter.[/

I'll leave the robinson alone

But I don't see where you get that if you mean by fighter he would land his combo's and get out then yes if you mean by let's stand here and do the first Duran fight then no..

They way he fought in the first Duran fight is how he fought for most of his career.

MRBOOMER
01-12-2012, 12:40 PM
[QUOTE=MRBOOMER;11658094]

They way he fought in the first Duran fight is how he fought for most of his career.

He didn't. Stand there and slug and forget defense man if that was the case his career would have been even shorter cause of that bad eye getting hit so much.

IronDanHamza
01-13-2012, 09:41 AM
[QUOTE=IronDanHamza;11658134]

He didn't. Stand there and slug and forget defense man if that was the case his career would have been even shorter cause of that bad eye getting hit so much.

Yes, he did.

Ray Leonard didn't act at all out of character in the first fight.

He was as macho as anyone and loved getting into a scrap.

The only people who say otherwise and think Leonard was some pot shotting dancer who never wanted to engage are people who weren't around to see his career unfold. Like I said, Ray Leonard loved to bang himself.

Barn
01-13-2012, 10:45 AM
Are you talking about Leonard? Or Robinson?

I think that description applies for both of them.
Robinson moreso but, Leonard did like a fight as well there is no denying that. Anyone who says otherwise should get directions to Leonard vs Duran I.

Barn
01-13-2012, 10:46 AM
[QUOTE=IronDanHamza;11658077]Couldn't be more wrong with that closing statment.

And, Ray Leonard used to bang with his opponents all the time. Leonard was a fighter.[/

I'll leave the robinson alone

But I don't see where you get that if you mean by fighter he would land his combo's and get out then yes if you mean by let's stand here and do the first Duran fight then no..
Leonard fought flat footed an awful lot during his prime, he wasn't a dancer.

matrichuploader
01-13-2012, 11:25 AM
Sugar Ray Robinson is the Best ; Sugar Ray Leonard is the Fastest & Exciting.

The Surgeon
01-13-2012, 12:13 PM
Never ceases to amaze how many people still think Ray Leonard was a Floyd Mayweather type (classic backfoot Mayweather) and Hagler was a mini Tyson rushing you....

It was more out of character for these guys to fight the way they did vs Duran 2 (SRL) and vs Hearns (Hagler) than typical of them

Ray boxed like a dream when he wanted to though as demonstrated in the return with Duran, fast fast feet

Flo_Raiden
03-30-2012, 09:19 PM
Here's another prime WW version of SRR.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fpoz05nQ1vA&feature=player_embedded

BennyST
03-31-2012, 10:08 AM
Yeah, the revised Leonard history is an odd one. He fought two or three times in his whole career as he did against Duran II.