View Full Version : Andre Ward is the greatest Super Middleweight ever!


$Full Clip$
12-17-2011, 11:41 PM
Dont get it twisted on their best day prime for prime id pick toney and roy over Ward but accomplishment wise at super middleweight hes the greatest. Joe Calzaghes 20 fraud title defenses can now forever be forgotten and now even the quality of mikkel kessler i question was he really a eurofraud too? That was Calzaghes best win and kessler isnt *****. Calzaghes left when the division finally got good. Ward has dominated the Most stacked super middleweight division in boxing. Bute is next but hes defeated bums the last few years. I have no doubt in my mind Ward crushes him. Is it now a fact like i believe that Ward is the greatest super middleweight ever?

DarkTerror88
12-17-2011, 11:48 PM
Only time will tell.

jermainerambo
12-17-2011, 11:52 PM
lol dream on :nana:46-0:nana:only man in history to win wba,wbo,wbc.ibf,ibo:nana:

bojangles1987
12-17-2011, 11:57 PM
Roy was better, and Calzaghe has longevity, but I'd agree. No other super middleweight has ever had two wins the caliber of Ward spanking Kessler and Froch.

If he fights Bute and smacks him around the way I expect, it won't be a debate.

$Full Clip$
12-17-2011, 11:57 PM
lol dream on :nana:46-0:nana:only man in history to win wba,wbo,wbc.ibf,ibo:nana:

That doesnt mean squat i could poop on a normal jean belt and call it a title. Theirs no substance. Calzaghe cherry picked tomato cans in europe. Ward joined a tournament with the toughest young fighters in the division and DOMINATED the best.

jermainerambo
12-18-2011, 12:04 AM
That doesnt mean squat i could poop on a normal jean belt and call it a title. Theirs no substance. Calzaghe cherry picked tomato cans in europe. Ward joined a tournament with the toughest young fighters in the division and DOMINATED the best.

toughest young fighters?.......bika and kessler and Tocker Pudwill's little brother Shelby Pudwill lol joe calaghe was 35 when he beat them young boy's :nana:

EdMon917
12-18-2011, 12:31 AM
Only time will tell.

^This but for now, no way.

studentofthegam
12-18-2011, 01:18 AM
Dont get it twisted on their best day prime for prime id pick toney and roy over Ward but accomplishment wise at super middleweight hes the greatest. Joe Calzaghes 20 fraud title defenses can now forever be forgotten and now even the quality of mikkel kessler i question was he really a eurofraud too? That was Calzaghes best win and kessler isnt *****. Calzaghes left when the division finally got good. Ward has dominated the Most stacked super middleweight division in boxing. Bute is next but hes defeated bums the last few years. I have no doubt in my mind Ward crushes him. Is it now a fact like i believe that Ward is the greatest super middleweight ever?Ward is really good but Im slow to say SMW GOAT. And Zags was nothing to play with. I dont know why he gets disrespected so much. Thats coming from what they call a "yank". Like Ward he knew how to win. BTW he would have dominated Froch too.

IronDanHamza
12-18-2011, 01:39 AM
Ward is really good but Im slow to say SMW GOAT. And Zags was nothing to play with. I dont know why he gets disrespected so much. Thats coming from what they call a "yank". Like Ward he knew how to win. BTW he would have dominated Froch too.

That's the story of Joe Calzaghe's career.

He would've dominated him and he would've dominated him.

Yeah, he would have dominated Froch. 12-0 probably. Difference is Ward did it.

Ward at 27 and 2 years of fighting Top opposition has argubaly a better resume than Calzaghe at 168.

That speaks volumes.

studentofthegam
12-18-2011, 01:44 AM
That's the story of Joe Calzaghe's career.

He would've dominated him and he would've dominated him.

Yeah, he would have dominated Froch. 12-0 probably. Difference is Ward did it.

Ward at 27 and 2 years of fighting Top opposition has argubaly a better resume than Calzaghe at 168.

That speaks volumes.Oh wait a moment. Im not saying I think Zags trumps Ward but I just get defensive when it comes to Joe. I enjoyed his career and style is all.

crold1
12-18-2011, 02:00 AM
No other super middleweight has ever had two wins the caliber of Ward spanking Kessler and Froch.

Calzaghe sparked Kess and Lacy pretty good arguably past his physical peak though Froch is clearly a better win than Lacy. Toney and being the only man to stop Malinga is pretty darn good for Roy. Eubank and Benn had big wins; Collins beat them both. There's a lot of depth for a young-ish class.

Ward's on a roll. Bute would be huge for him. he's fighting in a stellar era for the class.

GoogleMe
12-18-2011, 03:32 PM
Calzaghe has a way better resume.

The Surgeon
12-18-2011, 04:11 PM
Calzaghe should be EMBARRASSED that threads like these are popping up ALREADY given the length of his "reign".....

I doubt he'd have even entered this tournament if it happened on his watch, if he did he'd have pulled out mid way im sure of it.

Obama
12-18-2011, 05:17 PM
Calzaghe should be EMBARRASSED that threads like these are popping up ALREADY given the length of his "reign".....

I doubt he'd have even entered this tournament if it happened on his watch, if he did he'd have pulled out mid way im sure of it.

And this is pretty much the bottom line right here. Better fighter or not, Calzaghe simply never played the part.

Obama
12-18-2011, 05:20 PM
lol dream on :nana:46-0:nana:only man in history to win wba,wbo,wbc.ibf,ibo:nana:

Calzaghe never won an IBO title. And he's not the only one to hold the 4 main ones either. Bernard Hopkins did, and he held them all at the same time, unlike Calzaghe.

Mannie Phresh
12-18-2011, 05:34 PM
i think bute is tougher than froch

jermainerambo
12-18-2011, 05:39 PM
Calzaghe never won an IBO title. And he's not the only one to hold the 4 main ones either. Bernard Hopkins did, and he held them all at the same time, unlike Calzaghe.


jeff lacy was the ibf and ibo champion

joe calzaghe had all the belts and beat Bernard Hopkins

crold1
12-18-2011, 05:52 PM
jeff lacy was the ibf and ibo champion

joe calzaghe had all the belts and beat Bernard Hopkins

No, he vacated the IBF belt before Kessler. That's how it ultimately ended up with Bute. he won all the belts. he didn't hold them all at the same time.

wmute
12-18-2011, 06:10 PM
Not yet, but he is well on his way to get there.

Obama
12-18-2011, 06:11 PM
jeff lacy was the ibf and ibo champion

joe calzaghe had all the belts and beat Bernard Hopkins

No, he vacated the IBF belt before Kessler. That's how it ultimately ended up with Bute. he won all the belts. he didn't hold them all at the same time.

He didn't hold the IBO title at all. It was vacated after Lacy-Sandman.

jermainerambo
12-18-2011, 06:18 PM
No, he vacated the IBF belt before Kessler. That's how it ultimately ended up with Bute. he won all the belts. he didn't hold them all at the same time.

my avatar picture show's he's holding them all at the same time lol :nana:

The_Demon
12-18-2011, 07:09 PM
Not yet,but he certainly has the ability to go down as the greatest at the weight imo,i think hes a special talent

Scott9945
12-18-2011, 11:21 PM
i think bute is tougher than froch

I don't think he is tougher, but he does have more one punch power. Bute's uppercut is a game changer.

JAB5239
12-18-2011, 11:44 PM
my avatar picture show's he's holding them all at the same time lol :nana:

That is a publicity photo. If they show Manny with all his belts that doesn't mean he he'll
Held them simultaneously.

Miburo
12-19-2011, 02:07 AM
Wish Ward would just barrel on ahead and destroy Bute, end this charade of a question as to who runs the division, then take a break followed by moving up in weight.

New England
12-19-2011, 11:42 AM
In terms of resume its close between Ward and Steve Collins. Ward can separate with another win in a rematch with Froch/Kessler or by beating Bute



rematches with kessler and froch are unnecessary and wouldn't push anybody beyond any threshold


beating bute would be a serious win. he's not perfect but he's a beast in his prime on a bit of a tear himself.

outside of dirrell its the only business at 168 left unfinished.


it's way too early to make any historic distinctions about andre ward
the guy is literally in the middle of his prime.


one thing we can say to a degree of certainty is that he's one hell of a boxer.

i think he's the best fighter under 30 in the game.
unlike donaire (whose power might not carry against bigger men,) ward has a style that can easily work to foil larger opponents. as an amateur he fought at 178!

New England
12-19-2011, 12:50 PM
???? to beat guys like Kessler or Froch twice would be super impressive and definitely enough to push him over the threshold.



he's already beaten them impressively enough to ensure that they wouldnt have a chance in the second fight


there's no need for it to actually happen


not significant wins, rematches of non-competative fights

Scott9945
12-19-2011, 02:07 PM
he's already beaten them impressively enough to ensure that they wouldnt have a chance in the second fight


there's no need for it to actually happen


not significant wins, rematches of non-competative fights

Totally agree. And you won't be hearing Froch or Kessler demanding one. Plus it's a very tough ticket to sell, especially outside of Oakland or Denmark/England.

Obama
12-19-2011, 11:28 PM
my avatar picture show's he's holding them all at the same time lol :nana:

You do realize fighters get to keep a copy of the title they win for life right?

tennishero
12-20-2011, 03:34 AM
rjj wuld destroy ward

wayyy too much for him

ward lacks power- thats his only weakness

Tiozzo
12-20-2011, 08:16 AM
Let me take a sh*t on your thread.

hardcore
12-20-2011, 08:20 AM
If Ward goes through Bute and the Dirrell brothers at 168, he is hands-down without a doubt the greatest super middleweight of all time.

El Jesus
12-22-2011, 04:59 PM
That's the story of Joe Calzaghe's career.

He would've dominated him and he would've dominated him.

Yeah, he would have dominated Froch. 12-0 probably. Difference is Ward did it.

Ward at 27 and 2 years of fighting Top opposition has argubaly a better resume than Calzaghe at 168.

That speaks volumes.

I have to agree with this, people diss wards style and all but hes taking no prisoners truth be told, i see no reason why he doesnt get it on with Bute, win or lose, i seriously give more credence to Wards resume than Calzhage, and its not because its so recent or ward and i reside in the same city, its just the super six alone put him over calzhage, fighting guys in their prime without issue. Green, Kessler, Miranda, Froch and Abraham as well.

Nick Name
12-22-2011, 05:14 PM
That's the story of Joe Calzaghe's career.

He would've dominated him and he would've dominated him.

Yeah, he would have dominated Froch. 12-0 probably. Difference is Ward did it.

Ward at 27 and 2 years of fighting Top opposition has argubaly a better resume than Calzaghe at 168.





Yeah but Calzaghe is also from Newbridge Wales and stood and trained all his life in Newbridge Wales. Ward lives and trains in America where the biggest fights are made and the best trainers work. Calzaghe was trained by a man (his loving dad) who never stood in the ring himself. Enzo Calzaghe is without a doubt a great father, but I could probably be a better trainer than him, since I've been boxing as an amateur for two years. :D :D I am more boxing-wise than Enzo Calzaghe :)

Imagine what Calzaghe could have done if based in USA instead of Newbridge Wales. With his enormous amount of talent he could've been a Hall Of Famer.

Anyway, I doubt that Ward could have beaten Joe Calzaghe at his peak.

I'll give you this: Ward has the chance to become the most successful supermiddleweight of all time, even tho he's really ugly to watch.

IronDanHamza
12-22-2011, 06:54 PM
Yeah but Calzaghe is also from Newbridge Wales and stood and trained all his life in Newbridge Wales. Ward lives and trains in America where the biggest fights are made and the best trainers work. Calzaghe was trained by a man (his loving dad) who never stood in the ring himself. Enzo Calzaghe is without a doubt a great father, but I could probably be a better trainer than him, since I've been boxing as an amateur for two years. :D :D I am more boxing-wise than Enzo Calzaghe :)

Imagine what Calzaghe could have done if based in USA instead of Newbridge Wales. With his enormous amount of talent he could've been a Hall Of Famer.

I imagine it would have been fantastic.

The problem is, he get's nothing for imaginary things.

The majority of reasoning for Calzaghe's 'Greatness' is based off pure imagination.

Anyway, I doubt that Ward could have beaten Joe Calzaghe at his peak.

I'll give you this: Ward has the chance to become the most successful supermiddleweight of all time, even tho he's really ugly to watch.

I'd probably lean on Calzaghe aswell at this point.

Again, means very little.

BennyST
12-22-2011, 10:29 PM
I don't think he is tougher, but he does have more one punch power. Bute's uppercut is a game changer.

...and one of Ward's most flawed defensive manoeuvres is sliding inside with his head down, ala Hopkins, but he doesn't do it as well as Hopkins yet and has been caught doing it and dropped badly.

For some reason though, I don't think Bute will be able to catch him the way the other guy did. Still a fascinating fight, but will it ever be made? IN today's crappy boxing world, I wonder.

Heckler
12-22-2011, 10:49 PM
Considering how shallow and relatively young this division has been in years past it's not that huge of a deal.

However.... if we are to consider all the different guys that could've competed at super middleweight in history i'd have to say that this is an incredibly premature claim. The claim of how great he is is already a notion that is INCREDIBLY premature. It's knee jerk reaction bull****. It's indicative of the state of the sport how quick we are to grasp at any genuine top notch talent we see.

He is an incredibly talented fighter with real skill and various other qualities. He is promising. He has beaten top notch competition. He is one of the best p4p fighters in the world. However let's not get ahead of ourselves.

People already do this with Floyd Mayweather and Manny Pacquaio. They are great talents dominating in a relatively bleak boxing landscape. Because boxing has been dissapointing in recent years we grasp at and put any talent we see on a pedastool. It clouds objectivity

Someone mentioned roy jones. Roy jones would be an absolute stylistic nightmare for someone like ward. He doesn't engage guys in firefights. He is cagey, fights at his range, and is able to work with a much larger margin of error due to his speed and agility. Guys like hopkins and ward are technical fighters. They look for openings to exploit. The problem is against a guy like Roy Jones those openings never really come, he uses his speed, movement, and physical gifts to control the range and use unconventional means to be incredibly effective. Where textbook guys like ward and hopkins can usually exploit an opening, the opening is a mere illusion against the likes of a prime roy jones. They can't get the timing, distance, and rhythm worked out because someone likes jones effectively operates outside of the parameters of what is considered normal.

Heckler
12-22-2011, 10:53 PM
jeff lacy was the ibf and ibo champion

joe calzaghe had all the belts and beat Bernard Hopkins

How about we forget about belts because they simply don't hold the value they use to and given the state of boxing and the depth in the divisions aren't necessarily indicative of 'greatness'.

I must also add that a somewhat controversial victory over Bernard Hopkins where one could say aggression, and not necessarily effective aggression, was favoured over clean and effective punching. His performance was far from awe inspiring. Lots of forward movement, show boating, and pitty pat glancing blows.

jermainerambo
12-22-2011, 11:15 PM
How about we forget about belts because they simply don't hold the value they use to and given the state of boxing and the depth in the divisions aren't necessarily indicative of 'greatness'.

I must also add that a somewhat controversial victory over Bernard Hopkins where one could say aggression, and not necessarily effective aggression, was favoured over clean and effective punching. His performance was far from awe inspiring. Lots of forward movement, show boating, and pitty pat glancing blows.

bernard hopkins was not landing sh_t calzaghe had him running around the ring

after the fight bernard hopkins was talking about how his is the ultimate survivor that all he come to do was survive

Heckler
12-23-2011, 12:32 AM
bernard hopkins was not landing sh_t calzaghe had him running around the ring

after the fight bernard hopkins was talking about how his is the ultimate survivor that all he come to do was survive

LOL you are living in a parallel fantasy world buddy. Hopkins was scoring with his lead right hand all night. He was landing on the inside with short hooks. He was landing throughout the fight. Turn the sound down, eliminate the crowds roar anytime calzaghe let loose a flurry of absolutely nothing which rarely landed in any form other than a glancing blow. Calzaghe had him 'running'. Running from what? Bernard was being cagey.... but there was hardly anything dangerous coming his way other than flurries that were deceptively ineffective and gave the illusion that he was being outhustled.

Heckler
12-23-2011, 12:34 AM
bernard hopkins was not landing sh_t calzaghe had him running around the ring

after the fight bernard hopkins was talking about how his is the ultimate survivor that all he come to do was survive

LOL you are living in a parallel fantasy world buddy. Hopkins was scoring with his lead right hand all night. He was landing on the inside with short hooks. He was landing throughout the fight. Turn the sound down, eliminate the crowds roar anytime calzaghe let loose a flurry of absolutely nothing which rarely landed in any form other than a glancing blow. Calzaghe had him 'running'. Running from what? Bernard was being cagey.... but there was hardly anything dangerous coming his way other than flurries that were deceptively ineffective and gave the illusion that he was being outhustled.

Im sure many have seen this before. Something well done that highlights the reality of the fight. Shows what was really happening when you disconnect from the crowd, the sense of atmosphere, and what the commentators/judges/lederman etc were or wern't seeing. With the gift of hindsight and the ability to watch and rewatch and rewatch again the footage whilst paying close attention to detail we can get a clearer picture of the fight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyz2cws8LBE

jermainerambo
12-23-2011, 12:47 AM
LOL you are living in a parallel fantasy world buddy. Hopkins was scoring with his lead right hand all night. He was landing on the inside with short hooks. He was landing throughout the fight. Turn the sound down, eliminate the crowds roar anytime calzaghe let loose a flurry of absolutely nothing which rarely landed in any form other than a glancing blow. Calzaghe had him 'running'. Running from what? Bernard was being cagey.... but there was hardly anything dangerous coming his way other than flurries that were deceptively ineffective and gave the illusion that he was being outhustled.

calzaghe hit Bernard more times than he has ever been hit in his life and that is a fact

Heckler
12-23-2011, 01:58 AM
calzaghe hit Bernard more times than he has ever been hit in his life and that is a fact

How much of a fact that is depends on how much value you place on compubox punchstats. A system that is notorious for having huge limitations in terms of it's efficacy in distinguishing between glancing blows, blows that were partially blocked, near misses, blocked and blows that were clean and solid.

Saying that he was hit more than he was ever hit in his life doesn't = he was deserving of the loss. When a fighter is coming forward, pressuring, and throwing combinations of pity pat incredibly ineffective punches the debate is over how much value you place on this kind of aggression.

GoogleMe
12-23-2011, 04:15 AM
Yeah but Calzaghe is also from Newbridge Wales and stood and trained all his life in Newbridge Wales. Ward lives and trains in America where the biggest fights are made and the best trainers work. Calzaghe was trained by a man (his loving dad) who never stood in the ring himself. Enzo Calzaghe is without a doubt a great father, but I could probably be a better trainer than him, since I've been boxing as an amateur for two years. :D :D I am more boxing-wise than Enzo Calzaghe :)

Imagine what Calzaghe could have done if based in USA instead of Newbridge Wales. With his enormous amount of talent he could've been a Hall Of Famer.

Anyway, I doubt that Ward could have beaten Joe Calzaghe at his peak.

I'll give you this: Ward has the chance to become the most successful supermiddleweight of all time, even tho he's really ugly to watch.
Where to start?

1. He's a sure HOF'er
2. You don't HAVE to have been a fighter to be a good coach (thought it helps).
3. You wouldn't be 1% of the trainer Enzo is.
4. You've got NO boxing knowledge compared to him.
5. Stop trolling

BennyST
12-23-2011, 04:42 AM
Yeah but Calzaghe is also from Newbridge Wales and stood and trained all his life in Newbridge Wales. Ward lives and trains in America where the biggest fights are made and the best trainers work. Calzaghe was trained by a man (his loving dad) who never stood in the ring himself. Enzo Calzaghe is without a doubt a great father, but I could probably be a better trainer than him, since I've been boxing as an amateur for two years. :D :D I am more boxing-wise than Enzo Calzaghe :)

Imagine what Calzaghe could have done if based in USA instead of Newbridge Wales. With his enormous amount of talent he could've been a Hall Of Famer.

Anyway, I doubt that Ward could have beaten Joe Calzaghe at his peak.

I'll give you this: Ward has the chance to become the most successful supermiddleweight of all time, even tho he's really ugly to watch.

You realise that some of the greatest trainers ever haven't had one fight? You don't need to have fought to be a great trainer. You need to understand training, motivation, strategy, technique and have the right mind for it. You do not need to have fought, and many of the greatest trainers ever prove that theory.

Nick Name
12-23-2011, 10:15 AM
I imagine it would have been fantastic.

The problem is, he get's nothing for imaginary things.

The majority of reasoning for Calzaghe's 'Greatness' is based off pure imagination.



I'd probably lean on Calzaghe aswell at this point.

Again, means very little.

Let it go... It's just sad that a spectacular fighter like Calzaghe never moved from his little hometown to find bigger chances. Props to Ward, if he beats Bute there will be no opposition left for him in the supermiddleweights. :)

old cat
12-23-2011, 10:49 AM
Someone mentioned roy jones. Roy jones would be an absolute stylistic nightmare for someone like ward. He doesn't engage guys in firefights. He is cagey, fights at his range, and is able to work with a much larger margin of error due to his speed and agility. Guys like hopkins and ward are technical fighters. They look for openings to exploit. The problem is against a guy like Roy Jones those openings never really come, he uses his speed, movement, and physical gifts to control the range and use unconventional means to be incredibly effective. Where textbook guys like ward and hopkins can usually exploit an opening, the opening is a mere illusion against the likes of a prime roy jones. They can't get the timing, distance, and rhythm worked out because someone likes jones effectively operates outside of the parameters of what is considered normal.

Agreed

Wards competition, while good, have not shown they are hall of fame level. Roy at a similar age had beaten Bernard, Toney , Sosa and Mccallum. Ward has some good wins but not those types of wins. Also, Roy dismantled mid-level opponents.

I have to say , I believe Ward when he says," he is not yet a finish work."

Marchegiano
12-24-2011, 01:14 PM
****in' a my brother.

Cassius Liston
12-24-2011, 02:07 PM
Ward is really good but Im slow to say SMW GOAT. And Zags was nothing to play with. I dont know why he gets disrespected so much. Thats coming from what they call a "yank". Like Ward he knew how to win. BTW he would have dominated Froch too.

Calzaghe gets disrespected so much because he reverts to slaps and Hopkins made him look like a tomato can retard

But Calzaghe is probably the best smw of all time but he looks retarded sometimes and it lessens his respect