View Full Version : Who was a better role model for Black people? Louis or Ali


kendom
12-07-2011, 06:16 PM
Just finished watching the documentary "Joe Louis-America's Hero betrayed" and it got me thinking who was the better role model for black people Louis or Ali.

Capaedia
12-07-2011, 06:42 PM
Joe Louis is a good role model for anyone. Muhammad Ali, while great, is not.

TBear
12-07-2011, 06:51 PM
Joe Louis is a good role model for anyone. Muhammad Ali, while great, is not.

This.......................

BigStereotype
12-07-2011, 07:04 PM
I never understood why people had to qualify things - especially role models - like that. Honestly, a role model is a role model, white or black. If someone doesn't qualify as a role model for a white kid, he probably doesn't qualify for black kids, either. But if you're asking me who's a better role model, the obvious choice is Louis. Ali was kind of a prick.

lightsout_finit
12-07-2011, 07:15 PM
Had to vote Ali.......
Had the balls to speak his mind and just didn't give a f*ck.......

Forza
12-07-2011, 07:16 PM
I voted for joe louis but then again I'm a white person

Southpaw Stinger
12-07-2011, 07:45 PM
I think governments around the world would rather have nations full Louis clones rather than Ali clones. Not saying that's a good thing.

N!GGALAS CAGE
12-07-2011, 08:28 PM
Louis is a better role model for people of any race.

Ali did become a better role model as he got older though. He apologized for a lot of the statements he made and realized he was just a young angry black kid who hated the world at the time.

MANIAC310
12-07-2011, 08:55 PM
Had to vote Ali.......
Had the balls to speak his mind and just didn't give a f*ck.......

Hitler had the balls to speak his mind..... I don't think that alone constitutes a better role model.


I voted for Louis

Forza
12-07-2011, 09:11 PM
Ali was right about a lot of stuff and wrong about a lot.

Southpaw Stinger
12-07-2011, 09:29 PM
Hitler had the balls to speak his mind..... I don't think that alone constitutes a better role model.


And also, too many folks went along with him obediently without question.

A German Louis going along with the German system would be just as bad in that case.

mrjoeblive
12-07-2011, 10:04 PM
I voted for joe louis but then again I'm a white person

LOL its cool brother.

mrjoeblive
12-07-2011, 10:08 PM
Louis is a better role model for people of any race.

Ali did become a better role model as he got older though. He apologized for a lot of the statements he made and realized he was just a young angry black kid who hated the world at the time.

IMO a role model is for each person to decide for ones self. if your trying to be a low key good citizen then the brown bomber from Detroit is your man. If your tired of being pushed around by a corrupt system then perhaps Ali is your man. for me personally i think a bit of both men is a very good thing. in some situations you might want to be Ali and in others Louis. but to each his own.

mrjoeblive
12-07-2011, 10:11 PM
And also, too many folks went along with him obediently without question.

A German Louis going along with the German system would be just as bad in that case.

true. it still bothers me how the IRS ran over Louis. he tried to do his part as a USA citizen and they broke his back financially. he deserves a lot more credit than he got. a lot more.

Slip Stream
12-07-2011, 10:14 PM
Speaking as an African American, for me it’s Ali without question, with an afterthought: “How could it be anyone else?”

I think one of the simple reasons is timing. Joe Louis was from an era where “blacks” were more compliant and did more outwardly to be acceptable. I don’t hold this against Joe, because many blacks did comply with societal norms with their heads held high. My mother grew up in the era of segregation, during a time in America’s history where open discrimination was practiced. In many ways she was compliant as well, in that her way of expressing herself was muted. There is a majestic woman behind all of that “I must fit in” attitude, its just buried kinda deep now. She’s old and the times have changed, so in many ways both real and figurative she is the past. So too is Louis, but his greatness endures because there’s something to be said about honorably serving your country.

Ali spoke his mind, he was bubbling over with confidence and charisma, he projected a man that I have always wanted to be. While Louis, perhaps the single greatest heavyweight to ever lace up a pair of gloves, was a more sedate force. Louis was an all American man, and I think the picture of black compliance. Ali stood by his convictions, even to his ultimate detriment, he took a stand, granted it was an unpopular one but he held firm. And the fact that he did makes him my personal hero and mentor.

Ali could not be broken in my mind, and though he suffers from the effects of his career his poise still teaches me.

"A man who views the world the same at fifty as he did at twenty has wasted thirty years of his life."

~Muhammad Ali~

mrjoeblive
12-07-2011, 10:18 PM
Joe Louis is a good role model for anyone. Muhammad Ali, while great, is not.

i think it depends on which side of the fence your on. Ali was a good model for future leaders as he fought against a very corrupt and racist system. he carried the hopes of a down trodden nation on his back. thats why i dont get so mad at pac fans. they look at him as a national hero. on the scene i will go toe to toe with any one. but to all my pinoy friends, i let them slide with manny praise. its like blacks and the williams sisters, whites and emeniem(even though he is really black) and blacks and willie t Ribbs who carried the hopes of blacks possibly cracking open nas car races. the list goes on and on.

mrjoeblive
12-07-2011, 10:20 PM
Speaking as an African American, for me it’s Ali without question, with an afterthought: “How could it be anyone else?”

I think one of the simple reasons is timing. Joe Louis was from an era where “blacks” were more compliant and did more outwardly to be acceptable. I don’t hold this against Joe, because many blacks did comply with societal norms with their heads held high. My mother grew up in the era of segregation, during a time in America’s history where open discrimination was practiced. In many ways she was compliant as well, in that her way of expressing herself was muted. There is a majestic woman behind all of that “I must fit in” attitude, its just buried kinda deep now. She’s old and the times have changed, so in many ways both real and figurative she is the past. So too is Louis, but his greatness endures because there’s something to be said about honorably serving your country.

Ali spoke his mind, he was bubbling over with confidence and charisma, he projected a man that I have always wanted to be. While Louis, perhaps the single greatest heavyweight to ever lace up a pair of gloves, was a more sedate force. Louis was an all American man, and I think the picture of black compliance. Ali stood by his convictions, even to his ultimate detriment, he took a stand, granted it was an unpopular one but he held firm. And the fact that he did makes him my personal hero and mentor.

Ali could not be broken in my mind, and though he suffers from the effects of his career his poise still teaches me.

"A man who views the world the same at fifty as he did at twenty has wasted thirty years of his life."

~Muhammad Ali~

wow man!!!! dam good post you summed your view up very well. than you.

Slip Stream
12-07-2011, 10:23 PM
wow man!!!! dam good post you summed your view up very well. than you.

Thanks alot yo.

lightsout_finit
12-08-2011, 12:47 AM
Hitler had the balls to speak his mind..... I don't think that alone constitutes a better role model.


I voted for Louis

comparing Ali to Hitler shows which way someone like you would vote..... ;)

What I meant was if Ali was f*cked in the ass the way Louis was by the goverment he wouldn't have just took it like a little b*tch to be patriotic.
Would he??

You realise The whole thing with Louis being humble was pre planned at the start of his career as a way to avoid another Jack Johnson situation?
The guy went out of his way to seem more white to be accepted by his nation. To me that's no role model at all, that's called a puppet.

Before you call me a Louis hater or whatever casual fans like you say as a comeback, you should check my previous posts and you'll see i rate the Brown Bomber very highly as a fighter, infact i think he could beat any HW that ever lived other than Ali.....

You should prob learn something before you comment in history section this ain't nsb kid..........

I think governments around the world would rather have nations full Louis clones rather than Ali clones. Not saying that's a good thing.

Exactly......
:)

lightsout_finit
12-08-2011, 01:01 AM
And also, too many folks went along with him obediently without question.

A German Louis going along with the German system would be just as bad in that case.

Excellent post I still don't get why this kid compared Ali to Hitler....
Frankly i find it disturbing



Speaking as an African American, for me it’s Ali without question, with an afterthought: “How could it be anyone else?”

I think one of the simple reasons is timing. Joe Louis was from an era where “blacks” were more compliant and did more outwardly to be acceptable. I don’t hold this against Joe, because many blacks did comply with societal norms with their heads held high. My mother grew up in the era of segregation, during a time in America’s history where open discrimination was practiced. In many ways she was compliant as well, in that her way of expressing herself was muted. There is a majestic woman behind all of that “I must fit in” attitude, its just buried kinda deep now. She’s old and the times have changed, so in many ways both real and figurative she is the past. So too is Louis, but his greatness endures because there’s something to be said about honorably serving your country.

Ali spoke his mind, he was bubbling over with confidence and charisma, he projected a man that I have always wanted to be. While Louis, perhaps the single greatest heavyweight to ever lace up a pair of gloves, was a more sedate force. Louis was an all American man, and I think the picture of black compliance. Ali stood by his convictions, even to his ultimate detriment, he took a stand, granted it was an unpopular one but he held firm. And the fact that he did makes him my personal hero and mentor.

Ali could not be broken in my mind, and though he suffers from the effects of his career his poise still teaches me.

"A man who views the world the same at fifty as he did at twenty has wasted thirty years of his life."

~Muhammad Ali~

Great post.......
When I was a kid at school we were told the story of Ali throwin away his gold medal......
I'm sure you know the story......
And from that point on I thought Ali was the bees knees.
:)

If Ali was around in Louis time when black folks were more "compliant" as you put it, I think Ali would still have been Ali......

:)

JAB5239
12-08-2011, 01:40 AM
Louis was an all American man, and I think the picture of black compliance. Ali stood by his convictions, even to his ultimate detriment, he took a stand, granted it was an unpopular one but he held firm. And the fact that he did makes him my personal hero and mentor.


This is a popular misconception. While Louis may not have been as audacious and vocal as Ali he was nobodies whipping boy and carried himself with quiet dignity.

Ali is a great man, but I believe Louis did more for the plight of his people. Without the intervention of Joe Louis Jackie Robinson doesn't break baseball's color barrier and forever change the game. Without Louis taking a stand black military personal wouldn't have been allowed to see his boxing exhibitions during WWII. Louis not only carried his people on his back going into the second Schmeling fight, but the entire nation. Louis is also responsible for breaking the PGA's color barrier which didn't allow blacks to play on the tour.

Was Joe Louis a quiet man in comparison to Ali? Absolutely. Was he a compliant black man? Absolutely not.

MANIAC310
12-08-2011, 02:32 AM
Excellent post I still don't get why this kid compared Ali to Hitler....
Frankly i find it disturbing






comparing Ali to Hitler shows which way someone like you would vote..... ;)

What I meant was if Ali was f*cked in the ass the way Louis was by the goverment he wouldn't have just took it like a little b*tch to be patriotic.
Would he??

You realise The whole thing with Louis being humble was pre planned at the start of his career as a way to avoid another Jack Johnson situation?
The guy went out of his way to seem more white to be accepted by his nation. To me that's no role model at all, that's called a puppet.

Before you call me a Louis hater or whatever casual fans like you say as a comeback, you should check my previous posts and you'll see i rate the Brown Bomber very highly as a fighter, infact i think he could beat any HW that ever lived other than Ali.....

You should prob learn something before you comment in history section this ain't nsb kid..........



Exactly......
:)


Jesus Christ, from top to bottom both of your condescending ****ty post were not only wrong on the premise but they lead you to your ad hominem attack.

Attack a person's character rather than debate the point? Check

Establish your knowledge as superior to mine with your "kid" and "casual fan" remarks? check

Actually argue the point I was trying to make? nope
(which by the way southpaw stinger did perfectly)

and at the end of it all you still have the nerve to tell me to "go learn something before posting in the history section :lol1:

I didn't compare Ali to Hitler nor did I demonize him, I was showing how speaking your mind doesn't necessarily make you a good role model by giving you an example of another historic figure that also spoke his mind.

how hard is that to understand? I would expect a boxing scholar like yourself to be sharp enough to get an analogy made by a "casual fan" like myself.



btw didn't Muhammad Ali beat his wife publicly because her skirt was too short?

Slip Stream
12-08-2011, 02:48 AM
Great post.......
When I was a kid at school we were told the story of Ali throwin away his gold medal......
I'm sure you know the story......
And from that point on I thought Ali was the bees knees.
:)

If Ali was around in Louis time when black folks were more "compliant" as you put it, I think Ali would still have been Ali......

:)

Thanks for the thoughts brother, and I hope Ali would still be Ali if he found the boot of oppression squarly on his throat instead of just merely by it.


This is a popular misconception. While Louis may not have been as audacious and vocal as Ali he was nobodies whipping boy and carried himself with quiet dignity.

Ali is a great man, but I believe Louis did more for the plight of his people. Without the intervention of Joe Louis Jackie Robinson doesn't break baseball's color barrier and forever change the game. Without Louis taking a stand black military personal wouldn't have been allowed to see his boxing exhibitions during WWII. Louis not only carried his people on his back going into the second Schmeling fight, but the entire nation. Louis is also responsible for breaking the PGA's color barrier which didn't allow blacks to play on the tour.

Was Joe Louis a quiet man in comparison to Ali? Absolutely. Was he a compliant black man? Absolutely not.

See bro, I think we're saying the same thing just in different ways and from different perspectives. From my perspective, Ali was a gleaming god, a hero crafted from some brilliant light that shone from on high. He made me feel powerful as an African American, he touched my reality in a way Joe Louis simply can't and never will.

Louis carried the weight of an entire nation but it was an entire nation that wouldn’t give his people full rights or access. A nation that allowed human beings to be treated as if they were not as good as the whiter portion and a nation that kills its leaders that have principles and then has the audacity to later enshrine them.

From my perspective Ali was a fierce lion that roared and roared well.

JAB5239
12-08-2011, 03:03 AM
See bro, I think we're saying the same thing just in different ways and from different perspectives. From my perspective, Ali was a gleaming god, a hero crafted from some brilliant light that shone from on high. He made me feel powerful as an African American, he touched my reality in a way Joe Louis simply can't and never will.

Louis carried the weight of an entire nation but it was an entire nation that wouldn’t give his people full rights or access. A nation that allowed human beings to be treated as if they were not as good as the whiter portion and a nation that kills its leaders that have principles and then has the audacity to later enshrine them.

From my perspective Ali was a fierce lion that roared and roared well.

I can respect your opinion, though mine still differs. Blacks were still treated as second class citizens no matter how loud Ali roared. I respect his stand, his courage and his principles, but Louis actually did something to help his people in important and historical ways. I see Ali as an inspiration, but Louis as the guy who got things done. Just my opinion though. :beerchug:

Barnburner
12-08-2011, 03:19 AM
Joe Louis.

Slip Stream
12-08-2011, 03:26 AM
I can respect your opinion, though mine still differs. Blacks were still treated as second class citizens no matter how loud Ali roared. I respect his stand, his courage and his principles, but Louis actually did something to help his people in important and historical ways. I see Ali as an inspiration, but Louis as the guy who got things done. Just my opinion though. :beerchug:

I think one's contribution extends beyond any material effort, such as the instances you named for Mr. Louis. Ali as a person, as a phenomena, as a legend in the annals of boxing history does a tremendous amount of good in the African American community, especially as it pertains to how blacks view themselves.

I can tell you from a personal standpoint being black isn't everything it's cracked up to be on "The Game." In the real world there's so much uncertainty, so much fear, and useless rage, rage that is mitigated sometimes by the solitary light of rebellion and sheer audacity. Ali was all of that for the brave, that fighting spirit, that idea of being loud even if you're seemingly irrelevant.

I think Ali got things done just in a different way. I guess it's a meaningless matter of debate eh? :)

JAB5239
12-08-2011, 03:39 AM
I think one's contribution extends beyond any material effort, such as the instances you named for Mr. Louis. Ali as a person, as a phenomena, as a legend in the annals of boxing history does a tremendous amount of good in the African American community, especially as it pertains to how blacks view themselves.

I can tell you from a personal standpoint being black isn't everything it's cracked up to be on "The Game." In the real world there's so much uncertainty, so much fear, and useless rage, rage that is mitigated sometimes by the solitary light of rebellion and sheer audacity. Ali was all of that for the brave, that fighting spirit, that idea of being loud even if you're seemingly irrelevant.

I think Ali got things done just in a different way. I guess it's a meaningless matter of debate eh? :)

No debate my friend, just a different way of viewing things. :fing02:

Sugarj
12-08-2011, 08:00 AM
I'm not going to bring race into it. Just if either or both were good role models.

To be honest, its roughly equal to my mind. Before focussing on both their excellent qualities consider the following:

Joe Louis:

Bad Points
-Advertised cigarettes and smoked (certainly in retirement.....and yes, they knew back then that ciggies were bad for you!).
-Took and had addictions to many illegal drugs, cocaine etc.
-Was quite a womaniser and was alleged to have beat his wife.

Good Points
-Was a clean fighter in the ring.
-Handled himself with the utmost dignity.
-Donated purses to the war effort.


Muhammed Ali

Bad Points
-Ridiculed certain opponents to the point of being deeply hurtful.
-Prolonged fights with Patterson and Terrell almost cruelly.
-Was also a serial womaniser, certainly cheated on his wives.
-Could be termed a 'racist' towards white people.....at least early on in his life. He was very much influenced by the Black Muslims.

Good Points
-He genuinely stood up for his principles and sacrificed his title and prime years.
-He made black people proud to be black.
-He was extremely generous with his money.
-He lives a clean life in respect of drugs, alcohol etc.


Whether you like Louis's more reserved approach or Ali's in your face approach is largely down to opinion. But based on themselves as role models, this is roughly equal.

La_Vibora
12-08-2011, 09:17 AM
One thing I always found interesting was that Joe Louis did everything to separate himself from Jack Johnson saying he was going to be a different kind of champion, then when Ali came he did the exact same thing to Joe, saying that he didn't want to be like Joe, and instead admired Jack Johnson more.

It is said that before Joe Louis fought Max Schmeling, that Jack Johnson tried to get in contact with Joe Louis' camp because he said he wanted to show him a few things to make sure he won the fight, but Louis' camp wanted absolutely nothing to do with Johnson. Which is when Johnson told everyone that Schmeling was going to win and told them how he was going to win, but no one believed him until after it happened.

Back to the topic, I think both guys were exactly what was needed for their time. The world needed a Joe Louis type at that time and then needed an Ali type for his time. Jack Johnson on the other hand was just ahead of his time.

Barnburner
12-08-2011, 09:46 AM
Ali not personally apologizing to Frazier is the lowest of the low and shows in my opinion he lacked honour at that particular point.

Barnburner
12-08-2011, 09:49 AM
I'm not going to bring race into it. Just if either or both were good role models.

To be honest, its roughly equal to my mind. Before focussing on both their excellent qualities consider the following:

Joe Louis:

Bad Points
-Advertised cigarettes and smoked (certainly in retirement.....and yes, they knew back then that ciggies were bad for you!).
-Took and had addictions to many illegal drugs, cocaine etc.
-Was quite a womaniser and was alleged to have beat his wife.

Good Points
-Was a clean fighter in the ring.
-Handled himself with the utmost dignity.
-Donated purses to the war effort.


Muhammed Ali

Bad Points
-Ridiculed certain opponents to the point of being deeply hurtful.
-Prolonged fights with Patterson and Terrell almost cruelly.
-Was also a serial womaniser, certainly cheated on his wives.
-Could be termed a 'racist' towards white people.....at least early on in his life. He was very much influenced by the Black Muslims.

Good Points
-He genuinely stood up for his principles and sacrificed his title and prime years.
-He made black people proud to be black.
-He was extremely generous with his money.
-He lives a clean life in respect of drugs, alcohol etc.


Whether you like Louis's more reserved approach or Ali's in your face approach is largely down to opinion. But based on themselves as role models, this is roughly equal.
Ali also beat his wife.

Joe Louis also helped combat racial tension as his fight with Schmeling was one of the first instances in the U.S.A when blacks and whites stood side by side in supporting a black man against a white.

New England
12-08-2011, 10:19 AM
not touching this one with a ten foot pole

i will say that each man made his own mark in his own way and that both guys did have some admirable qualities


both guys transcended the sport during times of racial tension and were compelling figures in the eyes of folk from every background

Sugarj
12-08-2011, 10:55 AM
Ali also beat his wife.

Joe Louis also helped combat racial tension as his fight with Schmeling was one of the first instances in the U.S.A when blacks and whites stood side by side in supporting a black man against a white.


I was not aware that Ali beat his wife and I've read most literature and watched most documentaries about him. I gather that he might have torn Sonji's clothes in a row about ideal dress wear for a Muslim woman though.

I'm with you regarding the stance in the US regarding the second Schmelling fight. I've just been more inclined to look at their characters than achievements that may be more incidental to the times.

JAB5239
12-08-2011, 11:11 AM
-Was quite a womaniser and was alleged to have beat his wife.

I don't recall ever hearing or reading anything about any alleged allegations of Louis beating his wife. He did admit hitting his lover, actress Lena Horne, in a fit of anger, but that is the ONLY incident I've ever heard of and to my knowledge she never spoke of it and charges were never filed.

La_Vibora
12-08-2011, 11:30 AM
I was not aware that Ali beat his wife and I've read most literature and watched most documentaries about him. I gather that he might have torn Sonji's clothes in a row about ideal dress wear for a Muslim woman though.

I'm with you regarding the stance in the US regarding the second Schmelling fight. I've just been more inclined to look at their characters than achievements that may be more incidental to the times.

Actually, wasn't the story that Ali was slapping around his wife when Ray Robinson tried to jump in to calm things down, when Ali just threw Ray out of the way and said "Ray, you're just a welterweight"?

Hitman Hodgson
12-08-2011, 11:35 AM
I've always found it strange how boxers are considered role models for kids when they beat people up for a living. Both were great fighters but thats all.

Sugarj
12-08-2011, 11:59 AM
I don't recall ever hearing or reading anything about any alleged allegations of Louis beating his wife. He did admit hitting his lover, actress Lena Horne, in a fit of anger, but that is the ONLY incident I've ever heard of and to my knowledge she never spoke of it and charges were never filed.

Thats why I said 'alleged'. I gather that it might have been over a game of golf from memory.

JAB5239
12-08-2011, 12:04 PM
Thats why I said 'alleged'. I gather that it might have been over a game of golf from memory.

Yeah, thats the Lena Horne incident you're thinking of.

Sugarj
12-08-2011, 12:07 PM
Actually, wasn't the story that Ali was slapping around his wife when Ray Robinson tried to jump in to calm things down, when Ali just threw Ray out of the way and said "Ray, you're just a welterweight"?


That is the incident which I'm referring to. It is documented in Ali's biography 'The Greatest' by Richard Durham.

I gather that everything was behind closed doors and I wasn't aware that Ali 'threw' Robinson out of the way.....though I do remember the 'welterweight' quote, despite Robinson being at least Middleweight in the mid 60s. I don't remember reading that Ali hit her, I gather he tore her dress trying to pull it down from thigh level. I'm sure there was alot of noise though!!

The problem is, that event is dramatised in the film 'The Greatest'.....which is based on the same book. The only problem is, there was no Ray Robinson in the film. So I do wonder how true it might have been.

Ali may well have hit a female in his life, but I'm not aware of any reported incidents.

joseph5620
12-08-2011, 12:32 PM
Jesus Christ, from top to bottom both of your condescending ****ty post were not only wrong on the premise but they lead you to your ad hominem attack.

Attack a person's character rather than debate the point? Check

Establish your knowledge as superior to mine with your "kid" and "casual fan" remarks? check

Actually argue the point I was trying to make? nope
(which by the way southpaw stinger did perfectly)

and at the end of it all you still have the nerve to tell me to "go learn somjething before posting in the history section :lol1:

I didn't compare Ali to Hitler nor did I demonize him, I was showing how speaking your mind doesn't necessarily make you a good role model by giving you an example of another historic figure that also spoke his mind.

how hard is that to understand? I would expect a boxing scholar like yourself to be sharp enough to get an analogy made by a "casual fan" like myself.



btw didn't Muhammad Ali beat his wife publicly because her skirt was too short?



Joe Louis beat Lena Horne and had substance abuse issues.Yeah Ali had faults but Louis was no saint either.

kendom
12-08-2011, 12:46 PM
I apologize for limiting it to black people I guess I was still emotionally attached to the documentary, please ignore the thread title

lightsout_finit
12-08-2011, 01:11 PM
Jesus Christ, from top to bottom both of your condescending ****ty post were not only wrong on the premise but they lead you to your ad hominem attack.

Attack a person's character rather than debate the point? Check

Establish your knowledge as superior to mine with your "kid" and "casual fan" remarks? check

Actually argue the point I was trying to make? nope
(which by the way southpaw stinger did perfectly)

and at the end of it all you still have the nerve to tell me to "go learn something before posting in the history section :lol1:

I didn't compare Ali to Hitler nor did I demonize him, I was showing how speaking your mind doesn't necessarily make you a good role model by giving you an example of another historic figure that also spoke his mind.

how hard is that to understand? I would expect a boxing scholar like yourself to be sharp enough to get an analogy made by a "casual fan" like myself.



btw didn't Muhammad Ali beat his wife publicly because her skirt was too short?

Attack your character rather than debate the point??
You didn't make any point kid.

Yes I Established my knowledge is better than yours....
Cos it is! ;)

You sound like a kid losing a school debate not someone who has a passion for boxing.

Your analogy was poor. Why would you need to point out all people who speak their minds aren't role models??? We're not talking about all people
just Ali And Louis. I think everyone on here is well informed enough to know what Ali was like back then and what he stood for. So there was absolutely no reason for you to make your child like point was there?? What are you going to enlighten us with next?? The sky is blue??
And you called me condescending......... lol ;)

unless your just trying to associate Ali with something/someone negative.
The topic is role models and you brought up Hitler...... ;)


Interesting how you didn't respond to anything i said about Louis image
being manufactured and claim i didn't debate the point.

Ali was a wife beater huh.........
Louis was a junky and a womaniser.......

Barnburner
12-08-2011, 01:24 PM
Actually, wasn't the story that Ali was slapping around his wife when Ray Robinson tried to jump in to calm things down, when Ali just threw Ray out of the way and said "Ray, you're just a welterweight"?
That's the one I had in mind.

Slip Stream
12-08-2011, 02:04 PM
Just out of curiosity I wonder how many of those that took the poll were "white" and how many were "black?"

#1Assassin
12-08-2011, 03:01 PM
ali hands down.

louis was a great fighter and the first black HW champion that white america liked, which helped black ppl. but the reason white america liked him was he played the "good negro" and acted like they wanted. he did that bcuz his own success was more important than standing up for his ppl. thats not a good role model for black ppl.

ali was the oposite, he didnt let white ppl hold him down or tell him to act a certain way. he wasnt willing to be a house n.igga, even when it meant giving up his career. through his actions black ppl all over the world finally realized that they were just as good as whites and didnt need to be what white america wanted them to be. he spoke for himself, he didnt need white ppl to do it for him. he celebrated his wins, he didnt let white ppl tell him not to bcuz it might upset some racist redneck.

ali taught millions of black ppl to stand up and be proud of themselves while louis taught them to sit down and be quiet while mr boss man was talking.

Barnburner
12-08-2011, 03:37 PM
ali hands down.

louis was a great fighter and the first black HW champion that white america liked, which helped black ppl. but the reason white america liked him was he played the "good negro" and acted like they wanted. he did that bcuz his own success was more important than standing up for his ppl. thats not a good role model for black ppl.

ali was the oposite, he didnt let white ppl hold him down or tell him to act a certain way. he wasnt willing to be a house n.igga, even when it meant giving up his career. through his actions black ppl all over the world finally realized that they were just as good as whites and didnt need to be what white america wanted them to be. he spoke for himself, he didnt need white ppl to do it for him. he celebrated his wins, he didnt let white ppl tell him not to bcuz it might upset some racist redneck.

ali taught millions of black ppl to stand up and be proud of themselves while louis taught them to sit down and be quiet while mr boss man was talking.
Louis only did all those rules so he was kept in favour so he could get a title shot. When he made the big stakes he dropped that act.

Slip Stream
12-08-2011, 03:47 PM
It’s funny how some folks went to personal flaws, as if that is a reason to disqualify someone from greatness. The "truth" is never as aggrandized as we imagine it, our truths are often more subtle and human. Countless figures that we hold up could not bear up under a moral scrutiny. Most people’s lives are infinitely more complex than a splash of images, a fight well fought, or a sound bite at the end of the day that goes sliding mindlessly down some stiff’s teleprompter.

So the "real" Ali may disappoint me in some areas, but it is the fact that we rise that gives me succor. We are a resilient people, the human race; we find ways to be successful even when circumstances clearly say otherwise. The Ali that matters to me is the gleaming god, the defiant one, and the one that has always held his head up high.

"To escape criticism - do nothing, say nothing, be nothing."

~Elbert Hubbard~

pwilky
12-08-2011, 03:55 PM
It would have been very interesting if their birthdays were reversed!

Would Ali have had the courage to stand up for civil rights in the manner he did a generation earlier?

Would Louis have been content to play the "uncle Tom" role with the Civil Rights Movement in full flight?

Despite abhoring the emphasis he placed on religion, I, personally, have a grudging admiration for Ali the person, while am ambivalent towards Louis' character.

Barnburner
12-08-2011, 04:08 PM
It’s funny how some folks went to personal flaws, as if that is a reason to disqualify someone from greatness. The "truth" is never as aggrandized as we imagine it, our truths are often more subtle and human. Countless figures that we hold up could not bear up under a moral scrutiny. Most people’s lives are infinitely more complex than a splash of images, a fight well fought, or a sound bite at the end of the day that goes sliding mindlessly down some stiff’s teleprompter.

So the "real" Ali may disappoint me in some areas, but it is the fact that we rise that gives me succor. We are a resilient people, the human race; we find ways to be successful even when circumstances clearly say otherwise. The Ali that matters to me is the gleaming god, the defiant one, and the one that has always held his head up high.

"To escape criticism - do nothing, say nothing, be nothing."

~Elbert Hubbard~
How's it funny that we result to personal flaws when comparing them as people...

Slip Stream
12-08-2011, 04:20 PM
How's it funny that we result to personal flaws when comparing them as people...

Dunno, maybe its just from the way I see it.

El_Forklift
12-08-2011, 04:33 PM
I voted Ali since all the masses that he captured... But Joe is better but not that famous...

Slip Stream
12-08-2011, 05:10 PM
I'm still curious though about the white to black ratio of the poll.

Dudley
12-08-2011, 05:38 PM
I voted for joe louis but then again I'm a white person

Bro colour doesn't mean ****!

You know who is a good role model for black people, human beings that are doing right in the world.

BigStereotype
12-08-2011, 05:47 PM
Bro colour doesn't mean ****!

You know who is a good role model for black people, human beings that are doing right in the world.

Absolutely dude. People trying to make separations based on color is ****ing stuff up.

Slip Stream
12-08-2011, 06:16 PM
Bro colour doesn't mean ****!

You know who is a good role model for black people, human beings that are doing right in the world.

Actually friend color means an awful lot especially to those that haven't been white. Things aren't as simple as you want them to be, granted I wish the world were this simple but it isn't. The fact is the color of one's skin makes a difference from how one is accepted, to what kind of justice you receive, or how much money you can make.

I'm not angered by this is fact, it is what it is, but to deny it, to act as if "white privilege" is a delusion of Louis C.K. is amazingly naive. I chose the figure that meant the most to me as an African American and stated as much.

Barnburner
12-08-2011, 06:56 PM
Joe Louis was a credit to his race, the human race.

And my ethnicity matters not considering both were African Americans anyway.

Capaedia
12-08-2011, 07:01 PM
I'm still curious though about the white to black ratio of the poll.

I'm white and I voted Louis.

But I'm not an American

DarkTerror88
12-08-2011, 07:54 PM
A Role Model is defined based on personal beliefs. But it is painfully obvious that Joe Louis was a much better and kinder human being than the man named Muhammad Ali.

BigStereotype
12-08-2011, 08:40 PM
A Role Model is defined based on personal beliefs. But it is painfully obvious that Joe Louis was a much better and kinder human being than the man named Muhammad Ali.

Wait...you're telling me that you DON'T like Ali? :p

DarkTerror88
12-08-2011, 09:10 PM
Wait...you're telling me that you DON'T like Ali? :p

I firmly believe that Ali was being used by the NoI. He was their greatest tool. As great as a fighter he was, Elijah Muhammad took his hand, crammed it up Ali's ass and worked him like a puppet for most of his career. And he wasnt very nice either.

Slip Stream
12-08-2011, 09:22 PM
http://allswagga.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/MuhammadAli.jpg

"Rumble young man rumble..."

~Muhammad Ali~

Forza
12-08-2011, 10:43 PM
Actually friend color means an awful lot especially to those that haven't been white. Things aren't as simple as you want them to be, granted I wish the world were this simple but it isn't. The fact is the color of one's skin makes a difference from how one is accepted, to what kind of justice you receive, or how much money you can make.

I'm not angered by this is fact, it is what it is, but to deny it, to act as if "white privilege" is a delusion of Louis C.K. is amazingly naive. I chose the figure that meant the most to me as an African American and stated as much.

It's a 2 way street with the way you're treated based on color, especially with PC liberalism running wild in America.

No doubt in Ali's time blacks were treated 1000x worse but times have changed and the white man now gets shafted to fill racial quotas

Slip Stream
12-08-2011, 11:12 PM
It's a 2 way street with the way you're treated based on color, especially with PC liberalism running wild in America.

No doubt in Ali's time blacks were treated 1000x worse but times have changed and the white man now gets shafted to fill racial quotas

Well no, I don't actually see it as a two way street because "political correctness" no matter how run amok will never replace discrimination and racism in the US. Times have changed and there's no denying that and they were changing before Americans elected the first "black" president. So I can't in any way say that things have not changed, they have, but in matters that are most important to Black Americans like income, health care, and education we consistently lag behind.

Imho there is an institutional mechanism in place that guides alot of our behaviors, most folks are comfortable with the status quo and don't want to buck the system, even if it noticeably improves the everyday value of their own lives.

Racial quotas are an artificial solution to preference, it happens in daily life from who we choose to associate with to where we choose to live. Quotas don't address racial stereotypes, or common misconceptions or blind ignorance. Quotas are a means to level a playing field that inherently can't be leveled because some preferences are so second nature most people never think about what they mean or how they affect the lives of others.

I think this is one of the reasons I love Floyd Mayweather so much, he's defiant and speaks his mind. He isn't one of those kind of "compliant" sort of folks that puts fort an image of wholesomeness and humility, he let's his personality out and I really appreciate that.

GrandpaBernard
12-08-2011, 11:26 PM
Ali did what he wanted and didn't get ripped off in the end

Louis broke his back for the US of A, and the system came down hard on him later in life

who would you rather be?

F l i c k e r
12-09-2011, 02:42 AM
Wasn't Louis a playboy though? I can't seem to shake the image of him in a convertable with bad *****es in the ride. I swear I seen that a pic of him like that before.

Ali is just not a good role model. In terms of wanting to be on top of a sport, sure. To conduct yourself as a human being. No.

Andre Ward. That's a better role model.

Barnburner
12-09-2011, 02:55 AM
http://allswagga.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/MuhammadAli.jpg

"Rumble young man rumble..."

~Muhammad Ali~
Notice him gloating...

Superflo777
12-09-2011, 09:10 AM
Though question to answer, but it should read who is the better role model for everyone, not just black people but in general. I'd still say Ali did the better choices in life, by resisting the draft (considering the circumstances) and supporting the black civil rights movement, while Joe Louis did just what the white man wanted him to do, and he got utilized and robbed by doing that (e.g. having to pay taxes for money he donated to the government). It more or less teaches people to always obey orders and not fight for your own will. Considering the time he lived in, it's understandable, but I'd still say Ali is the better role model for people in the end.

Barnburner
12-09-2011, 10:35 AM
Though question to answer, but it should read who is the better role model for everyone, not just black people but in general. I'd still say Ali did the better choices in life, by resisting the draft (considering the circumstances) and supporting the black civil rights movement, while Joe Louis did just what the white man wanted him to do, and he got utilized and robbed by doing that (e.g. having to pay taxes for money he donated to the government). It more or less teaches people to always obey orders and not fight for your own will. Considering the time he lived in, it's understandable, but I'd still say Ali is the better role model for people in the end.
Or you can do what Ali did and do what the black man told him.

Works both ways.

GrandpaBernard
12-09-2011, 12:07 PM
Wasn't Louis a playboy though? I can't seem to shake the image of him in a convertable with bad *****es in the ride. I swear I seen that a pic of him like that before.

Ali is just not a good role model. In terms of wanting to be on top of a sport, sure. To conduct yourself as a human being. No.

Andre Ward. That's a better role model.Yea, he was.

Louis just kept it low key. He was very restricted and controlled in the public light.

IronDanHamza
12-09-2011, 02:06 PM
I firmly believe that Ali was being used by the NoI. He was their greatest tool. As great as a fighter he was, Elijah Muhammad took his hand, crammed it up Ali's ass and worked him like a puppet for most of his career. And he wasnt very nice either.

Who didn't he do that to?

That was Elijah's gift. He somehow managed to get people to believe his bullsh*t.

nomadman
12-12-2011, 06:16 AM
Very difficult question to answer and therefore an excellent question to ask.

I think it really all depends on what you consider a rolemodel's function to be, whether it's to help his people find their unique voice or if it's to provide a paragon of virtue for his people to aspire to in order to assimilate into the society they live in. Ali provided the former, Louis provided the latter. I can't say either man was wrong in what he aspired to be.

Ali of course is the more obvious choice given his flair for theatrics and his incredible charisma. He was a great rolemodel for black youths at the time he was fighting; he brought an outspokenness, a pride and a confidence to black people that they sorely needed at that time in order to break out of the circle of oppression they were subject to. He was a necessary evil, a punch in the guts for an American society that needed to treat their black citizens as equals, not with condescension, not with hatred, not with fear or kneejerk love but with the equality that they would give to any white citizen.

His qualities, however, I can't say are universal, and in this present society I can't in all honesty say he should be looked up to, except as a man who achieved great things through great hardships and remained himself against all attempts to change him. Those who attempt to mimic him, his trashtalking, his confidence and ****iness I find frequently end up conceited, arrogant and obnoxious because they don't understand the times in which he was living and the necessity in what he had to become in order to achieve what he achieved.

Louis on the contrary was quiet and respectful, qualities which for some reason have become villified in today's society, though they really shouldn't be. He was a man whom anyone could respect, regardless of race, and provided those sorts of universal qualities that any person on this planet would recognise as virtuous. I'd say he was a better rolemodel for today's black youth, and for youth in general; he's certainly a man I'd have looked up to were he competing today, much as the Klitschkos are. He provides a more universal model for being a productive and respected memeber of society than Ali was. Which isn't to say he was a better rolemodel of course.

If you were to press me to answer I'd say Louis simply because he embodies virtues which I consider to be more important as a living conscious being on this planet. Ali, however, cannot be questioned in what he achieved, either in its goal or as its worth as a goal.

Both men were great. Let's leave it at that.

Slip Stream
12-12-2011, 11:03 AM
The way that the question was posed makes it very difficult for someone to answer if they aren't black. I'm not saying that someone that's white can't empathized with, or even understand certain aspects of the black experience but if you aren't black how can one truly understand what's important to that people? How could one be audacious enough to say who is a better role model if they don't belong to that community?

If the question omitted "black" and just said people, that's a different question entirely that opens it up for anyone to answer but as it stands it's far too specific.

joseph5620
12-12-2011, 12:36 PM
The way that the question was posed makes it very difficult for someone to answer if they aren't black. I'm not saying that someone that's white can't empathized with, or even understand certain aspects of the black experience but if you aren't black how can one truly understand what's important to that people? How could one be audacious enough to say who is a better role model if they don't belong to that community?

If the question omitted "black" and just said people, that's a different question entirely that opens it up for anyone to answer but as it stands it's far too specific.

When race is used as a thread topic on boxingscene it never goes well. When idiots like "maniac" post their worthless opinions in here you can see it.

Slip Stream
12-12-2011, 01:22 PM
When race is used as a thread topic on boxingscene it never goes well. When idiots like "maniac" post their worthless opinions in here you can see it.

I can see how this is true; when some posters just take too little time to read a post, think about it, and thoughtfully answer it misunderstandings can and do result. Race can be covered and discussed, but I think the difficult part comes in if it's avoided. In the past I've wanted to create threads about race because I wanted BS to know how I felt. There were so many comments about Floyd Mayweather's race and things of a racial nature that had nothing to do with his skill in the ring.

I don't know how many black members there are here but reading about Floyd being a monkey and other various things has been very frustrating and threatening. But I don't want to give up trying to discuss feelings, impressions, and insights as long as they're thoughtful.

Sugarj
12-12-2011, 04:52 PM
Very difficult question to answer and therefore an excellent question to ask.

I think it really all depends on what you consider a rolemodel's function to be, wether it's to help his people find their unique voice or if it's to provide a paragon of virtue for his people to aspire to in order to assimilate into the society they live in. Ali provided the former, Louis provided the latter. I can't say either man was wrong in what he aspired to be.

Ali of course is the more obvious choice given his flair for theatrics and his incredible charisma. He was a great rolemodel for black youths at the time he was fighting; he brought an outspokenness, a pride and a confidence to black people that they sorely needed at that time in order to break out of the circle of oppression they were subject to. He was a necessary evil, a punch in the guts for an American society that needed to treat their black citizens as equals, not with condescension, not with hatred, not with fear or kneejerk love but with the equality that they would give to any white citizen.

His qualities, however, I can't say are universal, and in this present society I can't in all honesty say he should be looked up to, except as a man who achieved great things through great hardships and remained himself against all attempts to change him. Those who attempt to mimic him, his trashtalking, his confidence and ****iness I find frequently end up conceited, arrogant and obnoxious because they don't understand the times in which he was living and the necessity in what he had to become in order to achieve what he achieved.

Louis on the contrary was quiet and respectful, qualities which for some reason have become villified in today's society, though they really shouldn't be. He was a man whom anyone could respect, regardless of race, and provided those sorts of universal qualities that any person on this planet would recognise as virtuous. I'd say he was a better rolemodel for today's black youth, and for youth in general; he's certainly a man I'd have looked up to were he competing today, much as the Klitschkos are. He provides a more universal model for being a productive and respected memeber of society than Ali was. Which isn't to say he was a better rolemodel of course.

If you were to press me to answer I'd say Louis simply because he embodies virtues which I consider to be more important as a living conscious being on this planet. Ali, however, cannot be questioned in what he achieved, either in its goal or as its worth as a goal.

Both men were great. Let's leave it at that.


I enjoyed this post.

Forza
12-12-2011, 06:27 PM
It's a shame there is no middle ground. Joe Louis was too quiet, Ali bragged and gloated too much.

Nobody is perfect though. And in the savage sport of boxing both are great guys. So louis did some drugs at the end of his boxing days, I don't hold that against him I like a party too. So Ali smacked his wife once (said he deeply regretted it afterwards) and was a little hateful towards whites but as a white man I forgive him as I don't think he hated white people, just hated being hated and I know how that feels.

GJC
12-13-2011, 01:29 AM
One thing I always found interesting was that Joe Louis did everything to separate himself from Jack Johnson saying he was going to be a different kind of champion, then when Ali came he did the exact same thing to Joe, saying that he didn't want to be like Joe, and instead admired Jack Johnson more.

It is said that before Joe Louis fought Max Schmeling, that Jack Johnson tried to get in contact with Joe Louis' camp because he said he wanted to show him a few things to make sure he won the fight, but Louis' camp wanted absolutely nothing to do with Johnson. Which is when Johnson told everyone that Schmeling was going to win and told them how he was going to win, but no one believed him until after it happened.

Back to the topic, I think both guys were exactly what was needed for their time. The world needed a Joe Louis type at that time and then needed an Ali type for his time. Jack Johnson on the other hand was just ahead of his time.
Good post I would say more that both men were products of their time. Jack Johnson I think by his nature would be a wild card in any time. Difficult to speak on the effect they had for black people not being black but I don't think Ali would have helped their cause much had he had been around in Louis time. Louis was what was needed for then, an "acceptable" champion for the masses after the divisive Johnson. They probably have more in common than most think. Both manipulated to a point, both ended up losing pretty much all their money and their health but both were fantastic champions. Can't discount their personalities, Louis was a quieter man so whether he could have been a been as much of a spokesman as Ali is doubtful. Didn't care much for the NoI, anyone who promotes division between races isn't for me. Such a shame Ali has not been able to speak these past 20 years he could have done so much good.

NoLove
12-14-2011, 02:32 AM
Louis. People like Ali start hate.

joseph5620
12-14-2011, 04:13 AM
Louis. People like Ali start hate.

Just another idiot adding a worthless opinion to this stupid thread.

Dynamite76
12-22-2011, 03:33 PM
Both in different ways.Louis kept up the goody-goody image in the 40's because he had to, not to say that he wasn't a decent person, he was, but times were different.Ali, as previously mentioned, had the benefit of being in the 60's, so he could definitely speak his mind to some degree.But, unfortunately, both were terrible whoremongers.

chiguy91
12-22-2011, 03:59 PM
both men were great but like It's Ovah said (great post btw) louis was the clean spoken gentleman in public society would accept, ali wasn't. i know this is louis/ali but check this videos out, his son explains how he was told to be and how he was.
<object width="420" height="315"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/KtUXOttKGaM?version=3&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/KtUXOttKGaM?version=3&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="420" height="315" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

here's the entire documentary (Joe Louis - America's Hero Betrayed)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-y83kTl95qI

Slip Stream
12-22-2011, 04:21 PM
And Louis received what any "compliant" black would receive regardless of his obedience, a cold dose of reality. In the end compliance isn't enough, fitting in isn't enough, being America's hero isn't enough because it will never change the color of his skin or his status in society. America's hero ended up flat broke and eventually transformed into a freakish caricature of his former self.

As long as the best and most true parts of a person are neatly tucked within the compartment of "correct" social behavior things never change. Changes occur when boldness is present, when someone decides they***8217;ve had enough and sit somewhere different on a bus, or when they peacefully march in droves down a city street.

What a black man is today can only truly be understood under an Ali archetype, because Ali could be more of himself. Alot of these cats out there that agents and promoters try to market are nothing more than cartoons crafted to make money but when we look closer we see drug addicts, womanizers, and abusers. What we see is the person, flawed perhaps but real and someone all of us can identify with if not ultimately despise.

I can't identify with compliancy, not when my natural instinct is to resist. I'm glad I was raised in a world where I can be more of myself and feel comfortable about doing so, because rise or fall, it'll be the real me.

studentofthegam
12-22-2011, 06:47 PM
Hard to say.

Marchegiano
12-24-2011, 12:08 PM
Well, as a cracker I feel like it's maybe not my place to say. I'll say this though. Race is of the utmost irrelevance when thinking of achievements. I never in my life have ever even postulated who the best white anything is, nor have I questioned sex. I'd be perfectly comfortable in a world where the KO king was 110lb 180 year old asain woman. The idea that being black and successful automatically qualifies you as a role model is in itself racist. The idea that a man can be a hero to a race is flawed. You might agree with say MLK about racial issues, but what of religion? Gay rights etc? It's funny ho0w often gays lean on Martin...he'd told them they're going to hell...but since that have a similarity he's major reference. In short, just because your black doesn't mean either one of them serves as a good role-model. I'd say if you want to take a look at how to use public opinion in your favor in regard to negative or positive sentiments one of the two would be a great model. I've always wondered. Mostly as a child. Why positive connotations make racism ok. Not to be a whiney hippie...In fact I honestly feel it's racism the recognizes racism......kinda like the old little mermaid cover. You've got to have a dirty mind to see the dildo tower. Most kids didn't recognize it until dirty whore moms pointed it out...it's underhanded.

Barnburner
12-24-2011, 05:43 PM
Well, as a cracker I feel like it's maybe not my place to say. I'll say this though. Race is of the utmost irrelevance when thinking of achievements. I never in my life have ever even postulated who the best white anything is, nor have I questioned sex. I'd be perfectly comfortable in a world where the KO king was 110lb 180 year old asain woman. The idea that being black and successful automatically qualifies you as a role model is in itself racist. The idea that a man can be a hero to a race is flawed. You might agree with say MLK about racial issues, but what of religion? Gay rights etc? It's funny ho0w often gays lean on Martin...he'd told them they're going to hell...but since that have a similarity he's major reference. In short, just because your black doesn't mean either one of them serves as a good role-model. I'd say if you want to take a look at how to use public opinion in your favor in regard to negative or positive sentiments one of the two would be a great model. I've always wondered. Mostly as a child. Why positive connotations make racism ok. Not to be a whiney hippie...In fact I honestly feel it's racism the recognizes racism......kinda like the old little mermaid cover. You've got to have a dirty mind to see the dildo tower. Most kids didn't recognize it until dirty whore moms pointed it out...it's underhanded.

:lol1: I'm a honkie also.