View Full Version : Are Champions born or made?


Hyper Knuckles
12-05-2011, 10:05 AM
Through hard work alone, can any boxer become the best in the world? Or does it take natural gifts to survive at the very top?

Harry Balls
12-05-2011, 10:18 AM
depends on the competition.

If someone with better physical attributes work as hard as the guy with less "talent" then he will probably be better.

It's also not only about hard work. It's about being efficient.
As the saying goes "Practice does not make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect".

To think someone is born to do something. Talking about god given talent etc is quite absurd however.
The best athletes in the world are more often than not also the hardest workers.

Talent is real. It does exist. But i really think it's not as large a factor as most people believe.
It's mostly so widespread because people want an excuse to not work hard enough. They want to quit and give up because "they don't have that talent thats needed".

SBleeder
12-05-2011, 11:01 AM
As is the case in any sport, and really any endeavor period, the answer is "both".

There is no amount of work I could have ever put in which would have made me a world champion.

New England
12-05-2011, 11:48 AM
Through hard work alone, can any boxer become the best in the world? Or does it take natural gifts to survive at the very top?



i hate to say it but if you dont have talent you'll end up on the recieving end in boxing


hard work is a necessary ingredient in the creation of a great boxer, certanly
and i'd argue it's the only commonality in every great boxer, but you need physical talent that you brought into the sport to make it to the top and be successful


not everybody is going to be blindingly fast, or a murderous puncher, but to be a professional boxer you need to be supremely durable
you have to make it through training without sustaining injuries

your average joe wouldnt last a week in the gym and running.
maybe when he's in his teens but not when he's into his 20's and 30's

you have to be an athlete, if that means anything (kind of like using the word in the definition)

talent is necessary to be successful in boxing.
you dont have to be the most talented to be the best
but you do need talent.

IronDanHamza
12-05-2011, 12:27 PM
I think so.

Just going by basic terms. I think great fighters are born.

Guys like Robinson, Greb, Charles all the way to Mayweather and Pacquaio, were born to be great fighter, I believe. The second they left the womb they were going to become great fighters.

And all the great fighters, Lamotta, Louis, Duran, all of the greats.

Of course, these guys had to put the dedication and work into it to achieve that greatness. You need both.

But as another poster said, a long long long list as people could work as hard as Floyd Mayweather but they will never be Floyd Mayweather. Even if they worked even harder than he does, 5 times as hard even, they still wouldn't be able to even make as a fighter in general.

You need to 'have it' to be a great. IMO.

Scott9945
12-05-2011, 12:58 PM
As is the case in any sport, and really any endeavor period, the answer is "both".

There is no amount of work I could have ever put in which would have made me a world champion.

Of course. Just like thousands of high school baseball players. No matter how hard they work and how much PED's they consume, they'll never get a sniff of the big leagues. It's not like the entertainment business where you can be at the right place at the right time. Boxing in particular reveals the truth pretty quickly.

F l i c k e r
12-05-2011, 04:16 PM
Individual sports.... Made.


Team sports.... Born.



Reason being. No matter how much talent you have, if you don't work hard at individual sports, you will suck.

Ex: Roger Federer, born with crazy talent. Worked hard as hell as a junior and a pro, until he become unfathomable. While David Nalbandian, born with crazy talent, beat Fed as a junior. Never worked hard at the pro level, not half the professional Federer is.

Or.... Zab Judah. More talent than just about anyone. Didn't work hard as a youngin' and is weak minded.... crap. Rocky Marciano, no talent, still became a champion winning every fight.


Team sports is different because you need an extra edge over the hundreds and thousands of other people playing the same sport and working just as hard as you. Something that makes you stand out. Due to multiple people playing at once, rather than you looking out for yourself.

So kinda both. :lol1:

The Surgeon
12-05-2011, 06:23 PM
Natural talents can make it and hard workers with good trainers can make it too, combine the two and u have champions like Floyd Mayweather who despite his natural god given ability and the longevity of his career STILL trains like an animal

SBleeder
12-05-2011, 07:05 PM
Or.... Zab Judah. More talent than just about anyone. Didn't work hard as a youngin' and is weak minded.... crap.

Judah made it farther than 99% of everyone who has competed in the sport, which would include all the club fighters who train like maniacs.

Miburo
12-05-2011, 07:08 PM
A matter of degrees, and also varies between sports. I think hitting in baseball may be the most talent-dependent ability in sports. If you're not born with that physical potential you will never have it no matter how hard you work.

Forza
12-05-2011, 08:42 PM
John Ruiz became a HW champ. He was really nothing special at all talent wise, major over achiever.

And dude who said marciano had no talent, are you kidding me? Sure he wasn't the most technical but he had underrated boxing skills. He wouldn't be 49-0 if that were the case.

Miburo
12-05-2011, 08:46 PM
John Ruiz became a HW champ. He was really nothing special at all talent wise, major over achiever.

And dude who said marciano had no talent, are you kidding me? Sure he wasn't the most technical but he had underrated boxing skills. He wouldn't be 49-0 if that were the case.

Marciano was one of the most raw ever when he started, he really had zero boxing talent but high talent as an athlete. Once he was a finished product he was underrated skill-wise, but it did not come from talent. Most rigorously trained fighter to this day, just insane endurance and willingness to put in the hard work.

F l i c k e r
12-05-2011, 08:49 PM
John Ruiz became a HW champ. He was really nothing special at all talent wise, major over achiever.

And dude who said marciano had no talent, are you kidding me? Sure he wasn't the most technical but he had underrated boxing skills. He wouldn't be 49-0 if that were the case.


I like Marciano.

But he said it himself that he had no talent. He wasn't like Ali, in other words.

DarkTerror88
12-05-2011, 11:07 PM
The fire inside someones heart, that burns intensely, that drives them to succed, to never give up.

The mentality to get better and better until you have reached your limits, then to break past that wall and get better and better still, is not something that can be taught. You have it or you dont. Although there are talents like speed, timing, balance, etc, i think the burning desire that exists only in a champions heart is the most important thing. All the others can be worked around.

Someone88
12-06-2011, 12:28 AM
John Ruiz became a HW champ. He was really nothing special at all talent wise, major over achiever.

And dude who said marciano had no talent, are you kidding me? Sure he wasn't the most technical but he had underrated boxing skills. He wouldn't be 49-0 if that were the case.

Marciano was one of the most raw ever when he started, he really had zero boxing talent but high talent as an athlete. Once he was a finished product he was underrated skill-wise, but it did not come from talent. Most rigorously trained fighter to this day, just insane endurance and willingness to put in the hard work.

I like Marciano.

But he said it himself that he had no talent. He wasn't like Ali, in other words.

I'm assuming you guys know this already but didn't Marciano start Boxing at the age of 20? That should be considered and it actually shows how talented Marciano was to be able to become a World Champion still

EdMon917
12-06-2011, 12:40 AM
To me, you can work on the reflexes, power, conditioning, all that good stuff but if you don't have the drive you don't have drive. The desire and determination to be the best and stay the best has to be in you from the start.

IronDanHamza
12-06-2011, 09:13 AM
Rocky Marciao hit like a truck, that's talent.

He was born with the ability. Like Tedd Atlas likes to say; "Punchers are born", IMO.

You could take a baseball bat to the ring and you still wouldn't knock him out, that's another talent he was blessed with.

Rocky Marciano was born to be a fighter, no doubt about it.

Of course he had talent.

BennyST
12-06-2011, 09:51 AM
Pacquiao was born and all champions ever are his children.

BennyST
12-06-2011, 09:58 AM
Born. The very greatest are born. The crappy ABC 'champions' of today are made. The true champions were born. The reason being that back when it actually meant something to be a champion, you needed both dedication, and the natural talent. If you were missing either you had no hope at all. Today, you have lots of hope. Rios, talent but a bit of a lack of dedication. Would have been wiped out by guys with similar talent but much more dedication decades ago.

Champions are born with the will, dedication and the skill and natural talent to succeed as a fighter.

The dedication and will to succeed is as much a part of their make up as the physical skill to be able to succeed.

Hyper Knuckles
12-07-2011, 04:32 AM
Pacquiao was born and all champions ever are his children.

Cool story bro.

GoogleMe
12-07-2011, 05:35 AM
Boxing is not only about talent. You can be any athletic freak, but you have to be smart to be a top level fighter. There's boxing IQ, and that's somethingh you're born with also.

kidcaramel
12-07-2011, 06:24 AM
Pacquiao was born and all champions ever are his children.

This actually made me laugh. Thank you.

Harry Balls
12-07-2011, 07:32 AM
Boxing is not only about talent. You can be any athletic freak, but you have to be smart to be a top level fighter. There's boxing IQ, and that's somethingh you're born with also.

people are born with boxing IQ?

I can understand people saying champions are born. That you need a special trait to succeed. But boxing IQ surely, just like chess and similar mental exhibitions are developed.

MJ223
12-07-2011, 12:44 PM
IMO born then molded.....

New England
12-08-2011, 01:41 PM
you don't need me to tell you a flawless fighter is going to have it easier than a flawed one.


at the top of the game historically you're talking about lots of guys, not all but lots of guys, who trained as hard as they could. no fighter alive was born a great boxer.

talents separate them


that being said lucian bute gassed out in his first fight with andrade and was good as stopped, if not for some horrid refereeing.
hard work in the gym and the fight can overcome talent.

liberado andrade is a pedestrian compared to bute athletically, but the guy showed up in shape and took the necessary steps in the ring

you can take your pick of very good and great fighters as well that made up for a lack of premium all around talent with hard work and craftsmanship
you often find, these guys to be very durable, which is a talent in its own right, but also a product of the conditioning

KO'er
12-10-2011, 07:17 PM
Suprised no-one has mentioned nourishment as a factor. ie Nature VS Nourishment.

About that drive, and will. I believe a person can get stronger from what they face in life, or what their parents instill in them. With Pacquiao he came up in abject poverty, he says in his book that this is what motivates him, when he sees hungry people.

There seems to be 2 different schools of thought IMO too. On the one hand, you have a fighter like Marciano who is seeing as having not much skill but a ton of heart and will, and the general consensus is that this is what got him where he is. Then you have fighters like Mayweather, who are viewed with not winning solely through will and heart, but through skill and technnique. Has Mayweathers will or heart every been tested? People will say no because his skills and defence have ever stopped him from getting to that stage in a fight.

But on my personal opinion, I have listened to fighters such as Ali and Mayweather, and they said belief got them to where they are. Like with Ali, alright in the 60's he had the speed and moves, he beat all in his way. Then in the 70's the legs were gone but he still beat the best, ie Frazier, Foreman, Ron Lyle, Shavers. Was it belief that made him win in the 60's, when he was at his fastest? In the 70's the speed and moves where grace where gone, what people would say constituted a big part of his talent "package". But I still think the 70' Ali, if put back into the 60's, would have won all those matches. I also heart Mike Tyson saying boxing is 90-95% mental and 5-10% physical. Mike said Cus D'Amato stated that is was Ali's will that made him win, Ali's character.

It is hard to say, nourishment can play a huge part though.

N!GGALAS CAGE
12-10-2011, 07:40 PM
I believe champions are made.

I'll use Mayweather as an example. I really doubt a guy, even one with boxing in his genes would have made it anywhere without hard work, dedication and the right upbringing from his dad and uncles. Sure he may have had the edge just being born into a boxing family, but look at guys like Frazier's sons.

There are many boxers who had upbringings that seemed like boxing would have been the last thing they would have turned to, but made it big anyways. Barrera and Pacquiao come to mind, but there are hundreds of other examples.

GoogleMe
12-11-2011, 12:27 PM
people are born with boxing IQ?

I can understand people saying champions are born. That you need a special trait to succeed. But boxing IQ surely, just like chess and similar mental exhibitions are developed.
You need to have an eye for fighting, being able to calculate, see and guess what your opponent does. Adjusting and keep a sense of perspective / overview.
Some can be taught, but you're born with mot of it.

any craic lad?
12-11-2011, 12:32 PM
I think the you have to be born with a drive and determination to suceed and the rest will follow.Also a decent bit of luck along the way too helps

Harry Balls
12-11-2011, 12:37 PM
You need to have an eye for fighting, being able to calculate, see and guess what your opponent does. Adjusting and keep a sense of perspective / overview.
Some can be taught, but you're born with mot of it.

Thats where our opinions differ. It's like with chess players. They can play several games of chess blindfolded and remember every move and every piece on the board.
Are they born with extraordinary work memory? No. Other things like digits, and placement of various things they often score very slightly above average.

With that said, not everyone will develop the same sense for boxing like the next. There are probably some genetic makeup but even more so is style you fight, experience and training methods.


Tiger Woods is actually a very good example of an athlete who is almost entirely created.
His father was a very mediocre golfer, but a very good teacher. He decided to learn what needed to be done to build an expert golfer, and once Tiger was born the process started.

I'm sure it was the same with Floyd SR and JR. SR knew exactly how Floyd should be molded into what he currently is, and he began the process at a very early age.
The work ethic floyd jr shows is probably in part due to him being abused and forced by his father. This could be the reason their relationship is very strained.

Not everyone will become a champ and certainly not an ATG. But theres alot of various strengths and "talents" that can be used to build an elite fighter combined with great and deliberate practice. Just look at the various great fighters in history. Some traits remain the same among many of them, but it's also a high degree of variety in their strengths, personas and athletic ability.
You can make a lot of genetical composition work.

As for the argument that theres clubfighters who have worked hard their entire life, and haven't gotten anywhere, well, thats probably part true and part exaggeration.
Did they work as hard as floyd? probably not. did they get as good instruction and repetitive work as floyd? certainly not.

It's not just about showing up to practice. You need deliberate practice and the ability to correct the slightest of mistakes. You need to be extremely focused, and not just go through the motions.



Sorry for the wall of text guys. I went off on a rant there, but I'm too stubborn not to press submit. Read it and agree/disagree or just skip it. It's mostly fluff.

I'll try to save the post by posting a video that may motivate some people. I watch it every day and it makes me work harder in life.

<object style="height: 390px; width: 640px"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/7SjbHJ28iec?version=3&feature=player_detailpage"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/7SjbHJ28iec?version=3&feature=player_detailpage" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="360"></object>

#1Assassin
12-11-2011, 12:40 PM
made.

some qualities you are born with, talent especially but most things come along the way.

even such a thing as heart and determination is usually from things you have experienced in life, probably between birth and starting boxing. something happens that creates the will to be a fighter. then ofcourse your skills, boxing IQ etc are made in the gym.

so a little bit of both, but made more than born.

The Surgeon
12-11-2011, 01:39 PM
I can remember watching Mike Tyson sitting talking about the greats as he watched tape of Johnson, Louis ect... "And he said I used to think these guys were just born like that, to be great" (or something to that extent) He then went on to say its hard work and dedication that get the results

GoogleMe
12-13-2011, 12:35 PM
Thats where our opinions differ. It's like with chess players. They can play several games of chess blindfolded and remember every move and every piece on the board.
Are they born with extraordinary work memory? No. Other things like digits, and placement of various things they often score very slightly above average.

With that said, not everyone will develop the same sense for boxing like the next. There are probably some genetic makeup but even more so is style you fight, experience and training methods.


Tiger Woods is actually a very good example of an athlete who is almost entirely created.
His father was a very mediocre golfer, but a very good teacher. He decided to learn what needed to be done to build an expert golfer, and once Tiger was born the process started.

I'm sure it was the same with Floyd SR and JR. SR knew exactly how Floyd should be molded into what he currently is, and he began the process at a very early age.
The work ethic floyd jr shows is probably in part due to him being abused and forced by his father. This could be the reason their relationship is very strained.

Not everyone will become a champ and certainly not an ATG. But theres alot of various strengths and "talents" that can be used to build an elite fighter combined with great and deliberate practice. Just look at the various great fighters in history. Some traits remain the same among many of them, but it's also a high degree of variety in their strengths, personas and athletic ability.
You can make a lot of genetical composition work.

As for the argument that theres clubfighters who have worked hard their entire life, and haven't gotten anywhere, well, thats probably part true and part exaggeration.
Did they work as hard as floyd? probably not. did they get as good instruction and repetitive work as floyd? certainly not.

It's not just about showing up to practice. You need deliberate practice and the ability to correct the slightest of mistakes. You need to be extremely focused, and not just go through the motions.



Sorry for the wall of text guys. I went off on a rant there, but I'm too stubborn not to press submit. Read it and agree/disagree or just skip it. It's mostly fluff.

I'll try to save the post by posting a video that may motivate some people. I watch it every day and it makes me work harder in life.

<object style="height: 390px; width: 640px"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/7SjbHJ28iec?version=3&feature=player_detailpage"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/7SjbHJ28iec?version=3&feature=player_detailpage" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="360"></object>
Have you ever been to the ring?

GoogleMe
12-13-2011, 12:40 PM
You are born with talent. As this subject can't be meassured, we'll never agree. But from my studying, reading and OWN experience from a ton of amateur fights, I base my oppinion.

KO'er
12-15-2011, 03:31 PM
It is obvious certain people have more talent and others, but what about heart and will?

If you are what is termed "extremely talented", just for example, what is it if you get hit with a hard shot and you can't take it? More so if you want to be a top boxer and you face extremely hard punchers.

KO'er
12-15-2011, 03:32 PM
It is obvious certain people have more talent and others, but what about heart and will?

If you are what is termed "extremely talented", just for example, what is it if you get hit with a hard shot and you can't take it? More so if you want to be a top boxer and you face extremely hard punchers.

New England
12-16-2011, 09:12 AM
It is obvious certain people have more talent and others, but what about heart and will?

If you are what is termed "extremely talented", just for example, what is it if you get hit with a hard shot and you can't take it? More so if you want to be a top boxer and you face extremely hard punchers.



the chin is certainly a talent based phenomenon. you cant improve it in the gym. you can get used to getting hit
you can improve your defense. you take better punches as you mature from boy to man until you start to decline (canelo will NOT get knocked around by jose cotto if they fight next. when he was 19 he had trouble taking his punches because he wasnt fully developed.)


some guys were born with the ability to take a better punch


taking off your gloves and going home because you dont like the heat in the kitchen is a different thing entirely, but the ability to remain conscious after sustaining head trauma is something that is largely talent based and brought into the sport.

studentofthegam
12-17-2011, 01:19 PM
I think it takes both. I think whats most important as far as natural ability is more mental than physical. I do believe the right mind set combined with the right training can make a champ. Composure is the characteristic of just about every champion to date. Atleast the ones who stood the test of time. Even an irratic guy like Tyson was able to control his emotions enough to work his gameplan.