View Full Version : prime Jim Jeffries vs prime jack johnson


VERSION1 (V1)
11-10-2005, 04:51 PM
who win will it have the same out come or what

Dempsey 1919
11-10-2005, 06:10 PM
uh,... yes.

KidBlackie
11-10-2005, 07:37 PM
who win will it have the same out come or what
Well, look at their records. Johnson lost his first fight to a lightweight. Well, Johnson was just a teen, so we can excuse him, but he never faced the best primed heavies during the time he held his title. The best part of his career was when he held the colored title, but even then he could still be beat.

Who was the best prime heavy Johnson ever beat? Should be an easy question, but it's surprisingly weak once you study up. At anyrate, Jeffries only had 21 fights when he retired, and he had beat black contenders Bob Armstrong and Hank Griffin in their primes. He also beat HOFer Peter Jackson, but Jackson was reported to have TB and died a few years later. Jeffrey's did beat a prime Sharkey, Corbett, and Fitz, all HOFers and drew with a prime Choynski when Jeff was just a novice.

It would take exceptional modern boxing or KO skills to beat a prime Jeff. Johnson was a good grappler, but an inconsistant boxer and lacked big KO power. He'd give Jeff a tough fight in the beginning, but as the rounds wore on Johnson would fade and be KOed. Johnson relied on his size advantage against smallish middle types. Jeff was a solid 220 lber and as strong or stronger than Johnson, negating Johnson's grappling strength.

If Johnson had just faced a few of the best when he held the title, perhaps he might have proved to be Jeff's equal. Johnson chose not to face the best.

Da Iceman
11-10-2005, 08:40 PM
i think johson wouldve ko'd that racist *****

Dempsey 1919
11-11-2005, 02:09 AM
i think johson wouldve ko'd that racist *****

lol, lol, i definitely agree!

Kid Achilles
11-11-2005, 02:14 AM
Whether or not he was racist, Jim Jeffries was a tough son of a ***** in the ring, a 6'2" 220 lb version of Rocky Marciano. He would fight through all kinds of hell and wear you down. Yeah he was probably the crudest of all the heavyweight champions, but also one of the strongest and most determined.

Maybe Johnson outboxes him, but he'd have to watch out for the left hook at all times. By all acounts Jeff was quick on his feet and quite an athlete. He was a powerful explosive guy at everything he did.

On the street no question in my mind that Jeffries breaks him in half. In a boxing ring I'll give the edge to Johnson, though no way does he knock out a prime Jeffries.

Dempsey 1919
11-11-2005, 02:18 AM
jim jeffries himself said he never could have beaten johnson, even in his prime. johnson had no trouble with jeffries. a prime jeffries would have hit him a couple more times, but johnson still would have ko'd him.

Kid Achilles
11-11-2005, 02:46 AM
jim jeffries himself said he never could have beaten johnson, even in his prime. johnson had no trouble with jeffries. a prime jeffries would have hit him a couple more times, but johnson still would have ko'd him.

It's called having class. Joe Louis said the same thing about Marciano. Do you really think that a prime Louis would have gotten KO'ed by Marciano? I love the Rock but I say no way.

There is no way any of us could accurately predict what would happen, but Jeffries would do a hell of a lot better than the drained (lost 100 pounds in training) weak version that fought Johnson. To say he would have hit Johnson a "couple more times" is a bit of an understatement. There is no comparing the old sloth that fought Johnson and the well conditioned athlete who could run 100 meters in 10 seconds and ran 10-15 miles every day of training camp. No comparison at all.

Dempsey 1919
11-11-2005, 09:45 PM
It's called having class. Joe Louis said the same thing about Marciano. Do you really think that a prime Louis would have gotten KO'ed by Marciano? I love the Rock but I say no way.

There is no way any of us could accurately predict what would happen, but Jeffries would do a hell of a lot better than the drained (lost 100 pounds in training) weak version that fought Johnson. To say he would have hit Johnson a "couple more times" is a bit of an understatement. There is no comparing the old sloth that fought Johnson and the well conditioned athlete who could run 100 meters in 10 seconds and ran 10-15 miles every day of training camp. No comparison at all.

in the 1900s and 1910s, nobody cared if you had CLASS for black fighters. everybody (whites) probably wanted him to say that he would have murdered johnson in his prime, to give themselves a false hope or false idea that their "aryanist" would have handed it to that "*****". but instead, he didn't, he told what he thought was the truth, and if he said it, he should know more than anyone what his capabilities are!

M26
11-12-2005, 09:24 AM
Well, look at their records. Johnson lost his first fight to a lightweight. Well, Johnson was just a teen, so we can excuse him, but he never faced the best primed heavies during the time he held his title. The best part of his career was when he held the colored title, but even then he could still be beat.

Who was the best prime heavy Johnson ever beat? Should be an easy question, but it's surprisingly weak once you study up. At anyrate, Jeffries only had 21 fights when he retired, and he had beat black contenders Bob Armstrong and Hank Griffin in their primes. He also beat HOFer Peter Jackson, but Jackson was reported to have TB and died a few years later. Jeffrey's did beat a prime Sharkey, Corbett, and Fitz, all HOFers and drew with a prime Choynski when Jeff was just a novice.

It would take exceptional modern boxing or KO skills to beat a prime Jeff. Johnson was a good grappler, but an inconsistant boxer and lacked big KO power. He'd give Jeff a tough fight in the beginning, but as the rounds wore on Johnson would fade and be KOed. Johnson relied on his size advantage against smallish middle types. Jeff was a solid 220 lber and as strong or stronger than Johnson, negating Johnson's grappling strength.

If Johnson had just faced a few of the best when he held the title, perhaps he might have proved to be Jeff's equal. Johnson chose not to face the best.

Great post!

I'm having some difficulties deciding who would win this one. I really don't know enough about Jeffries as a fighter. But from what I have been reading, he was awesome in his prime. So was Johnson.

Considering that an over-the-hill Jeffries lasted 15 rounds against a prime Johnson before his trainer stopped the fight, I'm thinking a prime Jeffries finds a way to stop Johnson.

James J. Jeffries by late stoppage.

KidBlackie
11-12-2005, 03:49 PM
[[[I really don't know enough about Jeffries as a fighter. But from what I have been reading, he was awesome in his prime. So was Johnson]]]]]]
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Jeffries had a powerful mauling/brawling style that former welter champ Tommy Ryan refined by developing a low crouching style with the left hand up just for Jeffries. Jeffries may have been the most gifted natural athletes of all the heavy champs though his style is crude by modern standards.

Johnson was more versatile and had more overall skills which keep him competitive in the fight until Jeff grinds him down. It'd be like a bull mastiff bull wearing down a German Shepard for the kill.

Dempsey 1919
11-12-2005, 05:36 PM
[[[I really don't know enough about Jeffries as a fighter. But from what I have been reading, he was awesome in his prime. So was Johnson]]]]]]
=============================

Jeffries had a powerful mauling/brawling style that former welter champ Tommy Ryan refined by developing a low crouching style with the left hand up just for Jeffries. Jeffries may have been the most gifted natural athletes of all the heavy champs though his style is crude by modern standards.

Johnson was more versatile and had more overall skills which keep him competitive in the fight until Jeff grinds him down. It'd be like a bull mastiff bull wearing down a German Shepard for the kill.

no, actually its the other way around. johnson wears down jeffries. johnson in his prime was too fast. also note that in the actual fight he was toying with jeffries. he probably could have ended it within 4 or 5 rounds. so a prime jeffries would last maybe 16 to 18 rounds.

KidBlackie
11-13-2005, 12:12 AM
[[[[also note that in the actual fight he was toying with jeffries. he probably could have ended it within 4 or 5 rounds. ]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
================================

Also note that you're a jockstrap cheerleader without the pompoms kid.

Johnson, as I pointed out, did not show a lot of power. He toyed with fighters in pychological warfare to better protect his soft chin. Only Leon was KOed more of all the heavy champs. Try for an early KO and a guy like Johnson ends up on the matt cold as ice.

You act like the Jeffries fight was legit. No fighter has ever come back outta the blue and with 6 yrs ring rust won back his title. It took Big George 7 yrs and another full career to snatch back his title. Just look at the common opponents kid. Jeffries dominates Johnson. End of story.

j
11-13-2005, 05:41 AM
can't believe this question is even posted.

jim jeffries himself said he wouldn't be able to beat jack on his best day.

Dempsey 1919
11-13-2005, 04:49 PM
finally someone who knows what he's talking about.

salsanchezfan
11-13-2005, 06:40 PM
[[[[also note that in the actual fight he was toying with jeffries. he probably could have ended it within 4 or 5 rounds. ]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
================================

Also note that you're a jockstrap cheerleader without the pompoms kid.

Johnson, as I pointed out, did not show a lot of power. He toyed with fighters in pychological warfare to better protect his soft chin. Only Leon was KOed more of all the heavy champs. Try for an early KO and a guy like Johnson ends up on the matt cold as ice.

You act like the Jeffries fight was legit. No fighter has ever come back outta the blue and with 6 yrs ring rust won back his title. It took Big George 7 yrs and another full career to snatch back his title. Just look at the common opponents kid. Jeffries dominates Johnson. End of story.


...........Well clearly there IS a question about it, Blackie, or it wouldn't have been posted.

I think it's fair to say Jeffries would far a lot better than in what we saw against Johnson in real life, but the truth of the matter is that we don't really know enough about Jeffries, all 21 fights of him, to properly judge how he'd fare against the all-time greats. We DO know that Johnson fared pretty well against the likes of Langford and Jeanette, probably the best opponents he ever faced, and better than what Jeffires faced in his abbreviated career.

Let's face it; Jeffries's claim to fame were KO's of Jackson (very ill) and Fitz (who was 206 years old, and one hell of a lot smaller). To draw assumptions of an outcome with a fight with Johnson based on this kind of resume is patently ridiculous. Johnson presented levels of difficulty and skill Jeffries never had to face in his prime, and Jeffries would have been too inexperienced to deal with a prime Johnson, at ANY time in his career. The guy only had a handful of fights. There's only so much you can learn in so abbreviated a time. Johnson regularly employed tactics Jeffries had probably never heard of. He was strong and powerful, but far too few fights to properly place him in the upper echelon of the great heavies.

Da Iceman
11-13-2005, 08:48 PM
this fight is a good example of tactician vs. brawler

KidBlackie
11-13-2005, 09:58 PM
[[[We DO know that Johnson fared pretty well against the likes of Langford and Jeanette, probably the best opponents he ever faced, and better than what Jeffires faced in his abbreviated career.]]]]]
===========================

Hate to be a party pooper, but you haven't read any of the material posted here. I've studied the subject. You ain't.

Do you know that Jeannette won 108 bouts in his career, but was 0-3 when he first faced Johnson. Do you really think Johnson faced the best Jeannette? Do you know Langford was a lightweight the year before he faced Johnson who was only the 2nd heavy he had ever faced. Sam beat about 100 more heavies in his career than did Johnson and only weighed 156 for their bout. Do you honestly think Johnson faced the best Langford?

Jeff had 22 bouts, yes, a short career by many measures. However, he faced 6 HOF fighters in 9 of those bouts and only lost one. Only Jackson was past prime. You say Fitz was old, but he held the belt. Who in the hell was Jeffries supposed to face? All I know is that Jeff faced and beat the best of his era and retired. Johnson beat a lot of fighters, but not the best heavies of his era when he held the belt and was supposed to be the champ.

Kid Achilles
11-14-2005, 01:00 AM
Kid is right, Johnson definitely drew the color line himself. Don't criticize Dempsey and Jeffries and yet somehow let Papa Jack off the hook.

snap the jab
11-14-2005, 01:07 AM
finally someone who knows what he's talking about.

None of us know what we're talking about when it comes to this question, because none of us have ever seen either of these guys fight. Seeing a few clips on that great PBS documentary doesn't get any of us to the point where we can really evaluate either one of these guys as fighters. Best we can do is compare their records and talk about things like Jeffries' long absence from the ring and his big weight drop in the months before the fight... but even with information like that it's all still just loose speculation.

On the racism issue - yeah, Jeffries was super racist, but as far as I could tell from that PBS show most white people were, back then. Remember that nasty quote from that editorial that the LA Times ran after the Johnson/Jeffries fight, about how black people shouldn't feel good about themselves etc. just because Johnson won? Brutal stuff. I was disgusted, and I'm not even black - it was just so cruel and spiteful...

Dempsey 1919
11-14-2005, 12:53 PM
None of us know what we're talking about when it comes to this question, because none of us have ever seen either of these guys fight. Seeing a few clips on that great PBS documentary doesn't get any of us to the point where we can really evaluate either one of these guys as fighters. Best we can do is compare their records and talk about things like Jeffries' long absence from the ring and his big weight drop in the months before the fight... but even with information like that it's all still just loose speculation.

On the racism issue - yeah, Jeffries was super racist, but as far as I could tell from that PBS show most white people were, back then. Remember that nasty quote from that editorial that the LA Times ran after the Johnson/Jeffries fight, about how black people shouldn't feel good about themselves etc. just because Johnson won? Brutal stuff. I was disgusted, and I'm not even black - it was just so cruel and spiteful...

so your'e saying that just because racism was the norm back then, that is was ok?

Da Iceman
11-14-2005, 10:37 PM
jeffries had a mind he should've figured out racism was wrong

Dempsey 1919
11-15-2005, 06:51 PM
jeffries had a mind he should've figured out racism was wrong

exactly. some people have this weird idea that just because you're recognized as an all-time great athlete in the era up to like 1920 that it was ok to be racist. i mean i hate people like ty cobb's guts for the stuff he used to do to black ball-players and black women.

Dynamite76
11-15-2005, 07:02 PM
Probably Jack, but it would be a tougher battle for him.

Da Iceman
11-15-2005, 07:02 PM
i wouldnt even put jeffries in the top 200

Dempsey 1919
11-15-2005, 07:08 PM
i wouldnt even put jeffries in the top 200

ok, now that's kind of overdoing it. you really cannot name 200 fighters that were better than jeffries.

Kid Achilles
11-15-2005, 10:30 PM
But what do his personal racist beliefs have to do with him being a great fighter or not? They should have no bearing on that at all.

Da Iceman
11-16-2005, 08:29 PM
jeffries wasnt a great fighter he didnt fight anybody but paper champions. he was one himself, and he ran from johnson, like burns and all the other whites

Kid Achilles
11-16-2005, 08:59 PM
Right, so Tom Sharkey, Bob Fitzsimmons, Jim Corbett, and Joe Choynski (who KO'ed Jack Johnson and later mentored him in prison) were nobodies. Granted Jeffries didn't give us much fights during his short career, but by his 6th fight he was in the ring with Choynski.

In his 11th fight he was trading punches with Tom Sharkey, the best slugger of his era.

Consider how many nobodies the average great heavyweight champion fought on his way up and then appreciate the fact that Jeffries cut almost immediately to the cream of the crop of his division and bypassed the tradition we now refer to as "record padding".

Da Iceman
11-16-2005, 09:12 PM
jack johnson wouldve got up from that choynski knockdown but the police stopped it

KidBlackie
11-17-2005, 07:00 AM
We've already established that a fence post knows more about boxing history than you do. Johnson was layed out cold for over 5 min and had to be helped out of the ring. It wasn't the first time he'd been starched either. Only Leon was KOed more.

All this stuff has been well documented.

Dempsey 1919
11-17-2005, 08:08 PM
We've already established that a fence post knows more about boxing history than you do. Johnson was layed out cold for over 5 min and had to be helped out of the ring. It wasn't the first time he'd been starched either. Only Leon was KOed more.

All this stuff has been well documented.

some interesting insight. ;)

Da Iceman
11-17-2005, 08:13 PM
so he got knocked out he still wouldve whooped the **** out of jeffries

Dempsey 1919
11-17-2005, 08:17 PM
so he got knocked out he still wouldve whooped the **** out of jeffries

also a good point.

Rspen46
07-06-2013, 03:15 AM
Jeffries was a superb all-around athlete in his Prime, as mentioned since he went 15 rounds with Johnson when he was a shell of the fighter in his Prime, I must go with Jeffries winning in his prime for that reason, Jeffries & Langford would have been a war also, but Jeffries eventually wins that one also.

Harry Wills, well, Uzcudan beat him, so Jeffries in Prime would also. Jeffries & Dempsey Prime would have been a war, I might Jeffries the edge in that one also.
I would love to have seen Tunney vs. Johnson, I take Tunney.

rightsideup
07-11-2013, 04:09 PM
Jeffries would have been more of challenge to Jack Johnson in his prime as he was a tremendous physical specimen but he was being out boxed by corbit and fitz in their fights. A serious Jack Johnson would out point Jeff if the judging was fair. It would be a close fight though.

ShoulderRoll
07-11-2013, 06:22 PM
Jim Jeffries was a tremendous athlete for a big man but as a boxer he was very crude.

I say Johnson boxes his ears off with the only chance for a Jeffries victory being if he could wear JJ down and get a KO by attrition in the later rounds.

Lucas Machine
07-11-2013, 07:14 PM
I think Jeffries in his prime would wear down Johnson. He might have had difficulty penetrating the defense early, but the power and strength of Jeffries would be too much in the end. I think Jeffries stops the swamp donkey in the later rounds with a brutal KO.

Barn
07-11-2013, 07:55 PM
It's a styles thing, Johnson wins in a slightly more drawn out, competitive fight.

Barn
07-11-2013, 07:56 PM
Jeffries was a superb all-around athlete in his Prime, as mentioned since he went 15 rounds with Johnson when he was a shell of the fighter in his Prime, I must go with Jeffries winning in his prime for that reason, Jeffries & Langford would have been a war also, but Jeffries eventually wins that one also.

Harry Wills, well, Uzcudan beat him, so Jeffries in Prime would also. Jeffries & Dempsey Prime would have been a war, I might Jeffries the edge in that one also.
I would love to have seen Tunney vs. Johnson, I take Tunney.
Uzcudan beat Wills when he was like 5 million years old, that's a terrible argument.

rightsideup
07-11-2013, 08:08 PM
I think Jeffries in his prime would wear down Johnson. He might have had difficulty penetrating the defense early, but the power and strength of Jeffries would be too much in the end. I think Jeffries stops the swamp donkey in the later rounds with a brutal KO.You seem to think it is proper to refer to the great black pioneer's of the sport in derogatory term's. Many people on this site do not approve including myself.

Ray Corso
07-11-2013, 08:20 PM
I like Jack late by decs. I think his defense and offense is better than Jims and their power would even out after a few rounds! My recollection of these men size wise was that both were barely 6' not 6'2" and both fought around 200lbs other than Jim loosing 90 pounds to return and weighing in at 215+ I don't recall either man being anywhere near 220 pounds!

Lucas machine ; your obviously a young fellow but theres no reason to degrade a legendary fighter who was an intrical part of boxing techniques improving!
I'm sure you would never speak that way to Mr. Johnson in person!
He would open your head and spit in it, as others would! Grow up!
Ray.

Ziggy Stardust
07-11-2013, 09:27 PM
You seem to think it is proper to refer to the great black pioneer's of the sport in derogatory term's. Many people on this site do not approve including myself.

It's what the douchebag does. It's an obvious troll account and all he does is come into threads dropping racial slurs towards black fighters.

Poet

louis54
07-12-2013, 12:29 AM
i think johnson out boxes jeffries for 15 rounds. jeffries i think was the all time best for 45 rounds.

Rspen46
07-12-2013, 02:46 AM
Wills was the top contender then & beating everyone else, so that's a great argument, you guys that always want to defend something always claim, he was old, past his prime, outta shape, he didnt train right for the fight, wah, wah wah, just like Tyson as champ beaten cleanly by Douglas, don't cry about it, he got beat fair & square, so don't cry about Wills gettin whupped by Paulie, don't cry about Louis getting pounded by Rocky, I don't cry about Jeffries losing to Johnson, the question was in prime who wins, Jeffries clearly, he lost 110 lbs or more to get in some shape, after a 6 yr. layoff, look what Frazier did to ali after a shorter layoff, then look at the run Ali went on after getting in shape, if 2 guys step in a ring & fight, the winner is the winner, no excuses, it's a win or a loss, no crying in Boxing, no excuses, Holmes lost to Tyson, yes of course he did, I don't cry, but in Prime, Holmes takes him. if Louis beats Rocky, then you say, Louis the great still had it, well maybe he still had it & still couldnt win, maybe Wills still had it & still didnt win, they fought, they must have thought they still had something.
Stop making excuses for the greats when they lose & stop degrading the winners for winning cause the other guy had an excuse, if you want to talk Prime vs. Prime that's another story.

rightsideup
07-12-2013, 03:00 AM
Wills was the top contender then & beating everyone else, so that's a great argument, you guys that always want to defend something always claim, he was old, past his prime, outta shape, he didnt train right for the fight, wah, wah wah, just like Tyson as champ beaten cleanly by Douglas, don't cry about it, he got beat fair & square, so don't cry about Wills gettin whupped by Paulie, don't cry about Louis getting pounded by Rocky, I don't cry about Jeffries losing to Johnson, the question was in prime who wins, Jeffries clearly, he lost 110 lbs or more to get in some shape, after a 6 yr. layoff, look what Frazier did to ali after a shorter layoff, then look at the run Ali went on after getting in shape, if 2 guys step in a ring & fight, the winner is the winner, no excuses, it's a win or a loss, no crying in Boxing, no excuses, Holmes lost to Tyson, yes of course he did, I don't cry, but in Prime, Holmes takes him. if Louis beats Rocky, then you say, Louis the great still had it, well maybe he still had it & still couldnt win, maybe Wills still had it & still didnt win, they fought, they must have thought they still had something.
Stop making excuses for the greats when they lose & stop degrading the winners for winning cause the other guy had an excuse, if you want to talk Prime vs. Prime that's another story.I still like Johnson to win in a very close fight prime vs prime but I concede that Jeffries is much more dangerous and capable and you bring some very valid points to support your viewpoint.

Ray Corso
07-12-2013, 03:35 AM
Repen46; theres no excusses about Louis and Rocky the facts are that Rock was 28 yrs old and Joe was a very olf 38yrs! Joe had retuired but was forced back in the fight game for tax fraud. (highly questionable but the facts non the less) Heavyweights back then who fought often didn't wear neatly and Joe was in bad condition and in later yers Rocky had a notorious bad back that crippled him up and hid training camps were short and trying!!
These are facts about the careers and thats what we're discussing not making excusses at all! Ali vs Holmes wasn't a pleasing bout to watch, Ali feel into the mix with King and **** happened! He trained to make weight and look great, he did 217lbs to bad he didn't train to fight! He was from himself by then but it counts on his record, just not very much to people whpo know boxing history!
Ray

joseph5620
07-12-2013, 01:47 PM
Wills was the top contender then & beating everyone else, so that's a great argument, you guys that always want to defend something always claim, he was old, past his prime, outta shape, he didnt train right for the fight, wah, wah wah, just like Tyson as champ beaten cleanly by Douglas, don't cry about it, he got beat fair & square, so don't cry about Wills gettin whupped by Paulie, don't cry about Louis getting pounded by Rocky, I don't cry about Jeffries losing to Johnson, the question was in prime who wins, Jeffries clearly, he lost 110 lbs or more to get in some shape, after a 6 yr. layoff, look what Frazier did to ali after a shorter layoff, then look at the run Ali went on after getting in shape, if 2 guys step in a ring & fight, the winner is the winner, no excuses, it's a win or a loss, no crying in Boxing, no excuses, Holmes lost to Tyson, yes of course he did, I don't cry, but in Prime, Holmes takes him. if Louis beats Rocky, then you say, Louis the great still had it, well maybe he still had it & still couldnt win, maybe Wills still had it & still didnt win, they fought, they must have thought they still had something.
Stop making excuses for the greats when they lose & stop degrading the winners for winning cause the other guy had an excuse, if you want to talk Prime vs. Prime that's another story.

If a fighter is old and past prime, that's not an excuse. It's a fact and natural occurrence in life. It's also a poor example to use when you are discussing what two fighters would do in their prime.

You're also contradicting yourself. You claim that you never use this as an excuse but you're quick to point it out in regards to Johnson-Jeffries. Obviously Jeffries was past his prime but you can't have it both ways by pointing that out while overlooking it for the other fighters you mentioned.