Don't get me wrong, I love Ali to bits - he's my favourite boxer of all tahms. Of all tahms.

But there's something about the Liston fights that looks so... staged.


Liston's wife recently went on record as saying Sonny wasn't going to get unnecessarily hurt during the rematch, and implied he stayed down - though this doesn't rule out the punch putting him there was genuine. Then there's the rumours that Sonny claimed he was going to be killed by Ali's religious organisation if he didn't take a "fall" in the first. So what do we think?

No, no they weren't. Liston simply lacked heart.

I cant see the second fight not being rigged.

Many people are scared ****less of insane folks. Clay/Ali knew this to be true of Sonny and exploited it.
The "phantom punch" was a blow that Sonny could have gotten up from but he chose not to. He was deathly afraid of this "crazy man" standing over him.

The crap about a "mob" fix is just that..crap. The odds weren't long enough for organized crime to take an interest. The profit margin just wasn't there.

The idea that Liston was scared was also garbage. Liston simply couldn't get on the inside and do damage. For a fight that occurred in the 60's, it has great video quality.

Many people are scared ****less of insane folks. Clay/Ali knew this to be true of Sonny and exploited it.
The "phantom punch" was a blow that Sonny could have gotten up from but he chose not to. He was deathly afraid of this "crazy man" standing over him.

The crap about a "mob" fix is just that..crap. The odds weren't long enough for organized crime to take an interest. The profit margin just wasn't there.

Thats exactley what the mob wants you to think, that there is no interest. Also why does it have to be the mob? Maybee it was the promoters

Hold on Asian S. !!
In one breath you say Liston lacked heart and in the next that he wasn't scared. Which is it??
And how in the hell would a 17 or 18 year old kid know that much about it anyway??

Thats exactley what the mob wants you to think, that there is no interest. Also why does it have to be the mob? Maybee it was the promoters
Maybe it was a guy up on the grassy knoll and maybe the moon landing was shot in Arizona!! :rolleyes:

Hold on Asian S. !!
In one breath you say Liston lacked heart and in the next that he wasn't scared. Which is it??
And how in the hell would a 17 or 18 year old kid know that much about it anyway??
You see, this is something that I find very amusing. When old fogies like you question my knowledge because of my youth. I have amassed in my 17 years so much boxing knowledge, it would make Emanuel Steward look incompetent. I have a fight collection nearing 1,000 fights, and own just about every boxing documentary ever made. I also have a number of boxing books and other publications. I know a whole lot about boxing. Liston was the aggressor and never stopped coming forward through out the fight, a man afraid would stay on the outside and run away from Ali. Liston lacked heart because he quit in the corner with a "broken shoulder." He lacked the mentality of a champion.

Son, you are so full of **** your eyes are brown.

Son, you are so full of **** your eyes are brown.
OK old man, you know more about boxing than I do?

I know more about everything under the sun than you do, Nancy!

I know more about everything under the sun than you do, Nancy!
Ask me something.

You are too boring to engage in debate Junior. ANYBODY can be asked things they can't answer.

What was the opening fight on the Azumah Nelson-Jesse James Leija IV fight card?

You are too boring to engage in debate Junior. ANMYBODY can be asked things they can't answer.
Anybody, but you should know more than me I thought. Look, if you can't do it, don't bother.

At 17, you're so dopey you don't even know you're dopey yet! :D

Liston had heart. Watch his two fights against monster puncher Cleveland Williams. Liston gets nailed flush and keeps coming. You don't not have heart and get through that. And in the Machen fight, Liston was in against a very tricky customer (Machen was a stronger Chris Byrd with a harder punch) and he never gave up or diverged from his gameplan. I feel the first fight was legit, and that Liston really did tear his rotator cuff (the same injury Vitali got against Byrd). Sometime in the 5th round he hurt it throwing a wild punch and you can see that Sonny hardly uses his left at all throughout the rest of the fight. He didn't quit b/c he was losing, b/c on most scorecards after the 6th the fight was even (as he won the 2nd, 4th, and 5th rounds). He quit the same reason Klitschko quit.

The 2nd fight is an obvious dive. Whether it was mob-backed or Liston not wanting to get assasinated by Nation of Islam people . . . it really doesn't matter. Ali never had another 1st round KO in his career and his only one certainly wouldn't be against Sonny Liston . . .

itching sensation needs to grow up.

Oh man....."Itching Sensation"!! :D

Karma to you as soon as I'm able dude!

Liston couldnt beat Ali anywayz

Dont think the fights were fixed but i think Liston could have got up from the canvas in the second fight if he wanted to.

This rumor is a lot of bull!!!!

Kadyo who's the most popular muslim in the world?

Can anybody make a GIF picture of the "Phatnom punch" or upload the fight?

it doesnt matter if anything was fixed or not ,its history and ali and liston were both great fighters and maybe liston was scared, ali was insane

Boxerdog and Ryder11 are both right. Liston stayed down because: 1. he thought Ali was insane 2. he was also spooked by the Muslim faction. In regards to his itchiness, I quote the master: " Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now. ~ Bob Dylan :cool:

Oh, Yeah! PS: Ryder11 was right on when he said they were both great boxers, that's a for sure on that one. :cool:

Boxerdog and Ryder11 are both right. Liston stayed down because: 1. he thought Ali was insane 2. he was also spooked by the Muslim faction. In regards to his itchiness, I quote the master: " Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now. ~ Bob Dylan :cool:
"His Itchiness", huh?
I like that too!
Good karma to you as well!!

it doesnt matter if anything was fixed or notRyder, how come you've got so much bad karma on just SIX posts? Is it because of posts like that? I'll top you up.

The second one could very well have been rigged but not the 1st. Ali's skills have been proven over the test of time. He needed no help but he wouldn't be the 1st fighter to have benefited from outside intimidation.

Ryder, how come you've got so much bad karma on just SIX posts? Is it because of posts like that? I'll top you up.
I'm about to put him well into the plus collumn.

Kadyo who's the most popular muslim in the world?


Osama Bin Laden?? :eek: nah??

So who Kadyo??

If not Ali (even now), then who indeed?

The first fight wasn't rigged. Liston was taking a beating and it was only going to get worse, so he quit. I'm not sure what the hell was going on in the rematch? The punch looked light to me but the photo of Ali standing over Liston is one of the best boxing photos ever.

It really doesn't matter, Ali with stood the test of time.

Of course the second fight was rigged, watch it.

"His Itchiness", huh?
I like that too!
Good karma to you as well!!
:D Thank You Boxerdog :D Now I've got the glow :cool:

Rigged? No.

Ali Booom baa Yea

Whenever a guy had been beaten who people thought he couldn´t be beaten, there have been rumours of the fights being fixed rolleyes:. I like Liston, but in their first fight, I can see nothing extraordinary, and in the second..., well, even big men can fall when they are hit right on the temple.

The first fight definatly wasn't fixed, that was poetry in motion without me meaning to sound cheesy. Ali fought a unbelievable fight there. The second fight was very dubious in my opinion but it was a very quick punch and they always say that it's the punch you don't see that knocks you out.

Asiansensation to say Sonny Liston lacked heart is stupid. A bad beating made him quit the first Ali fight and a quick punch took him out in the second.

Saying he lacked heart is also an insult to Muhammed Ali

Asiansensation to say Sonny Liston lacked heart is stupid. A bad beating made him quit the first Ali fight and a quick punch took him out in the second.



Asian Sensation could never say anything STUPID!
He's the smartest 17 year old fighting flip his alter ego has ever known! :D

Saying he lacked heart is also an insult to Muhammed Ali
I know Liston had heart, he just was frustrated by Ali. Like when you're at work and you get pissed and complain to your boss. Your boss doesn't say "look here..you have no heart!" It's called stress and Liston was so stressed from Ali that he quit. The 2nd fight? I think it may have been fixed, but I doubt it. All we can view that phantom punch from is like 1 angle, so I guess it will never really be proven.

Liston would never lie down for Ali he had to much pride. In the second fight he was clearly hit by a punch altough at first glance it looks like a shadow punch. Liston could maybe get up but he was scared to death.

Asian Sensation could never say anything STUPID!
He's the smartest 17 year old fighting flip his alter ego has ever known! :D
Exactly! Even my other alter ego Red Rum says the same thing, right Red?

Asiansensation to say Sonny Liston lacked heart is stupid. A bad beating made him quit the first Ali fight and a quick punch took him out in the second.
Say what you want of me, I never quit in a fight and never will. How a fighter can be conscious and quit in the ring is beyond me.

Say what you want of me, I never quit in a fight and never will. How a fighter can be conscious and quit in the ring is beyond me.

He got busted up bad in the fight and mentally beaten before the fight. Liston was a very tough man and he wouldn't quit like that unless he was beaten which he was. Ali beating him while he was blinded will have killed his confidence too.

He got busted up bad in the fight and mentally beaten before the fight. Liston was a very tough man and he wouldn't quit like that unless he was beaten which he was. Ali beating him while he was blinded will have killed his confidence too.
A new thread maybe?

A new thread maybe?

What? Don't you think he was blinded?

What? Don't you think he was blinded?
I think Liston used an astringent substance on his glove to blind Ali so he could get some free shots. When that didn't work, he simply said "**** this, I'm rich" and quit.

I am a big Ali fan, but I just read "the devil and sonny liston" by nick tosches and the author clearly backs up the fix/quit hypotheses for both fights through interviews.

but...

he uses extremely short quotes from those interviews

he clearly dislikes ali

I don't know, go figure the 2nd fight definitely has something wrong going on though

Say what you want of me, I never quit in a fight and never will. How a fighter can be conscious and quit in the ring is beyond me.

HA! HA! HA! HA! You wussy!!



You have never FOUGHT anybody that wasn't wearing a dress and you never will. Do you think people are stupid and just buy your bull sh*t??
What a pitiful little boy! :D

HA! HA! HA! HA! You wussy!!



You have never FOUGHT anybody that wasn't wearing a dress and you never will. Do you think people are stupid and just buy your bull sh*t??
What a pitiful little boy! :D
Well, I was a Diamond Gloves Champ at 16 in NJ. I think you need to stop stalking me and get a life. You really are getting annoying.

And I'm the mayor of Newark! :rolleyes: :D

Here Boxerdog go and just take early retirement and **** of to and old peoples home you old ****. You've got some cheek saying asian_sensation talks a lot of bull****.. you invented it ya old cunt!!

And I'm the mayor of Newark! :rolleyes: :D
Why are you obsessed with me?

GEE...19 posts!
This couldn't be another alias to provide support, could it?? :D

Keep telling yourself that Grandad!!

GEE...19 posts!
This couldn't be another alias to provide support, could it?? :D
If it was, then Rick would be able to track down the IP address and say it was me. Wouldn't he? Regardless, get a life. You're probably one of them child molesters who search through forums to find young kids to molest. Get a life idiot.

lol Why don't you both just chill, you are both cool oldskool posters. Save this **** for the people who deserve it. :D

Easy bloods... I'm about to post on this in the BS Lounge.

Incidentally, it's not been remarked on yet that Liston GOT UP in the second match and resumed fighting...

Easy bloods... I'm about to post on this in the BS Lounge.

Incidentally, it's not been remarked on yet that Liston GOT UP in the second match and resumed fighting...
You call covering up and taking shots fighting?

Many people are scared ****less of insane folks. Clay/Ali knew this to be true of Sonny and exploited it.
The "phantom punch" was a blow that Sonny could have gotten up from but he chose not to. He was deathly afraid of this "crazy man" standing over him.

The crap about a "mob" fix is just that..crap. The odds weren't long enough for organized crime to take an interest. The profit margin just wasn't there.

I know...thats what I said after I watched the second between Ali and Liston...the only reason why Liston didnt get up from that one punch was because he was just afraid of him..

o yea, I dont think any match was staged...those are just some crazy rumors that Ali haters started, thats all.

I know...thats what I said after I watched the second between Ali and Liston...the only reason why Liston didnt get up from that one punch was because he was just afraid of him..

o yea, I dont think any match was staged...those are just some crazy rumors that Ali haters started, thats all.
y do ppl post in old threads?

y do ppl post in old threads?

I just found a thread with Ali's name in it and i wanted to check it out....anything with Ali's name in it intrests me.

o yea, I dont think any match was staged...those are just some crazy rumors that Ali haters started, thats all.
Considering I'm asking this question from my own observations and I'm an Ali lover I think that's rather a glib generalisation.

Of course the second fight was rigged, watch it.
Thats what I am saying. I dont see how anyone could see it any different. Liston rolled around waiting to get counted out and when Walcott stopped his count to send Ali to a neutral corner Liston got up like he thought he was counted out. Then when Ali rushed him he did nothing.

the first fight looked genuine to me. liston knew he couldnt beat ali.
As for the second fight, ive read that liston said that he didnt want to get involved with the whole ali/black panthers deal. This was years after the fight. This may have just been an excuse, but in reality, it doesnt matter if the second fight was rigged, because liston knew he couldnt beat ali, and if liston had fought it straight, he would have lost anyways. In the picture in my avatar, ali is yelling at liston, get up, fool! get up! nobody will believe it! This is why i dont think the fight was fixed, it was just liston being afraid. It was only fixed on listons side, ali had nothing to do with it

the first fight looked genuine to me. liston knew he couldnt beat ali.
As for the second fight, ive read that liston said that he didnt want to get involved with the whole ali/black panthers deal. This was years after the fight. This may have just been an excuse, but in reality, it doesnt matter if the second fight was rigged, because liston knew he couldnt beat ali, and if liston had fought it straight, he would have lost anyways. In the picture in my avatar, ali is yelling at liston, get up, fool! get up! nobody will believe it! This is why i dont think the fight was fixed, it was just liston being afraid. It was only fixed on listons side, ali had nothing to do with it

I know...I just watched the 2nd fight between them again and after the fight ended they were interviewing Ali and they asked him, What were you saying to liston after you kncked him down? Then he said...i was telling him to get up because nobody would believe this at all...which is true, because all you guys think it is staged now. It might be staged, but I dont think so, I think it was just because sonny was just scared of him.

agreed, not fixed, but sonny was going down and he knew it

You see, this is something that I find very amusing. When old fogies like you question my knowledge because of my youth. I have amassed in my 17 years so much boxing knowledge, it would make Emanuel Steward look incompetent. I have a fight collection nearing 1,000 fights, and own just about every boxing documentary ever made. I also have a number of boxing books and other publications. I know a whole lot about boxing. Liston was the aggressor and never stopped coming forward through out the fight, a man afraid would stay on the outside and run away from Ali. Liston lacked heart because he quit in the corner with a "broken shoulder." He lacked the mentality of a champion.

Not only are you full of ****, you're also a homo. Look at your gay pic and your homosexual ICP image. You are full blown gay, my friend. :D

the first fight looked genuine to me. liston knew he couldnt beat ali.
As for the second fight, ive read that liston said that he didnt want to get involved with the whole ali/black panthers deal. This was years after the fight. This may have just been an excuse, but in reality, it doesnt matter if the second fight was rigged, because liston knew he couldnt beat ali, and if liston had fought it straight, he would have lost anyways. In the picture in my avatar, ali is yelling at liston, get up, fool! get up! nobody will believe it! This is why i dont think the fight was fixed, it was just liston being afraid. It was only fixed on listons side, ali had nothing to do with it

Right Ali had nothing to do with it but it still was fixed because Liston took a dive. If Liston did not get in shape and was doing it for a pay check and had no heart for the fight then Liston would have went to his buddies in the mob and made even more telling them it will be an early KO.

hahaha true, but im not sure sonny is the brightest bulb in the box

the important thing here is that even though sonny took a dive, had he not, he would have gotten the **** kicked out of him

Ali was the superior fighter then, which was exemplified by his longevity in the heavyweight division. Ali wasn't even at his best when he dominated a talent rich heavyweight division. He was and still is the greatest. No doubt.