View Full Version : My alltime heavyweight top 25. Whats yours?


JAB5239
11-18-2011, 12:20 AM
I expect my list to be picked apart and argued over. That's cool, but post you own as well. Nothing is definitive and things are always changing the more we learn. I don't mind taking a little heat for my list. Do you? :boxing:

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Jack Johnson
4. Larry Holmes
5. Sonny Liston
6. Lennox Lewis
7. George Foreman
8. Mike Tyson
9. Evander Holyfield
10. Rocky Marciano

11. Joe Frazier
12. Harry Wills
13. Jack Dempsey
14. Jim Jeffries
15. Ezzard Charles
17. Sam Langford
18. Wladimir Klitschko
19. Joe Walcott
20. Max Schmeling

21. Ken Norton
22. Riddick Bowe
23. Max Baer
24. Jim Corbett
25. Gene Tunney

Steak
11-18-2011, 01:19 AM
I couldnt make a top 25 list if I tried, its so complicated and I would be switching it around constantly.


Of course I have to nitpick, and I would put Ali above Louis based on his better opposition, and would not have Johnson nearly as high as he is...If you have Johnson as high as #3, then Harry Wills deserves to be at least in the top 10, since their best wins are pretty much the same guys.

I dont know a HUGE amount about Jeffries, but I wouldnt put him as high as he is, he didnt have the quality of wins other guys have and did not have longevity either.

also I would never omit Patterson from the top 25 all time.

nitpicking is so much fun.

JAB5239
11-18-2011, 01:40 AM
I couldnt make a top 25 list if I tried, its so complicated and I would be switching it around constantly.


Of course I have to nitpick, and I would put Ali above Louis based on his better opposition, and would not have Johnson nearly as high as he is...If you have Johnson as high as #3, then Harry Wills deserves to be at least in the top 10, since their best wins are pretty much the same guys.

I dont know a HUGE amount about Jeffries, but I wouldnt put him as high as he is, he didnt have the quality of wins other guys have and did not have longevity either.

also I would never omit Patterson from the top 25 all time.

nitpicking is so much fun.

You son of a.....:lol1:

I got no problem with anyone rating Ali over Louis. Johnson I should actually have at #4 with Holmes ahead of him. I like Wills and think he's had a better career than most give him credit for, but he doesn't belong in the top 10.

Jeffries has an incredible resume considering the amoount of fights he has. Its his longevity that pushes him down the ladder.

I love Patterson. Love how he carried himself and love how he fought. But I never thought he was a GREAT heavyweight, though Im sure I could justify a way to get him on the top 20 or 25. It's just that D'Amato's ducking of top fighters like Liston, Williams, Machen and one or two others has never sat well with me. I think both Williams and Liston would have crushed him in 1958 and it would have dinged up his resume pretty good in my opinion. Keep nit picking brother, Im game. :fing02:

Steak
11-18-2011, 01:59 AM
You son of a.....:lol1:

I got no problem with anyone rating Ali over Louis. Johnson I should actually have at #4 with Holmes ahead of him. I like Wills and think he's had a better career than most give him credit for, but he doesn't belong in the top 10.

Jeffries has an incredible resume considering the amoount of fights he has. Its his longevity that pushes him down the ladder.

I love Patterson. Love how he carried himself and love how he fought. But I never thought he was a GREAT heavyweight, though Im sure I could justify a way to get him on the top 20 or 25. It's just that D'Amato's ducking of top fighters like Liston, Williams, Machen and one or two others has never sat well with me. I think both Williams and Liston would have crushed him in 1958 and it would have dinged up his resume pretty good in my opinion. Keep nit picking brother, Im game. :fing02:Wills beat the same level of opposition that Johnson did, and even did it multiple times. He beat a true HW version of Langford, as opposed to the 150lb one Johnson fought. Johnson beat a teenage version of McVea, while Wills beat a much more seasoned McVea. I have no problem saying that Johnson beat the better Jeannette, even though when Johnson beat him he only had a few fights and a pretty lackluster record.

also Wills has underrated wins such Fred Fulton, Firpo and Weinhart. I consider those wins just about as good as anything Johnson did during his title reign, since he refused to fight the best opponents out there.

I think Johnson is not far removed from Wills in terms of greatness, if at all. I wouldnt put Johnson that high up because I dont think his opposition was all that, but even if I did, theres no way Id make him so far remove from Wills.

Even if Patterson did duck those opponents, he still has one of the best heavyweight resumes out there. Jacksonx2, Moore, Harris, London, Johanssonx2, Machen, Chuvalo, draw with Quarry, Bonavena...all good wins at the time. I just couldnt leave him out of the top 25.

TBear
11-18-2011, 03:38 AM
Good ranking Jab. I would change a few around but I can understand why you had each of the fighters where they were. Ranking all time lists is so objectionable, 25 fans with good boxing knowledge could turn in 25 different top 25 rankings. The main similarity I believe in twenty five different rankings of the heavyweight division would be the top two.

Miburo
11-18-2011, 04:17 AM
I would rank Foreman higher and Tyson lower. Can't really see placing Tyson over Holyfield. Foreman I believe is top five minimum, maybe even top three.

La_Vibora
11-18-2011, 04:30 AM
There's no way in hell that Lennox Lewis is rated higher than George Foreman. Big George beat prime fighters while Lennox did not. George also goes above Sonny Liston as well imo as much as I love Sonny. Marciano is also rated far too low in my opinion. I have to think that Gene Tunney shoukd be a tad higher as well. Also, Wladimir Klitschko's lack of a career defining fight has me lost on where to place him, I feel more comfortable placing Vitali on this list than him. With that said,great job with the list, I couldn't bring myself to put together a list outside of the top 5, so I admire you for making up a top 25 list.

Sugarj
11-18-2011, 08:48 AM
I expect my list to be picked apart and argued over. That's cool, but post you own as well. Nothing is definitive and things are always changing the more we learn. I don't mind taking a little heat for my list. Do you? :boxing:

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Jack Johnson
4. Larry Holmes
5. Sonny Liston
6. Lennox Lewis
7. George Foreman
8. Mike Tyson
9. Evander Holyfield
10. Rocky Marciano

11. Joe Frazier
12. Harry Wills
13. Jack Dempsey
14. Jim Jeffries
15. Ezzard Charles
17. Sam Langford
18. Wladimir Klitschko
19. Joe Walcott
20. Max Schmeling

21. Ken Norton
22. Riddick Bowe
23. Max Baer
24. Jim Corbett
25. Gene Tunney



My struggle is whether to rate based on legacy/legend and resume or based on how the head to head matchup would go if we are talking prime versions of the fighters.

For example in your list I'd favour Tunney over Corbett in terms of head to head/prime for prime.......Riddick Bowe would probably be top ten head to head/prime for prime.

And based on Legend/resume/legacy Floyd Patterson deserves to be ranked above Max Schmelling.

I think I'd have to do two lists, 1) head to head and 2) legacy.

But the head to head list causes real problems because.....for example I might pick Frazier over Holmes, but also I might pick Holmes over Foreman....however it would be wrong to therefore have Frazier above Foreman when we know what actually happened when they met.

RubenSonny
11-18-2011, 09:06 AM
LL above Holyfield?

Ziggy Stardust
11-18-2011, 09:57 AM
The ATGs

01. Muhammad Ali
02. Joe Louis
03. Jack Johnson
04. Jack Dempsey
05. Larry Holmes
06. Sonny Liston
07. Evander Holyfield
08. George Foreman
09. Rocky Marciano
10. Mike Tyson
11. Joe Frazier
12. Harry Wills


The Near-Greats

13. Lennox Lewis
14. Jersey Joe Walcott
15. James Jeffries
16. Peter Jackson
17. Joe Jeannette
18. Riddick Bowe
19. Vitali Klitschko
20. James Corbett
21. Floyd Patterson
22. Max Schmeling
23. George Godfrey
24. Ken Norton
25. Wlad Klitschko
26. Sam McVey

Sugarj
11-18-2011, 10:16 AM
The ATGs

01. Muhammad Ali
02. Joe Louis
03. Jack Johnson
04. Jack Dempsey
05. Larry Holmes
06. Sonny Liston
07. Evander Holyfield
08. George Foreman
09. Rocky Marciano
10. Mike Tyson
11. Joe Frazier
12. Harry Wills


The Near-Greats

13. Lennox Lewis
14. Jersey Joe Walcott
15. James Jeffries
16. Peter Jackson
17. Joe Jeannette
18. Riddick Bowe
19. Vitali Klitschko
20. James Corbett
21. Floyd Patterson
22. Max Schmeling
23. George Godfrey
24. Ken Norton
25. Wlad Klitschko
26. Sam McVey


No Ezzard Charles? Surely he belongs somewhere close to Jersey Joe Walcott.

Gene Tunney?

Sugarj
11-18-2011, 11:07 AM
I'm not at all happy with this. Its based a little on legacy, a little on sentiment and a little on how impressed I am with their abilities on video. I've probably missed some legends accidentally!!!!

I've declined to show fighters I haven't actually watched fight much (if at all!)in their prime.............so very justifiable entries like Jeffries, Corbett, Wills, Langford or Sullivan remain absent.

1) Ali
2) Louis
3) Holmes
4) Foreman
5) Holyfield
6) Tyson
7) Lewis
8) Johnson
9) Liston
10) Marciano
11) Dempsey
12) Frazier
13) Bowe
14) Norton
15) Tunney
16) Walcott
17) Patterson
18) Charles
19) V Klitschko
20) W Klitschko
21) Young
22) Baer
23) Lyle
24) Schmelling
25) M Spinks



I expect to edit this post alot!

The very controversial entries are Young, Lyle and M. Spinks.....all of whom impressed me in certain contests or in losing efforts.

There is so much to pick at, Holyfield looks a bit high, but his heavyweight resume is so much better than Liston, Johnson or Marciano. Its tight between him, Lewis and Tyson.

Also Tunney's brief heavyweight reign shouldn't really have him in at 15, sentiment rules here.....plus he looked so damned good against an old Dempsey.

Norton looks too high too. It seems almost blasphemous to have him ahead of artists such as Walcott, Charles and Patterson. But the Ali, Young and Holmes fights really impressed me.

Both the Klitschkos belong higher, possibly much higher.....I feel I might have made a weak cop out here!!!

Lets just say a prime head to head list would look much different.

A list based solely on resume would also look much different.

Ziggy Stardust
11-18-2011, 11:35 AM
No Ezzard Charles? Surely he belongs somewhere close to Jersey Joe Walcott.

Gene Tunney?

I only rank fighters in one weight class and I have both Charles and Tunney ranked at Light-Heavy.....Charles because he was at his best in that weight class and Tunney because he spent 99% of his career there.

Poet

RubenSonny
11-18-2011, 12:08 PM
The ATGs

01. Muhammad Ali
02. Joe Louis
03. Jack Johnson
04. Jack Dempsey
05. Larry Holmes
06. Sonny Liston
07. Evander Holyfield
08. George Foreman
09. Rocky Marciano
10. Mike Tyson
11. Joe Frazier
12. Harry Wills


The Near-Greats

13. Lennox Lewis
14. Jersey Joe Walcott
15. James Jeffries
16. Peter Jackson
17. Joe Jeannette
18. Riddick Bowe
19. Vitali Klitschko
20. James Corbett
21. Floyd Patterson
22. Max Schmeling
23. George Godfrey
24. Ken Norton
25. Wlad Klitschko
26. Sam McVey

I love this list.

Sugarj
11-18-2011, 12:29 PM
I only rank fighters in one weight class and I have both Charles and Tunney ranked at Light-Heavy.....Charles because he was at his best in that weight class and Tunney because he spent 99% of his career there.

Poet


I'm with you bud.

JAB5239
11-18-2011, 02:48 PM
The ATGs

01. Muhammad Ali
02. Joe Louis
03. Jack Johnson
04. Jack Dempsey
05. Larry Holmes
06. Sonny Liston
07. Evander Holyfield
08. George Foreman
09. Rocky Marciano
10. Mike Tyson
11. Joe Frazier
12. Harry Wills


The Near-Greats

13. Lennox Lewis
14. Jersey Joe Walcott
15. James Jeffries
16. Peter Jackson
17. Joe Jeannette
18. Riddick Bowe
19. Vitali Klitschko
20. James Corbett
21. Floyd Patterson
22. Max Schmeling
23. George Godfrey
24. Ken Norton
25. Wlad Klitschko
26. Sam McVey

Dempsey doesn't belong in the top 10 let alone top 5 in my opinion.

JAB5239
11-18-2011, 02:49 PM
Good list by both Sugarj and Poet! Keep em coming guys!

Steak
11-18-2011, 03:10 PM
The ridiculously overrated American HW champs from the past weren't even real world champs, they were all frauds because they never competed against the superior Soviets/Eastern Europeans in the pros.

All of the best American heavyweights have been destroyed by the Klitschkos and other Eastern Europeans.

The same thing is happening in many other weight classes too.


Teenage George Foreman taking on the best HW Soviet boxer in the world, Ionas Chepulis.
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/sCEtaaQ9ZPY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Teenage Joe Frazier taking on the best HW Soviet boxer in the world, Vadim Yemelyanov
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/btRNfmwa0G0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Joeyzagz
11-18-2011, 04:12 PM
1. Joe Louis ( I can live with this)
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Jack Johnson
4. Larry Holmes
5. Sonny Liston
6. Lennox Lewis Lennox is way too low, He should be #3 at absolute worst. Hes the only guy who fought against Elite Americans as well as elite Eastern Blocers and beat them all. Last undisputed, true lineal champion.

7. George Foreman
8. Mike Tyson
9. Evander Holyfield
10. Rocky Marciano

11. Joe Frazier
12. Harry Wills
13. Jack Dempsey
14. Jim Jeffries
15. Ezzard Charles
17. Sam Langford
18. Wladimir Klitschko
19. Joe Walcott
20. Max Schmeling

21. Ken Norton
22. Riddick Bowe
23. Max Baer
24. Jim Corbett
25. Gene Tunney


Ive posted my list many times. The Heavyweight champ should be the baddest man on the planet. A guy who could knock out anything with two legs regardless of discipline. Ali is not that type a guy, hes good but I just cant have a feather fister as the best Heavyweight ever. This is why I approve of you giving Joe Louis the nod, a man of power.

Heres mine:

1. Lennox Lewis
2. Max Schmelling
3. Joe Louis
4. Bob Fitzsimmons
5. George Foreman
6. John L Sullivan
7. Max Baer
8. Sonny Liston
9. Mike Tyson
10. Vitali Klitschko
11. Muhammad Ali
12. Harry Wills
13. Gene Tunney
14. Rocky Marciano
15. Jack Dempsey
16. Riddick Bowe
17. Joe Frazier
18. Larry Holmes
19. Jack Johnson
20. Samuel Langford
21. Gentleman Jim Corbett
22. Evander Holyfield
23. Jim Jeffries
24. Oliver Mccall
25. Earnie Shavers

Greatest1942
11-20-2011, 02:59 PM
Good list Jab and Poet and Sugraj...I agree with JAB's #1 choice...don't with Poet and Sugraj, but all lists are very good. Because I believe it should be Ali or Louis at #1...rest of the picks are nice.

Though I will love to hear why Jab has Mike Tyson in top 10 ignoring Frazier and why Poet does have Tyson at top 10 also and not Lewis.

And I do think Liston should be #5 to 10..not top 5. So yea, its a bid of a grudge, not much.

But having done all this nitpicking, I declare , whatever you guys say, I wont go round to make a top 10 list forget top 25, because I don't rank anyone anymore.

But couldn't resist the nitpicking.

SBleeder
11-20-2011, 03:59 PM
Heres mine:

1. Lennox Lewis
2. Max Schmelling
3. Joe Louis
4. Bob Fitzsimmons
5. George Foreman
6. John L Sullivan
7. Max Baer
8. Sonny Liston
9. Mike Tyson
10. Vitali Klitschko
11. Muhammad Ali
12. Harry Wills
13. Gene Tunney
14. Rocky Marciano
15. Jack Dempsey
16. Riddick Bowe
17. Joe Frazier
18. Larry Holmes
19. Jack Johnson
20. Samuel Langford
21. Gentleman Jim Corbett
22. Evander Holyfield
23. Jim Jeffries
24. Oliver Mccall
25. Earnie Shavers

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p118/kdog3030/Laughing_Cat.jpg

SBleeder
11-20-2011, 04:12 PM
I expect my list to be picked apart and argued over. That's cool, but post you own as well. Nothing is definitive and things are always changing the more we learn. I don't mind taking a little heat for my list. Do you? :boxing:

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Jack Johnson
4. Larry Holmes
5. Sonny Liston
6. Lennox Lewis
7. George Foreman
8. Mike Tyson
9. Evander Holyfield
10. Rocky Marciano

11. Joe Frazier
12. Harry Wills
13. Jack Dempsey
14. Jim Jeffries
15. Ezzard Charles
17. Sam Langford
18. Wladimir Klitschko
19. Joe Walcott
20. Max Schmeling

21. Ken Norton
22. Riddick Bowe
23. Max Baer
24. Jim Corbett
25. Gene Tunney

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Holmes
4. Foreman
5. Johnson
6. Marciano
7. Dempsey
8. Liston
9. Frazier
10. Lewis
11. Holyfield
12. Tyson
13. Wills
14. Patterson
15. Jeffries
16. Vitali Klitschko
17. Jeanette
18. Baer
19. Walcott
20. McVey (probably should be higher if there were more footage)
21. Schmelling
22. Bivins (My opinion and I'm sticking to it)
23. Charles
24. Langford
25. Bowe

Michael Spinks would be next.

IronDanHamza
11-20-2011, 04:23 PM
1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Holmes
4. Foreman
5. Johnson
6. Marciano
7. Dempsey
8. Liston
9. Frazier
10. Lewis
11. Holyfield
12. Tyson
13. Wills
14. Patterson
15. Jeffries
16. Vitali Klitschko
17. Jeanette
18. Baer
19. Walcott
20. McVey (probably should be higher if there were more footage)
21. Schmelling
22. Bivins (My opinion and I'm sticking to it)
23. Charles
24. Langford
25. Bowe

Michael Spinks would be next.

How much further down would Harold Johnson be in your list?

He beat 2 of your Top 25.

SBleeder
11-20-2011, 07:06 PM
How much further down would Harold Johnson be in your list?

He beat 2 of your Top 25.

Doesn't rank at HW.

Bivins, Langford, Charles... all have more far more substantial heavyweight resumes than Johnson.

GJC
11-21-2011, 01:06 AM
Ive posted my list many times. The Heavyweight champ should be the baddest man on the planet. A guy who could knock out anything with two legs regardless of discipline. Ali is not that type a guy, hes good but I just cant have a feather fister as the best Heavyweight ever. This is why I approve of you giving Joe Louis the nod, a man of power.

Heres mine:

1. Lennox Lewis
2. Max Schmelling
3. Joe Louis
4. Bob Fitzsimmons
5. George Foreman
6. John L Sullivan
7. Max Baer
8. Sonny Liston
9. Mike Tyson
10. Vitali Klitschko
11. Muhammad Ali
12. Harry Wills
13. Gene Tunney
14. Rocky Marciano
15. Jack Dempsey
16. Riddick Bowe
17. Joe Frazier
18. Larry Holmes
19. Jack Johnson
20. Samuel Langford
21. Gentleman Jim Corbett
22. Evander Holyfield
23. Jim Jeffries
24. Oliver Mccall
25. Earnie Shavers
Interesting list!

GJC
11-21-2011, 01:08 AM
How much further down would Harold Johnson be in your list?

He beat 2 of your Top 25.
He never stops! :) little bit under Archie I'd imagine Dan, as always ;)

IronDanHamza
11-21-2011, 11:21 AM
He never stops! :) little bit under Archie I'd imagine Dan, as always ;)

:lol1: :lol1:

Hey man, he can't be that much lower at that point.

How much lower would you put him than Jimmy Bivins? Can't be that much lower.

Rspen46
07-23-2013, 11:32 AM
So Tunney beats Dempsey twice & you have him ranked 25th & below Baer & some others, and you believe a 5-6 Sam Langford beats all the guys you have ranked under him, and J. Johnson so high, yet J. Jeffries so low, Jeffries went that whole fight with Johnson after years of not fighting, weighing well over 300 lbs. & have to lose nearly a 100 or more in a short time just to fight him, I say Jeffries beats him in shape & in prime, what's on Johnson's resume that gets him ranked so high, he did his best to avoid every great fighter he could, including Langford, he fought Jeannette & Mcvey when they were young & starting to get good. I think tunney if he had not retired, may have beaten Schmeling & baer at an older age even, definitely in his prime he would have, and K. Norton, seriously, I could find 10 guys or more I would pick over Norton, he may not beat D. Tua, or T. Morrison & I think Cooney does what he did against even a Prime Norton,

LacedUp
07-23-2013, 12:29 PM
I expect my list to be picked apart and argued over. That's cool, but post you own as well. Nothing is definitive and things are always changing the more we learn. I don't mind taking a little heat for my list. Do you? :boxing:

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Jack Johnson
4. Larry Holmes
5. Sonny Liston
6. Lennox Lewis
7. George Foreman
8. Mike Tyson
9. Evander Holyfield
10. Rocky Marciano

11. Joe Frazier
12. Harry Wills
13. Jack Dempsey
14. Jim Jeffries
15. Ezzard Charles
17. Sam Langford
18. Wladimir Klitschko
19. Joe Walcott
20. Max Schmeling

21. Ken Norton
22. Riddick Bowe
23. Max Baer
24. Jim Corbett
25. Gene Tunney

Earlier today I did a top 25 higher than Vitali K in ranking it goes something like this:

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Johnson
4. Lewis (tied with Foreman)
5. Foreman (tied with Lewis)
6. Holmes
7. Holyfield
8. Dempsey
9. Liston
10. Marciano (tied with Walcott)
11. JJ Walcott (tied with Marciano)
12. Frazier
13. Tyson
14. Charles
15. J. Jeffries
16. Tunney
17. W Klitschko
18. Patterson
19. Langford (Should prob be higher but just couldn't justify it)
20. Wills
21. Jeanette
22. Baer
23. Schemling
24. Braddock
25. Norton/ J Corbett

Anyone from the top 15 to 23 could probably be switched around. Would like to put Wills Jeffries, Jeanette and Langford a little higher but damn it's hard to justify.

GeneralZod
07-23-2013, 01:18 PM
I'm going to try to not think too hard, because otherwise this list would never be made.

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. George Foreman
4. Larry Holmes
5. Mike Tyson
6. Joe Frazier
7. Lennox Lewis
8. Rocky Marciano
9. Sonny Liston
10. Jack Dempsey

11. Evander Holyfield
12. Jack Johnson
13. Jersey Joe Walcott
14. Ezzard Charles
15. Max Baer
16. Kenny Norton
17. Max Schmeling
18. James J. Braddock
19. Riddick Bowe
20. James J. Jeffries


21. Floyd Patterson
22. Gene Tunney
23. Archie Moore
24. Michael Spinks
25. Ron Lyle

I don't count fighters that have little to no footage of them fighting. I also haven't seen much of Langford or Wills so i won't include them without a little more knowledge.

Bolo Punch
07-23-2013, 01:55 PM
Ive posted my list many times. The Heavyweight champ should be the baddest man on the planet. A guy who could knock out anything with two legs regardless of discipline. Ali is not that type a guy, hes good but I just cant have a feather fister as the best Heavyweight ever. This is why I approve of you giving Joe Louis the nod, a man of power.

Heres mine:

1. Lennox Lewis
2. Max Schmelling
3. Joe Louis
4. Bob Fitzsimmons
5. George Foreman
6. John L Sullivan
7. Max Baer
8. Sonny Liston
9. Mike Tyson
10. Vitali Klitschko
11. Muhammad Ali
12. Harry Wills
13. Gene Tunney
14. Rocky Marciano
15. Jack Dempsey
16. Riddick Bowe
17. Joe Frazier
18. Larry Holmes
19. Jack Johnson
20. Samuel Langford
21. Gentleman Jim Corbett
22. Evander Holyfield
23. Jim Jeffries
24. Oliver Mccall
25. Earnie Shavers

:lol1::lol1:

SBleeder
07-23-2013, 03:30 PM
Ive posted my list many times. The Heavyweight champ should be the baddest man on the planet. A guy who could knock out anything with two legs regardless of discipline. Ali is not that type a guy, hes good but I just cant have a feather fister as the best Heavyweight ever. This is why I approve of you giving Joe Louis the nod, a man of power.

Heres mine:

1. Lennox Lewis
2. Max Schmelling
3. Joe Louis
4. Bob Fitzsimmons
5. George Foreman
6. John L Sullivan
7. Max Baer
8. Sonny Liston
9. Mike Tyson
10. Vitali Klitschko
11. Muhammad Ali
12. Harry Wills
13. Gene Tunney
14. Rocky Marciano
15. Jack Dempsey
16. Riddick Bowe
17. Joe Frazier
18. Larry Holmes
19. Jack Johnson
20. Samuel Langford
21. Gentleman Jim Corbett
22. Evander Holyfield
23. Jim Jeffries
24. Oliver Mccall
25. Earnie Shavers

And yet... Ali knocked out two of the guys you have ranked ahead of him.

JAB5239
07-23-2013, 03:50 PM
So Tunney beats Dempsey twice & you have him ranked 25th & below Baer & some others, and you believe a 5-6 Sam Langford beats all the guys you have ranked under him, and J. Johnson so high, yet J. Jeffries so low, Jeffries went that whole fight with Johnson after years of not fighting, weighing well over 300 lbs. & have to lose nearly a 100 or more in a short time just to fight him, I say Jeffries beats him in shape & in prime, what's on Johnson's resume that gets him ranked so high, he did his best to avoid every great fighter he could, including Langford, he fought Jeannette & Mcvey when they were young & starting to get good. I think tunney if he had not retired, may have beaten Schmeling & baer at an older age even, definitely in his prime he would have, and K. Norton, seriously, I could find 10 guys or more I would pick over Norton, he may not beat D. Tua, or T. Morrison & I think Cooney does what he did against even a Prime Norton,

My list based on who you beat and when you beat them as well as other considerations such as conditions a fighter faced. Very little of it had to do with who I thought may or may not have won in mythical h2h fights.

JAB5239
07-23-2013, 03:54 PM
And yet... Ali knocked out two of the guys you have ranked ahead of him.

I like Zags, but that list is hard to justify.

Panamaniac
07-23-2013, 07:32 PM
I only do top 10, as I'm only interested in the very elite of every conceivable Boxing category. That said, here goes...

Louis
Ali
Holmes
Tyson
Foreman
Johnson
Liston
Marciano
Dempsey
Frazier

rightsideup
07-23-2013, 07:56 PM
I only do top 10, as I'm only interested in the very elite of every conceivable Boxing category. That said, here goes...

Louis
Ali
Holmes
Tyson
Foreman
Johnson
Liston
Marciano
Dempsey
Frazier

sorry my friend both Holyfield and Lewis rate above Tyson Imo

Ziggy Stardust
07-24-2013, 04:12 AM
The ATGs

01. Muhammad Ali
02. Joe Louis
03. Jack Johnson
04. Jack Dempsey
05. Larry Holmes
06. Sonny Liston
07. Evander Holyfield
08. George Foreman
09. Rocky Marciano
10. Mike Tyson
11. Joe Frazier
12. Harry Wills


The Near-Greats

13. Lennox Lewis
14. Jersey Joe Walcott
15. James Jeffries
16. Peter Jackson
17. Joe Jeannette
18. Riddick Bowe
19. Vitali Klitschko
20. James Corbett
21. Floyd Patterson
22. Max Schmeling
23. George Godfrey
24. Ken Norton
25. Wlad Klitschko
26. Sam McVey

I'm pretty sure everyone fiddles with their lists at least some from time to time. Right now I'd flip Lennox and Wills and probably drop Evander at least a couple of spots over PED suspicions.

Poet

LacedUp
07-24-2013, 05:18 AM
I only do top 10, as I'm only interested in the very elite of every conceivable Boxing category. That said, here goes...

Louis
Ali
Holmes
Tyson
Foreman
Johnson
Liston
Marciano
Dempsey
Frazier


Tyson has no place to be on a list higher than Foreman. No way jose.

Emon723
07-24-2013, 06:20 AM
My All-time lists

1.Ali
2.Louis
3.Holmes
4.Foreman
5.Lewis
6.Frazier
7.Holyfield
8.Marciano
9.Tyson
10.Vitali Klitschko
11.Wladimir Klitschko
12.Johnson
13.Dempsey
14.Tunney
15.Jeffries
16.Liston
17.Charles
18.Walcott
19.Norton
20.Bowe
21.Moorer
22.Michael Spinks
23.Burns
24.Patterson
25.Baer

I dont rate Jack Johnson and Jack Dempsey higher as historians always put Ali at number 1 and rank particularly Jack Johnson ahead of Joe Frazier, whatever they say on Tyson, he defend his title longer, 9 times, the Klitschkos deserves a place now among the heavyweight greats, and I only rate those who held world titles so Harry Wills is nowhere in my rankings.

LacedUp
07-24-2013, 06:27 AM
My All-time lists

1.Ali
2.Louis
3.Holmes
4.Foreman
5.Lewis
6.Frazier
7.Holyfield
8.Marciano
9.Tyson
10.Vitali Klitschko
11.Wladimir Klitschko
12.Johnson
13.Dempsey
14.Tunney
15.Jeffries
16.Liston
17.Charles
18.Walcott
19.Norton
20.Bowe
21.Moorer
22.Michael Spinks
23.Burns
24.Patterson
25.Baer

I dont rate Jack Johnson and Jack Dempsey higher as historians always put Ali at number 1 and rank particularly Jack Johnson ahead of Joe Frazier, whatever they say on Tyson, he defend his title longer, 9 times, the Klitschkos deserves a place now among the heavyweight greats, and I only rate those who held world titles so Harry Wills is nowhere in my rankings.

Going by that logic, Dempsey and especially Jack Johnson should be higher than Frazier? Why aren't they?

Also V. Klitschko over W. Klitschko? Based on what? And what do you base Michael Spinks on? Why is he higher than Patterson for example?

Panamaniac
07-24-2013, 11:15 AM
sorry my friend both Holyfield and Lewis rate above Tyson ImoNo need to be sorry, you (and everyone else) are (is) entitled to your (their) opinion(s). The purpose of this forum is to share those opinions.

Tyson has no place to be on a list higher than Foreman. No way jose.He does on mine and the world will not end; at least not as a result...

LacedUp
07-24-2013, 12:33 PM
No need to be sorry, you (and everyone else) are (is) entitled to your (their) opinion(s). The purpose of this forum is to share those opinions.

He does on mine and the world will not end; at least not as a result...
I'm just intrigued to hear what makes Tyson a greater heavyweight than George Foreman?

Anthony342
07-24-2013, 07:36 PM
And what about Michael Moorer? Was his heavyweight title reign really impressive enough to put him at top 25? All I remember is his impressive win over Holyfield and getting knocked out by old Foreman.

GeneralZod
07-24-2013, 08:19 PM
And what about Michael Moorer? Was his heavyweight title reign really impressive enough to put him at top 25? All I remember is his impressive win over Holyfield and getting knocked out by old Foreman.

If Jinx Spinks can make a top heavyweight list, i could see him too.

Emon723
07-24-2013, 10:17 PM
Going by that logic, Dempsey and especially Jack Johnson should be higher than Frazier? Why aren't they?

Also V. Klitschko over W. Klitschko? Based on what? And what do you base Michael Spinks on? Why is he higher than Patterson for example?

Since Frazier is known to have given Ali his toughest fights, then I believe he deserves a higher place, In fantasy fights, I just dont see Jack Johnson and Jack Dempsey from ever beating the Klitschkos, and speaking of the brothers, they dominated the heavyweight scene when Lewis retired, I guess Vitali is the superior one over Wlad despite a four-year layoff.

I never really respect Floyd Patterson's reign, he even defend his belt against someone making a pro debut, my rating of Spinks is not just winning over Holmes, yes he knock out an overrated Gerry Cooney but for a light heavyweight, its still an impressive win against a full-fledged heavyweight known for his punching power.

Ziggy Stardust
07-24-2013, 10:21 PM
he defend his title longer

He defended his title long NOT "he defend his title longer".

Poet

SBleeder
07-25-2013, 09:06 AM
He defended his title long NOT "he defend his title longer".

Poet

You're both wrong. It isn't "he defend his title longer", nor is it "he defended his title long".

"He defended his title longer" is correct.

http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd476/sabaron/Grammar-Police.png

LacedUp
07-25-2013, 10:07 AM
Since Frazier is known to have given Ali his toughest fights, then I believe he deserves a higher place, In fantasy fights, I just dont see Jack Johnson and Jack Dempsey from ever beating the Klitschkos, and speaking of the brothers, they dominated the heavyweight scene when Lewis retired, I guess Vitali is the superior one over Wlad despite a four-year layoff.

I never really respect Floyd Patterson's reign, he even defend his belt against someone making a pro debut, my rating of Spinks is not just winning over Holmes, yes he knock out an overrated Gerry Cooney but for a light heavyweight, its still an impressive win against a full-fledged heavyweight known for his punching power.

OK so because Jack Johnson and Jack Dempsey wouldn't beat the Klitschko's they can't rank higher?

What's with the H2H rank being brought into the history section? It's ridiculous.

Ziggy Stardust
07-25-2013, 01:41 PM
You're both wrong. It isn't "he defend his title longer", nor is it "he defended his title long".

"He defended his title longer" is correct.

http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd476/sabaron/Grammar-Police.png

:hahahaha9: Not sure how I missed that but then again I could pick apart his entire post for those little gems :hahahaha9:

Panamaniac
07-27-2013, 05:55 PM
I'm just intrigued to hear what makes Tyson a greater heavyweight than George Foreman?Tyson is not necessarily a "greater" heavyweight than Foreman, I rank him a notch above because his KO's have left a more lasting impression on me. I think Tyson's predatory urgency in dispatching his opponents is unparalelled. The two are so close, however, I could post a list next week (I hate ties, BTW) and rank Foreman above by virtue of his higher KO percentage.

young_robbed
07-27-2013, 06:15 PM
OK so because Jack Johnson and Jack Dempsey wouldn't beat the Klitschko's they can't rank higher?

What's with the H2H rank being brought into the history section? It's ridiculous.

maybe Johnson wouldn't beat Wlad but he would certainly give Vitali a go, look what Byrd did to Vitali. Dempsey would also have a shot to beat both based on his power alone.

LacedUp
07-27-2013, 06:20 PM
maybe Johnson wouldn't beat Wlad but he would certainly give Vitali a go, look what Byrd did to Vitali. Dempsey would also have a shot to beat both based on his power alone.
I wasn't saying they wouldn't beat them.

I was just making a point to clarify that fantasy H2H matchups do not have any implication n greatness. You have one chance to achieve greatness and that is in your era. It doesn't make a difference whether or not you would potentially beat this and that fighter, because you didn't.

That was the point.

Ziggy Stardust
07-28-2013, 12:31 AM
Tyson is not necessarily a "greater" heavyweight than Foreman, I rank him a notch above because his KO's have left a more lasting impression on me. I think Tyson's predatory urgency in dispatching his opponents is unparalelled. The two are so close, however, I could post a list next week (I hate ties, BTW) and rank Foreman above by virtue of his higher KO percentage.

Have you seen a prime Foreman's KOs? They were certainly as quick and brutal as you could ask for.

Poet

Scott9945
07-28-2013, 01:43 AM
Have you seen a prime Foreman's KOs? They were certainly as quick and brutal as you could ask for.

Poet

Foreman's wins over Frazier and Norton were more impressive than anything Tyson ever did. Sorry to those who find that painful to accept.

Panamaniac
07-28-2013, 11:43 AM
Have you seen a prime Foreman's KOs? They were certainly as quick and brutal as you could ask for.

PoetHow could I not? Norton and Frazier were spectacular, the latter in particular. Foreman litterally lifted him off his feet with an uppercut! I can still hear Howard Cosell's call: "Down goes Frazier! down goes Frazier! down goes Frazier!" This is enshrined among other sports classics like "The Giants win the pennat!" and "I can't believe what I just saw!"

GeneralZod
07-28-2013, 02:03 PM
Foreman's wins over Frazier and Norton were more impressive than anything Tyson ever did. Sorry to those who find that painful to accept.

Tyson's one of my favorite fighters, but that is true.

rightsideup
07-28-2013, 05:29 PM
Foreman's wins over Frazier and Norton were more impressive than anything Tyson ever did. Sorry to those who find that painful to accept.I tend to agree with you but Tyson's ko of berbick where he fell got up then fell again from one punch is pretty impressive.

beez721
07-28-2013, 05:36 PM
I tend to agree with you but Tyson's ko of berbick where he fell got up then fell again from one punch is pretty impressive.

berbick was no frazier or Norton though

Panamaniac
07-30-2013, 01:40 PM
I tend to agree with you but Tyson's ko of berbick where he fell got up then fell again from one punch is pretty impressive.

berbick was no frazier or Norton thoughBerbick not being Frazier or Norton is not Tyson's fault and should not detract from the magnitude or quality of a KO victory that made him the youngest to capture the heavyweight title.

Ziggy Stardust
07-30-2013, 02:01 PM
Berbick not being Frazier or Norton is not Tyson's fault and should not detract from the magnitude or quality of a KO victory that made him the youngest to capture the heavyweight title.

Sure it does. The quality of the opponent you knock out is always going to factor. You don't get credit for a spectacular KO over a high-grade fighter when get a spectacular KO over a club-level fighter.

Poet

Bodyshot3
07-30-2013, 02:55 PM
No real quibbles with the this to be honest....just a couple of observations.

Marciano looks a wee bit low in the top ten (maybe 7 or 8) and for sheer longevity of rule Vitali needs to have a top 25 spot.

Maybe Patterson makes it as well?

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Jack Johnson
4. Larry Holmes
5. Sonny Liston
6. Lennox Lewis
7. George Foreman
8. Mike Tyson
9. Evander Holyfield
10. Rocky Marciano

11. Joe Frazier
12. Harry Wills
13. Jack Dempsey
14. Jim Jeffries
15. Ezzard Charles
17. Sam Langford
18. Wladimir Klitschko
19. Joe Walcott
20. Max Schmeling

21. Ken Norton
22. Riddick Bowe
23. Max Baer
24. Jim Corbett
25. Gene Tunney

Panamaniac
07-30-2013, 07:09 PM
Berbick not being Frazier or Norton is not Tyson's fault and should not detract from the magnitude or quality of a KO victory that made him the youngest to capture the heavyweight title.

Sure it does. The quality of the opponent you knock out is always going to factor. You don't get credit for a spectacular KO over a high-grade fighter when get a spectacular KO over a club-level fighter.

PoetAre you implying that Berbick was a club-level fighter?

rightsideup
07-30-2013, 07:27 PM
Are you implying that Berbick was a club-level fighter?Trevor was pretty durable but inconsistent I was impressed by Tyson's ko of him.

Ziggy Stardust
07-30-2013, 08:02 PM
Are you implying that Berbick was a club-level fighter?

I'm not implying it, I'm saying flat-out he was a club-level fighter.

Poet

Panamaniac
08-01-2013, 02:27 PM
I'm not implying it, I'm saying flat-out he [Trevor Berbick] was a club-level fighter.

PoetThanks to you, I've now learned that club-level fighters contend, fight for, gain, defend and retain world championships at world-class venues.

That I may gain perspective with my newly-acquired knowledge, indulge me the following question: Were all of Mike Tyson's wins against "club-level" fighters? If not, who is/are the exception(s)?

Ziggy Stardust
08-01-2013, 02:33 PM
Thanks to you, I've now learned that club-level fighters contend, fight for, gain, defend and retain world championships at world-class venues.

That I may gain perspective with my newly-acquired knowledge, indulge me the following question: Were all of Mike Tyson's wins against "club-level" fighters? If not, who is/are the exception(s)

Were all of Tyson's fights against Trevor Berbick? No? Then no all of Tyson's fights weren't against club-level fighters now were they? Tucker, Smith, and Thomas were far better fighters than Berbick.

And yes, club-level fighter do get to fight for titles sometimes and in an era where the top contenders are squandering their talents on buffets and blow they sometimes luck into wins too. Even club-level fighters like Berbick can win a belt if the the belt holder can't be assed to train and comes in out of shape and overweight.