View Full Version : Kid vs Kid: all time


JAB5239
11-16-2011, 01:40 AM
According to the international boxing research organization Kid Gavilan is ranked 6th all time at welterweight. Kid Chocolate is ranked 7th aat feaatherweight. Neither rank in the top 20 p4p, but if you had to pick who should rank higher who would it be and why?

RubenSonny
11-16-2011, 03:09 AM
Gavilan ranks 20 on my list.

IronDanHamza
11-16-2011, 07:32 AM
Gavilan ranks 20 on my list.

He would rank abot there on mine also.

JAB5239
11-16-2011, 09:15 AM
Gavilan ranks 20 on my list.

He would rank abot there on mine also.

What about Chocolate? It's said he was robbed against Canzoneri in their first fight and Battling Battalino. Surely he would rank higher historcally with these two wins, no?

NChristo
11-16-2011, 09:35 AM
What about Chocolate? It's said he was robbed against Canzoneri in their first fight and Battling Battalino. Surely he would rank higher historcally with these two wins, no?

But then you could say that Gavilan was robbed against Robinson. :dunno:


The more I look at it the closer it gets, used to think Gavilan but now I can't decide.

JAB5239
11-16-2011, 09:53 AM
But then you could say that Gavilan was robbed against Robinson. :dunno:

I have to respectffully disagree. That fight wasn't as close as Chocolates fights and the crowds were''t in an uproar over the decision. The questionable losses were also to white fighters and we all know those kkind of robberies happened often back than.

The more I look at it the closer it gets, used to think Gavilan but now I can't decide.

Im in the same boat which is why I posed the question. Im just playing devil's advocate by disagreeing with you on the above.

NChristo
11-16-2011, 10:05 AM
I have to respectffully disagree. That fight wasn't as close as Chocolates fights and the crowds were''t in an uproar over the decision. The questionable losses were also to white fighters and we all know those kkind of robberies happened often back than.

Except the crowd was in uproar, the fans apparently 'disagreed violently' with the decision and "set up such a roar of disagreement that the introduction of the championship principals was delayed until order was restored."

Took from boxrec, I read an article on it a while a go but am stuggling to find it, so that's all I have unfortunately, will post if I find.

IronDanHamza
11-16-2011, 11:21 AM
What about Chocolate? It's said he was robbed against Canzoneri in their first fight and Battling Battalino. Surely he would rank higher historcally with these two wins, no?

I consider Kid Chocolate to be an underrated fighter but I wouldn't rank him higher than Kid Gavilan.

NChristo makes a good point in response to the Canzoneri fight for Chocolate.

Of course assuming that was a robbery (Which I do take into account when ranking apparent robberies I haven't seen in full I.e Locche-Ortiz) he would be ranked higher. But the same can be said for Gavilan and Ray Robinson.

Either way I still think it's Gavilan.

New England
11-16-2011, 11:41 AM
i'd call gavilan the greater fighter

both were terrific. unique fighters

kid chocolate made boxing look easy. prototypical cuban
i got a chance to see a cuban with a serious//national amateur background in person and you can see his influence, from the little guys to felix savon

JAB5239
11-16-2011, 11:43 AM
I consider Kid Chocolate to be an underrated fighter but I wouldn't rank him higher than Kid Gavilan.

NChristo makes a good point in response to the Canzoneri fight for Chocolate.

Of course assuming that was a robbery (Which I do take into account when ranking apparent robberies I haven't seen in full I.e Locche-Ortiz) he would be ranked higher. But the same can be said for Gavilan and Ray Robinson.

Either way I still think it's Gavilan.

Good points from both of you, I just didn't feel like arguing something Im not sold on. It's close and I wouldn't fault anyone for picking one or the other without putting both their careers under a microscope first.

NChristo
11-16-2011, 12:44 PM
One thing Chocolate has for definite over Gavilan is consistency, he only ever lost too HOFers and the one loss that wasn't too a HOFer he was probably robbed in, where as Gavilan was losing to boxers who shouldn't off although I've heard a lot of them decisions were robberies also (excluding before mentioned Robinson fight).

Notable wins

Gavilan: Carmen Basilio, Ike Williams, Beau Jack, Billy Graham, Gaspar Ortega, Chuck Davey, Gil Turner.
Arguably Ray Robinson

Chocolate: Fidel LaBarba, Benny Bass, Al Singer, Tommy Watson.
Arguably Tony Canzoneri and Battling Battalino

Probably missing a few names, Williams and Jack weren't at their best weights and past it against Gavilan neither would go on too do much apart from their great fights together, Basilio was in his prime and would go on too beat Robinson, Art Aragon, Fullmer, Saxton, Demarco. Billy Graham remained a contender beating Gavilan himself, Basilio, Aragon and Joey Giardello. Chuck Davey was unbeaten coming off wins over Basilio and Ike Williams went on too do nothing after losing to Gavilan. Gil Turner, unbeaten coming off wins over Beau Jack and Bernard Docusen, would go on to beat Fullmer and Saxton.

LaBarba, just going through his career again I never realized he had 3 fights with McLarnin in his first 5 bouts, don't know too much about him, he was a Flyweight coming up to fight Chocolate, had a great win over Genaro, Benny Bass great win, again I don't know too much about Bass's career either or how worn he was at the time of this bout, Singer had just beat Bud Taylor and was coming off a draw with Tony Canzoneri, would go on too beat Sammy Mandell, don't know much about Watson either but he was coming off wins over Nel Tarleton and LaBarba.

Obviously brief look at their top opponents, someone more versed on Chocolates era could tell a lot more.

JAB5239
11-16-2011, 02:18 PM
One thing Chocolate has for definite over Gavilan is consistency, he only ever lost too HOFers and the one loss that wasn't too a HOFer he was probably robbed in, where as Gavilan was losing to boxers who shouldn't off although I've heard a lot of them decisions were robberies also (excluding before mentioned Robinson fight).

Notable wins

Gavilan: Carmen Basilio, Ike Williams, Beau Jack, Billy Graham, Gaspar Ortega, Chuck Davey, Gil Turner.
Arguably Ray Robinson

Chocolate: Fidel LaBarba, Benny Bass, Al Singer, Tommy Watson.
Arguably Tony Canzoneri and Battling Battalino

Probably missing a few names, Williams and Jack weren't at their best weights and past it against Gavilan neither would go on too do much apart from their great fights together, Basilio was in his prime and would go on too beat Robinson, Art Aragon, Fullmer, Saxton, Demarco. Billy Graham remained a contender beating Gavilan himself, Basilio, Aragon and Joey Giardello. Chuck Davey was unbeaten coming off wins over Basilio and Ike Williams went on too do nothing after losing to Gavilan. Gil Turner, unbeaten coming off wins over Beau Jack and Bernard Docusen, would go on to beat Fullmer and Saxton.

LaBarba, just going through his career again I never realized he had 3 fights with McLarnin in his first 5 bouts, don't know too much about him, he was a Flyweight coming up to fight Chocolate, had a great win over Genaro, Benny Bass great win, again I don't know too much about Bass's career either or how worn he was at the time of this bout, Singer had just beat Bud Taylor and was coming off a draw with Tony Canzoneri, would go on too beat Sammy Mandell, don't know much about Watson either but he was coming off wins over Nel Tarleton and LaBarba.

Obviously brief look at their top opponents, someone more versed on Chocolates era could tell a lot more.

Good stuff! :fing02:

IronDanHamza
11-16-2011, 02:42 PM
One thing Chocolate has for definite over Gavilan is consistency, he only ever lost too HOFers and the one loss that wasn't too a HOFer he was probably robbed in, where as Gavilan was losing to boxers who shouldn't off although I've heard a lot of them decisions were robberies also (excluding before mentioned Robinson fight).

Notable wins

Gavilan: Carmen Basilio, Ike Williams, Beau Jack, Billy Graham, Gaspar Ortega, Chuck Davey, Gil Turner.
Arguably Ray Robinson

Chocolate: Fidel LaBarba, Benny Bass, Al Singer, Tommy Watson.
Arguably Tony Canzoneri and Battling Battalino

Probably missing a few names, Williams and Jack weren't at their best weights and past it against Gavilan neither would go on too do much apart from their great fights together, Basilio was in his prime and would go on too beat Robinson, Art Aragon, Fullmer, Saxton, Demarco. Billy Graham remained a contender beating Gavilan himself, Basilio, Aragon and Joey Giardello. Chuck Davey was unbeaten coming off wins over Basilio and Ike Williams went on too do nothing after losing to Gavilan. Gil Turner, unbeaten coming off wins over Beau Jack and Bernard Docusen, would go on to beat Fullmer and Saxton.

LaBarba, just going through his career again I never realized he had 3 fights with McLarnin in his first 5 bouts, don't know too much about him, he was a Flyweight coming up to fight Chocolate, had a great win over Genaro, Benny Bass great win, again I don't know too much about Bass's career either or how worn he was at the time of this bout, Singer had just beat Bud Taylor and was coming off a draw with Tony Canzoneri, would go on too beat Sammy Mandell, don't know much about Watson either but he was coming off wins over Nel Tarleton and LaBarba.

Obviously brief look at their top opponents, someone more versed on Chocolates era could tell a lot more.

Benny Bass was a good fighter. Past his best, but certainly still capable at the time.

Al Singer was absolutely a good win also.

Your pretty much on the money with Chocolate. Missing decent wins like Eddie Shea. Beat Lew Feldman a few times despite being not at his best aswell.

Kid Chocolate was more consistent than Gavilan but a lot of his competition wasn't stellar at times. Then again I guess the same argument can be said for Gavilan.

Either way, giving both of them the benefits of the doubt. I still think Gavilan beat the better fighters and had the better resume.

IronDanHamza
11-16-2011, 06:06 PM
Also, just to highlight, we are using the basis of giving someone who offically lost credit due to uproar or a crowd.

On the other hand, the same applies for Marquez last saturday.

Oh wait, that was a robbery too.

Carry on.

NChristo
11-16-2011, 08:15 PM
Who do you guys think was the more talented ?.

IronDanHamza
11-16-2011, 08:47 PM
Who do you guys think was the more talented ?.

I think Gavilan was.

Kid Gavilan is one of the most talented fighters I have ever seen, personally.

Greatest1942
11-17-2011, 07:07 PM
Except the crowd was in uproar, the fans apparently 'disagreed violently' with the decision and "set up such a roar of disagreement that the introduction of the championship principals was delayed until order was restored."

Took from boxrec, I read an article on it a while a go but am stuggling to find it, so that's all I have unfortunately, will post if I find.
I think the Sugar Ray - Gavilan fights are made much closer than they were.

While a section of the crowd did violently disagree, the judges (obviously) and all the sports writers saw it as a Robinson win.

It might have been close, but I think Robinson edged it. In short the worse deal was reserved for the other Kid. Read this its interesting
from an excellent writer

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=NIItAAAAIBAJ&sjid=VJkFAAAAIBAJ&pg=6501,4900020&dq=gavilan+robinson&hl=en

Greatest1942
11-17-2011, 07:16 PM
Also, just to highlight, we are using the basis of giving someone who offically lost credit due to uproar or a crowd.

On the other hand, the same applies for Marquez last saturday.

Oh wait, that was a robbery too.

Carry on.

But no sports writer worth his salt will give the fight against Marquez . Almost all of them gave to Robinson. Big difference ain't it?

Greatest1942
11-17-2011, 07:20 PM
But no sports writer worth his salt will give the fight against Marquez . Almost all of them gave to Robinson. Big difference ain't it?

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=ihoaAAAAIBAJ&sjid=DyUEAAAAIBAJ&pg=3975,2852981&dq=sugar+ray+robinson+vs+gavilan&hl=en

Apparently Robinson's jab helped. As I said a lot has been made of the crowd out roars but in this case its 80% sure, that they were probably wrong. Robinson legitimately won that fight.

IronDanHamza
11-17-2011, 07:43 PM
But no sports writer worth his salt will give the fight against Marquez . Almost all of them gave to Robinson. Big difference ain't it?

Yeah, true.

JAB5239
11-18-2011, 10:14 PM
Bumped for TheGreatA.

GJC
11-19-2011, 12:42 PM
England produces the best kids, Lewis and Berg. ;)
As for the question Gavilan but Chocolate doesn't get as much ink as he deserves.

NChristo
11-19-2011, 01:53 PM
I think the Sugar Ray - Gavilan fights are made much closer than they were.

While a section of the crowd did violently disagree, the judges (obviously) and all the sports writers saw it as a Robinson win.

It might have been close, but I think Robinson edged it. In short the worse deal was reserved for the other Kid. Read this its interesting
from an excellent writer

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=NIItAAAAIBAJ&sjid=VJkFAAAAIBAJ&pg=6501,4900020&dq=gavilan+robinson&hl=en

Thanks for this.

frosty-g
11-19-2011, 03:47 PM
England produces the best kids, Lewis and Berg. ;)
As for the question Gavilan but Chocolate doesn't get as much ink as he deserves.

gavilan is hardly ever mentioned in cuba whereas kid chocolate is The name in cuba's boxing history.
doesn't mean he was better but they certainly consider him greater.