View Full Version : Did JMM-Pacquiao III Hurt pacman's ranking?


GrandpaBernard
11-14-2011, 11:15 AM
He did come into the fight with all the perceived advantages and lost pretty bad. It wasn't a bigger man who beat him either but someone his size. Discuss.

IronDanHamza
11-14-2011, 11:44 AM
Hmmmmm, I'm not sure.

Although Pacquaio had all the advantages and was expected to win as a 1/10 favourite, I think that was down to an entire population of fans being unaware how good Marquez can perform at WW.

All we had as a measuring stick was the Mayweather fight. One in which he looked horrible.

But, now we can pretty much conclude that was down to Mayweather, not the weight.

And all in all, losing to an ATG is no shame at all.

So I'm going to say no, not particulary.

I do feel however that Mayweather stock obviously rise's since a win over an ATG went from worthless to legit overnight.

CarlosG815
11-14-2011, 11:45 AM
It should. People should really take a look at this and realize what kind of fighter he is. Instead, most people make excuses for him.

Marchegiano
11-14-2011, 01:11 PM
IMO the Shane fight and the JMM fight together kind of suggest he's not as close to Mayweather as we may have previously perceived. I'm not sure if I'm ready to say he deserves to be ranked any differently, but I can safely say I've lost interest in those two fights. Floyd wins that. I think Manny ought to retire to be honest.

wmute
11-14-2011, 01:13 PM
There was a big question on mark on how Pac 2.0 would deal with a skilled boxer. While one fight is not the definitive answer, it certainly says something.

Left Hook Tua
11-14-2011, 01:14 PM
current p4p rankings?

yes.

floyd should be #1 now.


legacy wise? historical rankings?

i doubt it.

he'll still be considered an atg and one of the best ever.

The Surgeon
11-14-2011, 01:19 PM
AT WW? P4P? Historically?

To me Floyd is the best fighter in the world so tops him at WW and P4P, Pac being #2

Historically i like to think Manny will still get his props but hopefully the fan boy hype and over rating of today will have been helped to cool off after Marquez showed Manny is no superman.

IronDanHamza
11-14-2011, 01:21 PM
current p4p rankings?

yes.

floyd should be #1 now.


legacy wise? historical rankings?

i doubt it.

he'll still be considered an atg and one of the best ever.

Oh, absolutely. I agree there.

Pacquaio will always be considered an ATG. He's already sealed that regardless to what happens in the future.

BigStereotype
11-14-2011, 02:48 PM
No, it just showed that he was more Tito Trinidad than Sugar Ray Robinson. Which is what I always thought, it just proved it to everyone else.

Scott9945
11-14-2011, 06:45 PM
IMO the Shane fight and the JMM fight together kind of suggest he's not as close to Mayweather as we may have previously perceived. I'm not sure if I'm ready to say he deserves to be ranked any differently, but I can safely say I've lost interest in those two fights. Floyd wins that. I think Manny ought to retire to be honest.


He's making over 20 million dollars in each fight without taking major punishment, and you think he should retire? Would you?

RubenSonny
11-14-2011, 07:26 PM
Yeah I think it should a bit, Marquez deserves all the credit in the world but a big part of that credit is due to how past it he is, and what happened to Pacquiao on Saturday was frankly embarrassing.

crold1
11-14-2011, 07:45 PM
Yeah I think it should a bit, Marquez deserves all the credit in the world but a big part of that credit is due to how past it he is, and what happened to Pacquiao on Saturday was frankly embarrassing.

How past it is he? Outside Mayweather, he's looked like the same old badass pretty much non-stop since Pac II. He got underestimated for the wrong reasons. We should adjust perception to reality; not the other way around.

There might be a knee jerk as part and parcel of a general Pac backlash over the last year or so, but in the long run this rivalry is one of many components that will go into rating Pac at the end and shouldn't have much more impact than the first two fight

SCtrojansbaby
11-14-2011, 08:01 PM
Floyd didn't look too good against Ortiz either

Scott9945
11-14-2011, 08:08 PM
Floyd didn't look too good against Ortiz either

I thought he totally outclassed Ortiz.

SCtrojansbaby
11-14-2011, 08:19 PM
I thought he totally outclassed Ortiz.

Floyd was winning but Floyd laid on the ropes and and let Ortiz throw combos, combo's that if Pacquiao was throwing Floyd wouldn't be able get out the way of. Its just a matter of hand speed and who has more of it when ever they fight, IMO Pacquiao being younger probable has that slight advantage.

Scott9945
11-14-2011, 08:29 PM
Floyd was winning but Floyd laid on the ropes and and let Ortiz throw combos, combo's that if Pacquiao was throwing Floyd wouldn't be able get out the way of. Its just a matter of hand speed and who has more of it when ever they fight, IMO Pacquiao being younger probable has that slight advantage.

Mayweather knew exactly who he was fighting and was coasting on his way to an easy win. How those tactics would work against Pacquaio is just speculative and pretty much irrelevant.

RubenSonny
11-14-2011, 08:33 PM
How past it is he? Outside Mayweather, he's looked like the same old badass pretty much non-stop since Pac II. He got underestimated for the wrong reasons. We should adjust perception to reality; not the other way around.

There might be a knee jerk as part and parcel of a general Pac backlash over the last year or so, but in the long run this rivalry is one of many components that will go into rating Pac at the end and shouldn't have much more impact than the first two fight

This is the same guy who struggled against a washed up Casa, was getting buzzed by Juan Diaz - went through quite a lot to get that win, and he was dropped by Katsidis. in all of his fights at lightweight he has looked past it he is far removed from his prime he doesn't have the same legs at all, in fact he was showing signs of decline before the 2nd meeting with Pacquiao. He is undoubtedly past it, I don't see any argument against it either, your using 1 fight against several and the general consensus for the past few years had been that he is well past-it.

crold1
11-14-2011, 08:43 PM
This is the same guy who struggled against a washed up Casa, was getting buzzed by Juan Diaz - went through quite a lot to get that win, and he was dropped by Katsidis. in all of his fights at lightweight he has looked past it he is far removed from his prime he doesn't have the same legs at all, in fact he was showing signs of decline before the 2nd meeting with Pacquiao. He is undoubtedly past it, I don't see any argument against it either, your using 1 fight against several and the general consensus for the past few years had been that he is well past-it.

I didn't say he's still 100% prime...but he's so far from shot or washed up its not funny. Thus the question: how far past it? Not that far. Casa had rebounded from the Santa Cruz debacle to have a great performance against Katsidis and he and JMM was a stellar fight. Juan Diaz was a hell of a fighter and Marquez owned Katsidis for most of the night minus the third. That is STILL one of the best fighters in the world (which was the consensus as well if you care about P4P nonsense) and Pac's perfect foil. That fight Saturday, in the long run, won't hurt Pac unless we're talking about some moron who was rating him above Rob. It will just further the debates about this rival.

RubenSonny
11-14-2011, 09:39 PM
I didn't say he's still 100% prime...but he's so far from shot or washed up its not funny. Thus the question: how far past it? Not that far. Casa had rebounded from the Santa Cruz debacle to have a great performance against Katsidis and he and JMM was a stellar fight. Juan Diaz was a hell of a fighter and Marquez owned Katsidis for most of the night minus the third. That is STILL one of the best fighters in the world (which was the consensus as well if you care about P4P nonsense) and Pac's perfect foil. That fight Saturday, in the long run, won't hurt Pac unless we're talking about some moron who was rating him above Rob. It will just further the debates about this rival.

Diaz was a good fighter but nothing more than that, getting hurt by him and having a huge amount of trouble with him shows Marquez is far past his best. In all honesty Katsidis is an average fighter and getting caught cleanly like that also reinforces my claim. Casamayor was washed up, and Marquez had a lot of trouble with him, pointing out that it was a stellar fight just backs up my point - it really shouldn't have been. All of those fighters Marquez struggled with are leagues behind Pacquiao in every regard. You don't even need to mention the Mayweather fight but if you do he lost every round and wasn't effective at all. Being past-it depends on your physical condition and Marquez has been getting a lot worse physically over the past few years, though he is mentally (ring IQ, intangibles etc) as strong as ever. I'm comfortable in calling him washed up or on the verge of being washed up.

crold1
11-14-2011, 09:44 PM
Diaz was a good fighter but nothing more than that, getting hurt by him and having a huge amount of trouble with him shows Marquez is far past his best. In all honesty Katsidis is an average fighter and getting caught cleanly like that also reinforces my claim. Casamayor was washed up, and Marquez had a lot of trouble with him, pointing out that it was a stellar fight just backs up my point - it really shouldn't have been. All of those fighters Marquez struggled with are leagues behind Pacquiao in every regard. You don't even need to mention the Mayweather fight but if you do he lost every round and wasn't effective at all. Being past-it depends on your physical condition and Marquez has been getting a lot worse physically over the past few years, though he is mentally (ring IQ, intangibles etc) as strong as ever. I'm comfortable in calling him washed up or on the verge of being washed up.

I'm comfortable disagreeing.

SCtrojansbaby
11-14-2011, 09:51 PM
Mayweather knew exactly who he was fighting and was coasting on his way to an easy win. How those tactics would work against Pacquaio is just speculative and pretty much irrelevant.

I don't think Mayweather can fight the way he used to(constant lateral movement and angles). At 34 he is a flat footed fighter that relies MUCH more heavily on the shoulder roll to avoid punches than he used to.

BigStereotype
11-14-2011, 11:52 PM
I don't think Mayweather can fight the way he used to(constant lateral movement and angles). At 34 he is a flat footed fighter that relies MUCH more heavily on the shoulder roll to avoid punches than he used to.

Because he can. Marquez was more of a stand-and-bang fighter before last night. If Mayweather has to, he can dance around and move. I promise.

BigStereotype
11-15-2011, 12:05 AM
This is the same guy who struggled against a washed up Casa, was getting buzzed by Juan Diaz - went through quite a lot to get that win, and he was dropped by Katsidis. in all of his fights at lightweight he has looked past it he is far removed from his prime he doesn't have the same legs at all, in fact he was showing signs of decline before the 2nd meeting with Pacquiao. He is undoubtedly past it, I don't see any argument against it either, your using 1 fight against several and the general consensus for the past few years had been that he is well past-it.

I take it that he was "Morales"ing those guys - he knew he could bang it out with them so he did. He showed speed, accuracy, combinations and better defense than I've seen from him in a long long time against Pacquiao. He could just be another ageless wonder.

Warring Don
11-15-2011, 12:11 AM
Yes, they should change the pound for pound rankings. Mayweather should be #1. Marquez should be up higher than where he is now and Manny should be somewhere below Marquez.

As far as Mayweathr being flatfooted. He has fought flatfooted before when he was younger. A part of me believes that he is fighting in this manner purposely. A part of me does wonder though... i can't lie.

BigStereotype
11-15-2011, 11:37 AM
I take it that he was "Morales"ing those guys - he knew he could bang it out with them so he did. He showed speed, accuracy, combinations and better defense than I've seen from him in a long long time against Pacquiao. He could just be another ageless wonder.

Just for a bit of context (so I don't look TOTALLY like a blind nuthugger :lol1:), he "struggled" with Terdsak Jandaeng and Jimrex Jaca before he even left featherweight. He just likes to win an exciting fight if he thinks he has the option.

TheGreatA
11-15-2011, 11:43 AM
Pacquiao can still redeem himself. All the greats have had off-nights, and while I'm not convinced that this was one, he could have it categorized as an off-night with a decisive win over Marquez in a rematch or Mayweather of course.

In that case it will take very little away from his legacy. As of now, I believe it shows that Pacquiao matches up with certain fighters far better than with others and that his recent dominance has a lot to do with clever match-making.

Marchegiano
11-15-2011, 03:21 PM
He's making over 20 million dollars in each fight without taking major punishment, and you think he should retire? Would you?

I didn't mean that as an attack on PacMan. I feel like he's done enough, and there isn't much left for him. Sure he can make money, but his historical achievement days imo are probably behind him. Yes, I'd retire. Why not get out while your still a king?

The Surgeon
11-15-2011, 03:26 PM
I didn't mean that as an attack on PacMan. I feel like he's done enough, and there isn't much left for him. Sure he can make money, but his historical achievement days imo are probably behind him. Yes, I'd retire. Why not get out while your still a king?

Seems the smart choice huh, but history tells us it must be hard to turn down all that cash per fight despite being filthy rich already. There's also EGO.

I think Floyd needs to make the fight ASAP before Manny does retire, its so winnable - tests or not.

The Surgeon
11-15-2011, 03:27 PM
Just for a bit of context (so I don't look TOTALLY like a blind nuthugger :lol1:), he "struggled" with Terdsak Jandaeng and Jimrex Jaca before he even left featherweight. He just likes to win an exciting fight if he thinks he has the option.

Two of his best fights. Watch em all the time - The Uppercuts....The Uppercuts.... :luvbed:

lightsout_finit
11-15-2011, 03:43 PM
Underdog or not, I knew for certain Marquez would win that fight and get robbed.

I am honestly shocked by the amount of people who were thinking otherwise before the fight.
What had pac done to suggest he'd finally solved Maruez style in his fights just before this one???
NOTHING

Pac is like a child who's learned not to touch the stove or he'll get burned.
Meaning he's afraid to fight to valiantly against Marquez, because he knows he'll get punished for evry mistake.
The hunger and fire he used to have is all gone.......

Steak
11-15-2011, 04:59 PM
no, as in all their other fights Marquez gave Pacquiao hell. nothing changed, and its not like I bought into the 'Pacquiao has changed so dramatically' BS.

In fact, to me this was Marquez's least impressive performance. I thought he(maruqez) did better in the 2nd fight and deserved the win, while even though I gave him a draw in the first fight he still won more rounds in that fight than the other two, and thats despite his horrible start to the fight.

I did expect Marquez to do worse, but thats mostly because he hasnt looked good in his last outings. He still looked worse than his other two fights against Pacquiao, but performed much better than I expected going into the fight.

TintaBoricua
11-15-2011, 09:13 PM
This is the same guy who struggled against a washed up Casa, was getting buzzed by Juan Diaz - went through quite a lot to get that win, and he was dropped by Katsidis. in all of his fights at lightweight he has looked past it he is far removed from his prime he doesn't have the same legs at all, in fact he was showing signs of decline before the 2nd meeting with Pacquiao. He is undoubtedly past it, I don't see any argument against it either, your using 1 fight against several and the general consensus for the past few years had been that he is well past-it.

He looked bad because Casamayor isn’t a come-forward fighter. A boxer gives Márquez fits or doesn’t allow him to look good because he doesn’t provide him wide windows of opportunity with multiple shots.

Juan Díaz buzzed him maybe twice or three times in that fight, but Márquez never looked genuinely hurt or on the verge of being stopped or knocked out. He always fought back and would land the harder combinations with terrific fluidity, easy to overlook since Díaz swarming him with a lot of punches, but not with the same force.

Katsidis' only shining moment in that fight was the left hook that put Márquez down, and even then…Márquez beat the brakes off of him while closing that same round where he was knocked down. The uppercut combination he lands as the bell for round 3 sounds is a thing of beauty.

I didn't say he's still 100% prime...but he's so far from shot or washed up its not funny. Thus the question: how far past it? Not that far. Casa had rebounded from the Santa Cruz debacle to have a great performance against Katsidis and he and JMM was a stellar fight. Juan Diaz was a hell of a fighter and Marquez owned Katsidis for most of the night minus the third. That is STILL one of the best fighters in the world (which was the consensus as well if you care about P4P nonsense) and Pac's perfect foil. That fight Saturday, in the long run, won't hurt Pac unless we're talking about some moron who was rating him above Rob. It will just further the debates about this rival.

I wouldn’t say Casa had a brilliant performance against Katsidis. He scored two flash knockdowns in the first round (good for him) but as the rounds progressed he was getting badly beaten up and fell out of the ring midway through the fight from taking too many shots (and scored a knockdown). Casamayor was getting progressively worse before he landed that hook out of nowhere as Katsidis rushed him. Damn shame. Good win? Of course. Katsidis was undefeated at the time. Spectacular performance? I wouldn’t go that far. Other than that, I agree with your post.

New England
11-15-2011, 09:46 PM
absolutely

an impressive win would have validated his supremacy in plan english, even if the deck was stacked against marquez with the weight and their relative ages. people would have said "yeah, marquez was competitive, but in the end manny was the superior fighter." now we're likely to look back at them on an even keel.
in a perfect world with perfect judging they could fight a rematch, but we all know exactly what would go down. marquez would have to blast him out of there to get the W, and that's just not happening.

now we have a 38 year old LW putting on a better show than all of the guys who made pacquiao a star (de la hoya, hatton, cotto, margarito)
he looked spectacular with those guys


he's also looking to me all the more vulnerable as a boxer in terms of the holes that can be poked in his game
the man has developed his craft, but can still be outboxed.
even by a 38 year old lightweight walking into the ring at 150 lbs.


in terms of his favorability h2h with other greats i tend to believe this fight really hurts his case


and on marquez:
he's always been a great fighter to me. i'm on record around here saying he might be my favorite active fighter. i wanted him to win.
his legend is growing, especially in mexico. from what little i've seen of the reactions of the mexicanos i'm noticing a huge difference in the level of adoration.
he's just a monster. bonafide legend. plenty of guys out there who know boxing and are entitled to an opinion as any other will argue with you that marquez won all three fights. and not all of them will be from mexico.


i got a fight for you beasts
marquez and

el terrible

el terrible would be in way over his head
just how he likes it. those guys would duke it out

in a bull ring in mexico.

Scott9945
11-15-2011, 09:54 PM
I didn't mean that as an attack on PacMan. I feel like he's done enough, and there isn't much left for him. Sure he can make money, but his historical achievement days imo are probably behind him. Yes, I'd retire. Why not get out while your still a king?

I always admire fighters who know when to retire. But I also get the impression that Manny really loves the game and of course the adulation. When you're making that kind of money and most of your fights are easy it's hard to walk away. If he looks subpar in his next fight (against a different opponent), then he should get out before he ends up like De La Hoya or Hatton did after he beat them.

GoogleMe
11-16-2011, 02:48 PM
Well, Pacquiao might want to fight FLoyd, but Arum won't let it happen. He knows, that his cashcow will lose.

I don't think it hurt it all that much, as the result is pretty similair to the other ones.

BigStereotype
11-16-2011, 05:00 PM
absolutely

an impressive win would have validated his supremacy in plan english, even if the deck was stacked against marquez with the weight and their relative ages. people would have said "yeah, marquez was competitive, but in the end manny was the superior fighter." now we're likely to look back at them on an even keel.
in a perfect world with perfect judging they could fight a rematch, but we all know exactly what would go down. marquez would have to blast him out of there to get the W, and that's just not happening.

now we have a 38 year old LW putting on a better show than all of the guys who made pacquiao a star (de la hoya, hatton, cotto, margarito)
he looked spectacular with those guys


he's also looking to me all the more vulnerable as a boxer in terms of the holes that can be poked in his game
the man has developed his craft, but can still be outboxed.
even by a 38 year old lightweight walking into the ring at 150 lbs.


in terms of his favorability h2h with other greats i tend to believe this fight really hurts his case


and on marquez:
he's always been a great fighter to me. i'm on record around here saying he might be my favorite active fighter. i wanted him to win.
his legend is growing, especially in mexico. from what little i've seen of the reactions of the mexicanos i'm noticing a huge difference in the level of adoration.
he's just a monster. bonafide legend. plenty of guys out there who know boxing and are entitled to an opinion as any other will argue with you that marquez won all three fights. and not all of them will be from mexico.


i got a fight for you beasts
marquez and

el terrible

el terrible would be in way over his head
just how he likes it. those guys would duke it out

in a bull ring in mexico.

I agree with all your takes here. Especially Marquez-Terrible. Haven't yall been watching these guys enough to know now to count one of them out? Terrible would put up a fight but I think he'd be athletically and technically outgunned. It would be a damn good fight I'm sure of it.

IronDanHamza
11-16-2011, 05:12 PM
I agree with all your takes here. Especially Marquez-Terrible. Haven't yall been watching these guys enough to know now to count one of them out? Terrible would put up a fight but I think he'd be athletically and technically outgunned. It would be a damn good fight I'm sure of it.

The thing is, Marquez gets no credit for beating him at this point.

Morales is beyond shot.

Even if Morales somehow pulls out an amazing performance out of no where and makes it close. He still wouldn't get credit.

It's lose lose for Marquez at this point.

TintaBoricua
11-16-2011, 05:36 PM
The thing is, Marquez gets no credit for beating him at this point.

Morales is beyond shot.

Even if Morales somehow pulls out an amazing performance out of no where and makes it close. He still wouldn't get credit.

It's lose lose for Marquez at this point.

Precisely. I feel Márquez should only stay for another go against Pacquiao (if he wishes).

I just don't see him with his heart in boxing anymore to be honest.

DeepSleep
11-17-2011, 02:55 AM
Well, Pacquiao might want to fight FLoyd, but Arum won't let it happen. He knows, that his cashcow will lose.

I don't think it hurt it all that much, as the result is pretty similair to the other ones.

My thoughts exactly.

N!GGALAS CAGE
11-17-2011, 03:04 AM
no, as in all their other fights Marquez gave Pacquiao hell. nothing changed, and its not like I bought into the 'Pacquiao has changed so dramatically' BS.

In fact, to me this was Marquez's least impressive performance. I thought he(maruqez) did better in the 2nd fight and deserved the win, while even though I gave him a draw in the first fight he still won more rounds in that fight than the other two, and thats despite his horrible start to the fight.

I did expect Marquez to do worse, but thats mostly because he hasnt looked good in his last outings. He still looked worse than his other two fights against Pacquiao, but performed much better than I expected going into the fight.

On the other end, I thought Pacquiao looked a lot worse than in the first two fights.

People can argue that Marquez won the first two, but Pac really had his moments in both fights. I can't say that about the third one.

All three fights were close, but I think this third fight was the clearest win for Marquez.

New England
11-17-2011, 08:17 AM
The thing is, Marquez gets no credit for beating him at this point.

Morales is beyond shot.

Even if Morales somehow pulls out an amazing performance out of no where and makes it close. He still wouldn't get credit.

It's lose lose for Marquez at this point.



Why? especially with another clock turner. his fight with maidana was one of the best of the year and his health was considered to be at serious risk heading in.

he's coming off of a very tough fight with a true contender at 140 in maidana
he's also got a "world title" after his victory over cano (who, outside of speed not fitting of a 21 year old, was not at all a bad fighter considering it was his first big fight.)
there's an appeal in that sense for the fight to happen. i'm not saying he's the greatest quantity at 135//140, but i am saying that he's a legimate contender now at 140 by virtue of his performance against maidana, and that there's credit to be gained in beating him.

he's certainly faded, but his fighting spirit (the most important attribute lacking in a great shot fighter) is still in tact. the guy loves to fight.
in other words, there is something there to offer. he's faded but he's not completely shot. shot fighters have no hope. morales thinks he can knock his man out and slip all of his punches.

he's also going up against a smaller man (marquez would give up inches in height and reach,)
and he's not going up against a fleet boxer. aging fighters have trouble with guys who use the ring and use handspeed. marquez legs are gone and he's not a move around the ring boxer at this stage anyway. he will be there for morales to hit.

no reason to assume it will be a total blow out. he's going to be in terms of speed and sharpness, but he's been there before. obviously i'll be picking marquez, but i dont see any reason to think it's such a mismatch at this stage that the fight isnt worth seeing.


morales and barerra overshadowed marquez during the begginning portion of his career. he never really went into the mainstream in mexico until they were almost completely out of the picture

according to my sources marquez is now at the top in terms of popular boxers in mexico after his recent fight with pacquiao(edging out canelo and jr, who are true mainstream "celebrities.")

the fight in mexico would be huge huge huge

and of course marquez would hold the distinction of owning victories over barerra, morales, and three fights on an even keel with pacquiao


historically we sometimes see people around here putting too much emphasis on the names of the fighters on a man's resume rather than the quantity they present in the ring. i dont belive morales is an entirely undeserving quantity at this stage, though he's certainly lost more than a step.

the name, however, and adding the distinction of holding victories over morales, barerra, and of course the pacquiao, over time, will greatly enhance his legacy.


in short i think there's plenty to be gained for marquez at this stage in fighting and beating morales
a meaningless belt at 140 perhaps least of all.


and styles make fights
this one will be exciting. if you're a mexican you're frothing at the mouth right now over this.
marquez is going to be landing punches. probably combinations.
and morales will be trying to find a way and we'll have a chance to see him try and pull another great performance out of his hat

Rolaz
11-17-2011, 08:46 AM
Officially, Pacman won the Fight,
Latest News says ESPN put Floydie as their #1PFP and Pacman at #2;
While Ring Mag still put Pacman at #1PFP;

Marquez who lost the fight, can't even outrank Pacman, Mayweather, Martinez and Donaire in the Latest PFP Ranking.

IronDanHamza
11-17-2011, 11:20 AM
Why? especially with another clock turner. his fight with maidana was one of the best of the year and his health was considered to be at serious risk heading in.

he's coming off of a very tough fight with a true contender at 140 in maidana
he's also got a "world title" after his victory over cano (who, outside of speed not fitting of a 21 year old, was not at all a bad fighter considering it was his first big fight.)
there's an appeal in that sense for the fight to happen. i'm not saying he's the greatest quantity at 135//140, but i am saying that he's a legimate contender now at 140 by virtue of his performance against maidana, and that there's credit to be gained in beating him.

he's certainly faded, but his fighting spirit (the most important attribute lacking in a great shot fighter) is still in tact. the guy loves to fight.
in other words, there is something there to offer. he's faded but he's not completely shot. shot fighters have no hope. morales thinks he can knock his man out and slip all of his punches.

he's also going up against a smaller man (marquez would give up inches in height and reach,)
and he's not going up against a fleet boxer. aging fighters have trouble with guys who use the ring and use handspeed. marquez legs are gone and he's not a move around the ring boxer at this stage anyway. he will be there for morales to hit.

no reason to assume it will be a total blow out. he's going to be in terms of speed and sharpness, but he's been there before. obviously i'll be picking marquez, but i dont see any reason to think it's such a mismatch at this stage that the fight isnt worth seeing.


morales and barerra overshadowed marquez during the begginning portion of his career. he never really went into the mainstream in mexico until they were almost completely out of the picture

according to my sources marquez is now at the top in terms of popular boxers in mexico after his recent fight with pacquiao(edging out canelo and jr, who are true mainstream "celebrities.")

the fight in mexico would be huge huge huge

and of course marquez would hold the distinction of owning victories over barerra, morales, and three fights on an even keel with pacquiao


historically we sometimes see people around here putting too much emphasis on the names of the fighters on a man's resume rather than the quantity they present in the ring. i dont belive morales is an entirely undeserving quantity at this stage, though he's certainly lost more than a step.

the name, however, and adding the distinction of holding victories over morales, barerra, and of course the pacquiao, over time, will greatly enhance his legacy.


in short i think there's plenty to be gained for marquez at this stage in fighting and beating morales
a meaningless belt at 140 perhaps least of all.


and styles make fights
this one will be exciting. if you're a mexican you're frothing at the mouth right now over this.
marquez is going to be landing punches. probably combinations.
and morales will be trying to find a way and we'll have a chance to see him try and pull another great performance out of his hat

Because he's shot. He's been shot for like 5 years.

He's not in good shape and he can't really pull the trigger. His skill set alone allowed him to be competitive with a Maidanna that I think took him lightly.

If he beats him, he beats a shot fighter. If he loses, he loses to a shot fighter.

Either one he does the vast majority of people will give him no credit so what's the point in doing it?

IMDAZED
11-17-2011, 11:43 AM
It takes a hit, sure.

BigStereotype
11-17-2011, 12:25 PM
Because he's shot. He's been shot for like 5 years.

He's not in good shape and he can't really pull the trigger. His skill set alone allowed him to be competitive with a Maidanna that I think took him lightly.

If he beats him, he beats a shot fighter. If he loses, he loses to a shot fighter.

Either one he does the vast majority of people will give him no credit so what's the point in doing it?

1. It would be an entertaining fight
2. He can fight for personal satisfaction. He really doesn't have to fight to prove anything anymore.

The Surgeon
11-17-2011, 01:27 PM
1. It would be an entertaining fight
2. He can fight for personal satisfaction. He really doesn't have to fight to prove anything anymore.

Marquez and Morales really dont like each other either, extra motivation and spite is always good for a fight, add the fact they are Mexicans and u got a recipe for Fiiiiiiirrrrreeeeee!!!! :firedevil

Morales is well well past his best and damn near shot so to me it means little historically but the guy is a warrior and still a relevant force in his division, hell he has a belt! Its all about the style match up for me and finishing off the series between these modern warriors (Barrera, Morales, Marquez & Pacquaio)

BigStereotype
11-17-2011, 01:31 PM
Marquez and Morales really dont like each other either, extra motivation and spite is always good for a fight, add the fact they are Mexicans and u got a recipe for Fiiiiiiirrrrreeeeee!!!! :firedevil

Morales is well well past his best and damn near shot so to me it means little historically but the guy is a warrior and still a relevant force in his division, hell he has a belt! Its all about the style match up for me and finishing of the series between these modern warriors (Barrera, Morales, Marquez & Pacquaio)

My thoughts exactly. This is more about personal reasons (and entertaining me) than legit standing in the sport. Anyone who thinks Morales would come into that fight and just get blown out needs to watch some more Morales. Marquez isn't a Pacquiao-like overwhelm you fighter. Even if he beats Morales convincingly, it won't be a 3rd round KO type fight.

$coinblatt$
11-17-2011, 02:02 PM
Because he's shot. He's been shot for like 5 years.

He's not in good shape and he can't really pull the trigger. His skill set alone allowed him to be competitive with a Maidanna that I think took him lightly.

If he beats him, he beats a shot fighter. If he loses, he loses to a shot fighter.

Either one he does the vast majority of people will give him no credit so what's the point in doing it?

exactly, I don't know why all these threads on a fight with Marquez vs. Morales are popping up. This fight would not be competitive at all and Morales would end up getting hurt. Id rather see Marquez take a fight with Bradley before he retires.

BigStereotype
11-17-2011, 02:07 PM
exactly, I don't know why all these threads on a fight with Marquez vs. Morales are popping up. This fight would not be competitive at all and Morales would end up getting hurt. Id rather see Marquez take a fight with Bradley before he retires.

That's what people were saying about Marquez and Pacquiao. Now Morales doesn't have the same kryptonite style, but still.

IronDanHamza
11-17-2011, 02:14 PM
1. It would be an entertaining fight
2. He can fight for personal satisfaction. He really doesn't have to fight to prove anything anymore.

He doesn't have to prove anything. But he could still enhance his legacy.

There's still fights out there.

A legit title at 140. A lot of people out there he could fight to enhance his legacy.

Fighting Morales is worthless, does nothing for his legacy, no matter how the fight goes.

I don't want to see Marquez take waste of time fights like that. That's something Marquez doesn't do and hasn't done for a long time (Other than Ramos)

IronDanHamza
11-17-2011, 02:16 PM
That's what people were saying about Marquez and Pacquiao. Now Morales doesn't have the same kryptonite style, but still.

Marquez hasn't been shot for like, 5 years though.

BigStereotype
11-17-2011, 03:02 PM
Marquez hasn't been shot for like, 5 years though.

Not according to a lot of people who were calling for a TKO 4.

crold1
11-17-2011, 03:05 PM
Morales isn't shot. He's over the hill. Shot fighters can't pull the trigger (a la Mosley these days). Morales can pull the trigger as long as he's not matched with blazing speed. Marquez doesn't have that and has a style that means fight most of the time these days.

Marquez probably wins. There is no way this would suck. This is in no way worthless unless you're a Marquez fan petrified that Morales might sneak one past. His legacy is already made. The circle of fights with these four ain't complete.

I's still viable enough to make it a must and it's as rich as it could ever have been.

I want my Marquez-Morales fight and then I want to see Marquez-Rios. :)

BigStereotype
11-17-2011, 03:08 PM
Morales isn't shot. He's over the hill. Shot fighters can't pull the trigger (a la Mosley these days). Morales can pull the trigger as long as he's not matched with blazing speed. Marquez doesn't have that and has a style that means fight most of the time these days.

Marquez probably wins. There is no way this would suck. This is in no way worthless unless you're a Marquez fan petrified that Morales might sneak one past. His legacy is already made. The circle of fights with these four ain't complete.

I's still viable enough to make it a must and it's as rich as it could ever have been.

I want my Marquez-Morales fight and then I want to see Marquez-Rios. :)

100% genius post right here.

IronDanHamza
11-17-2011, 03:23 PM
Not according to a lot of people who were calling for a TKO 4.

That wasn't because people thought he was shot.

That was more to do with Pacquaio being overrated and the idea that Marquez couldn't perform at WW which he has gone on to disprove.

Marquez certainly isn't prime but he also certainly isn't shot.

And no one ever believed he was.

IronDanHamza
11-17-2011, 03:45 PM
Morales isn't shot. He's over the hill. Shot fighters can't pull the trigger (a la Mosley these days). Morales can pull the trigger as long as he's not matched with blazing speed. Marquez doesn't have that and has a style that means fight most of the time these days.

Marquez probably wins. There is no way this would suck. This is in no way worthless unless you're a Marquez fan petrified that Morales might sneak one past. His legacy is already made. The circle of fights with these four ain't complete.

I's still viable enough to make it a must and it's as rich as it could ever have been.

I want my Marquez-Morales fight and then I want to see Marquez-Rios. :)

Morales hasn't won a legit fight in 6 years.

He did better than we all expected against Maidana, and that was great.

He also possibly deserved the Decision against David Diaz, but let's face it, he wasn't great. That's David Diaz, a fighter who is frankly not very good. And even that was 4 year ago.

Other than those two he has fought entirely less than average fighters.

Morales is a natural Super Bantam who makes 140 by literally adding body fat. He's in no shape to be fighting, like I said, the fact he not only survived Maidana but actually gave a good showing is just a testment to is greatness an skill set.

I'm not sure if that Marquez comment is aimed at me. But Erik Morales is one of my favourite fighters of the past 20 years and in fact of all time. So that's invalid.

And the fight's worthless, he gets no credit for beating a shot, flabby Erik Morales who hasn't won a legit fight in 6 years. No one does.

I'd love a Rios fight. I'd love him to win a legit belt at 140. There's plenty of fights out there for Marquez that will enhance his legacy.

RubenSonny
11-17-2011, 07:03 PM
Morales hasn't won a legit fight in 6 years.

He did better than we all expected against Maidana, and that was great.

He also possibly deserved the Decision against David Diaz, but let's face it, he wasn't great. That's David Diaz, a fighter who is frankly not very good. And even that was 4 year ago.

Other than those two he has fought entirely less than average fighters.

Morales is a natural Super Bantam who makes 140 by literally adding body fat. He's in no shape to be fighting, like I said, the fact he not only survived Maidana but actually gave a good showing is just a testment to is greatness an skill set.

I'm not sure if that Marquez comment is aimed at me. But Erik Morales is one of my favourite fighters of the past 20 years and in fact of all time. So that's invalid.

And the fight's worthless, he gets no credit for beating a shot, flabby Erik Morales who hasn't won a legit fight in 6 years. No one does.

I'd love a Rios fight. I'd love him to win a legit belt at 140. There's plenty of fights out there for Marquez that will enhance his legacy.

Not to mention it can be argued that Shot Shot Corley gave a better showing (I actually thought Corley deserved it).

mercado64
11-17-2011, 07:43 PM
I do believe it hurt Manny Pacquiao... Mayweather was ranked #2 based on how Good Pacman did vs. the same opponents. Mayweather wiped the floor with Marquez... so.... Yes, he is now P4P #1 in my book

mercado64
11-17-2011, 07:44 PM
I dont think Pacquiao is overrated...

mercado64
11-17-2011, 07:44 PM
Marquez defeats Morales at this point in my humble opinion..

New England
11-17-2011, 07:47 PM
Morales isn't shot. He's over the hill. Shot fighters can't pull the trigger (a la Mosley these days). Morales can pull the trigger as long as he's not matched with blazing speed. Marquez doesn't have that and has a style that means fight most of the time these days.

Marquez probably wins. There is no way this would suck. This is in no way worthless unless you're a Marquez fan petrified that Morales might sneak one past. His legacy is already made. The circle of fights with these four ain't complete.

I's still viable enough to make it a must and it's as rich as it could ever have been.

I want my Marquez-Morales fight and then I want to see Marquez-Rios. :)



yes yes and yes

rios and marquez would be brutish.



cliff to my eyes marquez looked night and day different from his last run at WW

what do you think of angel heredia/hernandez?

New England
11-17-2011, 08:08 PM
Because he's shot. He's been shot for like 5 years.

He's not in good shape and he can't really pull the trigger. His skill set alone allowed him to be competitive with a Maidanna that I think took him lightly.

If he beats him, he beats a shot fighter. If he loses, he loses to a shot fighter.

Either one he does the vast majority of people will give him no credit so what's the point in doing it?


we either differ on our opinions of how much morales has deteriorated or what constitutes a shot fighter. it takes him a couple rounds to shake the rust off but he's still got a bit left to offer.


he will have a win over erik morales, for whatever that is worth. we'll have to see how the fight turns out. some will give him more credit than others.
morales is coming off of decent performances, even if cano is young and not world class and chino wasnt in top form.

and the fight would be huge in mexico, and i'd also guess it would factor in more greatly in the boxing folklore over there because of their love for el terrible and their belief in him.

i think it's very much a significant fight, even with deterioration of morales relative to marquez
and i do think it would be a terrific fight. morales wont go quietly. he doesnt have to worry about somebody who is blindingly fast, or uses the ring, or pushes very hard pace (although marquez has been setting his feet and throwing combinations more lately as his legs age)

personally i'd contemplate risking it and heading to mexico.

somebody more familiar with the area would have a better idea, but i'm pretty confident those two could juice one of those 50+ k seat bull rings.

are they friends?
i know el terrible is from the ghetto in el zona norte and marquez is educated (accounting) and from a decent area
this would no doubt be a massive cultural event in mexico.

big like canelo-chavez i'd guess, but i'm really no expert on the area.

Scott9945
11-17-2011, 08:40 PM
Morales hasn't won a legit fight in 6 years.

He did better than we all expected against Maidana, and that was great.

He also possibly deserved the Decision against David Diaz, but let's face it, he wasn't great. That's David Diaz, a fighter who is frankly not very good. And even that was 4 year ago.

Other than those two he has fought entirely less than average fighters.

Morales is a natural Super Bantam who makes 140 by literally adding body fat. He's in no shape to be fighting, like I said, the fact he not only survived Maidana but actually gave a good showing is just a testment to is greatness an skill set.

I'm not sure if that Marquez comment is aimed at me. But Erik Morales is one of my favourite fighters of the past 20 years and in fact of all time. So that's invalid.

And the fight's worthless, he gets no credit for beating a shot, flabby Erik Morales who hasn't won a legit fight in 6 years. No one does.

I'd love a Rios fight. I'd love him to win a legit belt at 140. There's plenty of fights out there for Marquez that will enhance his legacy.

No way Morales is a natural superbantam. Ten years ago I was at a weigh in for a card that EM was defending his featherweight title on. He looked emaciated. He had been shrinking himself to make weight for years. Morales doesn't have a chisled body at 140, but he still has a reasonablyt good workrate and can easily go the distance.

IronDanHamza
11-17-2011, 08:47 PM
we either differ on our opinions of how much morales has deteriorated or what constitutes a shot fighter. it takes him a couple rounds to shake the rust off but he's still got a bit left to offer.


he will have a win over erik morales, for whatever that is worth. we'll have to see how the fight turns out. some will give him more credit than others.
morales is coming off of decent performances, even if cano is young and not world class and chino wasnt in top form.

and the fight would be huge in mexico, and i'd also guess it would factor in more greatly in the boxing folklore over there because of their love for el terrible and their belief in him.

i think it's very much a significant fight, even with deterioration of morales relative to marquez
and i do think it would be a terrific fight. morales wont go quietly. he doesnt have to worry about somebody who is blindingly fast, or uses the ring, or pushes very hard pace (although marquez has been setting his feet and throwing combinations more lately as his legs age)

personally i'd contemplate risking it and heading to mexico.

somebody more familiar with the area would have a better idea, but i'm pretty confident those two could juice one of those 50+ k seat bull rings.

are they friends?
i know el terrible is from the ghetto in el zona norte and marquez is educated (accounting) and from a decent area
this would no doubt be a massive cultural event in mexico.

big like canelo-chavez i'd guess, but i'm really no expert on the area.

Morales is not only blatently shot from what the eye can see but he hasn't won a legit fight in 6 years. He hasn't shown the ability to be able to fight 12 rounds without getting tired against legit opposition in 6 years.

The only reason he foughts at 40 is because he's literally out of shape.

He has nothing left to offer. He's probably the oldest 35 year old in Boxing.

Having Erik Morales on your resume at this point is like Berbick having Ali on his record of Mcbride having Mike Tyson or Mclarnin having Leonard. It's worthless.

It doesn't even matter if Morales manages to make it close, all that means is Marquez struggled with a shot fighter.

The fight would be huge of course but that doesn't really matter. Still wouldn't change the fact it's a waste of time fight.

IronDanHamza
11-17-2011, 08:54 PM
No way Morales is a natural superbantam. Ten years ago I was at a weigh in for a card that EM was defending his featherweight title on. He looked emaciated. He had been shrinking himself to make weight for years. Morales doesn't have a chisled body at 140, but he still has a reasonablyt good workrate and can easily go the distance.


Whether he's a natural Super Bantam or not, he was certainly a small Lightweight. And he's certainly not built for the Jr Welterweight division.

As well as being shot to pieces without a legit win in like 6 years.

I'd rather Marquez fight someone legit.

New England
11-17-2011, 08:58 PM
Morales is not only blatently shot from what the eye can see but he hasn't won a legit fight in 6 years. He hasn't shown the ability to be able to fight 12 rounds without getting tired against legit opposition in 6 years.

The only reason he foughts at 40 is because he's literally out of shape.

He has nothing left to offer. He's probably the oldest 35 year old in Boxing.

Having Erik Morales on your resume at this point is like Berbick having Ali on his record of Mcbride having Mike Tyson or Mclarnin having Leonard. It's worthless.

It doesn't even matter if Morales manages to make it close, all that means is Marquez struggled with a shot fighter.

The fight would be huge of course but that doesn't really matter. Still wouldn't change the fact it's a waste of time fight.


we'll have to agree disagree because i couldn't disagree more. i think this is an important win any way you look at it, even if its winner would have been a better indicator of superiority many years ago.
i dont have a time machine. it's a lot better than not seeing them fight in my eyes.

and morales and marquez basically the same size. if anything morales is naturally the larger man.
he's taller and longer in the reach.

crold1
11-17-2011, 09:08 PM
yes yes and yes

rios and marquez would be brutish.



cliff to my eyes marquez looked night and day different from his last run at WW

what do you think of angel heredia/hernandez?

He looked different because he was fighting Pac instead of May. Switch foes and he'd have looked great in 09 and ass last week. Against May, Marquez had to press which he isn't the best at. He's rarely looked very good against fellow counterpunchers. I don't think heredia had anything to do with it. I think the world ignored that Marquez looked good after May and hadn't shown any significant slip and that he and Pac, at 144, were still basically the same size in ring they were in 2008 (same day weigh ins and all).

Everyone who thought Marquez couldn't still give Pac hell was just wrong.

IronDanHamza
11-17-2011, 09:15 PM
we'll have to agree disagree because i couldn't disagree more. i think this is an important win any way you look at it, even if its winner would have been a better indicator of superiority many years ago.
i dont have a time machine. it's a lot better than not seeing them fight in my eyes.

and morales and marquez basically the same size. if anything morales is naturally the larger man.
he's taller and longer in the reach.

Oh, size has nothing to do with why it's a sh*t fight.

It's a **** fight because Morales is shot and hasn't won a legit fight in literally years.

It's because despite performing reasonably well agasint decent opposition like Maidana and David Diaz, he's still clearly done. And only able to look decent in those fights because of his ATG ability and skills.

Size, has nothing to do with it. Morales being a sh*t shape does, though.

If Morales wasn't shot or we turned the clock back 10 years then I'd love to see it.

Now, however, it's worthess and does nothing for Marquez where as he could fight a list of legit fighters and legit champions at 140 and enhance his legacy. Hell, he might even be able to grab a paper title at 147.

I'll pass on a shot legend.

New England
11-17-2011, 09:21 PM
He looked different because he was fighting Pac instead of May. Switch foes and he'd have looked great in 09 and ass last week. Against May, Marquez had to press which he isn't the best at. He's rarely looked very good against fellow counterpunchers. I don't think heredia had anything to do with it. I think the world ignored that Marquez looked good after May and hadn't shown any significant slip and that he and Pac, at 144, were still basically the same size in ring they were in 2008 (same day weigh ins and all).

Everyone who thought Marquez couldn't still give Pac hell was just wrong.


obviously fighting a 5'8" ww with six feet of reach who happens to be floyd maweather had something to do with it but in purely physical terms i saw a huge difference, whether heredia had something to do with it or otherwise.

i think the marquez that fought mayweather in '09 would have had a rough go with the manny he fought on saturday. i'm not saying it was all heredia (or implying drug use,) but the body he brought in was certainly more suited for the weight and task at hand on saturday than it was in '09.


also, no piss drinking.

RubenSonny
11-18-2011, 06:01 AM
:pat: Morales has been shot for a long long time.

New England
11-18-2011, 09:00 AM
:pat: Morales has been shot for a long long time.

lol.
tell that to chino:FlagCanad. physically he's far beyond his best days, i'll give you that.

but once his joints stop creaking and he/his opponent blasts the rust off he's still got that look in his eyes (when they arent swollen shut or cut so badly you cant see them re: cano fight.)


we certainly have differing stances on what makes a fighter shot, which is absolutely fine


i also think he's training as hard as he can at his age and looks decent physically considering he was almost 200 lbs during his retirement on an unrelated note to address other posts. he could perhaps make LW with the right diet and training, but no less than that. he's not a tiny guy.

marquez isnt a seek an destroy type, even though he has destroyed some at LW.
he generally does it going backwards/counterpunching until an opportunity presents itself in the form of his man tiring or getting hurt, or just showing him all of what he's got, allowing himself to get figured out.

in fact, i'll venture that the styles favor morales more than they did katsidis

not so much with diaz, who had some subleties to his game and some decent footspeed/handspeed and a colossal workrate


i really dont think marquez will simply overwhelm morales
i just cant see it happening for more than a couple rounds before el terrible ends up at least making a memorable fight out of it

to be clear, i dont think morales will win. i'd say he's at least as big of a dog as marquez was against pacquiao recently (about 10/1)

i'm saying given the magnitude of the spectacle, the event, and a fight i believe has the potential to be suprisingly exciting and competative enough given the nature of marquez style, i'd be looking forward a great deal to the fight and would even buy it on PPV. put some exciting fights on the undercard and i'd be all over it.

and i dont buy ppv idly anymore with the garbage they put on


i would not want to see morales against a young guy with some skills and some hand and foot speed
khan, bradley, floyd (floyds certainly not young, but he'd still walk morales down and eventually start throwing combinations) have all been tossed around as names either in real talks or in forum // boxing conjecture

i think they all stop him
especially khan. that would be awful.

IronDanHamza
11-18-2011, 05:02 PM
lol.
tell that to chino:FlagCanad. physically he's far beyond his best days, i'll give you that.

but once his joints stop creaking and he/his opponent blasts the rust off he's still got that look in his eyes (when they arent swollen shut or cut so badly you cant see them re: cano fight.)


we certainly have differing stances on what makes a fighter shot, which is absolutely fine


i also think he's training as hard as he can at his age and looks decent physically considering he was almost 200 lbs during his retirement on an unrelated note to address other posts. he could perhaps make LW with the right diet and training, but no less than that. he's not a tiny guy.

marquez isnt a seek an destroy type, even though he has destroyed some at LW.
he generally does it going backwards/counterpunching until an opportunity presents itself in the form of his man tiring or getting hurt, or just showing him all of what he's got, allowing himself to get figured out.

in fact, i'll venture that the styles favor morales more than they did katsidis

not so much with diaz, who had some subleties to his game and some decent footspeed/handspeed and a colossal workrate


i really dont think marquez will simply overwhelm morales
i just cant see it happening for more than a couple rounds before el terrible ends up at least making a memorable fight out of it

to be clear, i dont think morales will win. i'd say he's at least as big of a dog as marquez was against pacquiao recently (about 10/1)

i'm saying given the magnitude of the spectacle, the event, and a fight i believe has the potential to be suprisingly exciting and competative enough given the nature of marquez style, i'd be looking forward a great deal to the fight and would even buy it on PPV. put some exciting fights on the undercard and i'd be all over it.

and i dont buy ppv idly anymore with the garbage they put on


i would not want to see morales against a young guy with some skills and some hand and foot speed
khan, bradley, floyd (floyds certainly not young, but he'd still walk morales down and eventually start throwing combinations) have all been tossed around as names either in real talks or in forum // boxing conjecture

i think they all stop him
especially khan. that would be awful.

He looks a state physically.

From Limond, all the way to Cano.

bojangles1987
11-18-2011, 07:56 PM
lol.
tell that to chino:FlagCanad. physically he's far beyond his best days, i'll give you that.

but once his joints stop creaking and he/his opponent blasts the rust off he's still got that look in his eyes (when they arent swollen shut or cut so badly you cant see them re: cano fight.)


we certainly have differing stances on what makes a fighter shot, which is absolutely fine


i also think he's training as hard as he can at his age and looks decent physically considering he was almost 200 lbs during his retirement on an unrelated note to address other posts. he could perhaps make LW with the right diet and training, but no less than that. he's not a tiny guy.

marquez isnt a seek an destroy type, even though he has destroyed some at LW.
he generally does it going backwards/counterpunching until an opportunity presents itself in the form of his man tiring or getting hurt, or just showing him all of what he's got, allowing himself to get figured out.

in fact, i'll venture that the styles favor morales more than they did katsidis

not so much with diaz, who had some subleties to his game and some decent footspeed/handspeed and a colossal workrate


i really dont think marquez will simply overwhelm morales
i just cant see it happening for more than a couple rounds before el terrible ends up at least making a memorable fight out of it

to be clear, i dont think morales will win. i'd say he's at least as big of a dog as marquez was against pacquiao recently (about 10/1)

i'm saying given the magnitude of the spectacle, the event, and a fight i believe has the potential to be suprisingly exciting and competative enough given the nature of marquez style, i'd be looking forward a great deal to the fight and would even buy it on PPV. put some exciting fights on the undercard and i'd be all over it.

and i dont buy ppv idly anymore with the garbage they put on


i would not want to see morales against a young guy with some skills and some hand and foot speed
khan, bradley, floyd (floyds certainly not young, but he'd still walk morales down and eventually start throwing combinations) have all been tossed around as names either in real talks or in forum // boxing conjecture

i think they all stop him
especially khan. that would be awful.

I would not be the least bit surprised to see Morales, even now, beat Marquez at 140. It would come down to two smart boxers, and I'm not counting Morales out in that type of fight.

New England
11-18-2011, 08:01 PM
I would not be the least bit surprised to see Morales, even now, beat Marquez at 140. It would come down to two smart boxers, and I'm not counting Morales out in that type of fight.



whatever the case he's not going quietly into the night

IronDanHamza
11-18-2011, 08:48 PM
whatever the case he's not going quietly into the night

I don't understand why that matters.

Of course he's not going to go out quietly, of course he will try to win.

He's a proven and undisputied warrior. If he fought Pacquaio for a 4th time he wouldn't go out quietly. Hell, if he fought Sergio Martinez at some f*cked up catch weight he wouldn't go out quietly.

It still doesn't change the fact that beating Erik Morales at this point is worthless and a waste of time. No matter how the fight goes, whether it's a Round 1 KO, 12-0 Shut out or a brutal war.

I mean, I'll watch the fight. And I may even enjoy it. That's all up for debate.

What's not up for debate, is Erik Morales hasn't been relevant or won a legit fight in 6 years. After his layoff he has fought almost entirely bums and the only decent fighter he's fought (Who couldn't hold Marquez' jock strap, mind you) he lost. He suprised and looked better than we fought, but he lost.

Marquez is at the tale end of his career and there's fight's out there that will enhance his legacy.

Other than Mayweather and possibly Amir Khan I would pick him over pretty much everyone at 140 and actually msot at 147 aswell.

I don't know why he or anyone would want him to waste his time in a fight with a shot to sh*t, out of shape Erik Morales.

crold1
11-18-2011, 09:11 PM
I don't understand why that matters.

Of course he's not going to go out quietly, of course he will try to win.

He's a proven and undisputied warrior. If he fought Pacquaio for a 4th time he wouldn't go out quietly. Hell, if he fought Sergio Martinez at some f*cked up catch weight he wouldn't go out quietly.

It still doesn't change the fact that beating Erik Morales at this point is worthless and a waste of time. No matter how the fight goes, whether it's a Round 1 KO, 12-0 Shut out or a brutal war.

I mean, I'll watch the fight. And I may even enjoy it. That's all up for debate.

What's not up for debate, is Erik Morales hasn't been relevant or won a legit fight in 6 years. After his layoff he has fought almost entirely bums and the only decent fighter he's fought (Who couldn't hold Marquez' jock strap, mind you) he lost. He suprised and looked better than we fought, but he lost.

Marquez is at the tale end of his career and there's fight's out there that will enhance his legacy.

Other than Mayweather and possibly Amir Khan I would pick him over pretty much everyone at 140 and actually msot at 147 aswell.

I don't know why he or anyone would want him to waste his time in a fight with a shot to sh*t, out of shape Erik Morales.

Because Morales can still fight some and it's Marquez-Morales.

That's it.

That's all it needs to be.

New England
11-18-2011, 09:24 PM
I don't understand why that matters.

Of course he's not going to go out quietly, of course he will try to win.

He's a proven and undisputied warrior. If he fought Pacquaio for a 4th time he wouldn't go out quietly. Hell, if he fought Sergio Martinez at some f*cked up catch weight he wouldn't go out quietly.

It still doesn't change the fact that beating Erik Morales at this point is worthless and a waste of time. No matter how the fight goes, whether it's a Round 1 KO, 12-0 Shut out or a brutal war.

I mean, I'll watch the fight. And I may even enjoy it. That's all up for debate.

What's not up for debate, is Erik Morales hasn't been relevant or won a legit fight in 6 years. After his layoff he has fought almost entirely bums and the only decent fighter he's fought (Who couldn't hold Marquez' jock strap, mind you) he lost. He suprised and looked better than we fought, but he lost.

Marquez is at the tale end of his career and there's fight's out there that will enhance his legacy.

Other than Mayweather and possibly Amir Khan I would pick him over pretty much everyone at 140 and actually msot at 147 aswell.

I don't know why he or anyone would want him to waste his time in a fight with a shot to sh*t, out of shape Erik Morales.

on the bold:
i dont understand that at all, especially if the fight ends up being a war (which i dont think it will be. i think there will be drama and that it will be a spectacle.)

a close decision loss to marcos maidana was enough to get him into the top ten at jr WW


outside of beating manny pacquiao, i doubt very much that marquez cares about his legacy, at least in terms of pleasing hardcore boxing fans with esoteric choices of opponent (khan, bradley, maidana, etc)
they are high risk and low reward.

sure, it would be nice, but there really isnt a demand for it.
you might see rios get marquez if arum thinks he can build rios with a W and look to cash out on marquez

he's looking for big pay days. morales has that green belt at 140(again, not passing judgement, but this is how boxing works and you surely get that,) and he's erik el terrible friggin morales.

khan would outpoint marquez as easily as mayweather, especially at WW, and even he doesnt have the type of draw to warrant the risk

i'd also pick bradley to beat him and say it was an even fight with rios



also, thinking about the fight, i just cant see marquez simply blowing him out and making it seem like the fight shouldnt be happening
perhaps i'm wrong, man.
it wouldnt be the first time and it wont be last

if it happens we can look back on it and boast about who is right

IronDanHamza
11-18-2011, 10:19 PM
on the bold:
i dont understand that at all, especially if the fight ends up being a war (which i dont think it will be. i think there will be drama and that it will be a spectacle.)

a close decision loss to marcos maidana was enough to get him into the top ten at jr WW


outside of beating manny pacquiao, i doubt very much that marquez cares about his legacy, at least in terms of pleasing hardcore boxing fans with esoteric choices of opponent (khan, bradley, maidana, etc)
they are high risk and low reward.

sure, it would be nice, but there really isnt a demand for it.
you might see rios get marquez if arum thinks he can build rios with a W and look to cash out on marquez

he's looking for big pay days. morales has that green belt at 140(again, not passing judgement, but this is how boxing works and you surely get that,) and he's erik el terrible friggin morales.

khan would outpoint marquez as easily as mayweather, especially at WW, and even he doesnt have the type of draw to warrant the risk

i'd also pick bradley to beat him and say it was an even fight with rios



also, thinking about the fight, i just cant see marquez simply blowing him out and making it seem like the fight shouldnt be happening
perhaps i'm wrong, man.
it wouldnt be the first time and it wont be last

if it happens we can look back on it and boast about who is right

It means that whether it's a war, a boring decision or a first round KO it doesn't cancel out the fact Morales is done.

I would bet Marquez cares a lot about his legacy.

And it's not about being right or wrong like I said in my other posts I'm not aruging how the fight will go. Despite thinking Marquez will beat him with ease that's not what I'm saying or responding to.

I'm saying that Marquez fighting Morales at this stage does nothing for him and I'd much rather he take fights out there that do. Becaue there's plenty of them.

IronDanHamza
11-18-2011, 10:24 PM
Because Morales can still fight some and it's Marquez-Morales.

That's it.

That's all it needs to be.

Can he?

Well, not on the elite level he can't.

He didn't even look too great against Canto, to be honest.

And name value is just stupid. I hate when name value is used to justify a pointless fight.

Hell, we may aswell make Barrera-Marquez 2 while we're at it.

Bring Chavez and Olivares out of retirement and fight 3 bums each and make it a Five Kings special.

Chavez and Olivares have a combined age of 856 but who cares it's Marquez-Chavez.

RubenSonny
11-18-2011, 10:35 PM
lol.
tell that to chino:FlagCanad. physically he's far beyond his best days, i'll give you that.

An absolutely shot to **** Demarcus Corley arguably deserved to win against Chino the fraud.

crold1
11-18-2011, 10:39 PM
Can he?

Well, not on the elite level he can't.

He didn't even look too great against Canto, to be honest.

And name value is just stupid. I hate when name value is used to justify a pointless fight.

Hell, we may aswell make Barrera-Marquez 2 while we're at it.

Bring Chavez and Olivares out of retirement and fight 3 bums each and make it a Five Kings special.

Chavez and Olivares have a combined age of 856 but who cares it's Marquez-Chavez.

If Chavez and Olivares were significant parts of the same era you might have a point. It's not about name value. It's about a chance to see Marquez and Morales in the same ring while there is still even the small chance they could give us something special. The Maidana fight, loss or no, told me that chance still exists for them to deliver a crowd pleaser.

RubenSonny
11-19-2011, 07:09 AM
If Chavez and Olivares were significant parts of the same era you might have a point. It's not about name value. It's about a chance to see Marquez and Morales in the same ring while there is still even the small chance they could give us something special. The Maidana fight, loss or no, told me that chance still exists for them to deliver a crowd pleaser.

It would be a meaningless victory for Marquez in terms of legacy (assuming he won).

New England
11-19-2011, 07:57 AM
An absolutely shot to **** Demarcus Corley arguably deserved to win against Chino the fraud.

maidana didnt look terrific in that fight but chop chop does have a boatload of experience and knows how to take power away.

and chop chop looked pretty cagey in that fight considering his state. the guy has tons of tricks.

against mathysse he just kept taking a knee and was talking about retirement and his shoe company leading up to the fight in all the interviews he did leading up to the fight. mathysse is also a fluid combination puncher with decent feet who would always have an easier time landing on a slick southpaw like corely.


and i diddnt think the decision was close, but that's certainly fine with me if you did.
maidana just gassed out and made it more competative than it should have been, but i didnt think corely won the majority of rounds, nevermind make up for getting dropped. it was his first fight back at home since he got rich. who knows what he was up to down there.


and fraudulent or not (and i think chino maidana is exactly as advertised. nobody is calling him a terrific boxer,) he was able to almost stop amir khan to the point where the refereeing of cortez was called into question, and the BWAA called it the fight of the year i believe.
he's also in the top 5 of the division and has been for years now.
and he's got a knockout W over cayo (very decent fighter with talent and solid skills) and one over ortiz (another decent fighter)

he's a contender any way you slice it, by virtue of his accomplishments. not seeing the fraud.

New England
11-19-2011, 08:27 AM
It means that whether it's a war, a boring decision or a first round KO it doesn't cancel out the fact Morales is done.

I would bet Marquez cares a lot about his legacy.

And it's not about being right or wrong like I said in my other posts I'm not aruging how the fight will go. Despite thinking Marquez will beat him with ease that's not what I'm saying or responding to.

I'm saying that Marquez fighting Morales at this stage does nothing for him and I'd much rather he take fights out there that do. Becaue there's plenty of them.


if he takes the guy who just beat manny pacquiao to war you'll still call him done?


we really do differ on what constitutes a done fighter, which is fine.

im basing my stance on his most recent comeback fights and training camps, which have been fairly well documented. he still looks good in sparring after he blasts the rust away. he can still find a way to win and is always looking for it. he's in shape and training hard. he can still take a punch and fire back with stuff hard enough to get respect. not at his best, but not a shot fighter.



and lets go through the fights if you like
very few of them seem appropriate for his last fight//couple of fights (considering the pay grade he'd be looking for most importantly, as that's what you look to do after a fight like his whatever you want to call it over pacquiao. you look to get paid.)

tim bradley cant sell out his basement. no way he takes that fight. what a bad decision that would be. fire your manager if he ever suggests a fight like that.
khan would starch marquez and works for GBP anyway
floyd folded him like laundry already
peterson?
mathysse?
ortiz?
berto?

solid fighters, and maybe better "legacy builders" than morales at this stage, but they will never happen. and in 50 years nobody will remember most of those names outside of floyd.


rios might happen, and i agree, it does more for his legacy for the hardcore boxing people if he wins, but thats not what this is all about and i can tell you from experience with professional fighters that most of them dont have that high on their list of priorities. they want to get paid. risk against reward. high risk is fine. give me high reward.
you can bet bob arum doesnt give a truck about it (legacy,) and he's the guy making these fights. and i'm guessing marquez isnt looking to take a couple of zero's off his check to fight a young prime "lightweight" that would easily have ten lbs on him in the ring, and would be cutting down on weight to get there while marquez is eating three square meals a day.


whether we agree with them or not the alphabet belts do hold water in boxing. they sell tickets. fighters seek them out. promotors really seek them out. they make an event easier to push on people.
marquez would have an opportunity to win one at 140,
and more importantly he could defend it


we clearly differ on the enhancement of legacies and the appropriateness of its pursuit for an active fighter, and the constitution of a shot fighter.
even now, a W over morales will enhance his legacy. it's better than not having one. especially in 50 years.
i'll say it again, this place wouldnt be any fun if everybody agreed with one another


this is one of the reasons i find issue with the word "legacy" being bandied about for an active fighter.

legacies need time and context to be evaluated.
we dont have either talking about an active fighter.


hell, manny pacquiao could lose his next five fights and end up on ESPN. outside of a name what is he//a win over him then?

RubenSonny
11-19-2011, 10:27 AM
maidana didnt look terrific in that fight but chop chop does have a boatload of experience and knows how to take power away.

and chop chop looked pretty cagey in that fight considering his state. the guy has tons of tricks.

The bottom line is that Corley was shot to ****.

against mathysse he just kept taking a knee and was talking about retirement and his shoe company leading up to the fight in all the interviews he did leading up to the fight. mathysse is also a fluid combination puncher with decent feet who would always have an easier time landing on a slick southpaw like corely.

Yeah and he was shot before Maidana.

and i diddnt think the decision was close, but that's certainly fine with me if you did.

It really was, Corley won 6 rounds at the very minimum.

maidana just gassed out and made it more competative than it should have been, but i didnt think corely won the majority of rounds, nevermind make up for getting dropped. it was his first fight back at home since he got rich. who knows what he was up to down there.

No excuse for looking like that against a shot fighter and he was losing rounds in the first half of that fight.

and fraudulent or not (and i think chino maidana is exactly as advertised. nobody is calling him a terrific boxer,) he was able to almost stop amir khan to the point where the refereeing of cortez was called into question, and the BWAA called it the fight of the year i believe.

Yeah he just showed that Khan is overrated, but other than that round and a few other moments he was being hit with a boat load of punches.

he's also in the top 5 of the division and has been for years now.
and he's got a knockout W over cayo (very decent fighter with talent and solid skills) and one over ortiz (another decent fighter)


Mainly because its a weak division, outside of those 2 wins, his winning record consists of absolute bums.

he's a contender any way you slice it, by virtue of his accomplishments. not seeing the fraud.

He built a record up by feasting on bums and since becoming a contender he has took on 2 absolutely shot fighters and looked horrible against them. He also ducked Timothy Bradley.

crold1
11-19-2011, 10:53 AM
Given the quality of fights he's been in for the most part since Kotelnik (and that was pretty good too), it's absolutely ridiculous to call Maidana a fraud. Flawed? Sure. Whatever. Boxing needs a dozen Maidana's. And 140 is a weak division now?

Um, ok.

BigStereotype
11-19-2011, 01:04 PM
Given the quality of fights he's been in for the most part since Kotelnik (and that was pretty good too), it's absolutely ridiculous to call Maidana a fraud. Flawed? Sure. Whatever. Boxing needs a dozen Maidana's. And 140 is a weak division now?

Um, ok.

Gotta agree. Calling Maidana a fraud is silly. Who thinks of him as some p4p beast with slick skills? He's just a dude who can punch a hole in a bank vault and people like to see that. He's got some good wins, could have gotten the draw against Khan...he's a good fighter. Just not a great fighter and he has an exploitable style. But he's not a guy that anybody this side of Aaron Pryor wants to go toe-to-toe with and Morales eating his shots like candy says something major about the condition of his chin.

Bottom line, Marquez vs. Morales would be an entertaining, ticket-selling, personally gratifying fight. So what if it doesn't improve his "legacy" to us. Like I've said, Marquez doesn't have anything to prove anymore, not to himself and certainly not to us. There are other fights he can take, but my boy NE already pointed out why those would be folly. I'd like to see him fight Morales, beat Rios and knockout Khan, then retire.

RubenSonny
11-19-2011, 01:31 PM
Given the quality of fights he's been in for the most part since Kotelnik (and that was pretty good too), it's absolutely ridiculous to call Maidana a fraud. Flawed? Sure. Whatever. Boxing needs a dozen Maidana's. And 140 is a weak division now?

Um, ok.

Yes he's a fraud, anyone that take fights against shot fighters and looks awful while doing it is a fraud especially considering that the Corley fight could've went either way. You won't touch on that though, nor his obvious duck of Bradley. Trying to sell Marquez-Morales as some legitimate fight is ridiculous. Also 140 is a weak division like most divisions today.

RubenSonny
11-19-2011, 01:33 PM
Gotta agree. Calling Maidana a fraud is silly. Who thinks of him as some p4p beast with slick skills? He's just a dude who can punch a hole in a bank vault and people like to see that. He's got some good wins, could have gotten the draw against Khan...he's a good fighter. Just not a great fighter and he has an exploitable style. But he's not a guy that anybody this side of Aaron Pryor wants to go toe-to-toe with and Morales eating his shots like candy says something major about the condition of his chin.

Bottom line, Marquez vs. Morales would be an entertaining, ticket-selling, personally gratifying fight. So what if it doesn't improve his "legacy" to us. Like I've said, Marquez doesn't have anything to prove anymore, not to himself and certainly not to us. There are other fights he can take, but my boy NE already pointed out why those would be folly. I'd like to see him fight Morales, beat Rios and knockout Khan, then retire.

Yet he can't knock out shot fighters, hmmmm okay.

IronDanHamza
11-19-2011, 01:39 PM
Yet he can't knock out shot fighters, hmmmm okay.

He can certainly punch but I think his power is overrated.

It's either that or he's just a really bad finisher. Or maybe both.

How he didn't get Khan out of there I will never know. Or alteast knock him down.

crold1
11-19-2011, 01:48 PM
Yes he's a fraud, anyone that take fights against shot fighters and looks awful while doing it is a fraud especially considering that the Corley fight could've went either way. You won't touch on that though, nor his obvious duck of Bradley. Trying to sell Marquez-Morales as some legitimate fight is ridiculous. Also 140 is a weak division like most divisions today.

I'll touch on it. He showed up half assing against a vet. Big deal. Happens sometimes. Hell, Mayweather still credits Augustus as his toughest go; never know where a tough night will come from. And Bradley ducked the guy the 'fraud' went to hell and back and with...everyone ducks someone I guess. Dude shows up, puts on great shows, and gives fans their money's worth.

Nothing fraudulent about that.

The Surgeon
11-19-2011, 03:16 PM
I'll touch on it. He showed up half assing against a vet. Big deal. Happens sometimes. Hell, Mayweather still credits Augustus as his toughest go; never know where a tough night will come from. And Bradley ducked the guy the 'fraud' went to hell and back and with...everyone ducks someone I guess. Dude shows up, puts on great shows, and gives fans their money's worth.

Nothing fraudulent about that.

Maidana is Crud. No talent. But he is no fraud i agree, the guy is strong, heavy handed, full of heart and as tough as they come - dude brings it

New England
11-19-2011, 06:03 PM
He can certainly punch but I think his power is overrated.

It's either that or he's just a really bad finisher. Or maybe both.

How he didn't get Khan out of there I will never know. Or alteast knock him down.

joe cortez. not saying khan wouldn't have survived the round with another ref, i'm saying he had a huge impact on the fight.

khan wasnt able to tie him up. at least not both hands to the point where you feel compelled as a ref to break the fighters when one is badly hurt.
cortez kept chastising him, telling him to "fight clean" whatever the hell that means.
unprofessional

if you can keep your hands free you have to be allowed to punch in that situation. though it gets lost in the blunders of cortez some, it's one of his worst in my eyes. the guy has had some high profile biffs. i think we are done seeing him in big fights.

there were plenty of flaws in maidana's game that were showing up, but i do believe cortez had an profound effect on the 10th round.
khan also has a ton of heart and has benefitted from getting hit hard at the wildcard evidently.

he's by no stretch a "bad" finisher. i think you guys are getting a little too hard on maidana. he's a top ten jr WW. he's never going to be pernell whitaker.
the guy has a ton of knockouts as well. you dont get those by accident, even if you arent fighting world class boxers.

he's got flaws, but he's certainly not a poor finisher
not in my book anyway.

New England
11-19-2011, 06:08 PM
Maidana is Crud. No talent. But he is no fraud i agree, the guy is strong, heavy handed, full of heart and as tough as they come - dude brings it



lol bro why's he gotta be crud?

he smashed ortiz
beat kotelnik on my card
knocked out cayo
went to war with khan

thats a top ten jr WW
that's a top 5 jr WW actually.


not everybody's going to be the masterboxer in there
and not everybody's talent that they brought to the sport that helped them get to the top is going to be centered around being the master boxer.

maidana has terrific recooperative powers
a solid chin
huge power in both hands
talent associated with terrific potential as a pressure fighter.

it's skills he lacks.
do you guys really think he's a bum? (not you surgeon, i know you appreciate a little stone grinding in there.)


i cant imagine watching the fights feeling that way about a contemporary fighter like maidana

The Surgeon
11-19-2011, 07:20 PM
lol bro why's he gotta be crud?

he smashed ortiz
beat kotelnik on my card
knocked out kayo
went to war with khan

thats a top ten jr WW
that's a top 5 jr WW actually.


not everybody's going to be the masterboxer in there
and not everybody's talent that they brought to the sport that helped them get to the top is going to be centered around being the master boxer.

maidana has terrific recooperative powers
a solid chin
huge power in both hands
talent associated with terrific potential as a pressure fighter.

it's skills he lacks.
do you guys really think he's a bum? (not you surgeon, i know you appreciate a little stone grinding in there.)


i cant imagine watching the fights feeling that way about a contemporary fighter like maidana
I think u get me but just to clarify, i rate him - he has a solid record and makes up for his lack of skill with his other attributes, genuine world level dangerman. But good god is he basic and crude....Ive seen drunks outside my local boozer with more technique and talent! There have been plenty of guys throughout history like Maidana and they get their props, he deserves his. :boxing:

New England
11-19-2011, 07:33 PM
I think u get me but just to clarify, i rate him - he has a solid record and makes up for his lack of skill with his other attributes, genuine world level dangerman. But good god is he basic and crude....Ive seen drunks outside my local boozer with more technique and talent! There have been plenty of guys throughout history like Maidana and they get their props, he deserves his. :boxing:

give me two maidana's in every division, please. i get what you are saying 100%.

speaking of bulldozers, what did you think of prescott and alvarado?

that was a nice little tear up

did you get a chance to see/listen to amir khan doing the coverage of that fight? i heard he's horrible, but that must have been interesting!

Scott9945
11-19-2011, 10:13 PM
Yet he can't knock out shot fighters, hmmmm okay.

You're sure burying the guy awful deep based on just one bad fight. Maidana got soft fighting what he thought was a soft touch in his hometown. It happens. Evander Holyfield almost got KO'd by Bert Cooper in Atlanta.

The Surgeon
11-20-2011, 05:20 AM
give me two maidana's in every division, please. i get what you are saying 100%.

speaking of bulldozers, what did you think of prescott and alvarado?

that was a nice little tear up

did you get a chance to see/listen to amir khan doing the coverage of that fight? i heard he's horrible, but that must have been interesting!

Really enjoyed that one! It was the first time id seen Alvardo to be honest and at first was totally unimpressed. Prescott looked better than i have seen him before, straighter punches and a Great inside game. Dude was throwing some serious uppercuts in there! The Khan fight made him look a better puncher than he is but he can Obviously whack! Alvardo showed some freal heart and toughness, he won me over then he started to turn the fight around too, brilliant comeback from the lil warrior - well impressed!

Didnt hear Khan no, tried to order Prime Time but we were all so inhumanly drunk we just couldnt get it together! Streamed HBO in the morning. Apparently Amir sucked balls though, repetitive and dull. Khan aint the sharpest knife in the drawer - stick to fighting son!

RubenSonny
11-22-2011, 04:57 AM
You're sure burying the guy awful deep based on just one bad fight. Maidana got soft fighting what he thought was a soft touch in his hometown. It happens. Evander Holyfield almost got KO'd by Bert Cooper in Atlanta.

Except it wasn't, he looked horrible against Morales as well.

Comparing Holyfield to Maidana is just stupid.

GrandpaBernard
12-25-2012, 09:18 PM
He did come into the fight with all the perceived advantages and lost pretty bad. It wasn't a bigger man who beat him either but someone his size. Discuss.

I made this thread last year following the robbery Marquez suffered. The heat has cooled down from Marquez knocking manny unconscious.

Did manny losing the fourth fight and losing it in the manner he did hurt his ranking?

Cardinal Buck
12-26-2012, 01:08 AM
Yes, he's now definitively the no 2 guy of the era around those weightclasses behind Floyd.