View Full Version : Tonight, Juan Manuel Marquez solidified his ATG status.


IronDanHamza
11-13-2011, 04:26 AM
Most on here and especially in this section know I don't consider Marquez to be an ATG.

I have always felt he is boarderline, on the verge of ATG status. Just behind it. Some agree with me, some don't. And that's all fine.

But, tonight, Juan Manuel Marquez left any doubt out of my mind. He is an ATG.

From this day forward I will adknowledge Marquez as having the W over Pacquaio in the 3rd fight. Like I do for Harold Johnson over Pastrano and Whitaker over Chavez.

I don't feel this fight was a robbery to the level of those fights. But what I do know, is Marquez won the fight. And he won it clearly.

Plenty on here also know I am a big Erik Morales fan, and have always considered Morales to be the levels above Marquez. Well, that's all changed now.

This win over Pacquaio has perpelled Marquez legacy to another dimension. Where is he ranked now?

But, he certainly is at the very least in the same sentance as the great Erik Morales and Marco Antonio Barrea.

Harry Balls
11-13-2011, 04:28 AM
From this day forward I will adknowledge Marquez as having the W over Pacquaio in the 3rd fight. Like I do for Harold Johnson over Pastrano and Whitaker over Chavez.

Me too. And it is what i will tell my kids and grandkids.

chiguy91
11-13-2011, 04:41 AM
1) you'll probably never find a partner to reproduce with and

2) no one give a **** about your opinion

:haha: :haha: way to express your emotions.

Harry Balls
11-13-2011, 04:43 AM
1) you'll probably never find a partner to reproduce with and

2) no one give a **** about your opinion
1) You may be right.

Other than that, maybe you should try nsb?

DeepSleep
11-13-2011, 04:48 AM
1) you'll probably never find a partner to reproduce with and

2) no one give a **** about your opinion

Someone is going to cry himself to sleep tonight...

NChristo
11-13-2011, 04:50 AM
Yeah Marquez solidified himself as a great tonight, everyone, everyone wrote him off and he put on a performance I'll never forget.

The look on his face when that first decision was announced, looked like a part of him died, he put on the performance of his life and this is what he gets ?, the man is a legend and he had his spirit stomped into the dirt by the judges.
The support he'll get from everyone now will be phenomenal I'm sure but he'll never get that official mark he worked so hard for.

Wonder what's next for him.

winky's right
11-13-2011, 04:51 AM
Given the background to the fight, this was one of the greatest performances I've ever seen. An ageing counter-puncher, two weight classes above his weight against fighter of the decade at the peak of his powers. The way Marquez neutralized Pacquiao's offence was amazing. I loved the way he set traps, avoided getting caught on the ropes, effectively punishing Pacquiao when he got reckless. The decision made me a bit sick in the stomach, but that's boxing; the beautiful and the ugly.

SCtrojansbaby
11-13-2011, 04:51 AM
Marquez was already solidified as an ATG after the Juan Diaz fight

IronDanHamza
11-13-2011, 04:53 AM
1) you'll probably never find a partner to reproduce with and

2) no one give a **** about your opinion

:lol1: :lol1:

Someone's upset.

SplitSecond
11-13-2011, 04:55 AM
1) you'll probably never find a partner to reproduce with and

2) no one give a **** about your opinion

i burst out laughing at this post, dude getting all emotional

IronDanHamza
11-13-2011, 04:56 AM
Marquez was already solidified as an ATG after the Juan Diaz fight

Ok.

Let's leave it at this, if there was ever a spec of doubt, that doubt no longer exists.

IronDanHamza
11-13-2011, 05:00 AM
Yeah Marquez solidified himself as a great tonight, everyone, everyone wrote him off and he put on a performance I'll never forget.

The look on his face when that first decision was announced, looked like a part of him died, he put on the performance of his life and this is what he gets ?, the man is a legend and he had his spirit stomped into the dirt by the judges.
The support he'll get from everyone now will be phenomenal I'm sure but he'll never get that official mark he worked so hard for.

Wonder what's next for him.

My face was the same.

I could not believe a judge had it a draw, let alone a win for Pacquaio!

When the next two got read out I was like; 'Ahh, don't know how it's an MD but atleast Marquez still won'.

Marquez looked distraught, and rightfully so.

But, atleast the world will know who really won.

$coinblatt$
11-13-2011, 05:08 AM
great post, I also considered Marquez borderline ATG.... tonight he proved to me he is without a doubt up there with all the great mexican fighters.

Sugarj
11-13-2011, 10:19 AM
great post, I also considered Marquez borderline ATG.... tonight he proved to me he is without a doubt up there with all the great mexican fighters.


Marquez was superb last night. I'm a Pacquiao fan but the fight wasn't even close.

A shocking decision!

Greatest1942
11-13-2011, 10:31 AM
My face was the same.

I could not believe a judge had it a draw, let alone a win for Pacquaio!

When the next two got read out I was like; 'Ahh, don't know how it's an MD but atleast Marquez still won'.

Marquez looked distraught, and rightfully so.

But, atleast the world will know who really won."

It was shocking.

I am however of the opinion now that that judges fail to see what good counter punchers are doing now a days. They are more adjusted to seeing "footwork" et all, than subtle counter punching. The subtle skills like setting up a trap, standing there yet neutralizing your opponent (in today's term running is the only defence).

The simple fact that there is more to boxing than jumping around the ring like a bunny rabbit has escaped most judges and fans.

But about the fight, I have seen many, and this was one of the best efforts I saw. I will always remember this effort of Marquez.

Marchegiano
11-13-2011, 10:47 AM
****ing **** yeah my *****s! I love this section...y'all got some sense to you. That fight made JMM for me. I mean we all like us some good boxing, and he's given us that for years, but last night he took out the most exaggerated ****er in the sport. I bet you anything JMM does not share his bed with a bunch of little asian men......pac's a weird dude. I know I didn't say anything boxing relative....you kind of covered that in the OP. This is basically me agreeing with that, plus saying,and I mean this; **** Manny.

Great John L
11-13-2011, 10:59 AM
I didn't watch the fight because money's tight right now, but I'm not super surprised at what happened. Everytime a fight with a champion has a disputable ending, the win usually goes to the champ like in Louis-Walcott I, Ali-Norton III, etc. It's kind of like protocal. I really want to see it and analyze it for myself, though.

BigStereotype
11-13-2011, 11:09 AM
I'll tell you what - I never wrote off Marquez and I ****ing celebrated that last night. It was a win. I don't care what the bought-ass judges say. My man won that fight and cemented himself as one of the very greatest Mexicans there ever was.

Sugarj
11-13-2011, 11:22 AM
I didn't watch the fight because money's tight right now, but I'm not super surprised at what happened. Everytime a fight with a champion has a disputable ending, the win usually goes to the champ like in Louis-Walcott I, Ali-Norton III, etc. It's kind of like protocal. I really want to see it and analyze it for myself, though.

It wont be long before its on You Tube.

If you can find 4 rounds to give to Pac, you'd be doing well.

Story of the fight is Pacquiao coming forward, missing and being nailed with counters all night. Marquez wasn't once in trouble and Pacquiao was near as dammit staggered/caught off balance at least a couple of times.

Great John L
11-13-2011, 11:31 AM
So it's not much different than their previous two fights then. I kinda feel left out that I didn't see it though, lol.

young_robbed
11-13-2011, 11:58 AM
So it's not much different than their previous two fights then. I kinda feel left out that I didn't see it though, lol.

Marquez completely schooled him this time though. The other two were close fights, especially the first. The second I had Marquez by a couple points.

DarkTerror88
11-13-2011, 12:08 PM
I gave JMM the first one barely. The second fight I had a draw, but the point from the knockdown gave manny the win on my card. Still have to watch this one. To Youtube! Away!!!

Scott9945
11-13-2011, 12:33 PM
I gave JMM the first one barely. The second fight I had a draw, but the point from the knockdown gave manny the win on my card. Still have to watch this one. To Youtube! Away!!!


The first two fights were much better, IMO. There was too much feinting and posing in this fight for my taste. Marquez fought very well considering his age and the higher weight. Pacquaio basically looked like crap. Sure wish that I bet on the overs in this fight as I thought the predictions of a Pacquaio blowout were crazy. There wasn't anything remotely close to a knockdown in this match.

IronDanHamza
11-13-2011, 12:38 PM
The difference between the first two fights is they were close fights that could have gone either way.

This fight, however, was barely close.

DarkTerror88
11-13-2011, 01:59 PM
Fight isnt on youtube yet....curses...

Anyone know when it will be up for viewing? Or has the PPV copyright not worn off yet?

NChristo
11-13-2011, 02:15 PM
Fight isnt on youtube yet....curses...

Anyone know when it will be up for viewing? Or has the PPV copyright not worn off yet?

It's in the video trading block, would put it on youtube but chances are it would get taken down asap.

Great John L
11-13-2011, 02:51 PM
I remember a few months back they had the entire Klitschko-Haye fight on Youtube. It was over an hour in just one video, so they might have this one sometime.

IronDanHamza
11-13-2011, 03:00 PM
I just rewatched the fight for the first time and I imagine it will be the final time.

Because the second time round I had it even wider for Marquez.

How that fight can be scored to Pacquaio is utterly beyond me.

crold1
11-13-2011, 03:14 PM
Most on here and especially in this section know I don't consider Marquez to be an ATG.

I have always felt he is boarderline, on the verge of ATG status. Just behind it. Some agree with me, some don't. And that's all fine.

But, tonight, Juan Manuel Marquez left any doubt out of my mind. He is an ATG.

From this day forward I will adknowledge Marquez as having the W over Pacquaio in the 3rd fight. Like I do for Harold Johnson over Pastrano and Whitaker over Chavez.

I don't feel this fight was a robbery to the level of those fights. But what I do know, is Marquez won the fight. And he won it clearly.

Plenty on here also know I am a big Erik Morales fan, and have always considered Morales to be the levels above Marquez. Well, that's all changed now.

This win over Pacquaio has perpelled Marquez legacy to another dimension. Where is he ranked now?

But, he certainly is at the very least in the same sentance as the great Erik Morales and Marco Antonio Barrea.

I thought Pac won last night (15-13) but I thought Marquez eeked the first two fights. These two are just each other's shadow. Great stuff.

Steak
11-13-2011, 03:29 PM
I already considered Marquez an ATG before this fight.

and Im really kind of surprised that people thought he won last night. I mean, I dont have a problem with people saying he won, but it definitely was NOT a robbery.

and I had Marquez winning the second fight. First fight is so close I end up changing my mind every time I watch it.

Ill try rescoring it later, but I didnt think Marquez was nearly as 'dominant' as some are making it out to be...I dont even think he won the fight, 6-6 in my mind. Perhaps its just people giving him rounds because he was doing the 'unexpected'.

crold1
11-13-2011, 03:31 PM
I already considered Marquez an ATG before this fight.

and Im really kind of surprised that people thought he won last night. I mean, I dont have a problem with people saying he won, but it definitely was NOT a robbery.

and I had Marquez winning the second fight. First fight is so close I end up changing my mind every time I watch it.

Ill try rescoring it later, but I didnt think Marquez was nearly as 'dominant' as some are making it out to be...I dont even think he won the fight, 6-6 in my mind. Perhaps its just people giving him rounds because he was doing the 'unexpected'.

I think he so far exceeded expectations going in that it could be an influence. Could also be this was the sort of fight people will see differently. No robbery IMO.

SLIMY RAT
11-13-2011, 03:48 PM
Don't watch the HBO feed.. or at least mute it.. it was clear they were trying to save the potential money fight with Mayweather/Pacquiao. Lampley/Steward and Lederman were disgustingly bias

As for Marquez an ATG? hmm i guess his resume outside Pac is not exactly full of top fighters though

IronDanHamza
11-13-2011, 03:49 PM
I think he so far exceeded expectations going in that it could be an influence. Could also be this was the sort of fight people will see differently. No robbery IMO.

It could be because Marquez landed the cleaner punches in almost every round.

Fight was an outright robbery.

I find giving Pacquaio 5 rounds a difficult task.

crold1
11-13-2011, 03:55 PM
It could be because Marquez landed the cleaner punches in almost every round.

Fight was an outright robbery.

I find giving Pacquaio 5 rounds a difficult task.

It wasn't an outright robbery. It was a razor thin scoring nightmare just like the first two. You'll recognize that to some extent when you're further away from the fight and get over the sound of 'incredulous' (not your word...just the right word for the feeling) scores that didn't agree with yours. It happens to everyone and this fight is the sort really sparking good debate.

Williams-Lara? Outright robbery, a pox on the sport.

Last night? It'll be argued about for ages. Good stuff. Look at the wide range of scores out there and then think about the wide range that doesn't exist for real robberies.

Great John L
11-13-2011, 03:59 PM
What I wonder is, will this help or hinder the Mayweather-Pacquiao fight? Maybe after this flop against Marquez, Pacquiao will be more willing to fight Floyd to redeem himself, or maybe Floyd will fight Marquez? Or maybe Pacquiao will be unconfident now and will avoid fighting Mayweather because he knows he probably won't get another lucky decision. Any opinions?

joseph5620
11-13-2011, 04:00 PM
Most on here and especially in this section know I don't consider Marquez to be an ATG.

I have always felt he is boarderline, on the verge of ATG status. Just behind it. Some agree with me, some don't. And that's all fine.

But, tonight, Juan Manuel Marquez left any doubt out of my mind. He is an ATG.

From this day forward I will adknowledge Marquez as having the W over Pacquaio in the 3rd fight. Like I do for Harold Johnson over Pastrano and Whitaker over Chavez.

I don't feel this fight was a robbery to the level of those fights. But what I do know, is Marquez won the fight. And he won it clearly.

Plenty on here also know I am a big Erik Morales fan, and have always considered Morales to be the levels above Marquez. Well, that's all changed now.

This win over Pacquaio has perpelled Marquez legacy to another dimension. Where is he ranked now?

But, he certainly is at the very least in the same sentance as the great Erik Morales and Marco Antonio Barrea.



Nice post. I'm curious to see whether Mayweather will get more credit for dominating Marquez as the years go by. All I read after that fight was that Marquez was "old", "fat",and "slow." Well last might he was three years older at that same weight. And he has not gotten any faster.



I was way off for this fight. Marquez had a lot more left than I thought nad he dereves major props and respect. I also think Marquez style had everything to do with Pacquiao looking bad. I don't buy the slipping" or leg cramps excuse for his performance. Pacquiao had not fought a sharp counter puncher since his last fight with Marquez. And it showed last night.

IronDanHamza
11-13-2011, 04:17 PM
It wasn't an outright robbery. It was a razor thin scoring nightmare just like the first two. You'll recognize that to some extent when you're further away from the fight and get over the sound of 'incredulous' (not your word...just the right word for the feeling) scores that didn't agree with yours. It happens to everyone and this fight is the sort really sparking good debate.

Williams-Lara? Outright robbery, a pox on the sport.

Last night? It'll be argued about for ages. Good stuff. Look at the wide range of scores out there and then think about the wide range that doesn't exist for real robberies.

We may aswell cut this conversation short here because I will simply never ever agree that Marquez did not win this fight.

He not only won it, but won it clearly. The juding was not a nightmare I found it relatively easy despite 2 or 3 rounds I considered close.

I don't consider it remotely like the first 2, either.

I consider it to be similar to the first fight just without any knockdowns.

Whether I watch the fight today or in the next years the result will be the same.

I have seen plenty of robberies before in my time and I will see plenty again. This just adds to that list.

crold1
11-13-2011, 04:19 PM
We may aswell cut this conversation short here because I will simply never ever agree that Marquez did not win this fight.

He not only won it, but won it clearly. The juding was not a nightmare I found it relatively easy despite 2 or 3 rounds I considered close.

I don't consider it remotely like the first 2, either.

I consider it to be similar to the first fight just without any knockdowns.

Whether I watch the fight today or in the next years the result will be the same.

I have seen plenty of robberies before in my time and I will see plenty again. This just adds to that list.

You're right...the dozens of people who have all watched thousands of fights who thought it was close, saw it going one way OR the other, are all crazy and this is up there with Williams-Lara for robbery of the year.

Uh huh.

Even this part of the post-fight is awesome...boxing breeds a special certainty. Oh but for the real barber shops.

Marchegiano
11-13-2011, 04:26 PM
I'm not that interested in Pacweather any longer. The should have struck while the iron is hot. JMM won that fight by a wide margin.

RubenSonny
11-13-2011, 04:33 PM
You're right...the dozens of people who have all watched thousands of fights who thought it was close, saw it going one way OR the other, are all crazy and this is up there with Williams-Lara for robbery of the year.

Uh huh.

Even this part of the post-fight is awesome...boxing breeds a special certainty. Oh but for the real barber shops.

http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=520879

Just sayin'.

IronDanHamza
11-13-2011, 04:35 PM
Nice post. I'm curious to see whether Mayweather will get more credit for dominating Marquez as the years go by. All I read after that fight was that Marquez was "old", "fat",and "slow." Well last might he was three years older at that same weight. And he has not gotten any faster.

Absolutely. He absolutely does.

Most of us, including myself felt the jump in weight was the reason for his poor performance. Turns out we were all wrong, and Marqeuz proved it.


I was way off for this fight. Marquez had a lot more left than I thought nad he dereves major props and respect. I also think Marquez style had everything to do with Pacquiao looking bad. I don't buy the slipping" or leg cramps excuse for his performance. Pacquiao had not fought a sharp counter puncher since his last fight with Marquez. And it showed last night.

Same here, my friend. I was way off, I said things such as I wouldn't be suprised if it ended in Round 1! I can't believe I said that!

This kind of win for Marquez elevates him to sheer greatness. Up there with his fellow Countrymen of his era Morales and Barrera. Where he's always felt he belongs.

And now, no one can deny it. He went out there and put on the performance of his career and beat a Top 50 ATG, #1 P4P, two weights higher.

crold1
11-13-2011, 04:41 PM
http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=520879

Just sayin'.

And? Some had it wide; some close; some post no score but say how awesome Marquez's performance was (meaning they could well have scored against but be like, 'wow' sort of like I am). I'm not digging in on scores for JMM. I had him ahead the first two times. The press is split all sorts of ways. This was one of those fights.

PunchesNbuncheS
11-13-2011, 04:48 PM
I already had him as an ATG and I had him above Morales and Barrera by a bit but I agree with you that he CLEARLY beat Pacquiao last night!

Marquez was already an ATG in my book but now he is one of the immortals of the sport. Manny knows he lost, Roach knows he lost, even Ariza who is usually very talkative after their wins hasnt said a damn thing!

Pacquiao has more power, more speed, more titles but Marquez is a better boxer and could always beat him and thats what will be remembered in boxing history!

crold1
11-13-2011, 04:51 PM
I already had him as an ATG and I had him above Morales and Barrera by a bit but I agree with you that he CLEARLY beat Pacquiao last night!

Marquez was already an ATG in my book but now he is one of the immortals of the sport. Manny knows he lost, Roach knows he lost, even Ariza who is usually very talkative after their wins hasnt said a damn thing!

Pacquiao has more power, more speed, more titles but Marquez is a better boxer and could always beat him and thats what will be remembered in boxing history!

He's had three tries and he still hasn't beat him. I get the romance of Marquez and if anyone thinks he won last night, that's cool. He's HOF bad ass. Close fight. In fights this close, I stick with the official verdict even if I narrowly scored the series 2-1 in favor of JMM. Official says 2-0-1 for the little fella. Something about JMM doesn't do enough to sway the judges against Pac. The same wasn't true for, say, Morales, and Pac isn't getting Pierre Benoist scores. In three fights, he's done what he does very well but he hasn't done enough to win. Last night, I didn't think he won at all.

IronDanHamza
11-13-2011, 05:03 PM
He's had three tries and he still hasn't beat him. I get the romance of Marquez and if anyone thinks he won last night, that's cool. He's HOF bad ass. Close fight. In fights this close, I stick with the official verdict even if I narrowly scored the series 2-1 in favor of JMM. Official says 2-0-1 for the little fella. Something about JMM doesn't do enough to sway the judges against Pac. The same wasn't true for, say, Morales, and Pac isn't getting Pierre Benoist scores. In three fights, he's done what he does very well but he hasn't done enough to win. Last night, I didn't think he won at all.

The first Morales fight was about as the clear as the 3rd Marquez fight.

Then again, Larry Merchant had Morales-Pacquaio 1 a draw which is about as baffling as having Pacquaio beating Marquez last night so I guess not much has changed there.

crold1
11-13-2011, 05:13 PM
The first Morales fight was about as the clear as the 3rd Marquez fight.

Then again, Larry Merchant had Morales-Pacquaio 1 a draw which is about as baffling as having Pacquaio beating Marquez last night so I guess not much has changed there.

Morales I was much more clear IMO but, hey, I scored that for Morales. And you evidently didn't have Marquez winning the first two with Pac which I would have argued against.

There's nothing baffling here. This is called the aftermath of a close fight. You're just firmly on one side of the scoring bell curve. No big.

IronDanHamza
11-13-2011, 05:26 PM
Morales I was much more clear IMO but, hey, I scored that for Morales. And you evidently didn't have Marquez winning the first two with Pac which I would have argued against.

There's nothing baffling here. This is called the aftermath of a close fight. You're just firmly on one side of the scoring bell curve. No big.

I had the first Pacquaio-Marquez fight a draw that either had an argument to win and I had the second fight to Marquez by a few points but felt it was a close fight that could have gone either way so wasn't mad with either result.

Last night, however, was not close.

Capaedia
11-13-2011, 05:39 PM
Has anyone shifted Floyd to #1 P4P as a result of last night?

Just curious

BigStereotype
11-13-2011, 05:39 PM
I had the first Pacquaio-Marquez fight a draw that either had an argument to win and I had the second fight to Marquez by a few points but felt it was a close fight that could have gone either way so wasn't mad with either result.

Last night, however, was not close.

Don't budge an inch man, you're right on point. Marquez won that fight. Period.

crold1
11-13-2011, 05:43 PM
Don't budge an inch man, you're right on point. Marquez won that fight. Period.

Except he didn't. Period. He'd have a hell of a lot more complaint if he'd closed the show. He lost the last two rounds on 2 of 3 judges cards (and on mine). Marquez winky'd the biggest moment of his life in a fight I had dead even after ten. He can live with that; inexplicable that he decelerated knowing how close it had been twice before.

Pac. 115. 113.

IronDanHamza
11-13-2011, 06:09 PM
Has anyone shifted Floyd to #1 P4P as a result of last night?

Just curious

My current personal P4P list;

1. Mayweather
2. Marquez
3. Pacquaio
4. Donaire
5. Martinez

Although there's an argument that Marquez could be #1 considering his win last night is better than Mayweather has done in recent years. Ever, infact.

Then again, Mayweather did shut out Marquez. So that would be my personal list.

RubenSonny
11-13-2011, 07:44 PM
And? Some had it wide; some close; some post no score but say how awesome Marquez's performance was (meaning they could well have scored against but be like, 'wow' sort of like I am). I'm not digging in on scores for JMM. I had him ahead the first two times. The press is split all sorts of ways. This was one of those fights.

It was pro Marquez with nearly all saying Marquez deserved the decision and many calling the fight a robbery.

He's had three tries and he still hasn't beat him. I get the romance of Marquez and if anyone thinks he won last night, that's cool. He's HOF bad ass. Close fight. In fights this close, I stick with the official verdict even if I narrowly scored the series 2-1 in favor of JMM. Official says 2-0-1 for the little fella. Something about JMM doesn't do enough to sway the judges against Pac. The same wasn't true for, say, Morales, and Pac isn't getting Pierre Benoist scores. In three fights, he's done what he does very well but he hasn't done enough to win. Last night, I didn't think he won at all.

Your smart enough to know that the official decision doesn't mean you deserve it in boxing so taking a conservative stance on this just doesn't cut it. It's like saying Kibaki won the elections in 2007.

crold1
11-13-2011, 07:47 PM
Your smart enough to know that the official decision doesn't mean you deserve it in boxing so taking a conservative stance on this just doesn't cut it. It's like saying Kibaki won the elections in 2007.

LOL...nice. I agree. Official decisions can suck. Most don't. In a fight this close, a series this close, where I'm within a point or two of most of the judging throughout, I'm going with the eyeballs at ringside. Morales convinced the judges and was doing it again the second time before Pac turned the tide. Marquez never did. I thought Pac won last night. I think this is basically a dead heat as a rivalry.

I think people will still get heated on this for a long time. Awesome stuff and the best of boxing.

RubenSonny
11-13-2011, 07:53 PM
LOL...nice. I agree. Official decisions can suck. Most don't. In a fight this close, a series this close, where I'm within a point or two of most of the judging throughout, I'm going with the eyeballs at ringside. Morales convinced the judges and was doing it again the second time before Pac turned the tide. Marquez never did. I thought Pac won last night. I think this is basically a dead heat as a rivalry.

I think people will still get heated on this for a long time. Awesome stuff and the best of boxing.

I think I need to watch it again but I had Marquez winning more comfortably than I've seen him before.

On a side note I swear Marquez' punch resistance is one of the most bizarre things I have ever seen (in terms of consistency).

IronDanHamza
11-13-2011, 08:57 PM
I think I need to watch it again but I had Marquez winning more comfortably than I've seen him before.

On a side note I swear Marquez' punch resistance is one of the most bizarre things I have ever seen (in terms of consistency).

That would be because he did win more comfortabley.

I was pretty much the first fight without 3 knockdowns against him.

LeG00N
11-13-2011, 09:19 PM
I was okay with the first one being a draw. The second I thought Marquez won by a point or two. I thought this last fight Marquez won more comfortably.

Marquez @ 38 was the Lineal lightweight champ and he went up 2 weight classes to fight The Fighter Of The Decade and #1 P4P in the world.
He beat him. If he would've gotten the nod he would've had a WW title and Lineal LW championship .... at the same time.

I do think he became a solidified ATG last night.

New England
11-14-2011, 10:19 AM
if that fight was at 138 the judges would have had a real hard time scoring for pacquiao

i've only seen the fight once at this point
obviously i'll be watching it again when i get the chance and i'll try and keep the sound down and score the thing.


i will say that the marquez rounds were more clear in my eyes, and i felt he won more of them. pacquiao did land some left hands, and he's still got the best punch in boxing in terms of crispness/sharpness and speed. i find myself taking his left hand for granted now, which is a shame. the man is gifted.


pacquiao seriously devolved in this fight. he looked okay to me physically, but he fell into patterns he had developed in the first two fights. muscle memory i guess. and 24 rounds with a great counterpuncher who makes real adjustments.
he was looking for the left hand again, like he had been doing early in his career. he used to bomb guys out with that thing(he dropped marquez four times with it!)
marquez was doing what he had been doing for 23.5 rounds and looking for the left hand and trying to take it away. as with most of the last two fights, he found success technically, while still being a bit outgunned.


i though pacquiao would use his legs more and try his hand at boxing//using the ring. he showed early that his footspeed was enough to get a 38 year old LW at the heaviest of his career off balance.
marquez legs are nowhere near what they used to be, and manny still shas some of the fastest feet in the game. against the big guys he used them with consistency, with Marquez he fought a big man's fight


finally, i'm not going to accuse marquez of anything but;
he looked night and day different from his last go at WW in terms of his body and his movement. night and day. if heredia is clean i think he did a terrific job. (obviously floyd mayweather had a bit to do with that as well. this fight is killing my chances of making good money on the mayweather fight, which i now believe pacquiao has next to zero chance of winning considering floyds level of activity.)


and if you look around you can find video of heredia in a german documentary about performance enhancing drugs in the olympics where he injects HIMSELF with what i believe is "EPO." he puts the needle right in his stomach

the audio in english is too low and i dont speak german, but if i can find it and post it here i will
something to think about.


no need to fight again
what's going to be different? marquez wont stop pacquiao (especially when he weighs 150 lbs)
and there are about 100 Million reasons for him to lose a decision

the finances of boxing are on the minds of the judges. they have to be. i dont care if you're actively going at it with an agenda as a judge. you understand that manny is good for your industry.


the crowds at the manny fights are getting a bit strange for my taste. to them the fights are a consolation for the lack of a mayweather fight. they were either booing eachother (which is fine,) or booing the fighters far too quickly.

pacquiao's likely to have no more than two or three more fights. in boxing the match carries much less water now, but the layman would never forgive boxing for not making pacquiao and mayweather.


finally, marquez es el mas macho
he did better against pacquiao this time around than anybody since erik morales in their first fight. more people seem to be calling it a poor decision this time around than in their first two fights.

lets go through the names, because it's pretty remarkable that he had a better showing than all of these bigger, younger(with some miles, certainly) guys:
barerra
de la hoya
hatton
cotto
clottey
margarito
mosley

The Surgeon
11-14-2011, 10:43 AM
Marquez - 3-0 Vs Pacquaio in my book

ATG for sure. Glad to see u guys giving him his props and calling those judges on that piss poor scoring

Barn
11-14-2011, 11:00 AM
Marquez - 3-0 Vs Pacquaio in my book

ATG for sure. Glad to see u guys giving him his props and calling those judges on that piss poor scoring
I have it 1-1-1

First fight - 114-113 Pacquaio
Second fight - 114 -114 Even.
Third fight - 112 - 116 Marquez.

The Surgeon
11-14-2011, 11:08 AM
I have it 1-1-1

First fight - 114-113 Pacquaio
Second fight - 114 -114 Even.
Third fight - 112 - 116 Marquez.

I personally have found Marquez pulling away a little bit more in each fight than the last. This being the clearest win yet

Fight 2 was the best to watch tho

IronDanHamza
11-14-2011, 12:32 PM
I have it 1-1-1

First fight - 114-113 Pacquaio
Second fight - 114 -114 Even.
Third fight - 112 - 116 Marquez.

I personally have it 2-0-1 Marquez.

The first fight I scored a draw.

Second, I had Marquez winning by a point or 2.

Third, 117-112 Marquez.

The first two I wasn't mad with the result because I felt those fights coul d have gone either way. Unlike the 3rd fight.

bojangles1987
11-14-2011, 12:37 PM
My current personal P4P list;

1. Mayweather
2. Marquez
3. Pacquaio
4. Donaire
5. Martinez

Although there's an argument that Marquez could be #1 considering his win last night is better than Mayweather has done in recent years. Ever, infact.

Then again, Mayweather did shut out Marquez. So that would be my personal list.

Leaving my opinion of this fight out of it, I've always had Marquez right there with Mayweather and Pacquiao on the p4p list. Everyone kind of dumped him down the list after the Mayweather fight, which I never understood, and threw everyone from Shane Mosley to Paul Williams to Sergio Martinez to Nonito Donaire to Bernard Hopkins ahead of him. There's never been any doubt in my mind that Marquez should have never lost his spot somewhere in the p4p top 3.

He absolutely did prove he is an ATG though. I'd still put Morales clearly above him, but he surpassed Barrera.

Vadrigar.
11-14-2011, 01:44 PM
I think Pacquiao won the fight on Saturday. Marquez didn't break the barrier of defeat. I would really like to think that Marquez won but I can't say it with any confidence.

joseph5620
11-14-2011, 01:49 PM
Has anyone shifted Floyd to #1 P4P as a result of last night?

Just curious

I personally had him at number 1 before the fight. This fight didn't have any effect one way or the other on my opinion.

The Surgeon
11-14-2011, 02:31 PM
I personally had him at number 1 before the fight. This fight didn't have any effect one way or the other on my opinion.

Agreed joseph

BigStereotype
11-14-2011, 04:53 PM
Round 1: 10-10. More looking than throwing in this round. Neither one did much. Nice little exchange at the end. Marquez controlled the pace

Round 2: 10-9 Marquez. Beautiful tactical round from a true Master Boxer. Good solid combinations, controlled the pace well.

Round 3: 10-9, Marquez. Marquez doesn't have his offense working so well YET, but Pacquiao can't land anything.

Round 4: 10-9 Marquez. Close round until the last ten seconds when Marquez found the range on a BIG right hand.

Round 5: 10-9 Marquez. Pac seriously has no idea how to attack. Marquez landed several very very hard shots in that round.

Round 6: 10-9 Pacquiao. Pac came alive this round. Marquez stood in front of him too much. Landed good shots, but Pac landed better.

Round 7: 10-9 Marquez. Marquez outlanded him at every turn in this round, highlighted by one massive right hand early on. Pac looks confused

Round 8: 10-9 Marquez. I'm repeating myself but this is tactical smothering by Marquez. He's just the superior technician.

Round 9: 10-9 Marquez. Pacquiao landed some but was soooooo open to the counter shots. Marquez landed some excellent counters w both hands

Round 10: 10-9 Pacquiao. Pac landed some serious stuff in that round, no joke. Marquez landed to. Hard round to score, but Pac won exchanges

Round 11: 10-9 Marquez. Pac started off strong, got over confident and got ripped the rest of the round. I was ready to give this one to Pac and then Marquez reminded everyone who the better fighter is. What a performance.

Round 12: 10-10. Looked like the first round. A lot of looking not many punches. Pac needed the knockout and he couldn't summon up the aggression.

118-112 for Marquez. Weird score with two even rounds but wow, this was a shameful robbery. What an awful decision.

IronDanHamza
11-14-2011, 05:41 PM
Round 1: 10-10. More looking than throwing in this round. Neither one did much. Nice little exchange at the end. Marquez controlled the pace

Round 2: 10-9 Marquez. Beautiful tactical round from a true Master Boxer. Good solid combinations, controlled the pace well.

Round 3: 10-9, Marquez. Marquez doesn't have his offense working so well YET, but Pacquiao can't land anything.

Round 4: 10-9 Marquez. Close round until the last ten seconds when Marquez found the range on a BIG right hand.

Round 5: 10-9 Marquez. Pac seriously has no idea how to attack. Marquez landed several very very hard shots in that round.

Round 6: 10-9 Pacquiao. Pac came alive this round. Marquez stood in front of him too much. Landed good shots, but Pac landed better.

Round 7: 10-9 Marquez. Marquez outlanded him at every turn in this round, highlighted by one massive right hand early on. Pac looks confused

Round 8: 10-9 Marquez. I'm repeating myself but this is tactical smothering by Marquez. He's just the superior technician.

Round 9: 10-9 Marquez. Pacquiao landed some but was soooooo open to the counter shots. Marquez landed some excellent counters w both hands

Round 10: 10-9 Pacquiao. Pac landed some serious stuff in that round, no joke. Marquez landed to. Hard round to score, but Pac won exchanges

Round 11: 10-9 Marquez. Pac started off strong, got over confident and got ripped the rest of the round. I was ready to give this one to Pac and then Marquez reminded everyone who the better fighter is. What a performance.

Round 12: 10-10. Looked like the first round. A lot of looking not many punches. Pac needed the knockout and he couldn't summon up the aggression.

118-112 for Marquez. Weird score with two even rounds but wow, this was a shameful robbery. What an awful decision.

Other than Round 3 which I felt was Pacquaio's most clear round, I had a similar card.

1. Pacquaio
2. Marquez
3. Pacquaio
4. Marquez
5. Marquez
6. Pacquaio
7. Marquez
8. Marquez
9. Marquez
10. Marquez
11. Marquez
12. Even.

117-112. Marquez.

crold1
11-14-2011, 06:49 PM
Other than Round 3 which I felt was Pacquaio's most clear round, I had a similar card.

1. Pacquaio
2. Marquez
3. Pacquaio
4. Marquez
5. Marquez
6. Pacquaio
7. Marquez
8. Marquez
9. Marquez
10. Marquez
11. Marquez
12. Even.

117-112. Marquez.

Interesting...I had the same score as you (with 3 and 4 flipped) going into nine and then had Pac sweeping. I don't get how the final round was even. Pac won that round fairly clearly.

IronDanHamza
11-14-2011, 07:08 PM
Interesting...I had the same score as you (with 3 and 4 flipped) going into nine and then had Pac sweeping. I don't get how the final round was even. Pac won that round fairly clearly.

Round 12 could have gone either way from what I saw.

Glen Trowbridge actually scored Round 12 to Marquez strangely enough. With Hoyle and Moretti scoring it for Pac.

Not mad at any of those decisions, like I said, could have gone either way.

On the other hand, I can't see how you could possibly have Pacquaio sweeping rounds 9-12. That literally makes no sense to me.

crold1
11-14-2011, 07:09 PM
Round 12 could have gone either way from what I saw.

Glen Trowbridge actually scored Round 12 to Marquez strangely enough. With Hoyle and Moretti scoring it for Pac.

Not mad at any of those decisions, like I said, could have gone either way.

On the other hand, I can't see how you could possibly have Pacquaio sweeping rounds 9-12. That literally makes no sense to me.

Trowbridge's score is absurd. He had Pac up five going into 12. THAT I don't get.

SplitSecond
11-14-2011, 08:09 PM
Other than Round 3 which I felt was Pacquaio's most clear round, I had a similar card.

1. Pacquaio
2. Marquez
3. Pacquaio
4. Marquez
5. Marquez
6. Pacquaio
7. Marquez
8. Marquez
9. Marquez
10. Marquez
11. Marquez
12. Even.

117-112. Marquez.

Round 1: 10-10. More looking than throwing in this round. Neither one did much. Nice little exchange at the end. Marquez controlled the pace

Round 2: 10-9 Marquez. Beautiful tactical round from a true Master Boxer. Good solid combinations, controlled the pace well.

Round 3: 10-9, Marquez. Marquez doesn't have his offense working so well YET, but Pacquiao can't land anything.

Round 4: 10-9 Marquez. Close round until the last ten seconds when Marquez found the range on a BIG right hand.

Round 5: 10-9 Marquez. Pac seriously has no idea how to attack. Marquez landed several very very hard shots in that round.

Round 6: 10-9 Pacquiao. Pac came alive this round. Marquez stood in front of him too much. Landed good shots, but Pac landed better.

Round 7: 10-9 Marquez. Marquez outlanded him at every turn in this round, highlighted by one massive right hand early on. Pac looks confused

Round 8: 10-9 Marquez. I'm repeating myself but this is tactical smothering by Marquez. He's just the superior technician.

Round 9: 10-9 Marquez. Pacquiao landed some but was soooooo open to the counter shots. Marquez landed some excellent counters w both hands

Round 10: 10-9 Pacquiao. Pac landed some serious stuff in that round, no joke. Marquez landed to. Hard round to score, but Pac won exchanges

Round 11: 10-9 Marquez. Pac started off strong, got over confident and got ripped the rest of the round. I was ready to give this one to Pac and then Marquez reminded everyone who the better fighter is. What a performance.

Round 12: 10-10. Looked like the first round. A lot of looking not many punches. Pac needed the knockout and he couldn't summon up the aggression.

118-112 for Marquez. Weird score with two even rounds but wow, this was a shameful robbery. What an awful decision.

lol wtf.....terrible cards

JD Salinger
11-14-2011, 08:22 PM
mega props to marquez for giving pac a run for his money. and he did that without the friggin osdt! i don't think we can say the same for floyd if ever he beat pac with the extra testing. much respect to el dinamita.

Scott9945
11-14-2011, 09:11 PM
mega props to marquez for giving pac a run for his money. and he did that without the friggin osdt! i don't think we can say the same for floyd if ever he beat pac with the extra testing. much respect to el dinamita.

After seeing Marquez at the weigh in, I'm not so sure he'd have wanted enhanced drug testing.

$coinblatt$
11-14-2011, 09:11 PM
lol wtf.....terrible cards

opinions, opinions, opinions

Scott9945
11-14-2011, 09:25 PM
This is the best recap of Pac-JMM II that I've read so far:

http://thecruelestsport.com/2011/11/14/winner-take-nothing-manny-pacquiao-w12-juan-manuel-marquez/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

winky's right
11-14-2011, 10:09 PM
After seeing Marquez at the weigh in, I'm not so sure he'd have wanted enhanced drug testing.

go kill yourself

Scott9945
11-14-2011, 10:23 PM
go kill yourself

If you have a problem, spell it out. Otherwise you can blow me. :bling1:

Toyman
11-14-2011, 10:27 PM
i really have no idea how this is less than a draw for pac

Pac
JMM
Pac
Pac
JMM
Pac
JMM
JMM
Pac
Pac
Pac
Pac


i had it 8-4 and upon further review, JMM only landed 2 punches in the 2nd round which i gave to him, so could easily be 9-3.

Upon even further review, that make it 3-0 for pac in the trilogy.

Great John L
11-14-2011, 10:32 PM
We can't change what the judges voted no matter how wrong it may seem. It's not the first time this has happened in boxing and it won't be the last. All we can do is see how things go from here.

SCtrojansbaby
11-14-2011, 10:53 PM
Anybody who has Marquez winning the 12th their scorecard has no credibility.

$coinblatt$
11-14-2011, 11:01 PM
After seeing Marquez at the weigh in, I'm not so sure he'd have wanted enhanced drug testing.

Marquez had no problem whatsoever taking any type of drug tests.

Scott9945
11-15-2011, 01:05 AM
Marquez had no problem whatsoever taking any type of drug tests.

He didn't when he fought Floyd. Sure didn't sure look the same as he did this time though. I don't really care, but I can't pretend that I didn't notice.

$BloodyNate$
11-15-2011, 03:04 AM
Yeah Marquez solidified himself as a great tonight, everyone, everyone wrote him off and he put on a performance I'll never forget.

The look on his face when that first decision was announced, looked like a part of him died, he put on the performance of his life and this is what he gets ?, the man is a legend and he had his spirit stomped into the dirt by the judges.
The support he'll get from everyone now will be phenomenal I'm sure but he'll never get that official mark he worked so hard for.

Wonder what's next for him.
Not really i kept telling irondanza marquez was a terrible match up. He kept telling me he was too fat old and slow. Pacs too big. Same God damn excuse for the 2nd fight. Marquez is the ****ing man he would shatter khans chin at 140 as Khan gets too aggressive and marquez would exploit him. Embarass morales and maidana. Only person he cant beat is floyd whos just the worse possible style since he has to Chase him.

Marquez is the man and like with hopkins its a true honor to see a true legend ending out the last lil bit of life he has in his career on top. Truely disgusting judging. I want them a fourth time. Marquez is his daddy and roach, Khan and arum all know it. They just sanmartiniano cash out on manny for one last fourth fight so he can lose to the legend instead of the embarrassment of losing in another fight.

IronDanHamza
11-15-2011, 03:13 PM
Not really i kept telling irondanza marquez was a terrible match up. He kept telling me he was too fat old and slow. Pacs too big. Same God damn excuse for the 2nd fight. Marquez is the ****ing man he would shatter khans chin at 140 as Khan gets too aggressive and marquez would exploit him. Embarass morales and maidana. Only person he cant beat is floyd whos just the worse possible style since he has to Chase him.

Marquez is the man and like with hopkins its a true honor to see a true legend ending out the last lil bit of life he has in his career on top. Truely disgusting judging. I want them a fourth time. Marquez is his daddy and roach, Khan and arum all know it. They just sanmartiniano cash out on manny for one last fourth fight so he can lose to the legend instead of the embarrassment of losing in another fight.

You checked the 'History Today' thread? I gave you major props in there.

As for the 4th fight. Do you really want to see Marquez get robbed again? I don't think I'll be able to watch it again knowing he can't win without the knock out.

IronDanHamza
11-15-2011, 03:19 PM
Anybody who has Marquez winning the 12th their scorecard has no credibility.

One of the judges scored the 12th for Marquez.

Then again his card was worryingly bad.

IronDanHamza
11-15-2011, 03:22 PM
lol wtf.....terrible cards

Relatively close rounds despite Marquez landing the cleaner harder punches in pretty all those rounds.

The Surgeon
11-15-2011, 03:56 PM
I scored it like this

1. 10-9 PAC
2. 10-9 JMM
3. 10-9 JMM
4. 10-9 JMM
5. 10-9 JMM
6. 10-9 PAC
7. 10-9 JMM
8. 10-9 JMM
9. 10-9 JMM
10. 10-9 JMM
11. 10-9 JMM
12. 10-9 PAC

117-111 JMM

There were a good few close rounds but 3 of those were also 1,6 & 12. Round 1 in particular

Juan was just better, he was far more comfortable with the fight and it was fought at a Marquez pace. I liked his classier shots and defence over Manny's volume and footwork

$BloodyNate$
11-15-2011, 04:01 PM
[QUOTE=IronDanHamza;11427811]You checked the 'History Today' thread? I gave you major props in there.

As for the 4th fight. Do you really want to see Marquez get robbed again? I don't think I'll be able to watch it again knowing he can't win without the knock out.





True and i really dont know If marquez has the energy for it after outting his heart in soul into this fight and be denied By the judges even tho he stayed on his feet this time.

Steak
11-15-2011, 07:19 PM
Just finished rewatching it, in very good quality. I actually changed my scoring to 115 to 113 for Pacquiao. Dont have an issue with a Marquez win, since there were plenty of close rounds with not much to choose from.

I think people mostly think that Marquez won because he landed a few more memorable shots that stick out in their minds, and had a few rounds that were very obvious...for example, the 5th round for Marquez was more one sided than any round Pacquiao won.

but on a round by round basis, Pacquiao landed a fair share of rounds. Pay attention to what actually lands, there are numerous quick darting left hands that Pacquiao lands cleanly, and even his right jabs sneak in a few times(although they dont do that much damage most the time, so I dont score many points for them).

notice also that a few of Marquez's counter punches and combos dont always land. for example, in the 6th round he throws a coutner right hand that appears to land cleanly, but in super slow motion it shows it only grazes and Pacquiao lands a clean right hook not long after.

My scorecard:

1-Pacquiao
2-Marquez
3-Pacquiao
4-Pacquiao
5-Marquez
6-Pacquiao
7-Marquez
8-Marquez
9-Marquez
10-Pacquiao
11-Pacquiao
12-Pacquiao

I thoguht Marquez looked substantially better in the first two fights, although he did exceed my expectations in this last one. Thought Marquez won the second, and the first I literally change my mind every time I watch it. some of those late rounds are so close.

Toyman
11-15-2011, 07:36 PM
Just finished rewatching it, in very good quality. I actually changed my scoring to 115 to 113 for Pacquiao. Dont have an issue with a Marquez win, since there were plenty of close rounds with not much to choose from.

I think people mostly think that Marquez won because he landed a few more memorable shots that stick out in their minds, and had a few rounds that were very obvious...for example, the 5th round for Marquez was more one sided than any round Pacquiao won.

but on a round by round basis, Pacquiao landed a fair share of rounds. Pay attention to what actually lands, there are numerous quick darting left hands that Pacquiao lands cleanly, and even his right jabs sneak in a few times(although they dont do that much damage most the time, so I dont score many points for them).

notice also that a few of Marquez's counter punches and combos dont always land. for example, in the 6th round he throws a coutner right hand that appears to land cleanly, but in super slow motion it shows it only grazes and Pacquiao lands a clean right hook not long after.

My scorecard:

1-Pacquiao
2-Marquez
3-Pacquiao
4-Pacquiao
5-Marquez
6-Pacquiao
7-Marquez
8-Marquez
9-Marquez
10-Pacquiao
11-Pacquiao
12-Pacquiao

I thoguht Marquez looked substantially better in the first two fights, although he did exceed my expectations in this last one. Thought Marquez won the second, and the first I literally change my mind every time I watch it. some of those late rounds are so close.

as i said, rewatching the fight and using slow motion will let you appreciate what pacquiao did in this fight.

i have exactly the same scorecared as you, but i gave 9 to pac - i had it even until pacquiao landed that massive left hand right at the end which sealed the deal.

also, round 2 in slow mo, shows jmm landing TWO (2)! punches the entire round, so very possible this was a 117-111 win for pacquiao.


the idea that pacquiao landed nothing cleanly is ridiculous, because jmms swollen and busted up face tells a very different story compared to pacquiaos unscratched [minus the headbutt] face.

GoogleMe
11-16-2011, 03:47 PM
Well - how is this fight any different to the last ones?

Scott9945
11-16-2011, 03:49 PM
Well - how is this fight any different to the last ones?

It wasn't as good to watch.

RyanMarque
11-16-2011, 09:10 PM
Well - how is this fight any different to the last ones?

marquez was went toe to toe with pac in the first 2

New England
11-17-2011, 10:59 PM
marquez was went toe to toe with pac in the first 2

not really

young_robbed
11-18-2011, 07:58 AM
Well - how is this fight any different to the last ones?

Marquez won more divisively

Marchegiano
11-19-2011, 05:30 PM
I just finished rewatching the fight. Mostly been pretty bored today, and the night of I felt pretty passionate for Juan. IMO in was much closer than I had previously felt. I still very much feel like Juan was robbed. It's been years since i've watched the other two fight so I won't get into comparing. My point is pretty simple. JMM and Pac make a great great match up. I honestly would like to see Juan and Manny 4 more than Mayweather and Pac. Giving all credit as I see it. Though JMM got screwed by judging that shouldn't fault the amount skill we were so blessed to see. I was never a Vitali fan until he fought Lewis. IMO that was his best fight. He really showed who he is which is more important then even a record or a belt. IMO one great, truly amazing, performance is the most valuable accomplishment one can have. People will remember and argue for years, and isn't that bigger then either fighter? Still I feel like I can't end this post with out saying once more Juan Manuel Marquez won that fight.

Separately Andy Bowen and Jack Burke probably wouldn't be remembered for much. If you know me half decently you know I'm well into LPRR and on back. One of the very first fights to really capture me was the Bowen-Burke 110 rounder. Neither fighter was a can for their day, and both had other great battles. Nothing either ever did would over shadow that event. It is more amazing than they. Of course I don't mean JMM-Pac is as legendary, but it is more so then any other match-up i've seen either with.

BennyST
11-21-2011, 09:14 PM
"

It was shocking.

I am however of the opinion now that that judges fail to see what good counter punchers are doing now a days. They are more adjusted to seeing "footwork" et all, than subtle counter punching. The subtle skills like setting up a trap, standing there yet neutralizing your opponent (in today's term running is the only defence).

The simple fact that there is more to boxing than jumping around the ring like a bunny rabbit has escaped most judges and fans.

But about the fight, I have seen many, and this was one of the best efforts I saw. I will always remember this effort of Marquez.

I honestly believe that it was this that won Pac the fight. He would bounce around, move sideways in the blink of an eye then back again, forward, back throw a jab or two all while Marquez basically kept making him rethink, reset, stop, think again, not punch and he did it all without all the pointless bouncing and hopping but simple circling to neutralise all of that supposedly greater footwork of Pac.

Pac looked like he was doing stuff yet when you look again he didn't land a punch, he didn't throw a meaningful punch and while he made Marquez look slow and sort of inactive at times, it was Marquez that was controlling the fight, the pace, the style, the ring and landing the more significant punches.

Lederman gave a round to Pac where, to me anyway, it looked like he didn't actually land anything but he bounced around a lot and Steward commented after the round when Harold gave it to Pac that Pac won it without doing anything because it looked like he was doing stuff through his comparatively hyperactive, yet pointless movement.

It's pretty sad though that I can see this clearly and professional judges at ringside can't. However, we all know that they can and do but are made to not notice it.

Amazing fight by Marquez. However, no matter how great it was he will still never have that W and Pac will never have that rightful L. Eventually it will be largely forgotten that Marquez even won it by most and it will go down in history as Pac having 2 of 3 wins with only a small few knowing any different. It's this aspect of it that I dislike more than anything. People will forget that Marquez won and will only see that technicality from the record that shows Pac being greater and the 'winner' of their trilogy. :nonono:

BennyST
11-21-2011, 09:16 PM
I just finished rewatching the fight. Mostly been pretty bored today, and the night of I felt pretty passionate for Juan. IMO in was much closer than I had previously felt. I still very much feel like Juan was robbed. It's been years since i've watched the other two fight so I won't get into comparing. My point is pretty simple. JMM and Pac make a great great match up. I honestly would like to see Juan and Manny 4 more than Mayweather and Pac. Giving all credit as I see it. Though JMM got screwed by judging that shouldn't fault the amount skill we were so blessed to see. I was never a Vitali fan until he fought Lewis. IMO that was his best fight. He really showed who he is which is more important then even a record or a belt. IMO one great, truly amazing, performance is the most valuable accomplishment one can have. People will remember and argue for years, and isn't that bigger then either fighter? Still I feel like I can't end this post with out saying once more Juan Manuel Marquez won that fight.

Separately Andy Bowen and Jack Burke probably wouldn't be remembered for much. If you know me half decently you know I'm well into LPRR and on back. One of the very first fights to really capture me was the Bowen-Burke 110 rounder. Neither fighter was a can for their day, and both had other great battles. Nothing either ever did would over shadow that event. It is more amazing than they. Of course I don't mean JMM-Pac is as legendary, but it is more so then any other match-up i've seen either with.

Why? If it's another close fight that Marquez wins again, it will still go to Pac. The only way for Marquez to win anything but a completely whitewash is for Pac to lose badly to Mayweather and have all the hype finally sucked out of it and the big money fight to be over so normal decisions can be made.

It really is pointless. Marquez cannot win.

BennyST
11-21-2011, 09:37 PM
finally, i'm not going to accuse marquez of anything but;
he looked night and day different from his last go at WW in terms of his body and his movement. night and day. if heredia is clean i think he did a terrific job.

A lot of people have been saying this and I have to disagree completely. He actually looked slower, more off balance and more bulky. He had a much better game plan and fought his fight because of the style.

Go watch the first couple of rounds against Mayweather and then the same thing against Pac. In the Mayweather fight he looks quicker and more balanced than he did against Pac.

BennyST
11-21-2011, 10:36 PM
Anyway, my score was closer than most but I still had Marquez sneaking it. I thought the 2nd fight was a clearer, better win for Marquez. Nonetheless, I still thought he won it clearly, but once again closely.

The whole 'must beat champion' argument doesn't work in this fight. Marquez was the champion in their 2nd fight and he lost, while, to my mind anyway, winning clearly but closely. I don't run with the 'Marquez needs to beat the champion and he slowed down in the championship rounds' so he deserves to lose. He won the championship rounds in their 2nd fight and closed well. He still lost and was champion no more.

I thought Marquez won the 11th, lost the 12th so I split the championship rounds anyway.

However, although they all were close fights and hard to split and everyone can argue for either guy winning only one fighter came out of three fights without a single loss. To me that shows bias that has nothing to do with being the champion.

You don't need to beat the champion today. You need to beat the money. It's much harder to beat the money, as Marquez has found out.

IronDanHamza
11-22-2011, 02:25 PM
A lot of people have been saying this and I have to disagree completely. He actually looked slower, more off balance and more bulky. He had a much better game plan and fought his fight because of the style.

Go watch the first couple of rounds against Mayweather and then the same thing against Pac. In the Mayweather fight he looks quicker and more balanced than he did against Pac.

I agree 100%

bojangles1987
11-22-2011, 02:29 PM
A lot of people have been saying this and I have to disagree completely. He actually looked slower, more off balance and more bulky. He had a much better game plan and fought his fight because of the style.

Go watch the first couple of rounds against Mayweather and then the same thing against Pac. In the Mayweather fight he looks quicker and more balanced than he did against Pac.

I agree. Didn't understand it in the lead up to the fight, and certainly didn't understand it during the fight. He was no different than against Mayweather, the difference was purely in the style matchup.

BigStereotype
11-22-2011, 03:48 PM
Anyway, my score was closer than most but I still had Marquez sneaking it. I thought the 2nd fight was a clearer, better win for Marquez. Nonetheless, I still thought he won it clearly, but once again closely.

The whole 'must beat champion' argument doesn't work in this fight. Marquez was the champion in their 2nd fight and he lost, while, to my mind anyway, winning clearly but closely. I don't run with the 'Marquez needs to beat the champion and he slowed down in the championship rounds' so he deserves to lose. He won the championship rounds in their 2nd fight and closed well. He still lost and was champion no more.

I thought Marquez won the 11th, lost the 12th so I split the championship rounds anyway.

However, although they all were close fights and hard to split and everyone can argue for either guy winning only one fighter came out of three fights without a single loss. To me that shows bias that has nothing to do with being the champion.

You don't need to beat the champion today. You need to beat the money. It's much harder to beat the money, as Marquez has found out.

I always thought that philosophy was moronic. Why do you need to win 12-0 to eek a draw? I think you should score a fight the way it's fought, not with any mystical "you need to beat a champion" nonsense.

New England
11-22-2011, 05:24 PM
A lot of people have been saying this and I have to disagree completely. He actually looked slower, more off balance and more bulky. He had a much better game plan and fought his fight because of the style.

Go watch the first couple of rounds against Mayweather and then the same thing against Pac. In the Mayweather fight he looks quicker and more balanced than he did against Pac.


i do not agree.

looking off balance is going to come with having a guy who uses footspeed like pacquiao and tries to turn the corner. floyd basically fights off of flat feet/the balls of his feet with small steps. if he had marquez off balance it was because he was hitting him with clean counters, not making him miss with blinding footspeed.

fighting floyd mayweather isnt going to make a lack of speed show up as much as it will against pacquiao.

as fast as floyd is (and his reflexes are better than pacquiao's, which is what really matters and why his speed is more effective,) manny has faster hands and much faster feet

we can agree to disagree
i think marquez looked a lot better than he did at his last go at WW both in terms of his performance and physically (he carried much less loose skin


i'm not saying it was heredia, or that he's on ped's
i'm just saying i think he looked better in his second fight at WW, which, outside of his age, shouldnt be much of a stretch.

joseph5620
11-22-2011, 11:16 PM
I agree. Didn't understand it in the lead up to the fight, and certainly didn't understand it during the fight. He was no different than against Mayweather, the difference was purely in the style matchup.

I agree. It's really just a sad attempt to discredit Mayweather's performance against Marquez. It doesn't even surprise me anymore when I see the comments on how the 2 years older Marquez was "better". I'm not buying it though.

The Surgeon
11-23-2011, 05:22 AM
Im with New England as far as Marquez looking better in his second fight at "WW". He looked awful vs Floyd MAINLY because Floyd is just flat out better than Pacquaio and indeed Marquez. But also because he hadnt came up the right way, he looked big but soft and though i only watched JMM vs PBF once i remember him being slower than vs Pacquaio who u would assume would make him look slower as Pacquaio has those blazing combinations and quick angle changes with the foot work.

Either way Floyd SHOULD be looking good off of the back of this fight, even if u had Manny winning it was nip and tuck, where as Mayweather Dominated and with ease.

Whenever im passing on some boxing knowledge to some young'un 30-40 years from now i'l make damn sure they know Juan Manuel Marquez whooped Manny Pacquaio's ass! Forget what the record books say son!

New England
11-23-2011, 02:22 PM
rewatched the fight on TV with nice definition

sound was up but only enough to get the atmosphere

i marked 3-4 very close rounds


i had marquez winning 8-4
even 9-3 isnt out of the question


if you gave manny the fight you were either more impressed than you should have been with his work (he didnt land many clean punches in any round,) or you were looking to give him rounds and gave him every close round



marquez beat manny pacquiao far more decisively in the last fight than either man had beaten the other in the first two fights

hell, it wasnt even very close on my cards.
you have to give manny every close round to even keep him in the fight.

Toyman
11-23-2011, 04:20 PM
After rewatching all 3 fights

pacquiao easily won them all

115-110
115-112
116-112

if you watch all 3 consecutively, you'll notice jmm was never even close to beating pacquiao except for the 3rd one, but pac reeled off the 4 last rounds for a wide 4 point win.

joseph5620
11-23-2011, 04:49 PM
After rewatching all 3 fights

pacquiao easily won them all

115-110
115-112
116-112

if you watch all 3 consecutively, you'll notice jmm was never even close to beating pacquiao except for the 3rd one, but pac reeled off the 4 last rounds for a wide 4 point win.




Absolutely ridiculous. Even if you scored all three for Pacquiao none of them were "easy" clear victories. Claiming Marquez " was never even close to beating Pacquiao" is beyond ridiculous.

Johnwoo8686
11-23-2011, 04:58 PM
After rewatching all 3 fights

pacquiao easily won them all

115-110
115-112
116-112

if you watch all 3 consecutively, you'll notice jmm was never even close to beating pacquiao except for the 3rd one, but pac reeled off the 4 last rounds for a wide 4 point win.

This is what they call Manny vision, where fans of Pacquiao simply focus on what he is doing and not on what his opponent is doing. If Marquez hadn't been knocked down in the first two fights he would've beaten Pacquiao easily. The first fight was a draw to me, the second fight was a draw/one point victory for Pacquiao, and this fight was a two point victory for Marquez.

studentofthegam
11-23-2011, 06:07 PM
I been trying to tell everybnody about my boy Marquez. He should go get Khan now.

IronDanHamza
11-23-2011, 08:04 PM
I been trying to tell everybnody about my boy Marquez. He should go get Khan now.

Props to you, Student.

You were one of the few that gave Marquez a legit chance.

IMDAZED
11-23-2011, 08:59 PM
I must eat my crow and admit I didn't expect Marquez to last into the late rounds, let alone win the fight in the eyes of many. Not the guy who I saw eating shots against Katsidis and then given that fraud of a tune-up against Ramos. I thought Marquez was slipping as far back as Diaz? Casamayor? Whichever came first. That was a splendid display of boxing against Paquiao but I'm still sorta confused. Am I the only one who thought Marquez looked like he slipped? In spite of his performance I think we saw an aged fighter in there. Something similar to Morales when he fought Maidana but not to that extent, obviously. I think the fact that Marquez has slowed and was still able to arguably beat Pacquiao shows he has ATG skill. I'm not sure, however, if he has an ATG resume. If you believe he won two of the three versus Manny, then yes he does.

SplitSecond
11-23-2011, 09:16 PM
I must eat my crow and admit I didn't expect Marquez to last into the late rounds, let alone win the fight in the eyes of many. Not the guy who I saw eating shots against Katsidis and then given that fraud of a tune-up against Ramos. I thought Marquez was slipping as far back as Diaz? Casamayor? Whichever came first. That was a splendid display of boxing against Paquiao but I'm still sorta confused. Am I the only one who thought Marquez looked like he slipped? In spite of his performance I think we saw an aged fighter in there. Something similar to Morales when he fought Maidana but not to that extent, obviously. I think the fact that Marquez has slowed and was still able to arguably beat Pacquiao shows he has ATG skill. I'm not sure, however, if he has an ATG resume. If you believe he won two of the three versus Manny, then yes he does.

but you've always been terrible at predictions, you can't read the fighter right, but it's cool cuz you make up for it with an honest opinion and all round good knowledge of the sport
:biggthump

IMDAZED
11-23-2011, 10:06 PM
but you've always been terrible at predictions, you can't read the fighter right, but it's cool cuz you make up for it with an honest opinion and all round good knowledge of the sport
:biggthump

I did misread Manny and I he drops a few notches in my book.

BigStereotype
11-24-2011, 01:57 PM
I been trying to tell everybnody about my boy Marquez. He should go get Khan now.

You and me both. Preach brother!

The Surgeon
11-24-2011, 02:52 PM
You and me both. Preach brother!

Yeah you were on the money with Marquez, you've really dropped the ball with Margarito tho player..... :nana:












I Hope....

IronDanHamza
11-24-2011, 05:10 PM
Yeah you were on the money with Marquez, you've really dropped the ball with Margarito tho player..... :nana:












I Hope....

BigStereoType's reasoning on making predictions;

The Mexican will win.

:lol1:

Just playing.

New England
11-25-2011, 10:41 AM
watched the fight for the third time.

marquez should have a UD over manny in the most lopsided fight of the series. if you really want to stretch things you can call it a draw. you have to really want to stretch things.

as with good portions of the first two fights, marquez was controlling the rounds. of course in those fights collectively marquez hit the canvas four times.
those were close fights. you cant really claim robbery in a close fight. scoring is subjective. that's just how it's gotta be.


glen trowbdridge scored 116 - 112 for manny in the third fight.
how the hell do you turn out that scorecard sitting with your damn arms on the ring apron? are you literally blind? is your house decked out in manny pacquiao **** and phillipino flags (which is fine, if you arent a judge)

or the more likely:
are you influenced by the money directly or indirectly?

how much money did you get directly? (unlikely, certainly, but stranger things have happened in boxing.)
or did you judge in top ranks favor to gain their favor later on down the line.

glen trowbridge judges lots of big fights
you hear buffer and lennon jr call his name out all the time

shady business, guys.

i've actually heard a good deal of references to the robbery in the non boxing media, however. they're often comical. it's nice to see marquez getting his name dropped period. the man deserves it.


marquez is definitely a monster, but manny reverted to patterns he had established in the first two fights, particularly II
he made a few changes, did manny, but certainly not enough for somebody like marquez. juan diaz made better adjustments against marquez (he looked to box and counter some.)


i thought manny would use his legs more. they looked to be the best in the sport against de la hoya. certainly not the most technical, but the most talented footwork in the game.
we saw shades of it against marquez in the third fight, but he wasnt able to sustain it.
cant say for sure, mostly because of how good he looked against margarito in terms of footwork, but i'd say manny's legs are showing their age.

LeG00N
11-25-2011, 11:18 AM
That's why I like the History section. For the most part you fellas can have a decent discussion with out the mindless trolling.

"if you want to know who won, just look at their faces" :pat:

BigStereotype
11-25-2011, 01:31 PM
BigStereoType's reasoning on making predictions;

The Mexican will win.

:lol1:

Just playing.

How'd my secret get out? I spent YEARS developing that formula! :p

SplitSecond
11-25-2011, 08:54 PM
watched the fight for the third time.

marquez should have a UD over manny in the most lopsided fight of the series. if you really want to stretch things you can call it a draw. you have to really want to stretch things.

as with good portions of the first two fights, marquez was controlling the rounds. of course in those fights collectively marquez hit the canvas four times.
those were close fights. you cant really claim robbery in a close fight. scoring is subjective. that's just how it's gotta be.


glen trowbdridge scored 116 - 112 for manny in the third fight.
how the hell do you turn out that scorecard sitting with your damn arms on the ring apron? are you literally blind? is your house decked out in manny pacquiao **** and phillipino flags (which is fine, if you arent a judge)

or the more likely:
are you influenced by the money directly or indirectly?

how much money did you get directly? (unlikely, certainly, but stranger things have happened in boxing.)
or did you judge in top ranks favor to gain their favor later on down the line.

glen trowbridge judges lots of big fights
you hear buffer and lennon jr call his name out all the time

shady business, guys.

i've actually heard a good deal of references to the robbery in the non boxing media, however. they're often comical. it's nice to see marquez getting his name dropped period. the man deserves it.


marquez is definitely a monster, but manny reverted to patterns he had established in the first two fights, particularly II
he made a few changes, did manny, but certainly not enough for somebody like marquez. juan diaz made better adjustments against marquez (he looked to box and counter some.)


i thought manny would use his legs more. they looked to be the best in the sport against de la hoya. certainly not the most technical, but the most talented footwork in the game.
we saw shades of it against marquez in the third fight, but he wasnt able to sustain it.
cant say for sure, mostly because of how good he looked against margarito in terms of footwork, but i'd say manny's legs are showing their age.
i agree the third was the closest fight of thr trilogy
i gave 1,3,6,9,10,11,12 to pacquiao
in your opinion, what round there do you say is definitely not a pacquiao round?

Toyman
11-26-2011, 02:13 PM
i agree the third was the closest fight of thr trilogy
i gave 1,3,6,9,10,11,12 to pacquiao
in your opinion, what round there do you say is definitely not a pacquiao round?

those are all pacquiao rounds, which means he won at least 7 - thing is, i think he also won round 4 pretty clearly.

it seems we have the same exact card except for round 4. i dont see how marquez won round 4 - he had an ok right hand at the end, and lost every second of the round before that

New England
11-27-2011, 10:40 AM
if i had the final word i'd change the thread to "tonight, marquez whipped up on that pacquiao azz"


i'm waiting for the bright yellow shirt that says "i beat manny pacquiao three times!"

marquez didn't lose that damn fight! he didnt get hit with the flush power punches and get into the exchanges that made the first two fights so close (even if/when marquez was in control in I and II, pacquiao's harder punches kept him in the fight)

he didnt lose the rounds
and he certainly didnt lose the fight

peoples champ

SplitSecond
11-27-2011, 03:48 PM
if i had the final word i'd change the thread to "tonight, marquez whipped up on that pacquiao azz"


i'm waiting for the bright yellow shirt that says "i beat manny pacquiao three times!"

marquez didn't lose that damn fight! he didnt get hit with the flush power punches and get into the exchanges that made the first two fights so close (even if/when marquez was in control in I and II, pacquiao's harder punches kept him in the fight)

he didnt lose the rounds
and he certainly didnt lose the fight

peoples champ

was this post meant to be random, or were you replying to someone?

New England
11-27-2011, 03:57 PM
was this post meant to be random, or were you replying to someone?

mostly a joke with truth in its undertones

SplitSecond
11-28-2011, 06:56 PM
those are all pacquiao rounds, which means he won at least 7 - thing is, i think he also won round 4 pretty clearly.

it seems we have the same exact card except for round 4. i dont see how marquez won round 4 - he had an ok right hand at the end, and lost every second of the round before that

actually, you're right, rd 4 was definitely a pacquiao round
and now i dont see how you could give it to marquez