View Full Version : Harry Greb No1 LHW?


Barn
10-30-2011, 01:06 PM
Could a case be made for this, I was looking through Grebs LHW resume and it really is quite remarkable.

He beat:
Kid Norfolk
Tommy Loughran x3
Maxie Rosenbloom
Went 1-1-3 against Tunney which could arguably have been 2-1-2.
Tommy Gibbons
Willie Meehan
Billy Miske
Jack Dillon
Battling Levinsky x6
Gunboat Smith
Mike Gibbons
Jack Delaney

He didn't hold the title but, he was "the man" in the division after beating Tunney and gaining the LHW belt so we can consider them the "lineal" champ and defended once against Loughran before contraversially losing it to Tunney the second time. The reason being Carpentier wasn't up for facing Greb while he was the best.

All while weighing over the MW limit.

IronDanHamza
10-30-2011, 02:29 PM
He's definitely one of the greatest LHW to lace them up.

I rank him at Middleweight but Greb is definitely one of the greatest Light Heavyweight's ever.

Barn
10-30-2011, 02:37 PM
He's definitely one of the greatest LHW to lace them up.

I rank him at Middleweight but Greb is definitely one of the greatest Light Heavyweight's ever.
He wasn't bad at middle either I suppose. :)

When you see great LHW's lists you got:

Tunney - Greb beat
Rosenbloon - Greb Beat
Gibbons - Greb beat
Loughran - Greb beat
Delaney - Greb beat
Dillon - Greb beat
King Levinsky - Greb Beat
Carpentier - Ducked Greb

McGoorty
10-30-2011, 03:10 PM
Be careful of rating those ND contests but mate,.. they are in no way official results, they were agreed upon that no result and many newspaper reports of the time reported the opinions straight from one fighters manager. This was due to a pathetic law in the early 1900's that almost killed boxing, it was only the diehard popularity of boxing that kept it afloat. I don't rate these ND bouts much at all, with Harry Greb I prefer to ignore all the ND results on Harry's record... that is his real record, I just think that 10 round fights are for fighters of a far lesser quality than greats like Greb. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thankfully Harry outlived the anti-boxing laws like the one that brought ND's about. The law was devised so that boxing in most states became almost exhibitions and many fight reports of these ND fights show many boring fights from un-motivated fighters, how discouraging the prospect of a half-fight must have been,........ I'm glad Darcy was spared those ND's (a small consolation,... but a consolation nonetheless). Greb is a very rare breed though, he seemed to have been motivated for thede fights than all of his contemporaries, Greb seems to have wanted to knockout everyone, he wasn't too successful in that........ One of Greb's losses must be put into context,.. having read that Mike Gibbons has a victory over Greb,,.. remember that Harry had just 12 to 14 fights,... he was a raw green kid in that first loss (I can't remember if that was a newspaper decision or not,... I just don't want to go through my paperwork at the moment).... I'm not trying to take anything from Mike, but he was not always a fighter for the crowds enjoyment, anyway if Mike was smiling after that 1st fight with Greb, he certainly didn't in their next meeting. As a MW I must rate Harry much higher than at LHW....... I don't think Greb would beat the Mongoose for example,... but I reckon he'd kill Roy Jones Jr......... How'd I do Barnburner ????

McGoorty
10-30-2011, 03:14 PM
He wasn't bad at middle either I suppose. :)

When you see great LHW's lists you got:

Tunney - Greb beat
Rosenbloon - Greb Beat
Gibbons - Greb beat
Loughran - Greb beat
Delaney - Greb beat
Dillon - Greb beat
King Levinsky - Greb Beat
Carpentier - Ducked Greb
When did Carpentier duck Greb ??.... it's just that it's news to me....... I'm gonna look up some sources for these fights you have listed, it seems that you have been already... maybe you're not just a pretty face.... lol...

Barn
10-30-2011, 03:15 PM
Be careful of rating those ND contests but mate,.. they are in no way official results, they were agreed upon that no result and many newspaper reports of the time reported the opinions straight from one fighters manager. This was due to a pathetic law in the early 1900's that almost killed boxing, it was only the diehard popularity of boxing that kept it afloat. I don't rate these ND bouts much at all, with Harry Greb I prefer to ignore all the ND results on Harry's record... that is his real record, I just think that 10 round fights are for fighters of a far lesser quality than greats like Greb. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thankfully Harry outlived the anti-boxing laws like the one that brought ND's about. The law was devised so that boxing in most states became almost exhibitions and many fight reports of these ND fights show many boring fights from un-motivated fighters, how discouraging the prospect of a half-fight must have been,........ I'm glad Darcy was spared those ND's (a small consolation,... but a consolation nonetheless). Greb is a very rare breed though, he seemed to have been motivated for thede fights than all of his contemporaries, Greb seems to have wanted to knockout everyone, he wasn't too successful in that........ One of Greb's losses must be put into context,.. having read that Mike Gibbons has a victory over Greb,,.. remember that Harry had just 12 to 14 fights,... he was a raw green kid in that first loss (I can't remember if that was a newspaper decision or not,... I just don't want to go through my paperwork at the moment).... I'm not trying to take anything from Mike, but he was not always a fighter for the crowds enjoyment, anyway if Mike was smiling after that 1st fight with Greb, he certainly didn't in their next meeting. As a MW I must rate Harry much higher than at LHW....... I don't think Greb would beat the Mongoose for example,... but I reckon he'd kill Roy Jones Jr......... How'd I do Barnburner ????
You have to take Newspaper reports into account to a certain exent though you can't just flat out ignore them and results form many newspapers would (for my money) be a lot more accurate than some of the judging I've seen.

McGoorty
10-30-2011, 03:15 PM
He's definitely one of the greatest LHW to lace them up.

I rank him at Middleweight but Greb is definitely one of the greatest Light Heavyweight's ever.
Just as well you rate him at MW... lol.

Greatest1942
10-30-2011, 03:30 PM
He wasn't bad at middle either I suppose. :)

When you see great LHW's lists you got:

Tunney - Greb beat
Rosenbloon - Greb Beat
Gibbons - Greb beat
Loughran - Greb beat
Delaney - Greb beat
Dillon - Greb beat
King Levinsky - Greb Beat
Carpentier - Ducked Greb

My standard is to rate one fighter in one division.However if I don't rate Greb at middle I will have him in the top 10 in the LHW.

McGoorty
10-30-2011, 03:31 PM
You have to take Newspaper reports into account to a certain exent though you can't just flat out ignore them and results form many newspapers would (for my money) be a lot more accurate than some of the judging I've seen.
Sure, I did state state that Greb usually went very hard at it in those fights. I just put Harry's ND fights aside, there is no doubt at all that Greb's record outshines most fighters even if you take those into account. I totally agree that judging in many fights was very bad and Greb treated ND fights seriously (unlike most)... take the fight where Fulton destroyed Langford in 6 rounds, I think that was supposed to be a 10 rd ND fight and maybe Sam was expecting Fred to just go through the motions, Langford treated that fight that way but Fred wanted to annihilate Sam..... and did. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think it's fair to say that many newspaper reports were fair, but I have read some real shockers. The best one I've ever read was "boxer major's" report of Darcy V McGoorty II,.... Boxer Major wrote some of the most passionate fight reports of them all..... You can smell the sweat and taste the blood,.. that fight report gets the hairs standing on the back of yer neck. have you read it ??...... I can post it for you if you want,.. I may have to edit one bit of non-p.c. from there..... Some of the language is not acceptable anymore, but it was 1915.

McGoorty
10-30-2011, 03:32 PM
My standard is to rate one fighter in one division.However if I don't rate Greb at middle I will have him in the top 10 in the LHW.
I'm pretty sure that you rate Greb Top 10 MW but..... he's a shoe in.

McGoorty
10-30-2011, 03:38 PM
You have to take Newspaper reports into account to a certain exent though you can't just flat out ignore them and results form many newspapers would (for my money) be a lot more accurate than some of the judging I've seen.
P.S...... as there were 299 ring appearances by Greb..... so that's my main reason for putting ND's aside... I won't live long enough to go through the reports of 299 fights, as it is he had about 150 fights that had official results, and of course I include all of Greb's TKO's and KO's whether ND's or not,... It's hard to tell which one's were ND's as there were some states where 20 round fights were legal.

McGoorty
10-30-2011, 04:06 PM
GREB DEFEATS WILSON
Hawera & Normanby Star, Volume XLII, 3 September 1923, Page 8
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GREB DEFEATS WILSON
NEW YORK, Aug. 31
Harry Greb became the middle-weight champion of the world by defeating J»hnny Wilson in a fifteen round bout, in which the victor had a shade of the advantage in the last eight rounds. It was a spirited contest, both men fighting at close quarters and assimilating much punishment.

McGoorty
10-30-2011, 04:08 PM
WORLD'S CHAMPIONS.
NZ Truth , 7 February 1925, Page 10
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WORLD'S CHAMPIONS.
All "Americans." In answer to a correspondent the following list of world's champions is given. According to America they are all Yankees, whether they were born m Italy, Peru 'or Siberia matters not: Jack Dempsey, heavyweight. Mike McTigue, light-heavyweight. Harry Greb, middleweight. Mickey Walker, welterweight Pinkie Mitchell, junior welterweight. Benny Leonard, lightweight. Kid Kaplan, featherweight. Eddie Martin, bantamweight.

McGoorty
10-30-2011, 04:09 PM
WORLD'S CHAMPIONS.
NZ Truth , 7 February 1925, Page 10
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WORLD'S CHAMPIONS.
All "Americans." In answer to a correspondent the following list of world's champions is given. According to America they are all Yankees, whether they were born m Italy, Peru 'or Siberia matters not: Jack Dempsey, heavyweight. Mike McTigue, light-heavyweight. Harry Greb, middleweight. Mickey Walker, welterweight Pinkie Mitchell, junior welterweight. Benny Leonard, lightweight. Kid Kaplan, featherweight. Eddie Martin, bantamweight.
Who the hell is Pinkie Mitchell and Eddie martin ???

McGoorty
10-30-2011, 04:11 PM
THE GAME IN AMERICA
Evening Post, Volume CX, Issue 22, 25 July 1925, Page 20
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THE GAME IN AMERICA
(ItEUTER'S TELIOIUM.)
NEW YORK, 23rd July,
Floyd Fitzsimmons, the boxing promoter, announces from Chicago that Dempsey has approved a bout with Harry Ureb, middleweight champion. Fitzsimmons states that his talked with Dempsey over the telephone. The heavyweight approved of the bout, and Fitzsimmons then telephoned to Mason, Greb's manager, to discuss details. The promoter wants to stage the bout on 10th or 26th September. It will be held at Michigan City, and will be ten rounds, with the heavyweight title at stake.
Charley Rosenberg, the world's bantamweight champion, knocked out Eddie Shea, of Chicago, in the fourth round of a fifteen-round match for the title.

McGoorty
10-30-2011, 04:13 PM
A NEW MIDDLE-WEIGHT.
NZ Truth , Issue 656, 12 January 1918, Page 8
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A NEW MIDDLE-WEIGHT.
«7 Harry Greb, Pittburg's pride m the middle-weight division, has been knocking opponents stiff and has been defeating
them on points with such regularity that he/*' now looms as the only possible oppojiefrt of class for Mike Gibbons. The great St. Paul boxer has whipped most of the others. He's so good that a rriatch with mostv of those m his class doesn't sound a bit good to the average promoter.
In Greb, however, there is a youth who seems unbeatable. He has come along -so; .-.fast, of late and seems to be so good that it seems logical for him to pick on Mike.
ii^Several stabs at such a match has been made by Pittsburg: and other promoters, but it hasn't been made attractive enough yet for Mike. Gibbons is growing, out of the fight game. to a certain extent, partly because his brother JTp.ni looks perfectly able, to take care of the family reputation, and partly because Mike is reaching a point where he doesn't want to get ready to fight. His business interests have grown big and he, would be content to drop the ring game and take care of them exclusively. /^Promoters- have btsen looking for a long. Time 1 for some one to' send against Mike who would be able to make it interesting for the famous Irishman, but no one has appeared who looks the, part. Soldier Bartfield's cries for a matchi haven't been taken seriously, for the soldier can't be considered m the same breath with Gibbons, m spite of the fact that he once gained a newspaper decision over Gibbons. Mike O'Dowd thinks he wants ar-match with Gibbons, and several promoters are said to have made tempting offers for the mill, but it is probable thisi match never will be made. Mike prac-/ tically taught O'Dowd everything the
latter knows about fighting, and has sentimental reasons for not wanting to tangle with the latest St. Paul sensation.
All deductions bring the promoters face to face with a match that will have as one of its principals Greb and as the other Gibbons. The early winter will see great activity looking toward such an encounter.
Greb's record m the last few months holds victories, among others, over Jack Dillon and Battling Lovinsky, the two ferocious light heavy-weights. Dillon was scarcely able to lay a glove on the elusive Pittsburger, while Levlnsky was given the scrap of his eventful life.
Greb recently made his first fight before a new york audience, and he sent them home marvelling after stopping Jack London m the ninth round. The original match was with the Zulu Kid, but he didn't show up, and London was substituted.
Greb has an awkward, apparently clumsy, style m the ring. He flounders around pounding the air with his fists, but he has the knack of hitting straight m spite of all his seeming inability to stand up straight. His method of milling is disconcerting to many of his opponents. Pittsburg goes en masse, to see him fight, and laughs at his funny efforts, but is ready to mortgage everything and bet it on. its favorite son when he goes into action no matter who is selected to oppose him.

McGoorty
10-30-2011, 04:21 PM
LES DARCY.
NZ Truth , Issue 616, 31 March 1917, Page 11. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have just posted the part of the article on the first Gibbons V Greb bout (keep in mind how green Harry was).... here is that excerpt.........---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mike took a run over to Philadelphia on February 10, and, engaged in a sixround bout with a middleweight named Harry Greb, a dangerous, but not too clever, youngster of the Quaker City. Qibbons worked like a master, and gave the Philadelphian a neat trimming. Greb got in a hard punch in the first round that cut the bridge of Mike's nose, and In the fourth, in which Greb gave all he had, he puffed Gibbons's ear with a hard right. But most of the time he was taking every kind of blow that Qibbons could shoot at him. Greb's wild swings kept Mike stepping Inside, and at close quarters he dealt out a lot of punishment with snappy jolts of the right hand that, at times, had the Philadelphia boxer wobbly. In the first round Mike put a short /left on the Jaw and caught the tilting head with a right that took Greb on the jaw and made his knees sag. He did not go down, but he was near it. In the fifth, Mike again crossed Qreb on the jaw and made him reel giddily around the ring. He weathered this storm, too, and in the final frame was saved from dropping, by clinching at his opponent after another of Mike's crosses had caught him on the chin.
Tom Gibbons, Mike's brother, had an easy time defeating Bob Moha In a tenround bout at Milwaukee on February 6. and bids fair to take a place In the front row of the middlewelghts alongside his more famous brother.
Mick King seems to have got into the Darcy camp in America, because a writer from ***8226;Frisco states that Mick King Is In New York, and Joe Branigan, a New York manager, 1$ wondering whether he is managing King or not. Joe took Mick, when he reached New Vork

McGoorty
10-30-2011, 04:31 PM
PUG PARS.
NZ Truth , Issue 888, 2 December 1922, Page 8....... Here's Willard talking about Greb.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------The flashy Frenchman's defeat by Siki at least did not surprise one man. That man or mountain was Jess Willartf. Said he to a newspaper man Just after the sensational -fight: "CarpentleVs defeat was no surprise to me. There are several good boys In this country who could have taken his measure had they been given the chance. Harry Greb could "beat Carpentier EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK". The French Idol was built up to meet Dempsey. He gained a lot of notoriety, but never beat anybody. His conqueror will be hailed as a wonder man, but he will have to beat some other good man before his real worth as a fighter will be known. I have always contended that Dempsey didn't accomplish any great feat when he whipped Carpentier. Now that the Frenchman has been beaten, the present heavyweight champion will have to scratch his name off the -list, and it brings the day and date he. will have to meet me a little closer. Jack Kearns had his plans laid to go to Paris or London and defeat Carpentier once before the Frenchman re 7 tired,............................. etc.... goes on about Carpentier,,,, he did thrash Ted Kid Lewis.... of course he was much bigger so delete that.. lol.

McGoorty
10-30-2011, 04:32 PM
https://www.google.com/url?url=http://news.google.com/newspapers%3Fid%3DLwRTAAAAIBAJ%26sjid%3DvzcNAAAAIB AJ%26pg%3D5341,2661330%26dq%3Dharry%2Bgreb%2Btommy %2Bgibbons%26hl%3Den&rct=j&sa=X&ei=fa2tTvSFNurxmAX-rb3hDQ&ved=0CDQQ-AsoATAA&q=Harry+Greb+Tommy+Gibbons&usg=AFQjCNEgVsdeRib_TTuoHdHcUGzgO5zjww

McGoorty
10-30-2011, 04:33 PM
I do have some history credentials.

DarkTerror88
10-30-2011, 10:28 PM
Ezzard Charles cannot be denied his throne at LHW.

JAB5239
10-31-2011, 02:50 AM
An argument can be made but I wouldn't place him at the 1 spot. Pound for pound is a different story though.

McGoorty
10-31-2011, 04:08 AM
Ezzard Charles cannot be denied his throne at LHW.
That's what I call ADAMANT.

JAB5239
10-31-2011, 05:04 AM
That's what I call ADAMANT.

I gotta roll with DT88 on that one. For years I had Foster at number one, but I based it on h2h. As far as resume goes I think it's tough to argue against Charles. Like I said, arguments can be made, but a more convincing one than for Ez I have yet to see. It could happen and would be interesting, but for now Im also sticking with the Cincinnati Cobra.

0r1g1nal S1n
10-31-2011, 05:09 AM
Hard to compare the old guys like Greb and Charles with the new lhw's like Roy Jones and B-Hop. Different era's totally. Greb and Archie Moore are probably the greatest in terms of achievement though.

JAB5239
10-31-2011, 05:18 AM
Hard to compare the old guys like Greb and Charles with the new lhw's like Roy Jones and B-Hop. Different era's totally. Greb and Archie Moore are probably the greatest in terms of achievement though.

But not skill and dominance?

I gotta disagree my man. Competition determines how one fighter compares to another. Head to head Im not saying they are or are not better. But it's undeniable they fought better fighters and many more times. We can't say with certainty how Roy or Hop would fare fighting that often against that high a skill level of fighters, but we know for a fact how Greb and more did.

GJC
10-31-2011, 07:57 AM
Archie Moore
Ezzard Charles
Sam Langford
Gene Tunney
Bob Foster
Tommy Loughran
Michael Spinks
Bob Fitzsimmons
Billy Conn
Roy Jones, Jr.
Maxie Rosenbloom
John Henry Lewis
Harry Greb
Tommy Gibbons
Philadelphia Jack O***8217;Brien
Jack Dillon
Harold Johnson
Jimmy Bivins
Georges Carpentier
Battling Levinsky

That's IBRO's all time list at LHW.
Like Archie being at number one but could argue a fair bit of the rest but you have to give IBRO a hearing and some respect IMO.
Personally I can't put Greb at 1 but I think a good case can be made for top 5. He beat 6 of their top 20 and as big a fan as I am of Loughran I can't see him 6 places above Greb on either resume or certainly H2H

McGoorty
10-31-2011, 08:59 AM
I gotta roll with DT88 on that one. For years I had Foster at number one, but I based it on h2h. As far as resume goes I think it's tough to argue against Charles. Like I said, arguments can be made, but a more convincing one than for Ez I have yet to see. It could happen and would be interesting, but for now Im also sticking with the Cincinnati Cobra.
I have no problem with that,.. be we are surely agreed that these questions are rarely cut and dried, boxing does not have any "Bradmans"... or "Lindrums" in it... i.e.... someone who is absolutely twice as good as #2.... they were that good..... I rate them as the most invincible of the invincible in all sport. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- But unlike Lindrum in billiards, nobody was throwing punches (read, equalizers),.... although Bradman was having the odd cricket ball coming at his skull at 100 miles per hour,,... and no protection.... actually a cricket ball can kill as easily as a punch,... but I am diverging a bit, but the point being is that Bradman has hard and fast statistics to back up his godlike status, boxing is different to most sports,... the level of ambiguity in boxing is like no other, it's fun to discuss this but.... I think Charles may have struggled against Tunney for instance.

McGoorty
10-31-2011, 09:03 AM
Archie Moore
Ezzard Charles
Sam Langford
Gene Tunney
Bob Foster
Tommy Loughran
Michael Spinks
Bob Fitzsimmons
Billy Conn
Roy Jones, Jr.
Maxie Rosenbloom
John Henry Lewis
Harry Greb
Tommy Gibbons
Philadelphia Jack O***8217;Brien
Jack Dillon
Harold Johnson
Jimmy Bivins
Georges Carpentier
Battling Levinsky

That's IBRO's all time list at LHW.
Like Archie being at number one but could argue a fair bit of the rest but you have to give IBRO a hearing and some respect IMO.
Personally I can't put Greb at 1 but I think a good case can be made for top 5. He beat 6 of their top 20 and as big a fan as I am of Loughran I can't see him 6 places above Greb on either resume or certainly H2H
I know of a MW who'd beat some of those names there,.. gee I have a lot more work to do.

McGoorty
10-31-2011, 09:05 AM
I know of a MW who'd beat some of those names there,.. gee I have a lot more work to do.
Actually on his best night he may be capable of beating any of them, I hate death.

BennyST
10-31-2011, 09:56 AM
Hard to compare the old guys like Greb and Charles with the new lhw's like Roy Jones and B-Hop. Different era's totally. Greb and Archie Moore are probably the greatest in terms of achievement though.

Interesting view. You think Moore wasn't particularly skilled like today's fighters? Charles? No?

I've got to say that when I look at Moore and Charles especially at LHW, I see nothing but pure skill. They were idols of some of the greats of today, including Hopkins and Toney specifically because of that skill they showed.

It sucks to watch something in black and white, but check it out again and really watch the small things they do. Charles for me is the greatest, along with Moore. Then definitely Greb is up there, along with others like Foster, Jones blah blah.

I can understand the Greb comparison as we have no video footage of him. Charles however is about as modern as they come and in terms of pure skill makes 99% of champions today look like Margarito. He had everything. Power, speed, counterpunch, defence, lead, jab, footwork.....he was the consummate boxer/puncher.

Greatest1942
10-31-2011, 03:06 PM
Interesting view. You think Moore wasn't particularly skilled like today's fighters? Charles? No?

I've got to say that when I look at Moore and Charles especially at LHW, I see nothing but pure skill. They were idols of some of the greats of today, including Hopkins and Toney specifically because of that skill they showed.

It sucks to watch something in black and white, but check it out again and really watch the small things they do. Charles for me is the greatest, along with Moore. Then definitely Greb is up there, along with others like Foster, Jones blah blah.

I can understand the Greb comparison as we have no video footage of him. Charles however is about as modern as they come and in terms of pure skill makes 99% of champions today look like Margarito. He had everything. Power, speed, counterpunch, defence, lead, jab, footwork.....he was the consummate boxer/puncher.

True. I have seldom seen a boxer with more pure skills than Ezzard...the guy could do it all. And the good thing once he moved up, he still did well.

Also have to mention here that even on those old *****ty films Tunney looks awesome. He looks great and in a H2H matchup I rank him pretty high.

McGoorty
11-01-2011, 01:43 AM
True. I have seldom seen a boxer with more pure skills than Ezzard...the guy could do it all. And the good thing once he moved up, he still did well.

Also have to mention here that even on those old *****ty films Tunney looks awesome. He looks great and in a H2H matchup I rank him pretty high.
I think on film, Tunney's fight with Carpentier, Gene was awesome on that day. It proved to me that Tunney was indeed a master,.... and I agree with his opinions on a certain MW.