View Full Version : Where do you rank Harold Johnson at Heavyweight?


IronDanHamza
10-30-2011, 01:45 PM
Where do you rank Harold Johnson as a Heavyweight?

Many people are unaware that he had a fair share of Heavyweight fights and actually has a pretty solid resume as a Heavyweight.

He obviously never won a Title at HW, being pretty difficult to do so back then. But he racked up some very good wins ***8216;above 175***8217;.

Of course, it***8217;s a tricky one to rank, with no Cruiserweight division at that particular time; if you couldn***8217;t make 175 you had no choice but to fight Heavyweight***8217;s.

In result, meaning he fought plenty of bouts that were ***8216;officially***8217; Heavyweight bouts that were pretty much Light Heavyweight fights.

For example, his wins over;

Ezzard Charles (Charles weighed in at 185, Johnson at 177)
Jimmy Bivins ( Bivins weighed in at 180, Johnson at 177)
Bob Satterfield 3 (Satterfield weighed in at 181, Johnson at 180)
Jimmy Slade x2 (Slade weighed in at 177 and 182, Johnson at 178 and 175 and a half)
Marty Marshall (Mashall weighed in at 179, Johnson at 174)

Now, personally, I credit most of these wins to his Light Heavyweight resume. Especially the ones against career Light Hevayweight***8217;s like himself.

Some do it this way, some don***8217;t and that***8217;s fine.

Some feel that if a fighter is over the weight limit then it***8217;s point blank credited to that weight, some like myself feel that if it***8217;s close and basically at that weight then they credit it to that weight. Especially if they***8217;re a career weight fighting another from that career weight. Of course things are different now.

Like I said, it***8217;s tricky because certain people credit things different. I remember a thread recently I can***8217;t remember who it was by but it was about the difficulty in crediting fights that are close to the weight but ***8216;officially***8217; in a different weight class I.e Duran, and Ortiz sometimes.

Anyway, I***8217;m rambling. Let***8217;s just say for arguments sake, credit those ***8216;official***8217; Heavyweight to his Heavyweight resume. Where do you rank him?

Let***8217;s not forget his excellent wins over Nino Valdez and Eddie Machen. Two of the very best wins on the great Sonny Liston***8217;s resume.

Take into consideration he was outweighed 12 Lbs in the Machen fight and an astonishing 34 Lbs in the Valdez fight.

His resume at ***8216;Heavyweight***8217; (By crediting all fights above 175as ***8216;Heavyweight***8217;;

Ezzard Charles
Jimmy Bivins
Nino Valdez
Eddie Machen
Bob Satterfield
Marty Marhsall
Jimmy Sladex2
Etc

That***8217;s an impressive resume in my book.

The freak accident injury occurred in his fight with Joe Walcott, causing him to lose by a 3rd Round TKO. Allegedly being a closely contested fight despite the Heavy KD in the Second Round. Shame the fight was put to a halt so early and no rematch occurred.

He was also scheduled to fight Sonny Liston but had to withdraw through injury. Let***8217;s just say I think that injury was one hell of a blessing in disguise... Because the thought of Johnson trying to jab with Liston genuinely frightens me.

Anyway, again, I***8217;m rambling. Back to the point;

Where do you rank him at Heavyweight?

Is he one of the the best Heavyweight***8217;s to not win a title?

In what bracket do you feel he should be ranked?

Barn
10-30-2011, 02:52 PM
Where do you rank Harold Johnson as a Heavyweight?

Many people are unaware that he had a fair share of Heavyweight fights and actually has a pretty solid resume as a Heavyweight.

He obviously never won a Title at HW, being pretty difficult to do so back then. But he racked up some very good wins ‘above 175’.

Of course, it’s a tricky one to rank, with no Cruiserweight division at that particular time; if you couldn’t make 175 you had no choice but to fight Heavyweight’s.

In result, meaning he fought plenty of bouts that were ‘officially’ Heavyweight bouts that were pretty much Light Heavyweight fights.

For example, his wins over;

Ezzard Charles (Charles weighed in at 185, Johnson at 177)
Jimmy Bivins ( Bivins weighed in at 180, Johnson at 177)
Bob Satterfield 3 (Satterfield weighed in at 181, Johnson at 180)
Jimmy Slade x2 (Slade weighed in at 177 and 182, Johnson at 178 and 175 and a half)
Marty Marshall (Mashall weighed in at 179, Johnson at 174)

Now, personally, I credit most of these wins to his Light Heavyweight resume. Especially the ones against career Light Hevayweight’s like himself.

Some do it this way, some don’t and that’s fine.

Some feel that if a fighter is over the weight limit then it’s point blank credited to that weight, some like myself feel that if it’s close and basically at that weight then they credit it to that weight. Especially if they’re a career weight fighting another from that career weight. Of course things are different now.

Like I said, it’s tricky because certain people credit things different. I remember a thread recently I can’t remember who it was by but it was about the difficulty in crediting fights that are close to the weight but ‘officially’ in a different weight class I.e Duran, and Ortiz sometimes.

Anyway, I’m rambling. Let’s just say for arguments sake, credit those ‘official’ Heavyweight to his Heavyweight resume. Where do you rank him?

Let’s not forget his excellent wins over Nino Valdez and Eddie Machen. Two of the very best wins on the great Sonny Liston’s resume.

Take into consideration he was outweighed 12 Lbs in the Machen fight and an astonishing 34 Lbs in the Valdez fight.

His resume at ‘Heavyweight’ (By crediting all fights above 175as ‘Heavyweight’;

Ezzard Charles
Jimmy Bivins
Nino Valdez
Eddie Machen
Bob Satterfield
Marty Marhsall
Jimmy Sladex2
Etc

That’s an impressive resume in my book.

The freak accident injury occurred in his fight with Joe Walcott, causing him to lose by a 3rd Round TKO. Allegedly being a closely contested fight despite the Heavy KD in the Second Round. Shame the fight was put to a halt so early and no rematch occurred.

He was also scheduled to fight Sonny Liston but had to withdraw through injury. Let’s just say I think that injury was one hell of a blessing in disguise... Because the thought of Johnson trying to jab with Liston genuinely frightens me.

Anyway, again, I’m rambling. Back to the point;

Where do you rank him at Heavyweight?

Is he one of the the best Heavyweight’s to not win a title?

In what bracket do you feel he should be ranked?
He's got a good resume of very solid contenders I think he should be around the 30 mark. A little lower than the likes of Baer etc.

IronDanHamza
10-30-2011, 05:26 PM
He's got a good resume of very solid contenders I think he should be around the 30 mark. A little lower than the likes of Baer etc.

Yeah he's certainly below Max Baer.

He has a win over argubally the best win on Rocky Marciano's resume.

Considering he never even reached the Crusier Weight Limit and fought most of his fights not even really close to the Cruiser weight limit his 'Heavyweight' resume is very impressive.

Perfect Plex
10-30-2011, 05:36 PM
Should he rank higher than David Tua at HW?

IronDanHamza
10-30-2011, 05:54 PM
Should he rank higher than David Tua at HW?

Hmmm, I'm not sure!

What do you think?

McGoorty
10-30-2011, 06:05 PM
Hmmm, I'm not sure!

What do you think?
LOL... Dan, this thread reminds me of some banter we had some time back... lol,.. I still have a chuckle about that... I was testing your sense of humour..... seriously, I don't think at realistic ranking can be made here.... Unless the boxing equivalent of professor Alfred Einstein comes along that is.... I think Professor Mike Donovan can't match Alfred's I.Q... what do you reckon ??

IronDanHamza
10-30-2011, 06:19 PM
LOL... Dan, this thread reminds me of some banter we had some time back... lol,.. I still have a chuckle about that... I was testing your sense of humour..... seriously, I don't think at realistic ranking can be made here.... Unless the boxing equivalent of professor Alfred Einstein comes along that is.... I think Professor Mike Donovan can't match Alfred's I.Q... what do you reckon ??

Why not?

When was that banter? :lol1: My memory is really getting worse by the day.

McGoorty
10-30-2011, 06:27 PM
Why not?

When was that banter? :lol1: My memory is really getting worse by the day.
Oh, I jokingly said that I didn't know this Harold Johnson dude...... knowing full well he is one of your favourites.... ah, memories...... Why can't I rate him at HW ????.... well let's just say there are a hell of a load of decent HW's..... I just won't live long enough to get close to a realistic top 50 or 100..... there are limits to my genius you know !!!!!!!!!!!!!... lol.

McGoorty
10-30-2011, 06:29 PM
Why not?

When was that banter? :lol1: My memory is really getting worse by the day.
Yeah, well anyway, if you give me some names to compare I may have a go.... for starters, I have him below Bob Fitzsimmons////// ba-da-bing.

IronDanHamza
10-30-2011, 06:38 PM
Yeah, well anyway, if you give me some names to compare I may have a go.... for starters, I have him below Bob Fitzsimmons////// ba-da-bing.

Oh, I jokingly said that I didn't know this Harold Johnson dude...... knowing full well he is one of your favourites.... ah, memories...... Why can't I rate him at HW ????.... well let's just say there are a hell of a load of decent HW's..... I just won't live long enough to get close to a realistic top 50 or 100..... there are limits to my genius you know !!!!!!!!!!!!!... lol.

:lol1: :lol1: I genuinely can't remember that, mate. My memory is really deteriorating it's abit worrying.

Yeah, of course there are plenty of better Heavyweight's than Johnson, plenty.

But he has some pretty good wins there, no?

Not sure who he'd be around but I'd say he's atleast Top 40.

McGoorty
10-30-2011, 06:53 PM
:lol1: :lol1: I genuinely can't remember that, mate. My memory is really deteriorating it's abit worrying.

Yeah, of course there are plenty of better Heavyweight's than Johnson, plenty.

But he has some pretty good wins there, no?

Not sure who he'd be around but I'd say he's atleast Top 40.
Well I hope your memory is OK.... We must rate Harold as a tough customer among any competition, he is remembered as on of the hardest fighters of his era. harold was a magnificent specimen, lone look at Johnson and you KNOW he's a fighter,.. no need for tattoos,... Harold Johnson would scare a Hells Angel to death with a glance in their direction,..... he is not however a very big HW, I would have hated to see him in with Frazier or Foreman....... I wouldn't want to see that, I'd look forward to that less than James Toney vs Randy Coutoure,.....

Capaedia
10-31-2011, 04:14 AM
Within 30 places of Liston.

;)

GJC
10-31-2011, 09:06 AM
Where do you rank Harold Johnson as a Heavyweight?

Many people are unaware that he had a fair share of Heavyweight fights and actually has a pretty solid resume as a Heavyweight.

He obviously never won a Title at HW, being pretty difficult to do so back then. But he racked up some very good wins ***8216;above 175***8217;.

Of course, it***8217;s a tricky one to rank, with no Cruiserweight division at that particular time; if you couldn***8217;t make 175 you had no choice but to fight Heavyweight***8217;s.

In result, meaning he fought plenty of bouts that were ***8216;officially***8217; Heavyweight bouts that were pretty much Light Heavyweight fights.

For example, his wins over;

Ezzard Charles (Charles weighed in at 185, Johnson at 177)
Jimmy Bivins ( Bivins weighed in at 180, Johnson at 177)
Bob Satterfield 3 (Satterfield weighed in at 181, Johnson at 180)
Jimmy Slade x2 (Slade weighed in at 177 and 182, Johnson at 178 and 175 and a half)
Marty Marshall (Mashall weighed in at 179, Johnson at 174)

Now, personally, I credit most of these wins to his Light Heavyweight resume. Especially the ones against career Light Hevayweight***8217;s like himself.

Some do it this way, some don***8217;t and that***8217;s fine.

Some feel that if a fighter is over the weight limit then it***8217;s point blank credited to that weight, some like myself feel that if it***8217;s close and basically at that weight then they credit it to that weight. Especially if they***8217;re a career weight fighting another from that career weight. Of course things are different now.

Like I said, it***8217;s tricky because certain people credit things different. I remember a thread recently I can***8217;t remember who it was by but it was about the difficulty in crediting fights that are close to the weight but ***8216;officially***8217; in a different weight class I.e Duran, and Ortiz sometimes.

Anyway, I***8217;m rambling. Let***8217;s just say for arguments sake, credit those ***8216;official***8217; Heavyweight to his Heavyweight resume. Where do you rank him?

Let***8217;s not forget his excellent wins over Nino Valdez and Eddie Machen. Two of the very best wins on the great Sonny Liston***8217;s resume.

Take into consideration he was outweighed 12 Lbs in the Machen fight and an astonishing 34 Lbs in the Valdez fight.

His resume at ***8216;Heavyweight***8217; (By crediting all fights above 175as ***8216;Heavyweight***8217;;

Ezzard Charles
Jimmy Bivins
Nino Valdez
Eddie Machen
Bob Satterfield
Marty Marhsall
Jimmy Sladex2
Etc

That***8217;s an impressive resume in my book.

The freak accident injury occurred in his fight with Joe Walcott, causing him to lose by a 3rd Round TKO. Allegedly being a closely contested fight despite the Heavy KD in the Second Round. Shame the fight was put to a halt so early and no rematch occurred.

He was also scheduled to fight Sonny Liston but had to withdraw through injury. Let***8217;s just say I think that injury was one hell of a blessing in disguise... Because the thought of Johnson trying to jab with Liston genuinely frightens me.

Anyway, again, I***8217;m rambling. Back to the point;

Where do you rank him at Heavyweight?

Is he one of the the best Heavyweight***8217;s to not win a title?

In what bracket do you feel he should be ranked?
Jeez Dan much as I applaud your championing of a vastly under rated fighter you are never going to try and shoe horn Harold in a top 10 HW list are you? :)
Think with today's weigh in rules most of the fights you quoted would have been comfortably at light heavy

McGoorty
10-31-2011, 10:20 AM
Jeez Dan much as I applaud your championing of a vastly under rated fighter you are never going to try and shoe horn Harold in a top 10 HW list are you? :)
Think with today's weigh in rules most of the fights you quoted would have been comfortably at light heavy
I gotta agree about the HW bit, I applaud Dan for this too, sometimes I say things about Darcy just to get some discussion about him, you know what they say about publicity don't you. I just wish I had more film of him, but I also wish the LHW's didn't fight HW's as a rule and the LHW division is hard to rate because of P4P fighters like Langford who made appearances at LHW and above,... there is a lot of Fitzsimmons like characters there, and darcy would have ruled the LHW's if he'd have lived too, at least that was the general consensus among writers and others back in those days.

IronDanHamza
10-31-2011, 01:32 PM
:lol1:

Guys, you seem to have the wrong end of the stick. I am not trying to claim that Harold Johnson is a Top 10 HW or an ATG Heavyweight. Or even close for that matter.

I'm just asking with the resume he has there which is atleast solid, where does he rank?

Top 40? Lower? Higher? Where about's?

I'd say around Top 40 personally although I don't have my Top 50 HW's on hand. Just a rough estimate.

This is along with ranking all his 'offical' Heavyweight fights to that heavyweight resume. For arguments sake.

IronDanHamza
10-31-2011, 01:36 PM
Jeez Dan much as I applaud your championing of a vastly under rated fighter you are never going to try and shoe horn Harold in a top 10 HW list are you? :)
Think with today's weigh in rules most of the fights you quoted would have been comfortably at light heavy

Yeah, I agree.

Like I said I personally rank most of those wins to his LHW resume (Charles, Bivins etc)

But for arguments sake, if those 'official' Heavyweight wins are put into his HW resume where do you think he'd be around?

I mean, Charles, Bivins, Valdez and Machen for starters is a pretty strong list of names in my book.

IronDanHamza
10-31-2011, 01:39 PM
Within 30 places of Liston.

;)

Haha No doubts about that one my friend.

Can you imagine if Johnson didn't get injured and their fight went though?

Man, that would have been a beatdown and a half.

A short one, atleast.

TheGreatA
10-31-2011, 02:26 PM
Fun fact about Harold Johnson is that he was scheduled to face a raw Sonny Liston in the mid 50's but was injured. Marty Marshall fought him instead as a substitute (in their third fight). It's not beyond Johnson to have outboxed an inexperienced Liston although he could very well have been caught himself. I imagine a win of that calibre would have put him very high in many people's lists, considering what Liston went onto become.

Later they were tentatively scheduled to face each other in the 60's but nothing came off of it. At that stage Harold probably wouldn't have done too well although he would have been wise enough to stay away from Sonny.

EDIT: Guess I didn't read the post above mine.

McGoorty
11-01-2011, 02:46 AM
:lol1:

Guys, you seem to have the wrong end of the stick. I am not trying to claim that Harold Johnson is a Top 10 HW or an ATG Heavyweight. Or even close for that matter.

I'm just asking with the resume he has there which is atleast solid, where does he rank?

Top 40? Lower? Higher? Where about's?

I'd say around Top 40 personally although I don't have my Top 50 HW's on hand. Just a rough estimate.

This is along with ranking all his 'offical' Heavyweight fights to that heavyweight resume. For arguments sake.
Mate, we is just jivin ya, If I had a list of say 100 HW's I may have a chance once I compare him to everyone.... AND I MEAN EVERYONE.... then I might play ball. Like I said we is just having a joke wit ya.

IronDanHamza
12-01-2012, 06:05 PM
Anyone have any more input or views for this?

It's a interesting topic IMO.