View Full Version : Past heavyweight champions got hit A LOT


UglyPug
10-27-2011, 12:34 PM
Joe Louis. . . Ali. . . Foreman. . . Frazier. . . They all got tagged so damn much!

Why is this? Why didn't the modern heavyweight greats like Lennox Lewis and the Klitschko's get hit that much? Even Holmes. . . I think it's because of the evolution of the sport. . . If you look at the champions from each fistic era, you can clearly tell they got better in regards to technique. . .

For example, Ali, who had a tremendous outside game, still got tagged and rocked on the reggie. . . Then you look at Vitali, who hardly EVER gets hit cleanly, much less rocked. . . HAS HE EVER BEEN KNOCKED DOWN?! LOL Ali has lost more rounds in one fight than vitali has THROUGH HIS ENTIRE CAREER!!

Discuss the evolution of the sport from the turn of the century up to now using the heavyweight division as an example. . .

TheGreatA
10-27-2011, 12:37 PM
Vitali and Lewis hit each other with 50% accuracy which shows that their defense is below par against opponents of their own size.

UglyPug
10-27-2011, 12:39 PM
Vitali and Lewis hit each other with 50% accuracy which shows that their defense is below par against opponents of their own size.

Why did prima carnera get hit a lot by joe louis? wasn't he a lot bigger? hmmm, maybe, JUST MAYBE, height is only one aspect that determines the ability of a pugilist to beat his opponent?

Ali was 4 inches taller than joe frazier, and he got beat the hell up by frazier. . .

El Pistolero
10-27-2011, 12:56 PM
Why did prima carnera get hit a lot by joe louis? wasn't he a lot bigger? hmmm, maybe, JUST MAYBE, height is only one aspect that determines the ability of a pugilist to beat his opponent?

Ali was 4 inches taller than joe frazier, and he got beat the hell up by frazier. . .

HAHAHAHAHA what fight were you watching? No one beat the **** outta each other like you claim. It was a close fight. And I used to think you were a good poster.

UglyPug
10-27-2011, 12:56 PM
maybe it's an indication of the difference of competition? BUT NOT SIZE! LOL. . .

still, fighters who were extremely crude were able to bash up Ali. . .

heavyweight fighters from the 1900's through the 1970's simply were not able to "read and react". . . Starting with Holmes, to Lewis, to the Klitschkos, you can see a new dimension take hold.

UglyPug
10-27-2011, 12:58 PM
HAHAHAHAHA what fight were you watching? No one beat the **** outta each other like you claim. It was a close fight. And I used to think you were a good poster but you're just another Klit licker

Yeah, a good fight, I AGREE! AN EXCELLENT FIGHT! But why was it such a good fight? Because Frazier got the shyt kicked outta him by Ali, and Ali got the shyt kicked outta him by Frazier!

I was just DEBUNKING the theory that "size" is the reason a fighter is able to win. . .

Also just showing the evolution of the sport. . . Fighters gradually got techically superior with each passing era.

UglyPug
10-27-2011, 01:00 PM
this thread is not about the klitschkos. . . it's about THE HISTORY of the heavyweight division. . . THE EVOLUTION of heavyweight fighters from past to present. . .

It's about every heavyweight fighter of the past, and WHY they were so vulnerable to being hit cleanly? If you notice, with each passing generation, the "heavyweight champ" took less and less damage. . .

joseph5620
10-27-2011, 01:06 PM
maybe it's an indication of the difference of competition? BUT NOT SIZE! LOL. . .

still, fighters who were extremely crude were able to bash up Ali. . .

heavyweight fighters from the 1900's through the 1970's simply were not able to "read and react". . . Starting with Holmes, to Lewis, to the Klitschkos, you can see a new dimension take hold.

Who were these "extremely crude" fighters "bashing" up Ali?



I don't know if you're trolling or not. But everything you're posting in this thread is extremely ignorant.

kendom
10-27-2011, 01:20 PM
Care to explain what techniques were available to Holmes and the Klits that Louis was deficient at?

The_Demon
10-27-2011, 01:24 PM
The heavyweight division is arguably at its worst right now,their are two decent champions and thats it-you wonder why Ali and Frazier had such competitive fights,its because they were both great fighters,you pretty much answered your own question with the initial post,stick the klits in together and see how much they get hit,its all about level of competition my friend

SCtrojansbaby
10-27-2011, 02:17 PM
Size size size size + skill. If you are skilled and fighting a guy much smaller naturally you will stay on the outside.

McGoorty
10-27-2011, 02:37 PM
Joe Louis. . . Ali. . . Foreman. . . Frazier. . . They all got tagged so damn much!

Why is this? Why didn't the modern heavyweight greats like Lennox Lewis and the Klitschko's get hit that much? Even Holmes. . . I think it's because of the evolution of the sport. . . If you look at the champions from each fistic era, you can clearly tell they got better in regards to technique. . .

For example, Ali, who had a tremendous outside game, still got tagged and rocked on the reggie. . . Then you look at Vitali, who hardly EVER gets hit cleanly, much less rocked. . . HAS HE EVER BEEN KNOCKED DOWN?! LOL Ali has lost more rounds in one fight than vitali has THROUGH HIS ENTIRE CAREER!!

Discuss the evolution of the sport from the turn of the century up to now using the heavyweight division as an example. . .
Wow.... a wacky thread..... another novelty, man I think that's because they were more aggressive back then and they threw 20 times as many punches,... I suppose you never thought of that....... NOVELTY THREAD !!!!!

McGoorty
10-27-2011, 02:41 PM
Size size size size + skill. If you are skilled and fighting a guy much smaller naturally you will stay on the outside.
Actually, there's a lot of truth in that statement,....................................... is that really you ??..... no i agree actually.

McGoorty
10-27-2011, 02:43 PM
Why did prima carnera get hit a lot by joe louis? wasn't he a lot bigger? hmmm, maybe, JUST MAYBE, height is only one aspect that determines the ability of a pugilist to beat his opponent?

Ali was 4 inches taller than joe frazier, and he got beat the hell up by frazier. . .
Carnera was a bum,..... what are you on about ????

McGoorty
10-27-2011, 02:50 PM
maybe it's an indication of the difference of competition? BUT NOT SIZE! LOL. . .

still, fighters who were extremely crude were able to bash up Ali. . .

heavyweight fighters from the 1900's through the 1970's simply were not able to "read and react". . . Starting with Holmes, to Lewis, to the Klitschkos, you can see a new dimension take hold.
You must be watching some strange films, you are having a laugh at us, and out of your depth here. Ali was twice as good as your darlings, you should try East Side Boxing Forum with this crud,,, or NSB,,,, This is for serious historians not this sort. This has been debated over and over and the modern case has been dismantled every time. You have no case, none at all,..... do some reading and come back in a few years when you have learned something............... lol.

UglyPug
10-27-2011, 03:32 PM
You must be watching some strange films, you are having a laugh at us, and out of your depth here. Ali was twice as good as your darlings, you should try East Side Boxing Forum with this crud,,, or NSB,,,, This is for serious historians not this sort. This has been debated over and over and the modern case has been dismantled every time. You have no case, none at all,..... do some reading and come back in a few years when you have learned something............... lol.


nobody else wants to listen. . . everybody believes that boxing "from their time" was the best. . .

I believe Lennox Lewis would beat every single champion from every era because of his size and skill. . . Same with Vitali and Wladimir

I will debunk your argument every time. . . THANK GOD for the evolution of the sport. . . Yes the competition isn't as much as it was at some points during the previous eras, but to say that the technique, and skill of the CHAMPIONS has not evolved is silly.

kendom
10-27-2011, 03:38 PM
nobody else wants to listen. . . everybody believes that boxing "from their time" was the best. . .

I believe Lennox Lewis would beat every single champion from every era because of his size and skill. . . Same with Vitali and Wladimir

I will debunk your argument every time. . . THANK GOD for the evolution of the sport. . . Yes the competition isn't as much as it was at some points during the previous eras, but to say that the technique, and skill of the CHAMPIONS has not evolved is silly.

then tell us how it has evolved, you have to back up your statement with evidence, what technical advantage does Vitali hold over champions from the past eras.

ghns1133
10-27-2011, 03:38 PM
nobody else wants to listen. . . everybody believes that boxing "from their time" was the best. . .

I believe Lennox Lewis would beat every single champion from every era because of his size and skill. . . Same with Vitali and Wladimir

I will debunk your argument every time. . . THANK GOD for the evolution of the sport. . . Yes the competition isn't as much as it was at some points during the previous eras, but to say that the technique, and skill of the CHAMPIONS has not evolved is silly.

the technique has devolved

if u really knew what u were talkng about u wouldnt have mad such a dumb thread

and using ali as ur example

he did everything wrong so ofcourse his technique looks messed up and ofcourse he got hit allot once he started to lose thos crazy reflexes

McGoorty
10-27-2011, 03:45 PM
As you can see, you have opened up a can of worms. I don't dispute that bigger men have a massive advantage..... literally, but it does not translate as skill. There will be many more posters giving you some stick. But we are fair here....... will give credit when due, but the cookie box key you ain't got on this thread..... no-how.

P4P Opinion
10-27-2011, 03:46 PM
Two reasons:

1. Size - Lewis and the Klitschko brothers are/were significantly larger than their opponents, as well as being technically gifted. Even for a gifted smaller fighter, this is a combination that is hard to beat.

2. Opposition - it just isn't there for the Klitschko brothers and wasn't that much there for Lewis. It's easier to avoid being hit against lesser-quality opponents, especially if you are significantly bigger.

UglyPug
10-27-2011, 06:05 PM
the technique has devolved

if u really knew what u were talkng about u wouldnt have mad such a dumb thread

and using ali as ur example

he did everything wrong so ofcourse his technique looks messed up and ofcourse he got hit allot once he started to lose thos crazy reflexes



ummm, did ali not get hit a lot and EVEN FLOORED by joe frazier when he was young and in his prime? YES, he did!

lol it just makes me laugh when people on boxingscene claim to "know more than others" about boxing. . . LOL, if you did, you wouldn't be on boxingscene arguing - you'd be getting PAID. .

THE ONLY people on here who i genuinely believe know more than the rest are people like ICEMAN JOHN SCULLY. . . And others have who actually boxed, and/or trained AT A WORLD CLASS LEVEL. . .

everybody else's opinion is just as valid as the next guys if he supports it.

TheGreatA
10-27-2011, 06:11 PM
The greatest defensive fighter of all times:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/s30WE2Vnsjo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/JlFhLg4l0hY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

kendom
10-27-2011, 06:51 PM
The greatest defensive fighter of all times:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/s30WE2Vnsjo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/JlFhLg4l0hY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Lol there's nothing to suggest at all that Vitali Klitschko's technique has "evolved" from Ali, the guy keeps his hands down, except he hasn't got Ali's lightning speed to get away with it. The only reason he does is because of the mediocrity of his opposition. Look at how many right hands he gets tagged with against Lewis, the one fighter he fought that was ATG worthy busted his face open in a nasty way.

New England
10-27-2011, 06:53 PM
Joe Louis. . . Ali. . . Foreman. . . Frazier. . . They all got tagged so damn much!

Why is this? Why didn't the modern heavyweight greats like Lennox Lewis and the Klitschko's get hit that much? Even Holmes. . . I think it's because of the evolution of the sport. . . If you look at the champions from each fistic era, you can clearly tell they got better in regards to technique. . .

For example, Ali, who had a tremendous outside game, still got tagged and rocked on the reggie. . . Then you look at Vitali, who hardly EVER gets hit cleanly, much less rocked. . . HAS HE EVER BEEN KNOCKED DOWN?! LOL Ali has lost more rounds in one fight than vitali has THROUGH HIS ENTIRE CAREER!!

Discuss the evolution of the sport from the turn of the century up to now using the heavyweight division as an example. . .



their opponents werent downright awful and out of shape

most important is the in shape part.


this is a relatively new phenomenon


a journeyman HW from 1940 the 70's was almost always in dog shape


today you can find guys in better shape at planet fitness.


and lennox lewis fought some good fighters // big punchers and did get tagged some.

Capaedia
10-27-2011, 07:21 PM
Ali-Arreola would make Ali-Williams look competitive...

And can you imagine Foreman-Peter, or Louis-Haye?

Are you really surprised that past champs got hit more?

Ziggy Stardust
10-27-2011, 08:01 PM
Ali-Arreola would make Ali-Williams look competitive...

And can you imagine Foreman-Peter, or Louis-Haye?

Are you really surprised that past champs got hit more?

Bear in mind the TS is the same douchebag that sent me red K for posting those Cox's Corner articles that refuted the idea that today's fighters are better. Logic and evidence are wasted on him.

Poet

King Kong
10-27-2011, 08:49 PM
What others have said - they were more evenly matched.

New England
10-27-2011, 09:06 PM
Bear in mind the TS is the same douchebag that sent me red K for posting those Cox's Corner articles that refuted the idea that today's fighters are better. Logic and evidence are wasted on him.

Poet



lol he challenged me to a fight


i think it came about in a thread in nsb when i got into it with some of them over a fight between louis and wladimir


there was an entire thread full of them.

Ziggy Stardust
10-27-2011, 09:14 PM
lol he challenged me to a fight


i think it came about in a thread in nsb when i got into it with some of them over a fight between louis and wladimir


there was an entire thread full of them.

PMSL :hahahaha9:

ghns1133
10-27-2011, 09:32 PM
ummm, did ali not get hit a lot and EVEN FLOORED by joe frazier when he was young and in his prime? YES, he did!

lol it just makes me laugh when people on boxingscene claim to "know more than others" about boxing. . . LOL, if you did, you wouldn't be on boxingscene arguing - you'd be getting PAID. .

THE ONLY people on here who i genuinely believe know more than the rest are people like ICEMAN JOHN SCULLY. . . And others have who actually boxed, and/or trained AT A WORLD CLASS LEVEL. . .

everybody else's opinion is just as valid as the next guys if he supports it.

that goes for u 2 dumbass

ali wasnt in his prime when he faught frazier it was after a three year layoff and joe frazier was oe of the best off all time

u still havent given any examples of what has actually changed or evolved

do fighters know how to infight nowadays? no really

fighters dont have asmush defnsive skills

fighters dont have the same seasoning and experience because the fight so few times

they dont know how to clinch at the right times

i watch an oldshool fight and i see guys slipping and drawing their oppontent into counters and using their shoulders on the inside to control a fighters movement

there are allot of lost subtle sklls that someone who doesnt have an eye for or someone who isnt paying attention wouldnt pick up on

u dont see nearly asm mush of that stuff

now"boxing" and "skills" are word used to discribe a guy who potshots and dances around

u put him in their with a "brawler" like lammotta( a poormans carlos baldomir to some, that on cracks me up) and he wouldnt know what to do when he gets cuut off and smothered with a vicuious but also measured attack

what has improved????

u still havent told us yet.

McGoorty
10-28-2011, 12:34 AM
Bear in mind the TS is the same douchebag that sent me red K for posting those Cox's Corner articles that refuted the idea that today's fighters are better. Logic and evidence are wasted on him.

Poet
Poet, when I read that he red K'd you, I red K'd him for you... lol, what goes around comes around...... No other reason that I felt like doing it.... lol.

McGoorty
10-28-2011, 12:37 AM
lol he challenged me to a fight


i think it came about in a thread in nsb when i got into it with some of them over a fight between louis and wladimir


there was an entire thread full of them.
Klitschko would get bashed by Benny Lynch, and Jimmy Wilde.... lol...... Joe Louis would MOIDER DE BUM.

McGoorty
10-28-2011, 12:51 AM
I was feeling like having a bit of fun with the NSB nuthuggers and I know you guys will enjoy this bit 'O fun..... link..http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11342854

RubenSonny
10-28-2011, 05:48 AM
nobody else wants to listen. . . everybody believes that boxing "from their time" was the best. . .

I believe Lennox Lewis would beat every single champion from every era because of his size and skill. . . Same with Vitali and Wladimir

I will debunk your argument every time. . . THANK GOD for the evolution of the sport. . . Yes the competition isn't as much as it was at some points during the previous eras, but to say that the technique, and skill of the CHAMPIONS has not evolved is silly.

How has the technique improved btw and how comes LL got KTFO on 2 occassions and got a gift over Ray Mercer who incidentally 'tagged' him plenty.

the technique has devolved

if u really knew what u were talkng about u wouldnt have mad such a dumb thread

and using ali as ur example

he did everything wrong so ofcourse his technique looks messed up and ofcourse he got hit allot once he started to lose thos crazy reflexes

Correct, one of the greatest fighters of all time did everything wrong man :fing02:

SBleeder
10-28-2011, 07:55 AM
If indeed modern heavyweights don't get hit as often as fighters from previous generations, it's probably because no modern heavyweights punch with the accuracy, or throw as many punches, as prior greats. Joe Frazier threw more punches in a few rounds than the Frankenstein brothers thow in a 12 round fight.

McGoorty
10-29-2011, 06:21 AM
WTF are you talking about,.... In most of Jack Johnson's fights he hardly ever got hit.... Nice try... but no bacon.

wmute
10-29-2011, 07:44 AM
Bear in mind the TS is the same douchebag that sent me red K for posting those Cox's Corner articles that refuted the idea that today's fighters are better. Logic and evidence are wasted on him.

Poet

did you also insult him in the post or something?

If not, I am going to red k someone for the 2nd or 3rd time in 8 years of boxingscene.

Greatest1942
10-29-2011, 10:26 AM
Bear in mind the TS is the same douchebag that sent me red K for posting those Cox's Corner articles that refuted the idea that today's fighters are better. Logic and evidence are wasted on him.

Poet

Well did he see how evenly those were matched. And what happens when todays wizards are matched evenly?

Anyway that was a bad reason to red K.Some people get so engrossed in certain things, the very idea that may not not be true is unimaginable to them.

Ziggy Stardust
10-29-2011, 02:11 PM
did you also insult him in the post or something?

If not, I am going to red k someone for the 2nd or 3rd time in 8 years of boxingscene.

Nope! Just gave me red for even posting the article.

Poet

Scott9945
10-29-2011, 02:20 PM
Nope! Just gave me red for even posting the article.

Poet


That's lame. :nonono:

Barn
10-30-2011, 10:39 AM
HAHAHAHAHA what fight were you watching? No one beat the **** outta each other like you claim. It was a close fight. And I used to think you were a good poster.
Actually both of them got the hell beaten out of each other by their opponent.

Barn
10-30-2011, 10:43 AM
nobody else wants to listen. . . everybody believes that boxing "from their time" was the best. . .

I believe Lennox Lewis would beat every single champion from every era because of his size and skill. . . Same with Vitali and Wladimir

I will debunk your argument every time. . . THANK GOD for the evolution of the sport. . . Yes the competition isn't as much as it was at some points during the previous eras, but to say that the technique, and skill of the CHAMPIONS has not evolved is silly.

Yeah cause he proved it against ATG HW's McCall and Rahman... oh wait.

And with Wlads desturction of No2 ATG HW David Haye no wonder you think that.

McGoorty
10-30-2011, 12:34 PM
Good to see you are back around these parts Barnburner, I've missed you..... especially posts like this one.

Barn
10-30-2011, 12:54 PM
Good to see you are back around these parts Barnburner, I've missed you..... especially posts like this one.
Been a little busy with school work so hadn't been doing boxing training for a week or two so wasn't really in a boxing mindset :lol1:

Thanks though.

McGoorty
10-30-2011, 01:26 PM
Been a little busy with school work so hadn't been doing boxing training for a week or two so wasn't really in a boxing mindset :lol1:

Thanks though.
No worries mate, I'm on a little hiatus myself,,, just a few posts here and there.. I need to regain some energy and zest... done sooo much reading up. I'll be right soon... lol.

davros2010
10-31-2011, 09:49 AM
Foreman, Frazier and Louis were aggresive fighters so of course they will get hit at somepoint. Wlad is very defensive and passive just throwing out a left jab and not commiting to anything until he knows his opponent is half dead. When Wlad used to be aggresive he got hit a fair bit even guys like Barrett were able to hit him and lets not talk about Sanders.