View Full Version : Of the things SRL was able to negotiate for against Hagler...


SBleeder
10-23-2011, 07:18 PM
The big gloves, the big ring, and the 12 round length, which one had the most impact on the fight? Which one hurt Hagler the most?

Kid McCoy
10-23-2011, 07:43 PM
12 rounds. Leonard looked just about spent after 12. Three more and I think Hagler would have caught up to him. Saying that if Hagler hadn't stupidly given Leonard a three round head start he might have won anyway.

bojangles1987
10-23-2011, 08:21 PM
Definitely the 12 rounds. Hagler fought a fifteen round fight, and it cost him.

The biggest mistake Hagler made was letting Leonard charm him. Don't get me started on this fight though, I'll believe to the day I die that Hagler was screwed. Leonard did better than expected and won the fight just because of that.

Owlzfan84
10-23-2011, 08:29 PM
I'd say the ring size. That made it tougher for Hagler to cut off the ring.

$Natedatpkid$
10-23-2011, 08:30 PM
I think its got to be the ring in a espn size ring hagler would have worked him since Leonard would have had no where to run.

Scott9945
10-23-2011, 08:33 PM
For someone with such extensive inactivity like Leonard, the distance has to be the biggest factor.

ghns1133
10-23-2011, 10:37 PM
th ring IMO

if it was a 20 ft ring hagler could have won more rounds conviciincingly and a 18ft ring he could have stopped leonard

but its close with the 12 round limit cause marvin always seemed to get a third wind in the 14th and 15th

TBear
10-24-2011, 12:56 AM
First of all Hagler chose the 12 round distance. Perhaps it was all he figured he needed but it was his camp's call. In negotiations these things were debated and Hagler chose the new 12 round distance and in turn Leonards camp chose the ring size.

Hagler also went with the WBC's new 12 round title distance in his two previous bouts with Hearns and Mugabi. The WBA and IBF still had the 15 round limit.

Kid McCoy
10-24-2011, 07:45 AM
First of all Hagler chose the 12 round distance. Perhaps it was all he figured he needed but it was his camp's call. In negotiations these things were debated and Hagler chose the new 12 round distance and in turn Leonards camp chose the ring size.

Hagler also went with the WBC's new 12 round title distance in his two previous bouts with Hearns and Mugabi. The WBA and IBF still had the 15 round limit.

According to Four Kings Mike Trainer (Leonard's advisor) said if the fight was scheduled for 15 then there would be no fight.

Another mistake Hagler made was to object to English judge Harry Gibbs in favour of Jose Guerra, who scored the fight 118-110 to Leonard. Gibbs said he would have given it to Hagler.

TBear
10-24-2011, 05:33 PM
According to Four Kings Mike Trainer (Leonard's advisor) said if the fight was scheduled for 15 then there would be no fight.

Another mistake Hagler made was to object to English judge Harry Gibbs in favour of Jose Guerra, who scored the fight 118-110 to Leonard. Gibbs said he would have given it to Hagler.

I was going by what The Ring magazine said at the time the fight was signed but perhaps Leonard was clever to let Hagler think he was getting what he wanted when it was actually something they both wanted.

Mugwump
10-24-2011, 06:52 PM
12 rounds hurt Hagler the most. But it was not a gamebreaker. I think Hagler's mistake was in completely underestimating the emotional potency of Ray's return and the air of nostalgia it instilled within the crowd. He didn't realise he was battling against arguably the biggest home-team advantage in modern times (look at the likes of Gene Hackman cheering like a schoolkid for Leonard) until it was far too late and went down fighting an unbeatable myth rather than a very beatable man.

joseph5620
10-24-2011, 09:50 PM
12 rounds hurt Hagler the most. But it was not a gamebreaker. I think Hagler's mistake was in completely underestimating the emotional potency of Ray's return and the air of nostalgia it instilled within the crowd. He didn't realise he was battling against arguably the biggest home-team advantage in modern times (look at the likes of Gene Hackman cheering like a schoolkid for Leonard) until it was far too late and went down fighting an unbeatable myth rather than a very beatable man.

Hagler clearly losing the first four rounds and foolishly fighting right handed early hurt Hagler far more than Gene Hackman or the crowd. The 12 rounds and large ring helped Leonard more but Leonard made Hagler look old and slow. There is no getting around that.

wmute
10-25-2011, 11:32 AM
Rounds. No doubt. Totally a ***** move. But this is also very true ^^^. As painful as it is to admit.

Mugwump
10-25-2011, 07:54 PM
Hagler clearly losing the first four rounds and foolishly fighting right handed early hurt Hagler far more than Gene Hackman or the crowd. The 12 rounds and large ring helped Leonard more but Leonard made Hagler look old and slow. There is no getting around that.

To outside observers Hagler was giving rounds away. But he clearly thought he was in the fight (hence his numerous complaints about the judging). Hagler made the mistake of not recognising that Ray was riding on the tide of emotion that was sweeping the auditorium. At the very least it must have put an enormous amount of pressure upon the judging which meant that Hagler needed to be conspicuous - especially as Leonard cleverly amplified the emotion by throwing every flashy shot in the book. He wasn't.

Yes, Hagler did look slow. However, any careful observer could see that Leonard was also a pale shadow of his former self. For sure he was beating Marvin to the punch. But he could only sustain his attack in short bursts. Hagler needed to be in Leonard's face every time he took his foot off the pedal.

TAC602
10-26-2011, 06:24 AM
Definitely the 12 rounds. Hagler fought a fifteen round fight, and it cost him.

The biggest mistake Hagler made was letting Leonard charm him. Don't get me started on this fight though, I'll believe to the day I die that Hagler was screwed. Leonard did better than expected and won the fight just because of that.

I don't know if I can say Hagler was screwed, but it certainly didn't feel like he was soundly beat whatsoever. It doesn't hurt him as far as I'm concerned. I'm glad he left the ring never came back to embarrass himself. MMH to me is a fighter's fighter and a true legend of the sport. His resume is impeccable IMO: Ring Record, KO% (highest in middleweight history), quality of opposion, dominance of division. Marvin avenged every loss or draw and did it by way of KO to leave no doubts. The lone loss he didn't avenge is due to being refused a rematch, and for good reason. He also breaks Monzon's then-record for title defenses if he isn't jobbed in the Antuofermo fight too. H2H, he's undoubtedly by No. 1 and I don't waver on it, period.

GULLY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKAI2awNgr4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

UglyPug
10-26-2011, 06:49 AM
Hagler was beat by Leonard. . . No robbery here. . . Hagler didn't have to deal with anything different than other fighters have had too. . . Leonard looked amazing in this fight. . . so much hand speed. . . AMAZING wheels on him too. . . that's boxing IMO. . .

PIECED Hagler up. . . Lol then Hagler acted like a baby and cried about it. . . "waaaaaa i got beat but i think i deserved to win!" WAAAAAAAAAA!

TAC602
11-19-2011, 02:13 PM
Hagler was beat by Leonard. . . No robbery here. . . Hagler didn't have to deal with anything different than other fighters have had too. . . Leonard looked amazing in this fight. . . so much hand speed. . . AMAZING wheels on him too. . . that's boxing IMO. . .

PIECED Hagler up. . . Lol then Hagler acted like a baby and cried about it. . . "waaaaaa i got beat but i think i deserved to win!" WAAAAAAAAAA!

Well, I do think it's unfair to Leonard that this particular fight is largely the reason detractors whine about pitter patter, stealing, running, etc. when in reality, almost all of Leonard's illustrious wins were via knockout:

Benitez (38-0-1) - TKO15
Green (33-2-0) - KO4
Duran (72-1-0) - TKO8 (officially)
Kalule (36-0-0) - TKO9
Hearns (32-0-0) - TKO14

What an F-in' Resume.

Clearly, nobody was ever going to KO Marvelous, owner of arguably the greatest chin in boxing history.

The Surgeon
11-19-2011, 03:12 PM
The Judges man...The ****in judges!

Of what u list though i think the distance, even though im of the understanding its what both guys wanted - 15 would have suited Marvin better what with SRL's inactivity

DarkTerror88
11-19-2011, 05:10 PM
I think a rematch, if it were to happen would have clearly gone to Marvin. He would of used every inch of his stamina to take the fight to ray and fight him on the inside with a good body attack which would have done ray in IMO. but se la vie

Sugarj
11-19-2011, 07:04 PM
Hagler clearly losing the first four rounds and foolishly fighting right handed early hurt Hagler far more than Gene Hackman or the crowd. The 12 rounds and large ring helped Leonard more but Leonard made Hagler look old and slow. There is no getting around that.


You took the words out of my mouth, I voted that the 12 round distance was the biggest factor, but boxing was going that way anyway. The amount of 15 round fights after 1987 was much reduced. Come to think of it, no title fights even jump to mind.....was there any 15 round fights post 1987? I'm stuck to think of one!!! So no real excuse there for Hagler fans........

And yes, Hagler looked old and slow. Although the fight was closer on second viewing, Hagler was made to look foolish at times with wild missing, he was slow to capitalise on Leonard's mistakes, he didn't apply enough pressure, his handspeed was quite reduced too. Come to think of it, did Leonard actually miss with any of his combinations? Hagler was quite a goal keeper that night. If Leonard didn't beat him he might have been exposed shortly after regardless. I think that the Hagler that fought Leonard would have had a tough time with Hearns, Barkley, Benn or even Eubank a few years later.

Adding to all the above he gave away the early rounds trying to make a point of fighting orthodox, what was he and the Petronelli's thinking? Come to think of it, the Petronelli's cornerwork was dire that night. Even Gil Clancy remarked on the telecast that they were talking to Hagler like it was 'an IBM meeting' between rounds, no hint to their fighter that the scoring might have been a little close!!!

Was prime Hagler better than Leonard at middleweight? Yes

Would Hagler have won a rematch? Possibly

What was the real reason Hagler lost? His age! He wasn't prime any longer.

Anthony342
11-19-2011, 07:18 PM
Yes he wasn't prime any longer and that's why Leonard fought him. Although I voted for the larger ring, which allowed more movement for Leonard. I think Hagler being past prime and Leonard's inactivity make this a pretty good win for him, but not a great one. I'm still a big fan of both fighters though.

TAC602
11-19-2011, 11:21 PM
Yes he wasn't prime any longer and that's why Leonard fought him. Although I voted for the larger ring, which allowed more movement for Leonard. I think Hagler being past prime and Leonard's inactivity make this a pretty good win for him, but not a great one. I'm still a big fan of both fighters though.

Hagler IMO was knd odf jobbed out of 'Fighter of the Decade' by various publications. He took the traditional route and made his mark in one division-- but put an absolute stranglehold on it and reigned as the unquestioned, undisputed champ for an extended period of time. I have really come to appreciate Leonard's amazing skills and I'm impressed by his mega-win fights, but I appreciate Hagler's dominance just a tad more.