View Full Version : Who had better boxing fundamentals Muhammad Ali or Roy Jones jr


kendom
10-18-2011, 06:41 PM
I was wondering who had the better boxing fundamentals... as in technical boxing ability- I think it might be Ali- opinions? thoughts?

New England
10-18-2011, 06:45 PM
both guys had some bad habits they were able to get away with because of their incredible talent

ali had the better jab and more fundamental footwork in my opinion.

the jab part really isnt an opinion

ghns1133
10-18-2011, 06:53 PM
oth had bad habits ali could get away with it later on cause he had a gpod chin

i think ali used his jab more often and it was better than rrj's

but rjj knew how to punch and he didnt slap and flick punches like ali did

IronDanHamza
10-18-2011, 07:01 PM
Both had a severe lack of fundementals and didn't do the 'right' things in Boxing but they had freakish natural talent and ability which meant they didn't have to.

Out of the two I would say Ali was the more 'fundemental' of the two.

RubenSonny
10-18-2011, 07:06 PM
There really isn't really a right way to box, and 'technical' doesn't really mean anything.

IronDanHamza
10-18-2011, 07:47 PM
There really isn't really a right way to box, and 'technical' doesn't really mean anything.

I agree that's why I put 'right' in inverted commas.

I think the TS is asking to make your pick using that 'right way to box' logic though. If you follow.

fight_professor
10-18-2011, 07:49 PM
Ali, simply put when he lost his speed he was still top. His skills were solid. When RJJ lost the speed, he started getting sparked.

JAB5239
10-18-2011, 07:59 PM
Im going to go against the grain and pick Jones. Im a firm believer that body punching is one of the most fundementally important things you can do in the ring to break down a fighter and Ali never did that. Had he, he may have been an even greater fighter.

IronDanHamza
10-18-2011, 08:04 PM
Im going to go against the grain and pick Jones. Im a firm believer that body punching is one of the most fundementally important things you can do in the ring to break down a fighter and Ali never did that. Had he, he may have been an even greater fighter.

That's a good point.

tyger
10-18-2011, 08:14 PM
All around fundamentals, Ali. Both got by with athleticism but after they got older Ali has the fundamentals to fall back on.

Kid McCoy
10-18-2011, 08:19 PM
Ali did have the most fundamental fundamental, a great jab, something Jones rarely used. But overall I'd say Jones had the better fundamentals. While both relied a lot on their physical gifts, Jones did also throw to the body, used a wider array of punches, threw his punches correctly. Neither were good infighters and neither developed a fundamental defence, the difference was when Ali started slowing down and getting hit more he turned out to have a great chin whereas Jones didn't. The incredible thing about Ali is he did so much wrong technically yet it worked wonderfully well for him.

CarlosG815
10-18-2011, 11:08 PM
I would have to go with Muhammad Ali in this case.

Capaedia
10-18-2011, 11:23 PM
Next up: Who was more technical. Marciano or Frazier :biggthump

nachorjj
10-18-2011, 11:27 PM
Roy easy, Ali don't work the body

them_apples
10-19-2011, 01:02 AM
Ali did. When they both lost their legs, ali was still good. Jones was not. jones has been knocked out by Danny Green, Tarver, glen johnson, because he didn't have his mobility any more and 0 fundamentals. Ali had a jab.

Jones knew how to punch though, i'll give him that. Ali sort of just whipped his punches and the only real shot he got leverage on was his right cross.

SCtrojansbaby
10-19-2011, 04:10 AM
There really isn't really a right way to box, and 'technical' doesn't really mean anything.

+1

Both guys fought in a style that took most advantage of there athleticism which is what you're supposed to do. How stupid would it be for Roy Jones to be throwing 20 jabs around when he can throw 1 hit KO lead left hooks from 2 feet out of jabbing range, and never get countered?

JAB5239
10-19-2011, 04:36 AM
+1

Both guys fought in a style that took most advantage of there athleticism which is what you're supposed to do. How stupid would it be for Roy Jones to be throwing 20 jabs around when he can throw 1 hit KO lead left hooks from 2 feet out of jabbing range, and never get countered?

Depends on how you look at it. Had he learned better fundamentals he probably would have prolonged his time as an elite fighter. As it stands he's being out lasted by contemporaries who weren't as naturally gifted but are still able to compete because they're more fundamentally sound.

SCtrojansbaby
10-19-2011, 06:01 AM
Depends on how you look at it. Had he learned better fundamentals he probably would have prolonged his time as an elite fighter. As it stands he's being out lasted by contemporaries who weren't as naturally gifted but are still able to compete because they're more fundamentally sound.

He lost his reflexes and his chin went to shyt, he could of been the most fundamental fighter ever he would still be getting knocked out left and right. Losing all that weight just killed him.

Also even without the big drop in weight how many boxers are still good at 35 and above with 50 pro fights under there belt?

Sugarj
10-19-2011, 06:11 AM
Im going to go against the grain and pick Jones. Im a firm believer that body punching is one of the most fundementally important things you can do in the ring to break down a fighter and Ali never did that. Had he, he may have been an even greater fighter.


Beat me to it!

Sugarj
10-19-2011, 06:14 AM
Ali did have the most fundamental fundamental, a great jab, something Jones rarely used. But overall I'd say Jones had the better fundamentals. While both relied a lot on their physical gifts, Jones did also throw to the body, used a wider array of punches, threw his punches correctly. Neither were good infighters and neither developed a fundamental defence, the difference was when Ali started slowing down and getting hit more he turned out to have a great chin whereas Jones didn't. The incredible thing about Ali is he did so much wrong technically yet it worked wonderfully well for him.


Both were excellent infighters off the ropes.

Kid McCoy
10-19-2011, 10:43 AM
He lost his reflexes and his chin went to shyt, he could of been the most fundamental fighter ever he would still be getting knocked out left and right. Losing all that weight just killed him.

Also even without the big drop in weight how many boxers are still good at 35 and above with 50 pro fights under there belt?

As a light-heavy Roy's ring weight was in the 180s and he weighed 193 for Ruiz fulled clothed. That's hardly the kind of massive weight drop that will finish a guy's career.

SCtrojansbaby
10-19-2011, 10:50 AM
As a light-heavy Roy's ring weight was in the 180s and he weighed 193 for Ruiz fulled clothed. That's hardly the kind of massive weight drop that will finish a guy's career.


Going from 193 to 175 is huge when you're 35 and in your 50th pro fight, if not the weight then what finished him? Did he just get old overnight, that's certainly a possibility.

Nobody in their right mind honestly believes Tarver was some kind super fighter that Roy had never seen before. Tarver was a basic 1-2 fighter no different then at least 20 other guys Roy had destroyed before

BennyST
10-19-2011, 11:10 AM
Going from 193 to 175 is huge when you're 35 and in your 50th pro fight, if not the weight then what finished him? Did he just get old overnight, that's certainly a possibility.

Nobody in their right mind honestly believes Tarver was some kind super fighter that Roy had never seen before. Tarver was a basic 1-2 fighter no different then at least 20 other guys Roy had destroyed before

Although I sort of agree, there is a big difference. Tarver had a couple of things going for him that had shown to give Roy trouble. Most importantly, he was a big (ie. tall with reach etc), southpaw counter puncher with power. He had not seen anyone like that. He'd seen good fighters, some great, but no one with the exact small things that made Tarver so difficult.

Tarver didn't attack. That alone made it hard for Jones because he had to a lot more than usual. He was different than Jones had seen, but he wasn't better if that makes sense.

SCtrojansbaby
10-19-2011, 11:41 AM
Although I sort of agree, there is a big difference. Tarver had a couple of things going for him that had shown to give Roy trouble. Most importantly, he was a big (ie. tall with reach etc), southpaw counter puncher with power. He had not seen anyone like that. He'd seen good fighters, some great, but no one with the exact small things that made Tarver so difficult.

Tarver didn't attack. That alone made it hard for Jones because he had to a lot more than usual. He was different than Jones had seen, but he wasn't better if that makes sense.

Tarver wasn't any bigger than southpaws Eric Harding and Derrick Harmon and Tarver didn't counter punch anymore then they did in their fights against Roy.

Kid McCoy
10-19-2011, 12:03 PM
Going from 193 to 175 is huge when you're 35 and in your 50th pro fight, if not the weight then what finished him? Did he just get old overnight, that's certainly a possibility.

Nobody in their right mind honestly believes Tarver was some kind super fighter that Roy had never seen before. Tarver was a basic 1-2 fighter no different then at least 20 other guys Roy had destroyed before

Roy's ring weight for his light-heavy fights was around the 185 mark. His walk around weight was probably even closer to 193. That's an 8lb jump and he had eight months to lose it. I just don't see that as the kind of weight change that's going to ruin a fighter. And he did actually win the first Tarver fight.

No one's saying Tarver was that great. He just landed a Hail Mary type punch out of nowhere, a bit like Nunn-Kalambay. He probably couldn't replicate it if they fought another ten times. Jones had never been hit with a shot like that before.

SCtrojansbaby
10-19-2011, 01:12 PM
Roy's ring weight for his light-heavy fights was around the 185 mark. His walk around weight was probably even closer to 193. That's an 8lb jump and he had eight months to lose it. I just don't see that as the kind of weight change that's going to ruin a fighter. And he did actually win the first Tarver fight.

No one's saying Tarver was that great. He just landed a Hail Mary type punch out of nowhere, a bit like Nunn-Kalambay. He probably couldn't replicate it if they fought another ten times. Jones had never been hit with a shot like that before.

Forget all the walking around weight and in ring stuff, he had to weight in at 175 which meant an 18 pound difference from his last weigh in. I don't see how an 18 pound difference isn't going to significantly hurt a fighter when they are 35 years old and in the 50th fight. It wasn't like Roy had gotten fat or whatever heavyweights blow up in weight all the time, Roy was shredded when he fought Ruiz and his body couldn't handle the weight loss it at that stage in his career.

That punch that Tarver KO'd Roy with wasn't any harder then the punch Lou Del Valle knocked him down with or the over hand right that Montell Griffin hit him with but forget the KO even in the first fight you could tell Roy was a shell of himself.

SplitSecond
10-19-2011, 01:16 PM
why does everyone say roy jones wasn't a good infighter? he hurt plenty of opponents on the inside

joseph5620
10-19-2011, 01:47 PM
Forget all the walking around weight and in ring stuff, he had to weight in at 175 which meant an 18 pound difference from his last weigh in. I don't see how an 18 pound difference isn't going to significantly hurt a fighter when they are 35 years old and in the 50th fight. It wasn't like Roy had gotten fat or whatever heavyweights blow up in weight all the time, Roy was shredded when he fought Ruiz and his body couldn't handle the weight loss it at that stage in his career.

That punch that Tarver KO'd Roy with wasn't any harder then the punch Lou Del Valle knocked him down with or the over hand right that Montell Griffin hit him with but forget the KO even in the first fight you could tell Roy was a shell of himself.




It's definitely a factor.

joseph5620
10-19-2011, 01:54 PM
Roy's ring weight for his light-heavy fights was around the 185 mark. His walk around weight was probably even closer to 193. That's an 8lb jump and he had eight months to lose it. I just don't see that as the kind of weight change that's going to ruin a fighter. And he did actually win the first Tarver fight.

No one's saying Tarver was that great. He just landed a Hail Mary type punch out of nowhere, a bit like Nunn-Kalambay. He probably couldn't replicate it if they fought another ten times. Jones had never been hit with a shot like that before.

If Jones weighed over 180 for his light heavyweight fights I would be willing to bet it was the very low 180's.

Shameful
10-19-2011, 02:28 PM
Matter of opinion on what is 'right' I think, but what each guy lacked, hell they made up for in god given talent.

F l i c k e r
10-19-2011, 02:36 PM
Ali easily. Even with his hands down style, still Ali easily.

Evidence is when they both aged. Ali had something to fall back on when his speed and movement dwindled. Still able to compete with the best. When RJJ's speed and movement dwindled he had nothing to fall back on. Hence being owned by guys he would have annihilated in his prime.

Ali had the better fundamentals. When all else fails, go back to boxing 101. RJJ couldn't do that.

THE REED™
10-19-2011, 02:40 PM
Ali easily. Even with his hands down style, still Ali easily.

Evidence is when they both aged. Ali had something to fall back on when his speed and movement dwindled. Still able to compete with the best. When RJJ's speed and movement dwindled he had nothing to fall back on. Hence being owned by guys he would have annihilated in his prime.

Ali had the better fundamentals. When all else fails, go back to boxing 101. RJJ couldn't do that.

Really it was Ali's ability to take a punch... take that away and he would have had plenty of knock out losses...

F l i c k e r
10-19-2011, 02:51 PM
Really it was Ali's ability to take a punch... take that away and he would have had plenty of knock out losses...


Possibly. I'm not even big on Ali to be honest. But when they aged, he was able to fend opponents off better than what RJJ is doing now. Even shot, RJJ is still trying to do that little stutter w/ the hands down and pull the leaping hook. If he had better fundamentals he wouldn't resort to those sort of actions.

THE REED™
10-19-2011, 02:53 PM
Possibly. I'm not even big on Ali to be honest. But when they aged, he was able to fend opponents off better than what RJJ is doing now. Even shot, RJJ is still trying to do that little stutter w/ the hands down and pull the leaping hook. If he had better fundamentals he wouldn't resort to those sort of actions.

Not possibly, Definitely.

Some of the shots he took laying on the ropes would knock most men out... Frazier hit him with some unbelievable left hooks on the ropes, that I honestly don't know how he stayed on his feet.

Or a better chin...

F l i c k e r
10-19-2011, 03:04 PM
Not possibly, Definitely.

Some of the shots he took laying on the ropes would knock most men out... Frazier hit him with some unbelievable left hooks on the ropes, that I honestly don't know how he stayed on his feet.

Or a better chin...


lol, I know you like RJJ a lot but come on. He's still doing things shot, that he did in his prime and he is losing because of it. Not as fast or reactive and still leaping chin up hands down towards opponents.

With a better chin, does he beat Calzaghe?

THE REED™
10-19-2011, 03:08 PM
lol, I know you like RJJ a lot but come on. He's still doing things shot, that he did in his prime and he is losing because of it. Not as fast or reactive and still leaping chin up hands down towards opponents.

With a better chin, does he beat Calzaghe?

I'm talking about the comparison between him doing better than Ali post prime... Ali's chin is what made him be able to lay on the ropes and fight off them... without that chin, that wouldn't work. Roy doesn't have that chin so he tries to box in the center of the ring... and no it doesn't work, either..

joseph5620
10-19-2011, 03:21 PM
Really it was Ali's ability to take a punch... take that away and he would have had plenty of knock out losses...





That's really all that matters in the long run. When fighters get older and start slipping they are going to get hit more. Period. Either they can take the punches or they can't. And that goes for all fighters regardless of their "technical" abilities. I don't care what kind of "fundamentals" an old fighter uses. He's going to get hit more when he becomes an old fighter. How did an old shot Joe Louis "fundamentals" work against Marciano and Ezzard Charles? Even some of the best defensive boxers in history got hit consistently when they got old.



What prime Ali and Jones jr did in their primes worked very well for them. That's all that matters.You don't try to fix something that's not broken.

Kid McCoy
10-19-2011, 07:40 PM
Forget all the walking around weight and in ring stuff, he had to weight in at 175 which meant an 18 pound difference from his last weigh in. I don't see how an 18 pound difference isn't going to significantly hurt a fighter when they are 35 years old and in the 50th fight. It wasn't like Roy had gotten fat or whatever heavyweights blow up in weight all the time, Roy was shredded when he fought Ruiz and his body couldn't handle the weight loss it at that stage in his career.

That punch that Tarver KO'd Roy with wasn't any harder then the punch Lou Del Valle knocked him down with or the over hand right that Montell Griffin hit him with but forget the KO even in the first fight you could tell Roy was a shell of himself.

Roy always cut down from the 180s to 175. He was just starting from a point ten or so lbs higher than usual. I don't believe that going 10-12 lbs higher than his regular ring weight somehow destroyed his chin in a fight that took place 14 months later. If that were the case then how come Tarver didn't come close to KO'ing Jones in their other two fights? That Tarver punch was much harder than that half punch half shove Del Valle shot, and Jones even looked shaky for a few moments after that one. Tarver was just a Hail Mary shot, could have happened to Jones at any point in his career.

If Jones weighed over 180 for his light heavyweight fights I would be willing to bet it was the very low 180's.

He was 181 for Woods, 182 for Reggie Johnson, 180 for Tarver II. Those are all the ones I know, but I'd guess all the others are around that mark too.

SCtrojansbaby
10-20-2011, 02:53 AM
Roy always cut down from the 180s to 175. He was just starting from a point ten or so lbs higher than usual. I don't believe that going 10-12 lbs higher than his regular ring weight somehow destroyed his chin in a fight that took place 14 months later. If that were the case then how come Tarver didn't come close to KO'ing Jones in their other two fights? That Tarver punch was much harder than that half punch half shove Del Valle shot, and Jones even looked shaky for a few moments after that one. Tarver was just a Hail Mary shot, could have happened to Jones at any point in his career.

He was 181 for Woods, 182 for Reggie Johnson, 180 for Tarver II. Those are all the ones I know, but I'd guess all the others are around that mark too.

We are getting off the point Roy after the Ruiz fight had no chin and no reflexes which will make any fighter useless.

JAB5239
10-20-2011, 03:03 AM
We are getting off the point Roy after the Ruiz fight had no chin and no reflexes which will make any fighter useless.

He still had better reflexes than most of the division. The problem was his lack of fundamentals caught up with him and he no longer had the natural ability to avoid taking bombs.

SCtrojansbaby
10-20-2011, 05:22 AM
He still had better reflexes than most of the division. The problem was his lack of fundamentals caught up with him and he no longer had the natural ability to avoid taking bombs.

Can we stop with this lack of fundamental crap, Roy used the style that took most advantage of the fact that he is probable the best athlete to ever put on a pair of gloves.

Roy's reflexes were crap post Ruiz, they were not better than any of the guys he was getting KO'd by. If you don't have your reflexes and your punch resistance is gone it doesn't matter how many textbook fundamentals you have you're going to get beatdown by the guys Roy was fighting.

GoogleMe
10-20-2011, 09:33 AM
Allround boxing skills, I'd say Ali - way better defense with an ever greater chin. But boxing is about creating you OWN style, and master what suits you the best.

If you're too schooled, you won't much...

GJC
10-20-2011, 10:24 AM
Neither of them were great examples to use to teach a kid how to box. When Ali started lot of us old farts thought his unorthodouxness would get found out. Ali aged better due to that fantastic chin and better ring smarts IMO

RubenSonny
10-20-2011, 10:53 AM
Neither of them were great examples to use to teach a kid how to box. When Ali started lot of us old farts thought his unorthodouxness would get found out. Ali aged better due to that fantastic chin and better ring smarts IMO

If it works it works, every gym I've been to teaches different things, and I've been taught different ways of doing things by different trainers at the same gym, there's not a right or wrong way to box, effectiveness within the rules (there's some flexibility there) of boxing is all that matters.

jabsRstiff
10-20-2011, 10:58 AM
If it works it works, every gym I've been to teaches different things, and I've been taught different ways of doing things by different trainers at the same gym, there's not a right or wrong way to box, effectiveness within the rules (there's some flexibility there) of boxing is all that matters.

I have never seen any trainers training their fighters to fight the way Ali or Jones did. A trainer will always start you out with the basics and let you find out what works for you over time. The first time you drop your hands in front of a guy in sparring or in a fight, your trainer's gonna break your balls. If he sees you have the ability to not only do it and get away with it but make it work...he'll loosen up.

Kid McCoy
10-20-2011, 11:18 AM
We are getting off the point Roy after the Ruiz fight had no chin and no reflexes which will make any fighter useless.

Reflexes I agree with, but I doubt Roy's chin was diminished. Even when his speed and reflexes were long gone Ali still kept his chin. In his prime Roy's chin was rarely tested, certainly not by anything as hard as that Tarver shot. The loss of his reflexes just meant his chin was being seriously tested for the first time, and it didn't hold up.

Sugarj
10-20-2011, 12:28 PM
Reflexes I agree with, but I doubt Roy's chin was diminished. Even when his speed and reflexes were long gone Ali still kept his chin. In his prime Roy's chin was rarely tested, certainly not by anything as hard as that Tarver shot. The loss of his reflexes just meant his chin was being seriously tested for the first time, and it didn't hold up.


To be honest though, after watching Roy's career he did ship some nasty blows before Tarver 2, to no ill effect.

Whether it was age, weight loss, lack of neck exercises doesn't really matter, but I do think Roy's chin has seriously deteriorated. The shot that knocked him down in Australia by Danny Green looked very ineffectual. Theres not a hope that he wouldn't have been exposed long before Tarver 2, if his chin was always 'that' bad.

Boxers always ship punches, even guys with amazing reflexes. Whether it be in sparring, or in the professional game. Roy was a decorated amateur and a pro for around 15 years before being knocked out by Tarver. We'd have seen some evidence of a weak chin before Tarver if it were the case.

Other boxers chins have deteriorated too with age and jumping down a division after campaigning a division above, Ray Leonard and Ricky Hatton being two that jump to mind.

Kid McCoy
10-20-2011, 01:24 PM
To be honest though, after watching Roy's career he did ship some nasty blows before Tarver 2, to no ill effect.

Whether it was age, weight loss, lack of neck exercises doesn't really matter, but I do think Roy's chin has seriously deteriorated. The shot that knocked him down in Australia by Danny Green looked very ineffectual. Theres not a hope that he wouldn't have been exposed long before Tarver 2, if his chin was always 'that' bad.

Boxers always ship punches, even guys with amazing reflexes. Whether it be in sparring, or in the professional game. Roy was a decorated amateur and a pro for around 15 years before being knocked out by Tarver. We'd have seen some evidence of a weak chin before Tarver if it were the case.

Other boxers chins have deteriorated too with age and jumping down a division after campaigning a division above, Ray Leonard and Ricky Hatton being two that jump to mind.

Examples? I never saw Jones previously take a shot comparable to the one Tarver took him out with. I don't doubt that all his punch resistance has gone now, I just have a hard time believing that it suddenly diminished overnight after fighting Ruiz because frankly we don't know how good his chin was before that anyway. In any case, it was more a Hail Mary shot like Nunn-Kalambay or Martinez-Williams, so hardly evidence of a weak chin, just not a great one. Remember Tarver couldn't KO Jones in their other fights.

JAB5239
10-20-2011, 04:14 PM
Can we stop with this lack of fundamental crap, Roy used the style that took most advantage of the fact that he is probable the best athlete to ever put on a pair of gloves.

Roy's reflexes were crap post Ruiz, they were not better than any of the guys he was getting KO'd by. If you don't have your reflexes and your punch resistance is gone it doesn't matter how many textbook fundamentals you have you're going to get beatdown by the guys Roy was fighting.

No, they were diminished. As this video will show its his lack of fundamentals, diminished (but still faster than Tarvers) reflexes and willingness to lay on the ropes that cost him the fight. Had he a FUNDAMENTALLY better defense he could have won this fight. Had he a fundamentally better defense he could have beaten Lebedev, who's reflexes his own were better than.

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Sugarj
10-21-2011, 07:41 AM
Examples? I never saw Jones previously take a shot comparable to the one Tarver took him out with. I don't doubt that all his punch resistance has gone now, I just have a hard time believing that it suddenly diminished overnight after fighting Ruiz because frankly we don't know how good his chin was before that anyway. In any case, it was more a Hail Mary shot like Nunn-Kalambay or Martinez-Williams, so hardly evidence of a weak chin, just not a great one. Remember Tarver couldn't KO Jones in their other fights.

Thats why I focused on the Green fight, where Roy's punch resistance was comparable to dainty porceline, I'm certain that even I have held harder punches than that one without ill effect.

That was clear evidence that his chin had declined further than the Tarver fights. He took what looked like much harder punches from Montel Griffin in their first fight than he did against Green or Lebedev, who have stopped him recently. In Tarver 3 Jones certainly took harder blows than Green or Lebedev hit him with too.

The Tarver punch in fight 2 was good, I don't doubt that it might have knocked out many other light heavyweights too. Likewise, the Glen Johnson punch was pretty nasty.

But I think there is fairly clear evidence that punch resistance can decline in a fighter. You can blame it on a number of things; age, decades of headblows (severe or not), weightmaking......who knows?

Sugarj
10-21-2011, 07:43 AM
No, they were diminished. As this video will show its his lack of fundamentals, diminished (but still faster than Tarvers) reflexes and willingness to lay on the ropes that cost him the fight. Had he a FUNDAMENTALLY better defense he could have won this fight. Had he a fundamentally better defense he could have beaten Lebedev, who's reflexes his own were better than.

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Roy did win the first fight with Tarver Jab.

RubenSonny
10-21-2011, 08:07 AM
Reflexes I agree with, but I doubt Roy's chin was diminished. Even when his speed and reflexes were long gone Ali still kept his chin. In his prime Roy's chin was rarely tested, certainly not by anything as hard as that Tarver shot. The loss of his reflexes just meant his chin was being seriously tested for the first time, and it didn't hold up.

So you don't think it had anything to do with the fact Roy was 35 and had already started slipping years earlier, riiight.

JAB5239
10-21-2011, 08:16 AM
Roy did win the first fight with Tarver Jab.

I know my friend, but it was the first time his lack of fundamentals caught up with him in my opinion.

SCtrojansbaby
10-21-2011, 08:57 AM
Jab, when your reflexes and punch resistance go anybodies fundamentals are going to look bad. If you can't counter punch and can't take a punch nothing is going to help you

Also no way in hell can you watch those fights and thing Roy's reflexes are better than Tarvers(or Johnson's or Calzaghe's etc etc). There is a reason why Roy all of sudden looks like its 1995 again when he's fighting Lacy(bum) and Trinidad(more washed up than Roy).

Sugarj
10-21-2011, 08:59 AM
I know my friend, but it was the first time his lack of fundamentals caught up with him in my opinion.


True, thanks for posting up the vid. I'd originally scored that one for Jones like two of the judges, but watching it again in silence this afternoon I must admit........I scored it a draw. I agree about it being the first time his lack of fundamentals making him look vulnerable.

Roy was nothing like as good as he was against Woods or Ruiz earlier that year.

- Ram Raid -
10-21-2011, 12:47 PM
I agree that we've got to take into account that there is no concrete right or wrong way to box. . . for the 'gifted' few. If we put that kind of constraint on it then we don't have either of these fighters, who were both extraordinary. If we go for some kind of standard orthodox teaching of boxing as a martial art however, even allowing for technical variations and styles, as it is taught and practiced in gyms across the globe, then I'm not even sure that what Roy Jones Jr used to do in the ring constitutes boxing . . . as a martial art. When the physical abilities waned, and the fighters had no choice but to apply to some degree, the fundamentals of the noble art of self defence, Ali could adapt. Jones is still trying to rely on physical capabilities that are no longer there. So for me Ali had the better fundamentals.

Kid McCoy
10-21-2011, 04:12 PM
Thats why I focused on the Green fight, where Roy's punch resistance was comparable to dainty porceline, I'm certain that even I have held harder punches than that one without ill effect.

That was clear evidence that his chin had declined further than the Tarver fights. He took what looked like much harder punches from Montel Griffin in their first fight than he did against Green or Lebedev, who have stopped him recently. In Tarver 3 Jones certainly took harder blows than Green or Lebedev hit him with too.

The Tarver punch in fight 2 was good, I don't doubt that it might have knocked out many other light heavyweights too. Likewise, the Glen Johnson punch was pretty nasty.

But I think there is fairly clear evidence that punch resistance can decline in a fighter. You can blame it on a number of things; age, decades of headblows (severe or not), weightmaking......who knows?

I'm not disputing that Roy's punch resistance has gone now. All I'm saying is I'm skeptical that it suddenly disintegrated after Ruiz because we don't know if he ever could take a punch like in Tarver 2. His speed and reflexes were such that he didn't usually have to. He did take some shots against Griffin but Griffin wasn't really a puncher. It's not like a Saad Muhammad who proved he could absorb loads of punishment in his prime but by the end of his career he was being knocked out left and right, when the hundreds of wars he'd been in just caught up with him.

Sugarj
10-21-2011, 05:20 PM
I'm not disputing that Roy's punch resistance has gone now. All I'm saying is I'm skeptical that it suddenly disintegrated after Ruiz because we don't know if he ever could take a punch like in Tarver 2. His speed and reflexes were such that he didn't usually have to. He did take some shots against Griffin but Griffin wasn't really a puncher. It's not like a Saad Muhammad who proved he could absorb loads of punishment in his prime but by the end of his career he was being knocked out left and right, when the hundreds of wars he'd been in just caught up with him.

I'll be honest, I can't think of a shot quite as obviously hard as the Tarver one. As I said in an earlier post it may well have knocked out a good few light heavyweights. But next time out Jones looked fragile again against Glen Johnson, who we all know isn't really a noted puncher.....at least not in world class. From then on, his chin has just got steadily worse.

The thing is, other than the shot that decked him against Del Valle (which to my eyes didn't look that hard.....and Roy didn't seem particularly stunned) no one had even so much as seen Roy on 'clear street' staggering round the ring in a daze. Griffin as you say wasn't as big a puncher as Tarver, but there was very little effect in Jones when he did land cleanly. Likewise; Hopkins, Toney, Brannon, Hill and Ruiz all landed cleanly too......obviously with lesser punches than Tarver, but again with not even so much as a stagger from Jones.

You'd have thought that there would be a few clues to a weak or average chin along the 15 year way. But there wasn't.

Perhaps Tarver's punch really was that good. It may well have ruined Jones's punch resistance for good (but hell, I'm not a neurosurgeon!!). Or perhaps even shedding 10Lbs at age 35 can have a profound effect on punch resistance!

THE REED™
10-21-2011, 05:25 PM
The picture perfect left hayemaker hook that Tarver caught Roy with directly on the chin.. would knock down just about anyone..

Drop two weight classes at 35 years old on top of it... Not many people would stay standing.

- Ram Raid -
10-21-2011, 05:34 PM
'Roy could razzle and dazzle with the best of them. Almost as hard to hit as Will-o'-the-Wisp Willie Pep. Through his career he boxed like a man obsessed with the idea that getting hit was an unacceptable afront to his dignity. In the ring against the best in the division he was immaculate. Some of us wondered what would happen if an opponent finally broke through that elaborate defence and smacked him one. Now we know. . . . we'll remember Roy Jones as the classiest boxer of the modern era, but also with the glassiest chin' - Budd Schulberg. . . . . . . . . . . . . . A little harsh perhaps, but maybe the guys right.

THE REED™
10-21-2011, 05:36 PM
'Roy could razzle and dazzle with the best of them. Almost as hard to hit as Will-o'-the-Wisp Willie Pep. Through his career he boxed like a man obsessed with the idea that getting hit was an unacceptable afront to his dignity. In the ring against the best in the division he was immaculate. Some of us wondered what would happen if an opponent finally broke through that elaborate defence and smacked him one. Now we know. . . . we'll remember Roy Jones as the classiest boxer of the modern era, but also with the glassiest chin' - Budd Schulberg. . . . . . . . . . . . . . A little harsh perhaps, but maybe the guys right.

Yeah... maybe he's wrong too... Roy got hit plenty of times in his prime.

A seemingly huge myth that he never got hit for 15 years.

He got hit... hit hard, from MW, all the way to HW he got hit.. and hit clean.

- Ram Raid -
10-21-2011, 05:59 PM
Yeah... maybe he's wrong too... Roy got hit plenty of times in his prime.

A seemingly huge myth that he never got hit for 15 years.

He got hit... hit hard, from MW, all the way to HW he got hit.. and hit clean.

It'd be a good idea to go through his earlier fights and put together a highlight reel of him taking shots (sparing ourselves the later examples) to dispel this myth then. I'll look into it. . . . . . . I'd much rather believe that his punch resistance went over him always having a glass chin.

THE REED™
10-21-2011, 06:01 PM
It'd be a good idea to go through his earlier fights and put together a highlight reel of him taking shots (sparing ourselves the later examples) to dispel this myth then. I'll look into it. . . . . . . I'd much rather believe that his punch resistance went over him always having a glass chin.

It already exists.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/1IRwQADvvcY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Enjoy.

- Ram Raid -
10-21-2011, 06:23 PM
It already exists.



Enjoy.

Good man. Much Appreciated.

- Ram Raid -
10-21-2011, 06:34 PM
I was looking for shots that he didn't see coming and he takes a few of them. When you then compare them to the knockout that he suffers at the hands of Glen Johnson, he sees the punch coming and even starts to roll away from it but it still puts him out. There's definately a sharp decline in punch resistance and not just an inability to take a shot.

IronDanHamza
10-21-2011, 06:43 PM
I was looking for shots that he didn't see coming and he takes a few of them. When you then compare them to the knockout that he suffers at the hands of Glen Johnson, he sees the punch coming and even starts to roll away from it but it still puts him out. There's definately a sharp decline in punch resistance and not just an inability to take a shot.

I think there is absolutely no argument that Roy Jones punch resistance declined a huge amount by the time he fought Glen Johnson.

It was damn near diminished by then.

Roy's "glass chin" is a myth. He didn't have the best chin in the world but he absolutely no by means what so ever had a "glass chin".

JAB5239
10-21-2011, 07:02 PM
Jab, when your reflexes and punch resistance go anybodies fundamentals are going to look bad. If you can't counter punch and can't take a punch nothing is going to help you

Do me a favor please, post a video of Roy consistently using good fundamentals for an entire fight. You can't because there isn't one. And you're talking about his punch resistance being gone....who's to say he ever had good punch resistance to begin with? In my opinion if it wasn't for his ungodly speed and reflexes he would have gotten laid out long before he did because as great of a fighter as he was he depended on natural ability instead of learned skills.

Kid McCoy
10-21-2011, 07:25 PM
I'll be honest, I can't think of a shot quite as obviously hard as the Tarver one. As I said in an earlier post it may well have knocked out a good few light heavyweights. But next time out Jones looked fragile again against Glen Johnson, who we all know isn't really a noted puncher.....at least not in world class. From then on, his chin has just got steadily worse.

The thing is, other than the shot that decked him against Del Valle (which to my eyes didn't look that hard.....and Roy didn't seem particularly stunned) no one had even so much as seen Roy on 'clear street' staggering round the ring in a daze. Griffin as you say wasn't as big a puncher as Tarver, but there was very little effect in Jones when he did land cleanly. Likewise; Hopkins, Toney, Brannon, Hill and Ruiz all landed cleanly too......obviously with lesser punches than Tarver, but again with not even so much as a stagger from Jones.

You'd have thought that there would be a few clues to a weak or average chin along the 15 year way. But there wasn't.

Perhaps Tarver's punch really was that good. It may well have ruined Jones's punch resistance for good (but hell, I'm not a neurosurgeon!!). Or perhaps even shedding 10Lbs at age 35 can have a profound effect on punch resistance!

I never said Jones was never hit before, he just never got hit with a shot like that before. A punch like that flush on the chin would take out a lot of fighters. Getting KO'd by that doesn't tell me that Jones had a glass jaw or that it suddenly became glass. He just got taken out by a home run shot. Jones himself said "it could have happened at any time in my career." It happens sometimes. Look at Gene Fullmer. He took everything Ray Robinson could throw at him in their first fight, got KO'd cold in their second fight and in their third and fourth fights he once again took everything Robinson could throw at him.

Johnson was after a sustained beating rather than just a freak punch out of nowhere. Roy looked completely gunshy that fight and he's just gone downhill from there. Del Valle makes for an interesting comparison. Like Tarver he too was a southpaw and simultaneously caught Roy with a left as he was throwing his own. Who's to say if it had been Tarver in the ring that night it wouldn't have been the same result. He did look shaky for a few moments afterwards.

Greatest1942
10-21-2011, 10:21 PM
I will go with Ali....

SplitSecond
10-21-2011, 10:44 PM
Do me a favor please, post a video of Roy consistently using good fundamentals for an entire fight. You can't because there isn't one. And you're talking about his punch resistance being gone....who's to say he ever had good punch resistance to begin with? In my opinion if it wasn't for his ungodly speed and reflexes he would have gotten laid out long before he did because as great of a fighter as he was he depended on natural ability instead of learned skills.

stephan johnson and the felix trinidad fight

off my head, well, im not sure how a fundamental fighter is suppossed to fight but he did have his hands up and he did work off the jab, atleast in the johnson fight

IMDAZED
10-21-2011, 10:56 PM
Do me a favor please, post a video of Roy consistently using good fundamentals for an entire fight. You can't because there isn't one. And you're talking about his punch resistance being gone....who's to say he ever had good punch resistance to begin with? In my opinion if it wasn't for his ungodly speed and reflexes he would have gotten laid out long before he did because as great of a fighter as he was he depended on natural ability instead of learned skills.
It really isn't possible to go 15 years through four divisions, win titles in all of them, fight 50 times and not get your chin tested. If that is indeed the case, then Roy Jones Jr is the greatest defensive fighter that ever lived, "good fundamentals" or not.

Sugarj
10-22-2011, 10:29 AM
It'd be a good idea to go through his earlier fights and put together a highlight reel of him taking shots (sparing ourselves the later examples) to dispel this myth then. I'll look into it. . . . . . . I'd much rather believe that his punch resistance went over him always having a glass chin.

There is a good you Tube video that does just this. It shouldn't be hard to find.

Sorry already previously posted!!

SCtrojansbaby
10-22-2011, 12:10 PM
Watch the Castro fight Roy plays it relatively safe and uses his jab. That is probable his most "textbook" fight.

IMDAZED
10-22-2011, 05:33 PM
Watch the Castro fight Roy plays it relatively safe and uses his jab. That is probable his most "textbook" fight.

Or the Ruiz bout.

joseph5620
10-22-2011, 08:45 PM
Or the Ruiz bout.

The Pazienza fight too. Jones used a sharp and consistent jab in that fight.

fight_professor
10-22-2011, 09:19 PM
p4p who do you think is greater?

SCtrojansbaby
10-23-2011, 04:14 AM
p4p who do you think is greater?

They are my top 2 Roy was more dominant and consistent while Ali had more depth.

THE REED™
10-23-2011, 05:23 AM
It really isn't possible to go 15 years through four divisions, win titles in all of them, fight 50 times and not get your chin tested. If that is indeed the case, then Roy Jones Jr is the greatest defensive fighter that ever lived, "good fundamentals" or not.

I don't think Jab can unbiasely look at a Roy fight and see the what you are talking about... He's physically older than me but I don't think he watched the sport as early as I did... in that case it's harder for him to see what we're talking about..

JAB5239
10-23-2011, 07:18 AM
It really isn't possible to go 15 years through four divisions, win titles in all of them, fight 50 times and not get your chin tested. If that is indeed the case, then Roy Jones Jr is the greatest defensive fighter that ever lived, "good fundamentals" or not.

I don't think Jab can unbiasely look at a Roy fight and see the what you are talking about... He's physically older than me but I don't think he watched the sport as early as I did... in that case it's harder for him to see what we're talking about..

Considering I watched Ali-Frazier 3 with my father I think I've been watching boxing plenty long enough to understand the sport and draw logical assumptions. But that is neither here nor there. I never said Roy's chin wasn't tested, every fighters chin gets tested. Im also not saying Roy had a glass chin. But when his reflexes diminished he had a hard time taking a good punch and recovering. Can ANYONE say as a fact that if he never had those reflexes he wouldn't have been stopped sooner in his career? My basis for that is he wasn't a solid fundamental fighter. And had he not had those super human reflexes he would have been getting hit much more and much harder fighting the way he did.

SplitSecond
10-23-2011, 10:22 AM
Considering I watched Ali-Frazier 3 with my father I think I've been watching boxing plenty long enough to understand the sport and draw logical assumptions. But that is neither here nor there. I never said Roy's chin wasn't tested, every fighters chin gets tested. Im also not saying Roy had a glass chin. But when his reflexes diminished he had a hard time taking a good punch and recovering. Can ANYONE say as a fact that if he never had those reflexes he wouldn't have been stopped sooner in his career? My basis for that is he wasn't a solid fundamental fighter. And had he not had those super human reflexes he would have been getting hit much more and much harder fighting the way he did.

i can say if you watched roy jones enough you'd know it was his legs and not his reflexes that were first to go

that's why he gets clocked behind the ear with the right hand, he still has the reflex to turn his head the right direction, but no legs to move him back the way he did in his prime

JAB5239
10-23-2011, 12:43 PM
i can say if you watched roy jones enough you'd know it was his legs and not his reflexes that were first to go

that's why he gets clocked behind the ear with the right hand, he still has the reflex to turn his head the right direction, but no legs to move him back the way he did in his prime

And I can say legs are directly affected by reflexes. Either way, if Roy didn't have the natural gifts he did it is very plausible he would have gotten stopped earlier in his career.:dunno:

SplitSecond
10-23-2011, 03:22 PM
And I can say legs are directly affected by reflexes. Either way, if Roy didn't have the natural gifts he did it is very plausible he would have gotten stopped earlier in his career.:dunno:

@thebold, what :browraise:?

and ali would have been stopped earlier in his career too if he didn't have his natural gifts

JAB5239
10-23-2011, 04:11 PM
@thebold, what :browraise:?

and ali would have been stopped earlier in his career too if he didn't have his natural gifts

Reflexes are directly responsable for movement, no? And Ali had a proven chin when his reflexes were shot, Roy doesn't. Bad example my friend. Im not putting Jones down. At his best he was great, a freak of nature prodigy. But when he lost has natural gifts he had little to fall back on.

SplitSecond
10-23-2011, 04:28 PM
Reflexes are directly responsable for movement, no? And Ali had a proven chin when his reflexes were shot, Roy doesn't. Bad example my friend. Im not putting Jones down. At his best he was great, a freak of nature prodigy. But when he lost has natural gifts he had little to fall back on.

lol you didn't get it? an iron chin would be considered a natural gift

and no reflexes are not responsable for movement
look at toney, he still a great counterpuncher, wanna know why? because he's not using his legs, the first thing to go in a fighter

watch roy in the lebedev fight where he shows some fast counter hooks and rights
or the lacy fight when he is on the ropes making lacy look the fool

his problem is when someone rushes him and makes him use his legs, he can't step back like he used to

JAB5239
10-23-2011, 05:25 PM
lol you didn't get it? an iron chin would be considered a natural gift

and no reflexes are not responsable for movement
look at toney, he still a great counterpuncher, wanna know why? because he's not using his legs, the first thing to go in a fighter

watch roy in the lebedev fight where he shows some fast counter hooks and rights
or the lacy fight when he is on the ropes making lacy look the fool

his problem is when someone rushes him and makes him use his legs, he can't step back like he used to

Ok an iron chin is a natural gift..and Roy didn't have one. Lol, reflexes aren't responsible for movement? What is? And Toney is still good because of his great fundementals. Roy looked good against Lebedev because he is wide open and crude.

IronDanHamza
10-23-2011, 06:54 PM
Ok an iron chin is a natural gift..and Roy didn't have one. Lol, reflexes aren't responsible for movement? What is? And Toney is still good because of his great fundementals. Roy looked good against Lebedev because he is wide open and crude.

I'd say Toney's style often relies on reflexes also.

I think it's fair to argue that Roy Jones' chin was never tested. You don't go from Middleweight to Heavyweight winning World Titles beating certifed ATG's without getting your chin tested.

JAB5239
10-23-2011, 07:56 PM
I'd say Toney's style often relies on reflexes also.

I think it's fair to argue that Roy Jones' chin was never tested. You don't go from Middleweight to Heavyweight winning World Titles beating certifed ATG's without getting your chin tested.

I don't think anyone would argue Toney's reflexes aren't what they use to be either. He get's by on superior technique and timing though, as well as a great chin.

SplitSecond
10-23-2011, 09:15 PM
Ok an iron chin is a natural gift..and Roy didn't have one. Lol, reflexes aren't responsible for movement? What is? And Toney is still good because of his great fundementals. Roy looked good against Lebedev because he is wide open and crude.
obviously you know something we dont, so why dont you just spit it out and say why you think reflexes is directly related to a fighters legs?

and toney is fundemental? the philly shell is fundemental? i always thought the fundemental guard would be both hands up, not virtually the same stance as roy "no fundementals" jones jnr, but i suppose you're gonna say how toney jabs
toney is still good because he doesn't need legs for his style, shoulder roll is just that, shoulder roll

and you're not comprehending, i never said roy looked good vs lebedev, we aren't gauging the performances, i was explaining how roy's reaction time is still fairly sharp, but then look at his leaping left hooks and how fast he can jump back(something i noticed leading up to the danny green fight), it's all very slow

oh and a great example of great chin(not saying roy's chin was great) to china chin is chuck liddell

Miburo
10-24-2011, 05:35 AM
Ali because he had a great jab which he always worked off of.

RubenSonny
10-24-2011, 05:46 AM
When any fighters legs go, they usually have little left.

JAB5239
10-24-2011, 06:50 AM
obviously you know something we dont, so why dont you just spit it out and say why you think reflexes is directly related to a fighters legs?

You haven't answered my question, what is responsible for movement?

Have you ever had a friend kidding around a throw a punch meant to startle you? What happens? Your hands shoot up to protect yourself. Those are reflexes. Im not a doctor but Im going to go out on a limb and say the same thing applies for legs. If you've ever fought for any amount of time you will know that When you're in the ring you don't think duck, move or put your hands up when attacked. You do it because it is a conditioned reaction. Reactions are regulated by reflexes.

and toney is fundemental? the philly shell is fundemental? i always thought the fundemental guard would be both hands up, not virtually the same stance as roy "no fundementals" jones jnr, but i suppose you're gonna say how toney jabs
toney is still good because he doesn't need legs for his style, shoulder roll is just that, shoulder roll

Lol! Yeah, Toney is just the Philly shell and a shoulder roll! :lol1:

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and you're not comprehending, i never said roy looked good vs lebedev, we aren't gauging the performances, i was explaining how roy's reaction time is still fairly sharp, but then look at his leaping left hooks and how fast he can jump back(something i noticed leading up to the danny green fight), it's all very slow

Reaction time is how long it takes the brain to process something and send a message to the muscles. The muscles than have a reflex response. So if you're claiming Roy's reaction time is still fairly sharp than you've made my case for me about reflexes. Thank you.

oh and a great example of great chin(not saying roy's chin was great) to china chin is chuck liddell

Since you brought it up, isn't it ironic that Both Jones and Liddell are the same age and started getting their lights turned out regularly around the same time? Reflexes my man, reflexes. How many times have we heard a fighter past his best explain after a loss how he could see the punches coming and knew exactly what he was supposed to do but his body just didn't react fast enough? In other words the brain sent the message to the muscles but the reflexes just weren't cooperating.

Spartacus Sully
10-24-2011, 07:09 AM
they both had **** fundamentals.

reflexes rely on gym time.

if you cant spend hours honing your reflexes sparring every week, your reflexs are going to be ****.

SplitSecond
10-24-2011, 09:25 AM
no no

this doesn't explain what i've been saying, if he still has the reflexes to counter sharply and the speed to throw blinding combo's but is slow to leap with a hook and pull back like in his prime how is that reflexes and simply not skeletal muscle degeneration on one of the most abused muscles in the body?

how many 36 year olds have we seen with great foot speed and explosivness?
and the way you talk you it's as if slower reflexes/reaction time = glass chin
which although yea, reflexes is basically attributed to just about everything but you're also forgetting my example where if roy is laying on the ropes he can still make you miss(although obviously his reflexes now are slower)

and roy also has stamina issues now, will you also say reflexes or could it be age even though he might be(trying) to train and workout as much as he did in his prime?

i said age because i dont want to pretend like i know anything about how muscles work, although i remember reading about how we lose the fast type 2B myofibres slowly

so basically could it be that the body is sending the signals but simply doesn't have the strenght/bounce on the legs?
and the drop in hormones like testosterone that fill you with all the energy and competitive juices that has older boxers burn out(also helps with muscle growth and strenght)

because think about it, i could have the boxing knowledge of a life time, but if my muscles are not in the shape to perform what my reflexes remember and want then im not gonna be of much use


P.S to an extent you do think about how you will react when you see a punch, you can choose you're reaction most definitely, you can even decide how fast you wish to accelerate to move out of the way, but if you dont meet the requirements to get out of the way, you're not going to get out of the way

IMDAZED
10-24-2011, 11:59 AM
Considering I watched Ali-Frazier 3 with my father I think I've been watching boxing plenty long enough to understand the sport and draw logical assumptions. But that is neither here nor there. I never said Roy's chin wasn't tested, every fighters chin gets tested. Im also not saying Roy had a glass chin. But when his reflexes diminished he had a hard time taking a good punch and recovering. Can ANYONE say as a fact that if he never had those reflexes he wouldn't have been stopped sooner in his career? My basis for that is he wasn't a solid fundamental fighter. And had he not had those super human reflexes he would have been getting hit much more and much harder fighting the way he did.
He took plenty of big shots against Tarver in their first bout and didn't fold. It happens. If you're point is that he was stopped because he got old, yeah, you're right. Happens to everyone.

JAB5239
10-24-2011, 06:05 PM
no no

this doesn't explain what i've been saying, if he still has the reflexes to counter sharply and the speed to throw blinding combo's but is slow to leap with a hook and pull back like in his prime how is that reflexes and simply not skeletal muscle degeneration on one of the most abused muscles in the body?

how many 36 year olds have we seen with great foot speed and explosivness?
and the way you talk you it's as if slower reflexes/reaction time = glass chin
which although yea, reflexes is basically attributed to just about everything but you're also forgetting my example where if roy is laying on the ropes he can still make you miss(although obviously his reflexes now are slower)

and roy also has stamina issues now, will you also say reflexes or could it be age even though he might be(trying) to train and workout as much as he did in his prime?

i said age because i dont want to pretend like i know anything about how muscles work, although i remember reading about how we lose the fast type 2B myofibres slowly

so basically could it be that the body is sending the signals but simply doesn't have the strenght/bounce on the legs?
and the drop in hormones like testosterone that fill you with all the energy and competitive juices that has older boxers burn out(also helps with muscle growth and strenght)

because think about it, i could have the boxing knowledge of a life time, but if my muscles are not in the shape to perform what my reflexes remember and want then im not gonna be of much use


P.S to an extent you do think about how you will react when you see a punch, you can choose you're reaction most definitely, you can even decide how fast you wish to accelerate to move out of the way, but if you dont meet the requirements to get out of the way, you're not going to get out of the way

My man, the only thing I am getting at is Jones has slowed down and gets hit more. Can we agree to this? If we can than you have to concede the possibility that without his prime speed, reflexes, reaction time or whatever he could have been getting knocked out earlier in his career. I don't think either of us are doctor's so Im not trying to get in a physiology debate. You make good points and you're a good poster, I just don't see us getting anywhere.

PS - to answer the question of how many 36 year olds have I seen with great foot speed and explosiveness? Off hand the only one that comes to mind is Sergio Martinez. Im not entirely sure that is all natural either. Im sure there are others, but generally fighters start losing a step in their early to mid 30's.

kendom
10-24-2011, 06:16 PM
I hope nobody was offended by this question.. i wasn't trying to suggest in any way that they way Ali and Jones fought was wrong..I just wanted to know who of the 2 relied more on physical ability.. who was more orthodox

EDIT:So then it seems that the case for Ali would be his great jab, his better ability to roll with punches

The case for Jones is his body punching, so its kinda even

JAB5239
10-24-2011, 06:23 PM
I hope nobody was offended by this question.. i wasn't trying to suggest in any way that they way Ali and Jones fought was wrong..I just wanted to know who of the 2 relied more on physical ability.. who was more orthodox

Don't sweat it bro. It's a good thread that has made for some interesting posts and debate. Keep em coming.