View Full Version : "THE LIST" - list the top ten best boxers of ALL TIME


UglyPug
10-17-2011, 06:47 AM
Not from this time, that time, full time or part time, but of ALL TIME. . . Pound for pound of course. . . This does not necessarily mean one boxer would beat the other if they were matched up, of course skills come into the argument, but I think the evolution of the sport as well as medicine and training, etc. makes it unfair . . Here goes my list:

1.) Sugar Ray Robinson - I don't think you can make an argument otherwise for this spot. . .
2.) Henry Armstrong - I think what he was doing in his era was just amazing. . .
3.) Harry Greb - Beating up on Jack Dempsey despite being 30 pounds lighter. . . Skill personified. . . Toughness personified. . . GREATNESS personified. . .
4.) Willie Pep - The original "defensive wizard" - He had a Hopkins thing going on with his timing of punches, along with some sweet pea-esque upper body movement - UNHERALDED and UNMATCHEDin the defensive category for decades and decades. . .
5.) Joe Gans - greatest lightweight boxer of all time. . . Well rounded. . . tough as nails. . . fast as lightening. . . just a THROWBACK BEAST. . .
6.) Benny Leonard - Old school as old school gets. . . . Excellent power in both hands as evinced by 70 KO's in 90 fights. . . Career spanned from 126-150, with the bulk of his achievements coming at lightweight. Unlike other fighters who significantly drop off upon moving up in weight, he REMAINED just as true, with only two losses above the lightweight limit!
7.) Sugar Ray Leonard - SWEETNESS! IMO the FASTEST HANDS the sport has ever seen. . . He had it all. . . literally. . . one of my favorites to watch.
8.) SWEET PEA - pernell whitaker - His defense, and moreover, ability to TRANSITION from defense into blistering offense has never been seen before, and i doubt we will ever see.
9.) Roberto Duran - HANDS OF STONE! Second best lightweight fighter of all time. . . maybe the best, depending on who you ask. . . The way he stood toe to toe in a losing effort to Hagler was astonishing. . . Beat PRIME Ray Leonard. . .
10.) Manny Pacquiao - PACSMASH! first ever 8 division champ. . . weightclasses, and catchweights notwithstanding - if it was so easy, how come ain't nobody else done it? THE MODERN DAY HENRY ARMSTRONG. . . Beat Mexican Legends Eric Morales Twice, MAB Twice, JMM once. . . Look up pound for pound in the dictionary and right behind sugar ray and armstrong you'll see pac

UglyPug
10-17-2011, 07:07 AM
I know a lot of people are going to blast me for my list. . . for putting manny at 10. .. call me a *******, say i dont know **** about boxing, claim i don't even like boxing, etc., etc., etc. . .

But it's just my opinion that Manny belongs somewhere between 10-20 on any all time list. . . I mean, to win world titles in EIGHT WEIGHT CLASSES?! UNHEARD OF!

Also, I expect to get Flack for not having Ali on my list. . . Well, he would be number 11. . . I just think that because he's a heavyweight, the most popular division, causes him to get A LOT more attention than other fighters who did MUCH GREATER THINGS, and had greater abilities. . .

Capaedia
10-17-2011, 07:12 AM
1.) Sugar Ray Robinson.
2.) Joe Gans
3.) Henry Armstrong
4.) Roberto Duran
5.) Benny Leonard
6.) Harry Greb
7.) Les Darcy loljk sorry McGoorty. Sugar Ray Leonard
8.) Willie Pep
9.) Joe Louis
10.) Muhammad Ali

Problem with the reasoning for putting Pacquiao in on account of the 8 division championships is that, for example Sugar Ray Robinson, to have achieved that, he would have had to have won every title in boxing.

Titles and divisions are not as meaningful as they used to be, not by a long shot. Especially when you factor in that one of those titles came by catchweight. Seriously what the **** is that?

NChristo
10-17-2011, 07:21 AM
http://www.josportsinc.com/item_images/1285803839.jpg

SBleeder
10-17-2011, 07:26 AM
1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Harrry Greb
4. Muhammad Ali
5. Sam Langford
6. Willie Pep
7. Ezzard Charles
8. Carlos Monzon
9. Joe Gans
10. Archie Moore


Pacquiao in the top 35 at bet. He has won FOUR world titles- Linear titles, not alphabet portions of titles, are what count.

SBleeder
10-17-2011, 07:29 AM
Not from this time, that time, full time or part time, but of ALL TIME. . . Pound for pound of course. . . This does not necessarily mean one boxer would beat the other if they were matched up, of course skills come into the argument, but I think the evolution of the sport as well as medicine and training, etc. makes it unfair . . Here goes my list:

1.) Sugar Ray Robinson - I don't think you can make an argument otherwise for this spot. . .
2.) Henry Armstrong - I think what he was doing in his era was just amazing. . .
3.) Harry Greb - Beating up on Jack Dempsey despite being 30 pounds lighter. . . Skill personified. . . Toughness personified. . . GREATNESS personified. . .
4.) Willie Pep - The original "defensive wizard" - He had a Hopkins thing going on with his timing of punches, along with some sweet pea-esque upper body movement - UNHERALDED and UNMATCHEDin the defensive category for decades and decades. . .
5.) Benny Leonard - OLD school of all OLD SCHOOL pugs. . . Amazing abilities and resume.
6.) Joe Gans - greatest lightweight boxer of all time. . . Well rounded. . . tough as nails. . . fast as lightening. . . just a THROWBACK BEAST. . .
7.) Sugar Ray Leonard - SWEETNESS! IMO the FASTEST HANDS the sport has ever seen. . . He had it all. . . literally. . . one of my favorites to watch.
8.) SWEET PEA - pernell whitaker - His defense, and moreover, ability to TRANSITION from defense into blistering offense has never been seen before, and i doubt we will ever see.
9.) Roberto Duran - HANDS OF STONE! Second best lightweight fighter of all time. . . maybe the best, depending on who you ask. . . The way he stood toe to toe in a losing effort to Hagler was astonishing. . . Beat PRIME Ray Leonard. . .
10.) Manny Pacquiao - PACSMASH! first ever 8 division champ. . . weightclasses, and catchweights notwithstanding - if it was so easy, how come ain't nobody else done it? THE MODERN DAY HENRY ARMSTRONG. . . Beat Mexican Legends Eric Morales Twice, MAB Twice, JMM once. . . Look up pound for pound in the dictionary and right behind sugar ray and armstrong you'll see pac

Why do you call Gans and Duran the two greatest lightweights of all time... but yet you have Benny Leonard ahead of both?

UglyPug
10-17-2011, 07:32 AM
1.) Sugar Ray Robinson.
2.) Joe Gans
3.) Henry Armstrong
4.) Roberto Duran
5.) Benny Leonard
6.) Harry Greb
7.) Les Darcy loljk sorry McGoorty. Sugar Ray Leonard
8.) Willie Pep
9.) Joe Louis
10.) Muhammad Ali

Problem with the reasoning for putting Pacquiao in on account of the 8 division championships is that, for example Sugar Ray Robinson, to have achieved that, he would have had to have won every title in boxing.

Titles and divisions are not as meaningful as they used to be, not by a long shot. Especially when you factor in that one of those titles came by catchweight. Seriously what the **** is that?


Still Pacquiao's weight has spanned greater than SRR's and Henry Armstrong's. . . Even if there were less weight classes, Pacquiao still spanned more weight. . . Also, it's not all about being 8 division champ: The fact that he beat morales twice, MAB twice, and Marquez once (probably twice) is damn impressive. . . People get hung up on his last few fights like Mosley, rather than looking at the totality of his resume.

But I respect your opinion, just like everybody else who makes an intelligent argument about why they believe Pacquiao isn't as deserving as I believe him to be. . . That's what makes boxing so great - it's so subjective.

UglyPug
10-17-2011, 07:38 AM
Why do you call Gans and Duran the two greatest lightweights of all time... but yet you have Benny Leonard ahead of both?

Because of their respective accomplishments at lightweight in comparison to Leonard's entire career. Upon futher review, I'm switching Gans and Leonard, though. . . I think the conditions he fought in his era (in comparison to the more "posh" rules Duran fought under) entitle him to a greater spot. All three you could arguably make a case for the greatest lightweight of all time.

Totality of careers: Leonard only had 6 losses compared to 90 wins and 70 KO's - whereas Duran had 103 wins (70 KO's), but had 16 losses. Just something about Duran at lightweight. . . It's like he was a MW fighting at lightweight. I'd definitely pick Duran over leonard @ 135. . . But "era for era" I think Leonard deserves a higher spot. LIke I said, it's really a good argument for Gans, Leonard, and Duran.

UglyPug
10-17-2011, 08:03 AM
1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Harrry Greb
4. Muhammad Ali
5. Sam Langford
6. Willie Pep
7. Ezzard Charles
8. Carlos Monzon
9. Joe Gans
10. Archie Moore


Pacquiao in the top 35 at bet. He has won FOUR world titles- Linear titles, not alphabet portions of titles, are what count.


Still, his career has spanned more pounds than Robinson's and Armstrong's. . . I still say if it's so easy to win alphanet titles in 8 weight classes with catchweights, why hasn't anybody else done it? I think Manny's combination of speed and power, along with his amazing ability to win titles against world class fighters at so many weight classes, entitle him to being the 10th best fighter of all time. . .

I think it's easier to justify Manny's positioning than Carlos Monzon at number 8, or Ezzard Charles at number 7. . I feel ya on the Sam Langford ranking, though. . . I really fux with Langford - one of hte most underrated and unknown BEASTS there is!

IronDanHamza
10-17-2011, 09:49 AM
Still, his career has spanned more pounds than Robinson's and Armstrong's. . . I still say if it's so easy to win alphanet titles in 8 weight classes with catchweights, why hasn't anybody else done it? I think Manny's combination of speed and power, along with his amazing ability to win titles against world class fighters at so many weight classes, entitle him to being the 10th best fighter of all time. . .

So where is Jimmy Mclarnin in your list? He has spanned as many Lbs as Manny Pacquaio.

He may not have won World Titles in all those weight classes because it's eaiser to win titles now but he went from Flyweight to Welterweight beating HOF'ers.

I think it's easier to justify Manny's positioning than Carlos Monzon at number 8, or Ezzard Charles at number 7. . I feel ya on the Sam Langford ranking, though. . . I really fux with Langford - one of hte most underrated and unknown BEASTS there is!

Why? Ezzard Charles being #7 is too low for him.

Ezzard Charles has one of the greatest and most stacked resumes of all time he is a minimum Top 10 ATG and absolutely without question greater than Manny Pacquaio.

IronDanHamza
10-17-2011, 09:57 AM
1. Ray Robinson
2. Harry Greb
3. Sam Langford
4. Henry Armstrong
5. Ezzard Charles
6. Benny Leonard
7. Bob Fitzsimmons
8. Willie Pep
9. Archie Moore
10. Roberto Duran

UglyPug
10-17-2011, 10:01 AM
So where is Jimmy Mclarnin in your list? He has spanned as many Lbs as Manny Pacquaio.

He may not have won World Titles in all those weight classes because it's eaiser to win titles now but he went from Flyweight to Welterweight beating HOF'ers.



Why? Ezzard Charles being #7 is too low for him.

Ezzard Charles has one of the greatest and most stacked resumes of all time he is a minimum Top 10 ATG and absolutely without question greater than Manny Pacquaio.

McLarnin is up there. . . Hasn't accomplished what Manny has, and he doesn't have the skillset Manny has either. . .

What is your list?

UglyPug
10-17-2011, 10:02 AM
1. Ray Robinson
2. Harry Greb
3. Sam Langford
4. Henry Armstrong
5. Ezzard Charles
6. Benny Leonard
7. Bob Fitzsimmons
8. Willie Pep
9. Archie Moore
10. Roberto Duran

Good list. . . I might replace Pacquiao with Archie Moore. . .

Pacquiao is definitely deserves to be mentioned as a top 15 fighter of all time, though.

IronDanHamza
10-17-2011, 10:16 AM
McLarnin is up there. . . Hasn't accomplished what Manny has, and he doesn't have the skillset Manny has either. . .

How's that? Mclarnin's resume is utterly superior to Pacquaio's.

The '8 weight class' cop -out doesn't apply because Mclarnin covered as much weight excpet beat superior competition.

Mclarnin beat more HOF'ers than almost anyone in history.

He has accomplished absolutely what Pacquiao as and then some.

As for the skill set, I disagree.

He may not have the natural ability Pacquaio has but he certainly has a skill-set at the very least as good.

IronDanHamza
10-17-2011, 10:19 AM
Good list. . . I might replace Pacquiao with Archie Moore. . .

Pacquiao is definitely deserves to be mentioned as a top 15 fighter of all time, though.

That would be blasphemy.

Archie Moore is greater than Manny Pacquaio and there is genuinely no argument.

I would say more around the 35-40 mark.

Not even close to the Top 15.

TheHolyCross
10-17-2011, 10:41 AM
if we had little footage of dela hoya and just saw his resume how high would he rank?

IronDanHamza
10-17-2011, 10:53 AM
if we had little footage of dela hoya and just saw his resume how high would he rank?

I don't think it would make much of a difference, if any.

We would still have multiple Newspaper reports of his fights with Whitaker, Quartey and Sturm being controversial endings in his opponents favour as we would with his controversial loss's to Trinidad and Mosley 2.

So most would grasp what his resume should actually read.

Similar to Ortiz-Locche, very limited footage but most grasp that Ortiz was the righftul winner without it.

So personally I would still have him outside the Top 100.

UglyPug
10-17-2011, 11:01 AM
that's the beauty of boxing. . . sometimes nobody is wrong. . . i stand by my opinion, and support it, as you stand by yours, and support it. . .

nobody will see eye to eye, and sometimes ranking will vary drastically. . .

SCtrojansbaby
10-17-2011, 11:37 AM
I don't think it would make much of a difference, if any.

We would still have multiple Newspaper reports of his fights with Whitaker, Quartey and Sturm being controversial endings in his opponents favour as we would with his controversial loss's to Trinidad and Mosley 2.

So most would grasp what his resume should actually read.

Similar to Ortiz-Locche, very limited footage but most grasp that Ortiz was the righftul winner without it.

So personally I would still have him outside the Top 100.

How can you base your opinions on other peoples opinions?

IronDanHamza
10-17-2011, 11:38 AM
that's the beauty of boxing. . . sometimes nobody is wrong. . . i stand by my opinion, and support it, as you stand by yours, and support it. . .

nobody will see eye to eye, and sometimes ranking will vary drastically. . .

I don't entirely agree.

I think there are times when no one is wrong I.e If people were debating say who is greater between two fighters around the same ranking criteria like Benny Leonard and Ezzard Charles.

Whereas, if someone were to try to argue that for example a great fighter like Dick Tiger is greater than say Ray Leonard then they would be outright wrong. Despite the fact the argument is ovet two ATG's.

And Manny Pacquaio being greater than Archie Moore and a Top 15 ATG is one of those wrong moments.

There just isn't a reasonable or logical argument for it.

IronDanHamza
10-17-2011, 11:43 AM
How can you base your opinions on other peoples opinions?

If the fight is considered controversial and 9 out of 10 Newspaper articles consider the other fighter won and the majority of the crowd were documented to be booing the decision chances are that it's right.

In terms of converisal decisions, of course.

McGoorty
10-17-2011, 12:37 PM
I know a lot of people are going to blast me for my list. . . for putting manny at 10. .. call me a *******, say i dont know **** about boxing, claim i don't even like boxing, etc., etc., etc. . .

But it's just my opinion that Manny belongs somewhere between 10-20 on any all time list. . . I mean, to win world titles in EIGHT WEIGHT CLASSES?! UNHEARD OF!

Also, I expect to get Flack for not having Ali on my list. . . Well, he would be number 11. . . I just think that because he's a heavyweight, the most popular division, causes him to get A LOT more attention than other fighters who did MUCH GREATER THINGS, and had greater abilities. . .
I won't blast you mate,... I would have it a little different in places, I don't agree with Whittaker there but if he's a favourite of yours why not put him,... this list represents your thoughts...... all great names,..... I have Benny, Pep, SRR and Gans there in any I do. I rate Greb, Duran and Armstrong and Paquiao highly but I just don't really know exactly where after my top 4 of SRR, Benny, Pep and Gans........ for the next 6 or 16,... I am trying to squeeze 45 in there..... my maths ain't top-notch.

SCtrojansbaby
10-17-2011, 12:40 PM
If the fight is considered controversial and 9 out of 10 Newspaper articles consider the other fighter won and the majority of the crowd were documented to be booing the decision chances are that it's right.

In terms of converisal decisions, of course.


IMO that is a terrible basis for ranking fighters

IronDanHamza
10-17-2011, 01:00 PM
IMO that is a terrible basis for ranking fighters

Not sure where in my post I said that's how I rank fighters.

I said that's how a robbery could be indentified without footage. In so many words.

McGoorty
10-17-2011, 01:05 PM
1.) Sugar Ray Robinson.
2.) Joe Gans
3.) Henry Armstrong
4.) Roberto Duran
5.) Benny Leonard
6.) Harry Greb
7.) Les Darcy loljk sorry McGoorty. Sugar Ray Leonard
8.) Willie Pep
9.) Joe Louis
10.) Muhammad Ali

Problem with the reasoning for putting Pacquiao in on account of the 8 division championships is that, for example Sugar Ray Robinson, to have achieved that, he would have had to have won every title in boxing.

Titles and divisions are not as meaningful as they used to be, not by a long shot. Especially when you factor in that one of those titles came by catchweight. Seriously what the **** is that?
That's all right buddy, I take it Darcy is at #11......... I'm considering him. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think there is a massive difference in a Greatest list and a Most Talented and/or Best List......... I have Darcy in my top 5 Most-Talented All Time list.

McGoorty
10-17-2011, 01:12 PM
That would be blasphemy.

Archie Moore is greater than Manny Pacquaio and there is genuinely no argument.

I would say more around the 35-40 mark.

Not even close to the Top 15.
Be fair but,.... Pacquiao has plenty of time to move way up the list, imagine if he knocks out say Tarver or even the ATG Legend because he beat a legend Danny Green.... Pacquiao could be the man who beat the legend who beat the legend..... BI-LEGENDARY ??

IronDanHamza
10-17-2011, 01:25 PM
Be fair but,.... Pacquiao has plenty of time to move way up the list, imagine if he knocks out say Tarver or even the ATG Legend because he beat a legend Danny Green.... Pacquiao could be the man who beat the legend who beat the legend..... BI-LEGENDARY ??

:lol1: :lol1:

That's a good point!

:lol1:

McGoorty
10-17-2011, 01:53 PM
:lol1: :lol1:

That's a good point!

:lol1:
I like to be serious then end with a joke..... I was actually having a real big stab at the UFC crap when they say the if you beat a legend then you are a legend, even if you beat a guy who has lost 8 out of his last 11 fights by KO or submission...... I cannot believe how many times those tools have said that..... and I love those laughing green faces,,, thanks.

TAC602
10-17-2011, 01:54 PM
This is something I don't normally like to do because I inevitably feel compelled to meet the status quo by listing the same usual suspects who fought in the early 20th century and put together resumes that are just flat out impossible to compare to, much in the same way it is for baseball pitchers like Cy Young, Christy Mathewson, Walter Johnson, et al. Just as no modern pitcher could throw 400 innings in a season, no modern fighter is going to have 200+ some odd bouts. It just simply is not happening period, and just as in baseball, remants of that type of stuff died with guys wrapping up their careers around the 1960s.

So yeah, the Greatest fighters are inarguably Harry Greb, Sam Langford, Henry Armstrong, Sugar Ray Robinson, Joe Gans, et al. Langford and Greb a toss up at No. 1, SRR third.

How I really feel about 'best' is more along the lines of Muhammad Ali, Roberto Duran, Ray Leonard, Pernell Whitaker, Marvin Hagler, Carlos Monzon, Jose Napoles, etc. No amount of newspaper clippings, books, documentaries can change how I feel about what my eyes tell me. That isn't an old timer's fault, it's my own bias I can't get over mixed with a smidge of ignorance.

McGoorty
10-17-2011, 03:12 PM
This is something I don't normally like to do because I inevitably feel compelled to meet the status quo by listing the same usual suspects who fought in the early 20th century and put together resumes that are just flat out impossible to compare to, much in the same way it is for baseball pitchers like Cy Young, Christy Mathewson, Walter Johnson, et al. Just as no modern pitcher could throw 400 innings in a season, no modern fighter is going to have 200+ some odd bouts. It just simply is not happening period, and just as in baseball, remants of that type of stuff died with guys wrapping up their careers around the 1960s.

So yeah, the Greatest fighters are inarguably Harry Greb, Sam Langford, Henry Armstrong, Sugar Ray Robinson, Joe Gans, et al. Langford and Greb a toss up at No. 1, SRR third.

How I really feel about 'best' is more along the lines of Muhammad Ali, Roberto Duran, Ray Leonard, Pernell Whitaker, Marvin Hagler, Carlos Monzon, Jose Napoles, etc. No amount of newspaper clippings, books, documentaries can change how I feel about what my eyes tell me. That isn't an old timer's fault, it's my own bias I can't get over mixed with a smidge of ignorance.
There is a lot more to it than just looking at a record of names there are many factors people here don't always factor in. There is never a concensus opinion of any list ever made.... I don't know about baseball... But cricket has never seen a player remotely as good as Don Bradman in the 40's...... and he was even better in the 30's..... never been a sportsman to approach his level of genius and total domination.... to this day he is statistically and factually, virtually twice as good as the second best player of all time,,,, there is no consensus on positions #2,.... to 200 but.

SCtrojansbaby
10-18-2011, 12:03 AM
my list

1.Roy
2.Ali
3.Leonard
4.Chavez
5.Monzon
6.Duran
7.Foreman
8.Hopkins
9.McCallum
10.Barrera

Capaedia
10-18-2011, 12:41 AM
Still, his career has spanned more pounds than Robinson's and Armstrong's. . . I still say if it's so easy to win alphanet titles in 8 weight classes with catchweights, why hasn't anybody else done it? I think Manny's combination of speed and power, along with his amazing ability to win titles against world class fighters at so many weight classes, entitle him to being the 10th best fighter of all time. . .

I think it's easier to justify Manny's positioning than Carlos Monzon at number 8, or Ezzard Charles at number 7. . I feel ya on the Sam Langford ranking, though. . . I really fux with Langford - one of hte most underrated and unknown BEASTS there is!

I didn't say it was easy. Accomplishing something that wasn't easy is what gets most fighters into the top 100. But I've got plenty of other fighters to give priority over Pacquiao for the top spots. Really at this level a lot of it comes down to opinion as you said

Excuse me while I bash my head on my desk for forgetting to mention him, normally I have Langford at 3rd. Lightweight to competitive with Jack Johnson, beast indeed.

Also, what happened to the picture with Hearns? Once in a lifetime thing that.

SBleeder
10-18-2011, 07:19 AM
my list

1.Roy
2.Ali
3.Leonard
4.Chavez
5.Monzon
6.Duran
7.Foreman
8.Hopkins
9.McCallum
10.Barrera

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s238/bradly2795/lol_wut.jpg

Kid McCoy
10-18-2011, 09:31 AM
Still, his career has spanned more pounds than Robinson's and Armstrong's. . . I still say if it's so easy to win alphanet titles in 8 weight classes with catchweights, why hasn't anybody else done it? I think Manny's combination of speed and power, along with his amazing ability to win titles against world class fighters at so many weight classes, entitle him to being the 10th best fighter of all time. . .

I think it's easier to justify Manny's positioning than Carlos Monzon at number 8, or Ezzard Charles at number 7. . I feel ya on the Sam Langford ranking, though. . . I really fux with Langford - one of hte most underrated and unknown BEASTS there is!

Two things to bear in mind when talking about Pac's success in different divisions in comparison with past fighters. It's much easier to accumulate titles now simply because there are many, many more belts available. In Robinson's era there were eight established divisions each with one champion. Today there are 17 divisions with five belts in each. More champions mean there are also more weaker champions. All Pac has to do is beat a David Diaz and suddenly he's world champion in another division.

The other factor is the different weigh in rules. In Robinson's day you had to weigh in on the day of the fight. Today weigh ins take place up to two days before, which means a boxer can cut down into a smaller division they don't belong in and then rehydrate back to their ideal weight. Look at Williams and Margarito. These guys are fighting as welterweights while weighing 160 in the ring. Pac's ring weight has been around 140-47 ever since his days at super-feather. Could he have fought at 126 or 130 if he had to weigh in at ringside?

That's why I don't mark past fighters down for not winning as many belts as Pac. Under today's conditions Robinson could easily have picked up titles from 130 through 168, if not 175. And who knows how many belts Sam Langford or Mickey Walker would have ended up with. Under past conditions with fewer divisions, fewer titles and same day weigh ins I doubt Pac would have been a champion in eight divisions.

McGoorty
10-18-2011, 07:23 PM
I just found a great article about Moore and Burley, I will paste a sample of that, here is the link for this great article...http://www.*********.com/garfields/mooreburley.htm ------------------The Apprentice:
Archie Moore vs. Charley Burley


By Greg Smith. EXCERPT ;During the same era, however, other great black fighters like Holman Williams, Charley Burley, Eddie Booker, and Cocoa Kid never got the recognition, or the title shot, they deserved. While Henry Armstrong was the reigning welterweight king, Cocoa Kid defeated Holman Williams for something called ***8220; The Colored Welterweight Title***8221; in 1940 before both fighters developed into middleweights. If Archie Moore didn***8217;t have an unusual aging cycle, his name and career would likely be just a footnote in boxing history.

Archie Moore was one of the most lucid and brilliant practitioners in the history of the sport. If you believe Moore***8217;s contention that he was born in 1913, then he didn***8217;t get a title shot until he was 39-years-old. He spent several years as the #1 contender in the light heavyweight division before he got Maxim in the ring. Like many fighters of his era, he served a long, arduous, and unfair apprenticeship, and admitted that the legacy of Johnson proved problematic for far too many. Here is a verbatim Moore quote made in reference to Johnson: ***8220;The man was a disaster to anyone who came near him. American blacks are still paying for him." .............................. Excerpt : n contrast, Charley Burley never got a title shot, and although he was inducted into the Hall of Fame, until recently he remained enigmatic. In an excellent new book about Burley, his career and life are spelled out beautifully by Allen Rosenfeld in an extraordinarily detailed 600 page tome entitled: Charley Burley: The Life and Hard Times of an Uncrowned Champion. Rosenfeld brilliantly sifts through the labyrinth of complexity surrounding Burley, and draws a perfect retrospective of both Burley and the era in which he fought.

As other dedicated journalists and boxing historians have pointed out in fragments over the years, Rosenfeld did a great job showing us how Pittsburgh counterparts Billy Conn, Fritzie Zivic, and even college-educated middleweight, Billy Soose, often overshadowed Burley in a variety of ways. Burley***8217;s style can best be characterized as subtle brilliance, but that didn***8217;t help him from a business standpoint. Bad timing, bad business decisions, and a quiet demeanor certainly held Burley back. It is well known that Fritzie Zivic***8217;s management team, led by Luke Carney, purchased Burley***8217;s contract after Zivic lost 2 out of 3 to Burley in the late 1930s. In 1940, Zivic ended Armstrong***8217;s string of 19 successful title defenses while Burley continued to wait on the sidelines. To add to Burley***8217;s plight, he possessed an effective style appealing to the hardcore, but not necessarily the casual fan, and that kept Burley from reaching the heights he was capable of scaling as well. ........... Moore is certainly a great contender for this list and Burley is popular.... McG.

McGoorty
10-19-2011, 07:11 AM
I have just discovered that the very great Middleweight champion Jack Nonpareil Dempsey never weighed more than a Welterweight in any fight in his career, I now believe that he is a legitimate possibility for this P4P list......... and How high do you blokes rate Nonpareil in your Welterweight list now ??????.... I bet there are few of you who have ever considered Nonpareil in your ATG WW list.

McGoorty
10-19-2011, 07:14 AM
my list

1.Roy No way he's top 25.... comedy
2.Ali
3.Leonard Yes that's not a bad try for BENNY Leonard
4.Chavez Man you are retarded
5.Monzon not really
6.Duran too high
7.Foreman Lol....lol
8.Hopkins LOL>>>LOL.
9.McCallum wasn't he an English actor ?
10.Barrera ridiculous..lol
That's hilarious man,... you are an extremely great comedian..... do you quote this list in your stand up routine ??????..... LOL.....LOL

SCtrojansbaby
10-19-2011, 08:53 AM
That's hilarious man,... you are an extremely great comedian..... do you quote this list in your stand up routine ??????..... LOL.....LOL

A writer wrote in 1919 in the Pittsburg Gazzette about the super exciting 40 round split newspaper decision of the fight between Philadelphia Fireman Fred Fitzsimmons and Battling Bakersfield Bill Broflovski.

The writer said Broflowski only weight 70 pounds the Fireman had 300 pound weight advantage OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Battling Bakersfield Bill Broflowski is the greatest fighter ever!!!!!!!!! He would KO Floyd Mayweather Jr in 33rd round!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Is that better?