View Full Version : Cassius Clay vs. Doug Jones (1963)- Was Jones robbed of a win?


Dempsey 1919
10-31-2005, 04:33 PM
tonight at 8pm eastern on espn classic, i'm watching the 1963 bout between the number one heavyweight contender doug jones and the number two contender, 21 year old cassius clay (aka muhammad ali). i saw the fight before and it was a good fight. clay would have to win this fight if he wanted a title shot against the big bear charles "sonny" liston. clay's trainer angelo dundee thought it would be a true test for clay to see if he could really hang with the big boys. he usually fought guys his size or bigger, so jones would be a good test for the young up-start, because jones was strong yet he was smaller than clay at about six foot and about 196 1/2lbs, so clay would be fighting someone as fast as him. before the fight clay asked jones how tall he was. jones reply was, "Why do you want to know?" clay boldly responded,"So I can judge how far to step back when I drop you in the fourth!" however, clay didn't know what he was in for. jones matched him blow for blow, he even almost knocked clay down in the first round when clay fell back on the ropes after a huge left hand lead from jones! it was close and many people thought jones won. however, ali was given a unanimous decision. many people threw beer, peanuts, stubs, even glass bottles in the ring! what does cassius do? he casually walks to the center of the ring, picks up a peanut, crackes the shell, and eats the nut. cool, calm, and collected huh? hardly! many people thought he was lucky to come out of there with a win!

i watched it about twice before, and i didn't actually score it, so i don't really know if jones was robbed. i will though tonight. for those who watched that fight, do you think either jones was robbed, clay was rightfully given the victory, or that it was a close call and it could have gone either way?

fistlegend
10-31-2005, 04:44 PM
i heard it was close

habZ
10-31-2005, 07:31 PM
I read somewhere that one judge gave all the close rounds to Ali and the other 2 judges gave all the close rounds to Jones. Due to that judge that gave the close rounds to Ali (8-1-1 i think), he just about won the fight.
I also read that it wasnt Ali's greatest performances but just did enough to pull the win.

------

Just checked and the judges scored:

Scorecards: 5-4-1, 5-4-1, LoScalzo 8-1-1

KidBlackie
11-01-2005, 05:41 AM
Ali was less than impressive against Banks, Cooper, and Jones. That's how he got the Liston bout. Sonny thought it was such a slam dunk that he was training for a 6 rd fight and was out nightclubbing after training. At any rate, Sonny was at an advanced age when he believed his press clippings as he was going downhill and was rusty. Ali was young and improving and happened to catch Sonny at the perfect intersection of time just like Leon caught Ali so many years later.

Dempsey 1919
11-02-2005, 05:53 PM
interesting posts. also i'd like to correct myself on something. doug jones wasn't the number one contender, but actually the number three contender. the number one contender was floyd patterson, who later that year (1963) would fight sonny liston for the championship. whoever won the match between liston and patterson would have to fight the winner between clay and jones. also, jones didn't weigh 196 1/2lbs, he weighed 188. clay weighed 202. sorry if i mislead some of you. here is a picture from the clay-jones bout. keep posting!

http://www.lelands.com/catalog_images_311/thumbnails/13064.jpg

Dempsey 1919
11-04-2005, 02:01 PM
i scored the fight myself and i actually found clay winning that fight 7-2-1. oh well, maybe it wasn't so close after all.

Skydog
11-04-2005, 03:06 PM
It was one of the tougher fights of Ali's career in the 60's, but he definetly won the fight.

Dempsey 1919
11-04-2005, 03:26 PM
It was one of the tougher fights of Ali's career in the 60's, but he definetly won the fight.
it probably was his toughest.

fistlegend
11-04-2005, 04:45 PM
yep, i think it was, no one else gave him much of a challenge, that the challenge doug gave him in the 60's but i think a more older ali maybe 2 years older wouldve demolished him

habZ
11-04-2005, 07:02 PM
part of the **** performance was to decieve liston :D

Warhawk46
11-04-2005, 10:22 PM
No, it was because Ali, aka Cassius, was not as good as the self-hype would have you believe. He was certainly beatable. Little Henry Cooper dropped him and if it wasnt for Angelo Dundee's ripping of Ali's glove, Ali very well could have lost that fight.

Ali was the self-proclaimed "Greatest" and later on her would more than prove this, but it is wrong to say he was so beatable, as many do, during the 60s.

He did many things wrong, and against the right type of fighter he would have been beaten. Luckily for him, the 60s didnt produce the greatest quality of fighters.

And I scored it closer, I honestly feel it could have gone either way. Ali has been the beneficiary of numerous "decisions".

I love Ali, and he is the greatest, but he is given a pass by way too many. He had serious flaws in his game. he was just so athletically superior he could overcome them.

fistlegend
11-05-2005, 05:47 AM
1965-1968 i seriously think no one could beat him, the man was just a natural athlete like one we haven't ever seen before, he could dance 15 rounds straight, he could keep the same speed throughout the whole fight, and he was dancing then landing a jab, his fight plan was to cut em up and win by tko, he had a jab like no other, which stang every time it hit you. ali wasn't even developed enough at that time, nor was he fully matured when he won the title, when he faught cleveland williams he was at his peak, but he would've been at his 'real' peak if the ignorant u.s.a goverment didn't take his title.

Dempsey 1919
11-05-2005, 04:17 PM
part of the **** performance was to decieve liston :D
i don't think it was. ali predicted a fourth round ko, and in the 4th, it was evident that he was trying to make his prediction stick. jones was fast, partly because he weighed under 190, and was pretty strong. the idea that style machups play out differently in some fighters than in others apply here. for example, ali struggled which frazier and norton, but foreman demolished the two with no problem. however ali comfortably ko'd foreman. the same apply here. ali struggled with jones but jones, despite his speed would be no match for liston. however, clay was somewhat still faster than jones and that speed would be enough to outgun liston. plus clay weighed 202 against jones and 210 1/2 against liston, which made him a little stronger while he kept his speed.

Cereal
11-08-2005, 11:22 AM
i'd say he definitely took jones too lightly. after he couldn't nail him in the 4th he was frustrated and that didn't help matters. But i certainly think he won the fight. Although Jones was always in there Clay always appeared the classier boxer. and i think to say he was nearly knocked out is an exaggeration. As for the torn glove, there is video evidence showing there was a tear, it is not Ali's fault that his trainer was clever and advantageous, and people go on like the increased time was huge which is clearly ****e. HE would have won anyway, GOD BLESS ALI, THE GREATEST OF ALL TIMES.

Dempsey 1919
11-08-2005, 01:12 PM
i'd say he definitely took jones too lightly. after he couldn't nail him in the 4th he was frustrated and that didn't help matters. But i certainly think he won the fight. Although Jones was always in there Clay always appeared the classier boxer. and i think to say he was nearly knocked out is an exaggeration. As for the torn glove, there is video evidence showing there was a tear, it is not Ali's fault that his trainer was clever and advantageous, and people go on like the increased time was huge which is clearly ****e. HE would have won anyway, GOD BLESS ALI, THE GREATEST OF ALL TIMES.
well said man, well said.

Hydro
04-03-2006, 11:51 PM
NO.

Clay 7-3

SuzieQ49
04-04-2006, 02:04 AM
the only fighter alis management avoided pre title was harold johnson, who would pose a horrible style matchup for ali. harold johnson literally shutout doug jones when they fought in 1962, he handled jones much easier than ali did. in fact jones gave ali a dreadfully close fight.

harold johnson is very underated, would have liked to see him fight marciano for the heavyweight title in 53-55

of course a prime ali would kill johnson

Dempsey 1919
03-04-2007, 12:47 AM
bump......

Halls of Fame
11-06-2013, 11:24 AM
I scored it 5 rounds to 3 for Doug Jones with 2 rounds even.

Panamaniac
11-06-2013, 01:30 PM
I watched the fight and thought Cassius pulled-off a close but decisive win (5-3-2), with an exclamation point on the final round! Two judges saw it 5-4-1 for Clay, while the ref saw it 8-1-1 for Clay (a shameless bias for the victor)

Judge for yourself (fight starts at 9:30 on the video counter):

Oew_ZH1QG0Q

notrecondite
11-07-2013, 01:00 AM
Two judges saw it 5-4-1 for Clay

Sounds about right, one thing is for certain, Ali did not look good that night.

1965-1968 i seriously think no one could beat him

66' and 67' for sure... unbeatable. Probably would have been unbeatable from 66' to 72' if it wasn't for the draft.

billeau2
11-07-2013, 06:37 AM
Ali was less than impressive against Banks, Cooper, and Jones. That's how he got the Liston bout. Sonny thought it was such a slam dunk that he was training for a 6 rd fight and was out nightclubbing after training. At any rate, Sonny was at an advanced age when he believed his press clippings as he was going downhill and was rusty. Ali was young and improving and happened to catch Sonny at the perfect intersection of time just like Leon caught Ali so many years later.

Amazing how frought with "randomness" history is. Take a generally accepted notion such as Ali's coronation in outclassing Liston...and look at it carefully and wala! Add to this the Karma and history repeats itself when a technically, dentally challenged leon Spinks beats Ali in the same sluce of historical intersections....

Regarding the Jones fight Ali was often maligned. It was a close fight and there was no robbery in giving Ali the nod, but at that time Ali was hated for his outspoken qualities. Jones on the other hand was the Platonic archetype for the New York Fighting man: Harlem raised, outstanding ammy, tough as nails with skills and strength and not a loudmouth -----, to paraphrase the reaction many in the press had to Ali at the time. Hence bigotry and the percieved insolence of Ali was a factor in the crowd's reaction more than the belief that Jones had bested Ali in the fight.

Sugar Adam Ali
11-07-2013, 05:17 PM
I have watched this fight a few times,,, it was close but clay did enough to win, but it wasnt a great performance,,,

I dont think you can call it a robbery,, just a close fight