View Full Version : Does James Toney Have Better WINS Than Roy Jones Jr?


Perfect Plex
09-29-2011, 11:51 PM
While Roy is the greater fighter, does James have the better resume of WINS?

Toney Stand Out Wins
-Michael Nunn: 36-0 Ranked in the top 3 P4P & #1 Middleweight.
-24-0 Tim Littles #6 Ranked Middleweight
-1992 Mike McCallum who was 11-0-1 in his 12 fights.
-1993 Iran Barkley (11 Months earlier had KO'd Hearns for WBA 175lb Title)
-31-0 Vassiliy Jirov #1 ranked Cruiserweight in the world
-2003 38-6 Evander Holyfield

Yes or No?

CarlosG815
09-30-2011, 12:01 AM
I think the answer is Roy Jones Jr.

dan_cov
09-30-2011, 12:03 AM
No & I don't think it's particularly that close.

SCtrojansbaby
09-30-2011, 12:26 AM
While Roy is the greater fighter, does James have the better resume of WINS?

Toney Stand Out Wins
-Michael Nunn: 36-0 Ranked in the top 3 P4P & #1 Middleweight.
-24-0 Tim Littles #6 Ranked Middleweight
-1992 Mike McCallum who was 11-0-1 in his 12 fights.
-1993 Iran Barkley (11 Months earlier had KO'd Hearns for WBA 175lb Title)
-31-0 Vassiliy Jirov #1 ranked Cruiserweight in the world
-2003 38-6 Evander Holyfield

Yes or No?

Toney's win over Williams>>>>>>win over Barkley

1. Toney
2. Hopkins
3. Hill
4. Ruiz
5. Castro
6. Malinga or a number of other guys

Also just look at there respective fights against Johnson and Sosa

nachorjj
09-30-2011, 12:31 AM
no, James have better resume. I think that he go to beat Lebedev

IronDanHamza
09-30-2011, 08:45 AM
I think Toney's wins over McCallum and Nunn are great stand out wins.

But I don't think they are as good as Roy's stand out wins over Hopkins and Toney.

Pastrano
09-30-2011, 11:31 AM
I think Toney's wins over McCallum and Nunn are great stand out wins.

But I don't think they are as good as Roy's stand out wins over Hopkins and Toney.

Toney's wins are worth gold, those over McCallum and Nunn. Hopkins was not yet fully developed as a fighter back then and Toney was as we know, drained. I think Roy's best win was actually against Montell Griffin. Nobody had even beaten Griffin until then and he destroyed him in 1 round. After that I rank the Tarver win, Tarver was at his best at the time.

SCtrojansbaby
09-30-2011, 02:30 PM
Toney's wins are worth gold, those over McCallum and Nunn. Hopkins was not yet fully developed as a fighter back then and Toney was as we know, drained. I think Roy's best win was actually against Montell Griffin. Nobody had even beaten Griffin until then and he destroyed him in 1 round. After that I rank the Tarver win, Tarver was at his best at the time.

lol at Montell Griffin.

wmute
09-30-2011, 02:58 PM
Jones beat Hopkins and Toney. That's the beginning at the end of it.

Toney is my personal favorite out of the 3 above. Toney-McCallum 1 is probably my all time favorite fight, but that does not change the fact that Jones has those two wins on his resume, and Toney has nothing to match them.

bojangles1987
09-30-2011, 03:34 PM
I wouldn't say so.

slicksouthpaw16
09-30-2011, 08:09 PM
The Nunn and Jirov fights for Toney seems to be risks that Jones didn't take IMO. They were both dangerous champions at the time and correct me if I'm wrong, but i think they were both favorites to beat him. You also have to look at how accomplished both were and how highly they were regarded. Jirov had an extensive amateur pedigree and i believe he was making his 7th defense. And Nunn was going through everyone. I honestly haven't seen Jones fight anyone that dangerous in his prime besides James himself, who had to cut a lot of weight to even make the limit. He was drained.

SplitSecond
09-30-2011, 08:15 PM
The Nunn and Jirov fights for Toney seems to be risks that Jones didn't take IMO. They were both dangerous champions at the time and correct me if I'm wrong, but i think they were both favorites to beat him. You also have to look at how accomplished both were and how highly they were regarded. Jirov had an extensive amateur pedigree and i believe he was making his 7th defense. And Nunn was going through everyone. I honestly haven't seen Jones fight anyone that dangerous in his prime besides James himself, who had to cut a lot of weight to even make the limit. He was drained.

what was wrong with reggie johnson?

slicksouthpaw16
09-30-2011, 08:19 PM
what was wrong with reggie johnson?

He was good but I'm not talking about just a good/unbeaten record, its how much they accomplished in the pros and how highly they were regarded. What makes Johnson as good as Nunn and Jirov? And keep in mind that Toney also beat him.

SplitSecond
09-30-2011, 08:25 PM
He was good but I'm not talking about just a good/unbeaten record, its how much they accomplished in the pros and how highly they were regarded. What makes Johnson as good as Nunn and Jirov? And keep in mind that Toney also beat him.

toney didn't beat johnson, com on now, robbery, roy beat johnson

slicksouthpaw16
09-30-2011, 08:34 PM
toney didn't beat johnson, com on now, robbery, roy beat johnson

I don't really call close fights robberies. Toney did enough to win IMO (though slightly) and was more effective in the later rounds which was critical since Johnson was going after HIS title. I would definitely consider that win legit.

joseph5620
09-30-2011, 08:51 PM
The Nunn and Jirov fights for Toney seems to be risks that Jones didn't take IMO. They were both dangerous champions at the time and correct me if I'm wrong, but i think they were both favorites to beat him. You also have to look at how accomplished both were and how highly they were regarded. Jirov had an extensive amateur pedigree and i believe he was making his 7th defense. And Nunn was going through everyone. I honestly haven't seen Jones fight anyone that dangerous in his prime besides James himself, who had to cut a lot of weight to even make the limit. He was drained.




I see that excuse all the time. But the fact remains that Toney was never "drained" until he lost to Jones. It's a ready made excuse to discredit the Jones win. He certainly didn't show any effects from that in his previous fights and could have moved up in weight if he chose to. Jones beat Toney because he was the better fighter. Period.

joseph5620
09-30-2011, 08:55 PM
He was good but I'm not talking about just a good/unbeaten record, its how much they accomplished in the pros and how highly they were regarded. What makes Johnson as good as Nunn and Jirov? And keep in mind that Toney also beat him.




The difference is Jones dominated Johnson every minute of every round. Johnson dropped Toney and lost a very close decision to Toney. If you're going to compare those fights Jones win was far more impressive.

slicksouthpaw16
09-30-2011, 08:59 PM
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I see that excuse all the time. But the fact remains that Toney was never "drained" until he lost to Jones. It's a ready made excuse to discredit the Jones win. He certainly didn't show any effects from that in his previous fights and could have moved up in weight if he chose to. Jones beat Toney because he was the better fighter. Period.
Wait so according to you, James was in his best shape? I couldn't disagree more. Did you see Toney's love handles? That fight was at 168 and he came in looking like a borderline cruiser. And since when have you known Toney to not let his hands go and give no effort whatsoever? Even against a faster Nunn, he was starting to make the fight close and was continuously stalking Nunn and doing work. I would have loved to seen the Toney that in the shape he was against Barkley, show up against Jones.

I'm actually one of those anti excuse people, but Toney was clearly out of shape and its as clear as night and day.

slicksouthpaw16
09-30-2011, 09:03 PM
The difference is Jones dominated Johnson every minute of every round. Johnson dropped Toney and lost a very close decision to Toney. If you're going to compare those fights Jones win was far more impressive.

The thread is on "who has the better wins" not "who beat Reggie Johnson more clearly". Never did i once compare their wins over Johnson. :fing02:

joseph5620
09-30-2011, 09:10 PM
Wait so according to you, James was in his best shape? I couldn't disagree more. Did you see Toney's love handles? That fight was at 168 and he came in looking like a borderline cruiser. And since when have you known Toney to not let his hands go and give no effort whatsoever? Even against a faster Nunn, he was starting to make the fight close and was continuously stalking Nunn and doing work. I would have loved to seen the Toney that in the shape he was against Barkley, show up against Jones.

I'm actually one of those anti excuse people, but Toney was clearly out of shape and its as clear as night and day.

Toney was reluctant to open up because he was overwhelmed by Jones hand speed. You can't compare Nunn's speed with Jones. And no, I don't believe for one minute that Toney was "out of shape ."

SplitSecond
09-30-2011, 09:11 PM
click play for anyone who hasn't seen it
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wmute
09-30-2011, 09:20 PM
Nunn was a cokehead by the time he fought Toney.
McCallum was 35 by the time he fought Toney.

So much for green Hopkins and drained Toney.

slicksouthpaw16
09-30-2011, 09:32 PM
Toney was reluctant to open up because he was overwhelmed by Jones hand speed. You can't compare Nunn's speed with Jones. And no, I don't believe for one minute that Toney was "out of shape ."

I'n that case I'll end this discussion here. Just know that Toney was known for ballooning up in between fights/coming in out of shape (Ie Thadzi). Its funny how a blown up middleweight who stood in front and got the better of an inside fight with one of the best cruiser weights ( and body punchers) in recent memory (Jirov) and someone who stood in front of heavyweights, is scared to throw punches because of Jones speed. Do you also believe that Toney didn't have an IV administered after the Jones weigh in because of all of the laxatives/diuretics help him lose weight?

slicksouthpaw16
09-30-2011, 09:35 PM
An unbeaten Coke head that's a dominant middleweight champion and one of the most skillful fighters in boxing and is coming off of several straight exceptional wins, is pretty impressive.

SplitSecond
09-30-2011, 09:36 PM
I'n that case I'll end this discussion here. Just know that Toney was known for ballooning up in between fights/coming in out of shape (Ie Thadzi). Its funny how a blown up middleweight who stood in front and got the better of an inside fight with one of the best cruiser weights ( and body punchers) in recent memory (Jirov) and someone who stood in front of heavyweights, is scared to throw punches because of Jones speed. Do you also believe that Toney didn't have an IV administered after the Jones weigh in because of all of the laxatives/diuretics help him lose weight?

i'd factor his reluctancy to jones counter punching him, which nunn was not doin much of, also nunn was there to be hit form the very beggining getting caught

if toney was that badly affected by the weight he wouldn't of had a close(what was it, the 8th?) round where he outworked jones as roy rested, neither would he have tried flurrying in the 12 only to have roy fly outta range or clinch him

toney's workrate dropped the same as pacquiao's in the face of a counterpuncher

joseph5620
09-30-2011, 09:40 PM
The thread is on "who has the better wins" not "who beat Reggie Johnson more clearly". Never did i once compare their wins over Johnson. :fing02:

You said Toney beat Johnson too. That's called a comparison. You can't determine who has a better resume without making a comparisonan.

wmute
09-30-2011, 09:44 PM
An unbeaten Coke head that's a dominant middleweight champion and one of the most skillful fighters in boxing and is coming off of several straight exceptional wins, is pretty impressive.

And just like Toney's eating habits did not catch up with him until he faced a fighter of Jones' caliber, Nunn's snorting habits did not catch up with him until he faced a fighter of Toney's caliber... shocking, eh?

slicksouthpaw16
09-30-2011, 09:45 PM
i'd factor his reluctancy to jones counter punching him, which nunn was not doin much of, also nunn was there to be hit form the very beggining getting caught

if toney was that badly affected by the weight he wouldn't of had a close(what was it, the 8th?) round where he outworked jones as roy rested, neither would he have tried flurrying in the 12 only to have roy fly outta range or clinch him

toney's workrate dropped the same as pacquiao's in the face of a counterpuncher

So one burst of effort automatically makes him not drained? Its perfectly normally for a fighters work rate to drop against a counter puncher. Its not normal for a fighter to look lackadaisical or look like he didn't come in with any type of game plan.

slicksouthpaw16
09-30-2011, 09:48 PM
You said Toney beat Johnson too. That's called a comparison. You can't determine who has a better resume without making a comparisonan.

You must have misunderstood. I said that, meaning that he also beat Johnson (meaning that's its a win in the books for him as well as Jones). Nothing more. You took that and started comparing how they actually performed which i never did.

SplitSecond
09-30-2011, 09:49 PM
So one burst of effort automatically makes him not drained? Its perfectly normally for a fighters work rate to drop against a counter puncher. Its not normal for a fighter to look lackadaisical or look like he didn't come in with any type of game plan.

didn't toney have weight issues in the fight 4 months prior to jones? he(like always), blew up, weight drained, and blew up after the weigh in

was he weight drained vs williams do you think?
i guess he would've been if he lost

SplitSecond
09-30-2011, 09:53 PM
was he also weight drained vs griffin?

"Toney, stepping up in weight after his one-sided loss to Roy Jones on Nov. 18, is still having problems with his biggest enemy - the scale. He spent an hour in the sauna before the weigh-in on Friday, and while he made the 175- pound limit, he entered the ring at 187 pounds last night. It showed."

http://articles.philly.com/1995-02-19/sports/25705430_1_montell-griffin-james-toney-majority-decision

joseph5620
09-30-2011, 09:54 PM
I'n that case I'll end this discussion here. Just know that Toney was known for ballooning up in between fights/coming in out of shape (Ie Thadzi). Its funny how a blown up middleweight who stood in front and got the better of an inside fight with one of the best cruiser weights ( and body punchers) in recent memory (Jirov) and someone who stood in front of heavyweights, is scared to throw punches because of Jones speed. Do you also believe that Toney didn't have an IV administered after the Jones weigh in because of all of the laxatives/diuretics help him lose weight?

I don't care if Toney had a history. The fact remains that he didn't lose until he fought Jones. That's a convenient time to use that excuse. I don't buy the "I didn't train hard enough " excuse for any fighter whether it's valid or not.Especially when it discredits the fighters that put in the work.

slicksouthpaw16
09-30-2011, 09:57 PM
And just like Toney's eating habits did not catch up with him until he faced a fighter of Jones' caliber, Nunn's snorting habits did not catch up with him until he faced a fighter of Toney's caliber... shocking, eh?

Nunn had a great resume even before Toney with several top level fighters and James was relatively inexperienced at the time, so there was no "up to Toney's caliber". Nunn was a massive step up in class.

slicksouthpaw16
09-30-2011, 10:03 PM
Its seems that too many people are having a hard time comprehending the fact that this was no random thing, and that he has ALWAYS struggled with his weight. This is a man who literally ate himself up to heavyweight. He was undisciplined, plain and simple. I heard that it got to a point where rarely even did road work, and simply shed off of the weight on sparring alone because of the fact that he didn't like to train. Take it how you want it though. :fing02:
If you feel better by saying Toney was in the tip top shape and was "scared" to let his hands go, then I say roll with. I'll never agree so its best to just end this discussion which is now pointless.

wmute
09-30-2011, 10:05 PM
Nunn had a great resume even before Toney with several top level fighters and James was relatively inexperienced at the time, so there was no "up to Toney's caliber". Nunn was a massive step up in class.

Are you saying Toney was not a great fighter? First off, I disagree. Secondly, I don't see what it would imply.

wmute
09-30-2011, 10:08 PM
Its seems that too many people are having a hard time comprehending the fact that this was no random thing, and that he has ALWAYS struggled with his weight. This is a man who literally ate himself up to heavyweight. He was undisciplined, plain and simple. I heard that it got to a point where rarely even did road work, and simply shed off of the weight on sparring alone because of the fact that he didn't like to train. Take it how you want it though. :fing02:
If you feel better by saying Toney was in the tip top shape and was "scared" to let his hands go, then I say roll with. I'll never agree so its best to just end this discussion which is now pointless.

Just the same as you seem to have hard time comprehending Nunn had been on coke at least since he sparked Kalambay a good 2 years before he met Toney.

slicksouthpaw16
09-30-2011, 10:11 PM
Are you saying Toney was not a great fighter? First off, I disagree. Secondly, I don't see what it would imply.

Obviously you're not the only one having a hard time understanding. He obviously wasn't great at the time he fought Nunn. He was established as a contender only. What I'm "implying" is that Nunn had fought fighters more accomplished and experienced fighters (and actual champions) than James before their fight. Sosa was the best fighter that he fought before Nunn and that's saying a lot. So basically, there was no "step up to Toney's caliber" when Nunn fought him. That was a fight that Nunn was expected to win handily.

wmute
09-30-2011, 10:13 PM
Obviously you're not the only one having a hard time understanding. He obviously wasn't great at the time he fought Nunn. He was established as a contender only. What I'm "implying" is that Nunn had fought fighters more accomplished and experienced fighters (and actual champions) than James before their fight. Sosa was the best fighter that he fought before Nunn and that's saying a lot. So basically, there was no "step up to Toney's caliber" when Nunn fought him. That was a fight that Nunn was expected to win handily.

I see... so you are suggesting that Nunn took him lightly, and hence we should put an(other) asterisk next to that W for Toney. Ok...

slicksouthpaw16
09-30-2011, 10:18 PM
Just the same as you seem to have hard time comprehending Nunn had been on coke at least since he sparked Kalambay a good 2 years before he met Toney.
You think he would out brawl Barkley while on coke (yes, he fought HIS fight for the majority of the fight and won)? Starling was having a decent run at the time Nunn beat him as well and it was only a year prior. So at which time period was he on coke? According to you, he was also out boxing Toney for 11 rounds while on coke. That must have been some good ****.

BoxingGenius27
09-30-2011, 10:21 PM
No I don't think so.

Toney's win over Nunn probably his best win and what officially put him on the map. Nunn was actually whooping Toney all through the fight until the last few rounds or round.

Good job on Toney, but I wouldn't go as far to say he has better wins than Jones.

wmute
09-30-2011, 10:23 PM
You think he would out brawl Barkley while on coke (yes, he fought HIS fight for the majority of the fight and won)? Starling was having a decent run at the time Nunn beat him as well and it was only a year prior. So at which time period was he on coke? According to you, he was also out boxing Toney for 11 rounds while on coke.

You think Toney would have stopped Nunn, have those incredible fights with McCallum, partially wipe out 60, then move up to 68 and beat Barkley, Littles etc while slacking off and not training as you said he had a history of?

slicksouthpaw16
09-30-2011, 10:23 PM
I see... so you are suggesting that Nunn took him lightly, and hence we should put an(other) asterisk next to that W for Toney. Ok...

Uh no, that was never typed. I said that to simply suggest that THERE WAS NO STEP UP IN COMP FOR NUNN BECAUSE HE HAD FOUGHT ACTUAL CHAMPIONS AND HAD REIGNED FOR YEARS GOING INTO THE TONEY FIGHT. TONEY WAS RELATIVELY INEXPERIENCED, CERTAINLY AT TOP LEVEL SO THERE WASN'T THIS "STEP UP ON TONEYS CALIBER" AS YOU SUGGEST. You should understand now. :fing02:

slicksouthpaw16
09-30-2011, 10:27 PM
You think Toney would have stopped Nunn, have those incredible fights with McCallum, partially wipe out 60, then move up to 68 and beat Barkley, Littles etc while slacking off and not training as you said he had a history of?

He was an on and off type of fighter. Sometimes he would come in good shape and some times he'd slack off. Hell the reason why he even moved to 168 lbs was because he ate himself up there.

wmute
09-30-2011, 10:29 PM
Uh no, that was never typed. I said that to simply suggest that THERE WAS NO STEP UP IN COMP FOR NUNN BECAUSE HE HAD FOUGHT ACTUAL CHAMPIONS AND HAD REIGNED FOR YEARS GOING INTO THE TONEY FIGHT. TONEY WAS RELATIVELY INEXPERIENCED, CERTAINLY AT TOP LEVEL SO THERE WASN'T THIS "STEP UP ON TONEYS CALIBER" AS YOU SUGGEST. You should understand now. :fing02:

Toney is the greatest fighter on Nunn's resume, that is by definition a step up.

Nunn managed to beat fighters not named James Toney even if he had a habit

Toney managed to beat fighters not name Roy Jones even with his poor habits.

And then... they just met someone who was too good for that.

wmute
09-30-2011, 10:31 PM
He was an on and off type of fighter. Sometimes he would come in good shape and some times he'd slack off. Hell the reason why he even moved to 168 lbs was because he ate himself up there.

And out of all fights, he chose to slack off for the Jones fight, rather than say Littles... how convenient, no?

slicksouthpaw16
09-30-2011, 10:35 PM
Toney is the greatest fighter on Nunn's resume, that is by definition a step up.

Nunn managed to beat fighters not named James Toney even if he had a habit

Toney managed to beat fighters not name Roy Jones even with his poor habits.

And then... they just met someone who was too good for that.

No, he turned out to be the greatest fighter on his resume, he certainly wasn't at the time they fought. That's like saying Jones was the greatest fighter that Toney fought because of how well he turned out but in reality it was Nunn. It was Nunn back then and Jones overall.

wmute
09-30-2011, 10:37 PM
No, he turned out to be the greatest fighter on his resume, he certainly wasn't at the time they fought. That's like saying Jones was the greatest fighter that Toney fought because of how well he turned out but in reality it was Nunn. It was Nunn back then and Jones overall.

and that goes to prove my point... thank you.

slicksouthpaw16
09-30-2011, 10:48 PM
And out of all fights, he chose to slack off for the Jones fight, rather than say Littles... how convenient, no?
Again his habits were random. He fought 6 times that year and probably just wanted to kick back and didn't cut back the junk food when he should have. Granted it was a big fight, but that's just the way he was. Just like Chris Arreola came in fat and out of shape against in his two biggest name opponents (Klitschko and Adamek). There are just some boxers that has addictions outside the ring, weather it be food, drugs whatever.

slicksouthpaw16
09-30-2011, 10:53 PM
and that goes to prove my point... thank you.

You have once again lost me. I said Nunn was the greatest fighter THAT TONEY FOUGHT UP TO THE JONES FIGHT BECAUSE JONES WAS NOT AS ESTABLISHED AS NUNN AT THE TIME. Overall yes, Jones did go on to become clearly greater than Nunn but that's irrelevant since we are basing it on when these fights actually occurred. So what point i proved is beyond me.

So let me get this straight, you feel that Jones was a greater fighter than Nunn at the time he beat Toney and Toney was a greater fighter than Barkley, Starling and Kalambay even though the best win on his record was Sosa (while not bad, is not where near great) at the time he fought Nunn. :thinking:

wmute
10-01-2011, 05:16 AM
You have once again lost me. I said Nunn was the greatest fighter THAT TONEY FOUGHT UP TO THE JONES FIGHT BECAUSE JONES WAS NOT AS ESTABLISHED AS NUNN AT THE TIME. Overall yes, Jones did go on to become clearly greater than Nunn but that's irrelevant since we are basing it on when these fights actually occurred. So what point i proved is beyond me.

So let me get this straight, you feel that Jones was a greater fighter than Nunn at the time he beat Toney and Toney was a greater fighter than Barkley, Starling and Kalambay even though the best win on his record was Sosa (while not bad, is not where near great) at the time he fought Nunn. :thinking:

No, I feel that it does not matter. If I put you in the ring with a masked fighter, and you beat the guy, then i took the mask off, and you beat sugar ray robinson, that's your best win.

My point, which you helped proving with your posts is that Nunn was Toney's best win, just like Jones's best win was Toney.

If you put an asterisk because Toney was drained, you better put an asterisk because Nunn was a cokehead.

joseph5620
10-01-2011, 03:31 PM
You have once again lost me. I said Nunn was the greatest fighter THAT TONEY FOUGHT UP TO THE JONES FIGHT BECAUSE JONES WAS NOT AS ESTABLISHED AS NUNN AT THE TIME. Overall yes, Jones did go on to become clearly greater than Nunn but that's irrelevant since we are basing it on when these fights actually occurred. So what point i proved is beyond me.

So let me get this straight, you feel that Jones was a greater fighter than Nunn at the time he beat Toney and Toney was a greater fighter than Barkley, Starling and Kalambay even though the best win on his record was Sosa (while not bad, is not where near great) at the time he fought Nunn. :thinking:



It doesn't matter what Toney's record was at the time. We all now know he's a better fighter than Barkley,Starling,and Kalambay. The perception of him before the fight is irrelevant and doesn't change that fact.


And yes, the Jones that fought Toney was better than Nunn.