View Full Version : Dempsey vs. Marciano


Dempsey 1919
10-27-2005, 06:53 PM
they both were beasts back in da day. who do you think was better?

M26
10-27-2005, 07:39 PM
Well, Jack Dempsey was the better boxer and had more speed than did Marciano.

How ever, Marciano had a better chin and more power, and I believe Marciano would come back from a solid beating to take out Dempsey later on.

Rocky Marciano by ko 5-8.

cple
10-27-2005, 09:02 PM
My previous response to a similiar thread:

I have always maintained that Dempsey was a bad matchup for Marciano. Though Rocky does have the edge in one-punch power and possesses a slightly better chin, Dempsey has the advantage in handspeed and has a much more exspansive arsenal of punches. I think Dempsey would land two punches to every one Marciano lands. Add in the fact that Rocky was somewhat of a slow starter and Dempsey was one of the quickest and you have a tough day in the office for Rocky. I think Dempsey's initial onslaught would take a lot out of Marciano, leaving him too hurt to stage a comeback. Rocky definately has his moments, but Dempsey stops him on cuts late in the fight.

Zhen
10-27-2005, 09:33 PM
Rocky's biggest wins were against top boxers who were past their prime. Sure he beat HOFers such as Louis and Walcott, but they were no longer at their best by the time they had fought Marciano.

Dempsey 1919
11-08-2005, 02:27 PM
i believe dempsey would win, because in my opinion, their punching power were p4p the same. but in terms of dimensions, marciano was five-ten, 185, and had a 67inch reach. dempsey, however was six-foot, 195, and hed a 77inch reach. plus dempsey's hands were faster.

i would say dempsey wins in a 12 round ko.

LethalRight79
12-11-2005, 04:16 AM
This fight would be very interesting, they both have short, heavy precision punches. I haven't seen to much of Dempsey, but from what I have seen, Marciano will stop him in the late rounds. I think Dempsey will knock down Marciano in the early rounds, but Marciano will tire him out for the late rounds and possibly stop him, but Marciano got cut a lot, I think it's either Marciano by Stoppage or Decision, or Dempsey knocks him out mid rounds.

This is a very hard matchup to predict.

TuPrincipe
12-11-2005, 04:55 AM
My previous response to a similiar thread:

I have always maintained that Dempsey was a bad matchup for Marciano. Though Rocky does have the edge in one-punch power and possesses a slightly better chin, Dempsey has the advantage in handspeed and has a much more exspansive arsenal of punches. I think Dempsey would land two punches to every one Marciano lands. Add in the fact that Rocky was somewhat of a slow starter and Dempsey was one of the quickest and you have a tough day in the office for Rocky. I think Dempsey's initial onslaught would take a lot out of Marciano, leaving him too hurt to stage a comeback. Rocky definately has his moments, but Dempsey stops him on cuts late in the fight.

Fair point.

Dempsey reminded me of Mike Tyson in terms of pure adrenaline and agression. Can't take anything away from his fighting though. A purveyour of pain, unstoppable in his prime. How the hell could you knock Dempsey? His rise to the top was meteoric. The guy had every tool a heavyweight champion could ask for: heart, handspeed, chin, power, quick reflexes, stamina and underated boxing skills. The old guys like Ray Arcel and Lou Duval all claim he was the greatest heavyweight of all time. Maybe Ali or Louis could beat him, but he was nothing short of greatness.
Made the mold that Liston & Tyson would follow.

He would beat most heavyweights of the past and all heavyweights of the 90's. It's just too bad he partied his career away.

M26
12-11-2005, 05:38 AM
Fair point.

Dempsey reminded me of Mike Tyson in terms of pure adrenaline and agression. Can't take anything away from his fighting though. A purveyour of pain, unstoppable in his prime. How the hell could you knock Dempsey? His rise to the top was meteoric. The guy had every tool a heavyweight champion could ask for: heart, handspeed, chin, power, quick reflexes, stamina and underated boxing skills. The old guys like Ray Arcel and Lou Duval all claim he was the greatest heavyweight of all time. Maybe Ali or Louis could beat him, but he was nothing short of greatness.
Made the mold that Liston & Tyson would follow.

He would beat most heavyweights of the past and all heavyweights of the 90's. It's just too bad he partied his career away.

Jack Dempsey was great, there is no doubt about it. However, his gameness would be his downfall in my opinion. Dempsey would be more than willing to trade with Marciano, and then it comes down to who hits harder and who can take the best punch.

Rocky Marciano had the harder punch and he most likely had a stronger chin as well. Dempsey could hurt him, sure, but not stop him.

I still say Marciano by knockout after a brutal and entertaining slugfest.

Rocky Marciano by ko6.

Kid Achilles
12-11-2005, 01:47 PM
Does Marciano really hit harder? It's debatable. Dempsey KO'ed Fred Fulton, a huge 6'5" guy and a respected contender (I believe he was ranked #1 at the time) in 18 seconds. The job he did on Willard is still shocking, it seems unnatural to see a 180 lb fighter send a 250 lb man staggering around the ring like a ragdoll.

In terms of punching power, Dempsey is top ten all time material. I think Marciano may be as well, but you are selling Dempsey's punch short.

Bodypunching and inside fighting go to Dempsey. He had a method to his bodypunching, he threw short shovel hooks and uppercuts in close quarters. He threw them in combinations. You can see this in the Gibbons fight. Marciano on the other hand, a bit like Tyson, needed some space for his punches. He couldn't knock a guy out with 6" punches like Dempsey did.

The only qualities I give to Marciano for certain are stamina and chin. Footwork, punching technique, natural reflexes, handspeed all go to Dempsey.

Marciano always has a chance with "Suzie Q", but I think Dempsey stops him in the middle rounds, or perhaps even with an early assault.

M26
12-12-2005, 01:58 PM
Does Marciano really hit harder? It's debatable. Dempsey KO'ed Fred Fulton, a huge 6'5" guy and a respected contender (I believe he was ranked #1 at the time) in 18 seconds. The job he did on Willard is still shocking, it seems unnatural to see a 180 lb fighter send a 250 lb man staggering around the ring like a ragdoll.

In terms of punching power, Dempsey is top ten all time material. I think Marciano may be as well, but you are selling Dempsey's punch short.

Bodypunching and inside fighting go to Dempsey. He had a method to his bodypunching, he threw short shovel hooks and uppercuts in close quarters. He threw them in combinations. You can see this in the Gibbons fight. Marciano on the other hand, a bit like Tyson, needed some space for his punches. He couldn't knock a guy out with 6" punches like Dempsey did.

The only qualities I give to Marciano for certain are stamina and chin. Footwork, punching technique, natural reflexes, handspeed all go to Dempsey.

Marciano always has a chance with "Suzie Q", but I think Dempsey stops him in the middle rounds, or perhaps even with an early assault.

I see your argument. Jack Dempsey was the better boxer and was also faster.

How ever, I can't help but to think that if you run after Rocky Marciano, you'r gonna take some shots in return. And Dempsey did not have the chin to stand up to those thundering shots in my opinion. Further, I still say Marciano had the harder punch. Dempsey had alot of power, sure, but he also hurt his foes because of his technique and speed (sort of like a prime Tyson). Marciano just needed one good, clean punch and it would be all over.

When asked about Marcianos punching power, Dempsey was quoted saying that Marciano definitely had the harder punch. To prove this he pointed to the fact that Marciano had power to knock you out with one single punch, while Dempsey more often than not needed several knock downs to end a fight.

Of course, Dempsey could very well just be saying this to be polite... But you never know.

Jack Dempsey would take control of this fight and give Marciano a good whuppin' early on. He would not be able to stop Marciano though, and sooner or later "The Rock" connects with a few bombs and Dempsey would go down for keeps.

Rocky Marciano by ko6.

Dempsey 1919
03-04-2007, 01:54 AM
bump......

dwidsid3d
03-04-2007, 02:31 AM
Inside punching go to DEMPSEY.No way.DEMPSEY had no right hand and a much weaker chin than MARCIANO. As far as everyone saying he fought old men EZZARD CHARLES was only 2 YEARS older.MARCIANO would ko DEMPSEY in 9

Dempsey 1919
03-04-2007, 02:33 AM
Inside punching go to DEMPSEY.No way.DEMPSEY had no right hand and a much weaker chin than MARCIANO. As far as everyone saying he fought old men EZZARD CHARLES was only 2 YEARS older.MARCIANO would ko DEMPSEY in 9

You have no intelligence.

Mick Hucknall
03-04-2007, 03:16 AM
Both are relentless boxers but Marciano had the better Stamina. I could see Marciano stopping Dempsey late whilst tight on the cards

hemichromis
03-04-2007, 07:41 AM
Both are relentless boxers but Marciano had the better Stamina. I could see Marciano stopping Dempsey late whilst tight on the cards

but dempsey was quicker

IMO either dempsey early or marciano late

dwidsid3d
03-04-2007, 09:46 AM
You have no intelligence.

wHY DO i HAVE NO INTELLIGENCE .bOTH KO SHAKY WALKIN ALI

ceboxer15
03-04-2007, 09:31 PM
great match-up. this would be a hell of a fight. I think Dempsey would beat Marciano.

hemichromis
03-06-2007, 01:40 PM
Inside punching go to DEMPSEY.No way.DEMPSEY had no right hand and a much weaker chin than MARCIANO. As far as everyone saying he fought old men EZZARD CHARLES was only 2 YEARS older.MARCIANO would ko DEMPSEY in 9

dempsey was a much better in-fuighter than marciano and had a very good right hand

Yaman
03-06-2007, 04:25 PM
This is one of the best matchups pound for pound. I think Dempsey would get the better of it early on, but i think he'd crumble from Marciano's attack eventually. Styles make fights, and they're both swarmers, i don't think Dempsey's height would make a diffirence. Marciano had more stamina, was more durable and had heart. I just think he would have a bit more than Dempsey.

Dempsey 1919
03-06-2007, 06:24 PM
This is one of the best matchups pound for pound. I think Dempsey would get the better of it early on, but i think he'd crumble from Marciano's attack eventually. Styles make fights, and they're both swarmers, i don't think Dempsey's height would make a diffirence. Marciano had more stamina, was more durable and had heart. I just think he would have a bit more than Dempsey.

Marciano definetely had more stamina, but how do you know he could take it more? Dempsey had amazing recuperative powers. Also heart would be equal. For some fighters, after a certain point heart is not measurable, and both these guys had all the heart you could want. Dempsey was a fast starter, probably the fastest starter in the history of boxing. Marciano was a traditionally slow starter and very vulnerable in the early rounds. Dempsey was able to hammer Jess Willard around the ring, whose chin was much better than Marciano's. If Dempsey hit Marciano with those cat-quick blows of dynamite, Marciano couldn't stay on his feet. I'd say Dempsey takes him out early in no more than four rounds. If Marciano gets past the six round, then he wins, but I doubt the fight would last under the fury of Dempsey's attack.

Kid Achilles
03-06-2007, 07:28 PM
I love the Rock, he's one of my favorites, but I've always thought Dempsey was too quick, slick, and mean for him. Unlike his modern counterpart, Tyson, Dempsey was a quick handed, nimble footed KO machine who actually had balls of steel. The mental matched the physical.

Marciano can hit Dempsey with his best punches, maybe knock his teeth out, but the guy is gonna keep coming like he did against Firpo. Marciano often got wild when he had an opponent hurt and I can see Dempsey surving one of his bullrushed by the skin of his teeth and slipping in a big counterpunch while Marciano is going to town that spells the begining of the end for the Rock.

Dempsey is IMO the most underrated heavyweight on this forum. I think he's no lower than top five based on ability. You can put him lower for accomplishments but no one had that combination of speed, power, chin, heart, and all around skill (schooled in in and out fighting). Tyson comes close but lacks the heart and infighting skills.

Dempsey 1919
03-06-2007, 07:54 PM
I love the Rock, he's one of my favorites, but I've always thought Dempsey was too quick, slick, and mean for him. Unlike his modern counterpart, Tyson, Dempsey was a quick handed, nimble footed KO machine who actually had balls of steel. The mental matched the physical.

Marciano can hit Dempsey with his best punches, maybe knock his teeth out, but the guy is gonna keep coming like he did against Firpo. Marciano often got wild when he had an opponent hurt and I can see Dempsey surving one of his bullrushed by the skin of his teeth and slipping in a big counterpunch while Marciano is going to town that spells the begining of the end for the Rock.

Dempsey is IMO the most underrated heavyweight on this forum. I think he's no lower than top five based on ability. You can put him lower for accomplishments but no one had that combination of speed, power, chin, heart, and all around skill (schooled in in and out fighting). Tyson comes close but lacks the heart and infighting skills.

What about Louis?

Kid Achilles
03-06-2007, 10:36 PM
Louis lacked a chin. I mean his chin wasn't glass, but it was inferior to Dempsey's or Tyson's IMO. He is tied with Ali for third for me though. What made Louis great was his perfect punch technique and his accuracy, coupled with his physical gifts. He didn't telegraph his shots, and when he landed he landed right on the button most times. He also had very quick hands and a huge punch, but the chin was his only weakness (and even then it was solid, like Ali's power).

Ali lacked power. By lacked I mean it was only good, not great. Ali with a huge punch would obviously be the greatest P4P fighter of all time, no questions asked, you'd have to be one bold guy to state otherwise.

Dempsey had quickness, a chin, power, and heart. Even his stamina was not bad, but he threw so many hard punches with everything behind them that he expended his energy fairly quickly. If I had to give prime Dempsey a weakness, I guess it's stamina. If he didn't finish you off within the first half of a fight, chances are he'd only beat you via UD. He'd never end up too exhausted to fight, but his punches lost some of their effect later in a fight (unlike Frazier or Marciano). Solid stamina but exceptional everything else.

phallus
03-06-2007, 10:48 PM
marciano hit a lot harder than dempsey. dempsey had to knock his opponents down many, times ( willard 7 times for example) to stop them from getting back up. marciano only had to hit u once, and that's with much more padded gloves than they had in dempsey's time. rocco had much better stamina than dempsey. dempsey has the better skills and quicker hands, however ezzard charles had both better skills and quicker hands and it didn't stop him getting beat by marciano, the second time by knockout.
if this fight had ever happened, both men were going to the hospital after with broken bones. dempsey would get the better of the rock early, probably knock him down two, maybe three times, but i see the rock getting up and as dempsey starts to gas, laying a terrible beating on poor jack. the rock absorbed a lot of punishment in the first charles fight and it didn't stop him coming. marciano stops dempsey late, in the fight of the century

Mick Hucknall
03-07-2007, 02:48 AM
It would probably be fight of the century. Both were relentless and always on the offence would make for great viewing

realheavyhands
03-07-2007, 03:47 AM
dempsey was blessed with the speed to make a puncher explosive

eazy_mas
03-07-2007, 08:10 AM
it very hard to say because Demspy time the gloves where different the Rocky's time.

so you cant really compare there power because if Rocky had the small gloves he probably could have KOed Dempsy due his high rate workout but you really cant tell i give rocky the edge in this one.

Rocky punch are stronger in whole the fight while any other fighter is decrease exponantional in the later rounds

Yaman
03-07-2007, 11:50 AM
Marciano definetely had more stamina, but how do you know he could take it more? Dempsey had amazing recuperative powers. Also heart would be equal. For some fighters, after a certain point heart is not measurable, and both these guys had all the heart you could want. Dempsey was a fast starter, probably the fastest starter in the history of boxing. Marciano was a traditionally slow starter and very vulnerable in the early rounds. Dempsey was able to hammer Jess Willard around the ring, whose chin was much better than Marciano's. If Dempsey hit Marciano with those cat-quick blows of dynamite, Marciano couldn't stay on his feet. I'd say Dempsey takes him out early in no more than four rounds. If Marciano gets past the six round, then he wins, but I doubt the fight would last under the fury of Dempsey's attack.

I dont ''know'' if he could take more, i try to measure and look at it closely. Heart can't be equal and isn't measured either. There will always be one man that has more heart than the other(That doesn't mean the other doesn have heart). I think Marciano could handle diversity more than Dempsey. When he had his nose ripped open and gave everything he had to actually win, the coming back after going down parts etc. Dempsey had his moments in his career too, but Rocky's actions were simply more impressive.
I agree Marciano was a slow starter, but that is just a strategy. Im sure he would adapt to Dempsey style right away, after all, Rocky had an iron punch in the whole 15 rounds. He had quite a few first round knockouts and some of them were against very good opponents.
And i don't agree Willard had a better chin than Marciano. That's just an opinion, but i do think Rocky was harder to hit than Willard, after all, Willard was way past his prime in that fight, and got jumped upon by Dempsey right after he got dropped everytime.
I think that Dempsey would have his hands full, a bit too full because of Marciano's relentless attack after his best rounds. He'd probably knock Marciano to the canvas a few times in the early goings of the fight, but man, that would take A LOT out of a guy..trying to knock Rocky down over and over again. Because Marciano is gonna get up, and fight back. I think he would survive Jack Dempsey and come back late to ko him. I really respect both fighters, it would be a great fight. We can only dream.

Kid Achilles
03-07-2007, 04:45 PM
I think Dempsey's heart was just as good as Marciano's. Marciano was never homeless fighting just to get his next meal. Marciano fought to gain recognition and to escape a dull working class lifestyle, but the guy was never in danger of starving to death, unlike Dempsey, and had his family helping him out into his 20's. Dempsey was homeless at the age of 15-16 or so and was as hungry and courageous as any fighter who ever lived IMO.

A civilized man could never understand that kind of background. Even a guy like Tyson who may have had it kind of rough and ran with gangs at times, he wasn't sleeping on the street, fighting to avoid being raped or mugged when he was a skinny teenager.

Dempsey had it the roughest growing up of any of the heavyweight champions IMO, and his character and inner strength reflected that. He proved his toughness against Firpo, Brennan, and in hanging in there and continuing to fight when he was malnourished and suffering losses and bad management early in his career.

Dempsey 1919
03-07-2007, 05:59 PM
I think Dempsey's heart was just as good as Marciano's. Marciano was never homeless fighting just to get his next meal. Marciano fought to gain recognition and to escape a dull working class lifestyle, but the guy was never in danger of starving to death, unlike Dempsey, and had his family helping him out into his 20's. Dempsey was homeless at the age of 15-16 or so and was as hungry and courageous as any fighter who ever lived IMO.

A civilized man could never understand that kind of background. Even a guy like Tyson who may have had it kind of rough and ran with gangs at times, he wasn't sleeping on the street, fighting to avoid being raped or mugged when he was a skinny teenager.

Dempsey had it the roughest growing up of any of the heavyweight champions IMO, and his character and inner strength reflected that. He proved his toughness against Firpo, Brennan, and in hanging in there and continuing to fight when he was malnourished and suffering losses and bad management early in his career.

:fing02:...

brownpimp88
03-07-2007, 06:04 PM
I'm pretty sure jack johnson had it the hardest, not dempsey.

Dempsey 1919
03-07-2007, 06:08 PM
I'm pretty sure jack johnson had it the hardest, not dempsey.

Not really, Johnson wasn't homeless or starving to death like Dempsey.

Kid Achilles
03-07-2007, 06:17 PM
It was close, and Johnson had to deal with the racism of the time (which is difficult to even imagine today where racism is still alive but not to the extend it was hten, clearl), but reading his autobiography I did not get the impression he was clinging to the bottoms of trains riding the rails everywhere he went. Johnson was a big man, even when he was only 16, and had consistent work as a longshoreman. Dempsey was a skinny half starved 130-140 lber when he was that age, and lived out west where the long way to make a decent living was dangerous work like mining and lumber where death was always around the corner.

Johnson had it bad, but I give it to Dempsey because he was out west living under harsher weather and elements, and was a smaller guy growing up who was an easy target (unless they actually fought him) for the hobos living out there. Dempsey was protecting himself from rape, robbery, and murder when he was just out of puberty.

Johnson had to do a lot of physical labor as well but he rode around in train cars (much, much safer than riding the rails) and was better fed in general to my knowledge. I don't recall ever hearing or reading that Johnson starved as a young man.

Clearly Johnson had it very rough but I think Dempsey had it worse.

realheavyhands
03-11-2007, 07:48 PM
no white man had it worse then a black man in those times.

realheavyhands
03-11-2007, 08:18 PM
It was close, and Johnson had to deal with the racism of the time (which is difficult to even imagine today where racism is still alive but not to the extend it was hten, clearl), but reading his autobiography I did not get the impression he was clinging to the bottoms of trains riding the rails everywhere he went. Johnson was a big man, even when he was only 16, and had consistent work as a longshoreman. Dempsey was a skinny half starved 130-140 lber when he was that age, and lived out west where the long way to make a decent living was dangerous work like mining and lumber where death was always around the corner.

Johnson had it bad, but I give it to Dempsey because he was out west living under harsher weather and elements, and was a smaller guy growing up who was an easy target (unless they actually fought him) for the hobos living out there. Dempsey was protecting himself from rape, robbery, and murder when he was just out of puberty.

Johnson had to do a lot of physical labor as well but he rode around in train cars (much, much safer than riding the rails) and was better fed in general to my knowledge. I don't recall ever hearing or reading that Johnson starved as a young man.

Clearly Johnson had it very rough but I think Dempsey had it worse.

johnsons parents were slaves you have a lot of racist tendencies

Kid Achilles
03-11-2007, 08:18 PM
no white man had it worse then a black man in those times.

That's a generalization and just not true. The average black man had it worse than the average white men, yes, but the above statement you made is incorrect.

realheavyhands
03-11-2007, 08:25 PM
That's a generalization and just not true. The average black man had it worse than the average white men, yes, but the above statement you made is incorrect.

his parents were only former slaves.. wtf

potatoes
03-13-2007, 12:10 AM
A prime Dempsey vs. prime Marciano would probably resemble the fight that Dempsey had with Firpo. A lot of heavy leather being thrown and both men hitting the canvass. It is not clear to me who is the last guy to go down.

RockyMarcianofan00
03-13-2007, 01:27 AM
no white man had it worse then a black man in those times.

Well the fact that Johnson would go home and change his suits like twice a day, and Dempsey fought so he could eat should really tip you off too who had it worse....

Dempsey 1919
03-13-2007, 02:35 AM
Well the fact that Johnson would go home and change his suits like twice a day, and Dempsey fought so he could eat should really tip you off too who had it worse....

:thinking:

Underboss
03-13-2007, 02:55 AM
:thinking:when you have time, go on yahoo and accept me.

Dempsey 1919
03-13-2007, 02:56 AM
when you have time, go on yahoo and accept me.

Fine.:boxing:

Underboss
03-13-2007, 02:58 AM
Fine.:boxing:http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e183/DaDeHustLa/Smileys/thumb.gif

Underboss
03-13-2007, 02:59 AM
http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112081

lidsy
03-13-2007, 07:23 AM
What a great match up. I like Dempsey in this match up. His explosive starts give him a chance of hurting or possibly even stopping Marciano early. Dempsey was a great puncher but he could also be a great boxer and technician - see his fights against Carpentier and Gibbons. Dempsey had excellent lateral movement and was great at tucking his chin behind his left shoulder, and moving out of the range of punches. This would aid aim in defending against Marciano's great right hand. Tunney said that Dempsey was very difficult to hit cleanly on the jaw i.e. knock out. The key for Dempsey is to be aggressive but not careless early on when Marciano is at his most venerable. Don't walk into any big ammunition like as against Firpo, as Marciano was a far better finisher that the Wild Bull. The inside fighting in this fight would be awesome. Dempsey with his tremendous left hook to the body and uppercuts and Marciano with his great power, work rate and total hatred of being tied up. Very close fight, but if Marciano's great nights can include being knocked down and comfortably beaten by Walcott for 12 rounds, badly cut up by Charles, and knocked down by Moore, Dempsey should be able to account for him. Yes, Marciano recovered from all these situations to inflict KO defeats but Dempsey is a far superior fighter-puncher to these guys with enough mongrel and nous to take the bout.

realheavyhands
03-13-2007, 08:59 AM
Well the fact that Johnson would go home and change his suits like twice a day, and Dempsey fought so he could eat should really tip you off too who had it worse....

being a slave is the worst thing u can be ...and if johnson didn fight he could always fall back on being a slave and get food huh?..if dempsey had it that bad he could of been somebodies slave to get food but who the **** would wanna be a slave get beat till you back bled watch you family get raped.. white people just dont get it even afer all these years thats why things wll never change until every body is mixed

Dempsey 1919
03-13-2007, 01:42 PM
being a slave is the worst thing u can be ...and if johnson didn fight he could always fall back on being a slave and get food huh?..if dempsey had it that bad he could of been somebodies slave to get food but who the **** would wanna be a slave get beat till you back bled watch you family get raped.. white people just dont get it even afer all these years thats why things wll never change until every body is mixed

I think slavery was abolished in 1865, which would mean that probably Johnson was never or would become a slave.:rolleyes:

Underboss
03-13-2007, 02:02 PM
I think slavery was abolished in 1865, which would mean that probably Johnson was never or would become a slave.:rolleyes:his parents were former slaves.

Dempsey 1919
03-13-2007, 02:07 PM
his parents were former slaves.

That doesn't mean that he had a harder life than Dempsey.

Underboss
03-13-2007, 02:27 PM
That doesn't mean that he had a harder life than Dempsey.shut the **** up :p

Dempsey 1919
03-13-2007, 02:33 PM
shut the **** up :p

But it's true.

leff
03-13-2007, 03:20 PM
shut the **** up :p

so because his parents was slaves he had a worse early life than dempsey who was a hobbo as a teen?

Kid Achilles
03-13-2007, 05:22 PM
Johnson would have never been a slave, and as I've already said he lived in a milder climate, had better a better time of getting safe work (hard physical work on the dock but being a longshoreman is much safer than blasting mines with dynamite and fearing cave ins and poisonous gas) and getting starting in boxing. Johnson matured physically pretty fast and was making money and a name for himself in the sport pretty early in life. He had some setbacks but he was able to stay well fed enough to maintain a 180-190 lb physique (as opposed to Dempsey's 130-150 lbs at the same height) and ride in the carts of trains, which is a higher and safer position than gripping the bottom of the rail and hoping you don't fall off, as Dempsey had to do.

Remember, he was known as the Galveston Giant, he was not starving to death.

Yeah Johnson had to deal with racism, which was horrible at the time, but there's nothing worse than starvation and dealing with harsh weather and conditions with no one to really trust or look after you. Dempsey was known to walk for miles in the hot sun from one town to the next, just to fight an exhausting bout for a few bucks to eat. Later he may have to fight to hold on to that money again from those who would take it.

I'd much rather be a teenage Johnson than a teenage Dempsey. One was muscular and decently fed and going somewhere in boxing, the other was a scraggly stick who couldn't trust the hobos he slept near, with no real hope in sight.

Kilrain
10-19-2013, 06:48 AM
A prime Dempsey vs. prime Marciano would probably resemble the fight that Dempsey had with Firpo. A lot of heavy leather being thrown and both men hitting the canvass. It is not clear to me who is the last guy to go down.

That's how I see it, which isn't seeing it at all I suppose, it's just so damn hard to make a prediction on this one. Like a lot of others, I see Dempsey having his best chance early, with the Rock steaming all over him if it goes past 5. This would be the mother of all pit fights, though.

Mr Ribtickler
10-19-2013, 07:20 AM
Dempsey would do too much damage early on.As tuff as Rocky was the Maulers ferocity would tear him up.We'll neva know for sure tho.Would b helluva brutal match!

billeau2
10-19-2013, 07:57 AM
Marciano definetely had more stamina, but how do you know he could take it more? Dempsey had amazing recuperative powers. Also heart would be equal. For some fighters, after a certain point heart is not measurable, and both these guys had all the heart you could want. Dempsey was a fast starter, probably the fastest starter in the history of boxing. Marciano was a traditionally slow starter and very vulnerable in the early rounds. Dempsey was able to hammer Jess Willard around the ring, whose chin was much better than Marciano's. If Dempsey hit Marciano with those cat-quick blows of dynamite, Marciano couldn't stay on his feet. I'd say Dempsey takes him out early in no more than four rounds. If Marciano gets past the six round, then he wins, but I doubt the fight would last under the fury of Dempsey's attack.

You keep referring to marciano's chin....How would you know how much measurably better Demsey's chin is than Marciano considering the number of times Marciano's chin was challenged? Dempsey meanwhile was beat around the ring by the wild man of Pomona spain and almost lost that fight....was down against the much smaller Tunney.

I am not sure who would win, still thinking about it but your lack of logic combined with the willngness to call others stupid is irritating.

billeau2
10-19-2013, 08:20 AM
One interesting thing about this fight is how marciano fought many types of guys but, unless one can call Starza a swarmer....the rock never really had to fight fire with fire.

Dempsey's pace would be an interesting feature in this fight. How long could he attack Marciano?

Meanwhile Dempsey, showing an occasional weakness for very technical fighters (Tunney) never fought a swarmer on the order of the rock. Firpo was te closest in this regard and Firpo did get to Jack, albeit that was a weird fight and I would hesitate to think Firpo's crazy initial rushes was anything that exposed Dempsey.

Hard fight to call....Stamina wise maybe the Rock. Both guys had whiskers. Taken in parts, Dempsey's great punch selection was presumably something that the Rock had dealt with (Ezzerd Charles, Louis, etc) but again, not with the pressure Dempsey could bring.

I am on the fence with this one.

Sugar Adam Ali
10-19-2013, 05:24 PM
Not a big fan of either,, i think they are horribly overrated,,,

but if i had to pick, i would say marciano would stop dempsey in a wild brawl that would only last a few rounds... I think marciano hits harder and has a better chin...

GeneralZod
10-19-2013, 06:14 PM
I'm joining the late bump crowd.

Rocky by 10th round TKO. Both bleed like a motherfcker and it's dead even until someone drops, i give Marciano the edge by his chin and KO power.

ShoulderRoll
10-19-2013, 07:58 PM
Dempsey hit harder, had better footwork and head movement, and was technically more sound than The Rock. I'd pick him to win.

bklynboy
10-21-2013, 12:51 AM
<b>being a slave is the worst thing u can be </b>...and if johnson didn fight he could always fall back on being a slave and get food huh?..if dempsey had it that bad he could of been somebodies slave to get food but who the **** would wanna be a slave get beat till you back bled watch you family get raped.. white people just dont get it even afer all these years thats why things wll never change until every body is mixed

True. But slavery does not equal living in harsh conditions. Many slaves lived in very harsh and degrading conditions but many (while still in a subservient, degraded role) lived a soft physical life. The life of an Irish miner in 1850 was more brutal and much more dangerous than life as a slave in the American plantations. Notice that American slaves were not miners (it was much too dangerous).

You could never say that ALL blacks lived a harder life than ALL whites. You can certainly say that "most", or "on average" but not ALL. And Dempsey seems have had as rough an upbringing as you can get.

Re Johnson having had slaves for parents. You do realize that some ex-slaves in the south ended up having slaves themselves. (But that's an aside). Jack Johnson was raised in 2 parent household in which the parents had enough money to take care of the necessities. See page 6 of

http://www.amazon.com/Unforgivable-Blackness-Rise-Fall-Johnson/dp/0375710043

His parents worked blue collar jobs; saved enough to buy some property and build a house. I'm not saying that Jack Johnson lead a charmed, upper-class life. He did not. I'm not saying he didn't suffer from a brutal racism. He did. But his upbringing was, from all we can tell, much better than Dempsey's on a physical survival level (food, clothing, shelter, basic physical safety).

If you haven't read it I highly recommend reading Unforgivable Blackness.

Anthony342
10-21-2013, 01:50 AM
Wasn't Unforgivable Blackness also a documentary?

bklynboy
10-21-2013, 02:19 AM
Wasn't Unforgivable Blackness also a documentary?

Yeah. It was a Ken Burns documentary. Haven't seen it but it should be good. Ken Burns has made some excellent documentaries.

billeau2
10-21-2013, 09:22 AM
Yeah. It was a Ken Burns documentary. Haven't seen it but it should be good. Ken Burns has made some excellent documentaries.


An excellent documentary, I think it is on Youtube. One could argue intelligently that Johnson's aspirations...which is what he is on the whole most famous for to the general public, came out of being raised to want more than the basic necessities which do appear to have been provided for him.

Guys like Dempsy on the other hand hardly felt entitled to a meal....Many people in his economic position literally worked for a meal provided. So your point is valid.

Anthony342
10-21-2013, 01:26 PM
I believe Johnson also patented some kind of new tool when in prison as well.

MisterHardtop
10-21-2013, 01:26 PM
they both were beasts back in da day. who do you think was better?

This is a scary match up, both men hit hard and they both came to fight. I'm too young (not everyday I get to say that) to have seen either box live but from what I have seen in videos and fight clips, Dempsey seemed to be the more dynamic of the two. He had better footwork, sharper reaction times and had that indefinable quality that makes such sportsmen so great.

Marciano on the other hand was far slower but he may have had a better chin and his heart is unquestionable. He'd take a beating and then, in the blink of an eye, his opponent would be gasping for breath on the canvas. A prime Dempsey could easily be the best opponent Marciano ever faced, could he take Dempsey's grenades? Could he land on Dempsey effectively enough to stop him? I just don't think so.

Dempsey by UD.

louis54
10-26-2013, 10:32 PM
i would bet on dempsey. the one thing marciano had over dempsey was stanima everything else dempsey was better at and the one time hungry dempsey was everybit as determined as marciano ever was and was probably tougher. a war while it lasts

Ziggy Stardust
10-26-2013, 11:56 PM
i would bet on dempsey. the one thing marciano had over dempsey was stanima everything else dempsey was better at and the one time hungry dempsey was everybit as determined as marciano ever was and was probably tougher. a war while it lasts

I'd give Marciano the edge in power and chin too. Still, I'd expect Dempsey to hit Marciano a hell of a lot more than Marciano hits him. I don't think Rocky's brittle skin holds up under the kind of assault Dempsey would bring.

elpistolero92
10-27-2013, 05:30 AM
Great mythical match up. Too close to call but will go for Dempsey KO.

KidKwik
10-27-2013, 09:56 PM
I think Dempsey was better in pretty much every area of boxing. He'd beat Marciano, I won't say handily, but he would definitely beat him. As others have stated, Marciano's best wins came against old fighters. Rocky may have had a better chin and that's it

Sugarj
10-28-2013, 11:50 AM
Its nice to see Dempsey getting so many supporters here. I'd back him to win this one by cuts or decision too. I just feel that his all round game, sheer speed and athleticism were superior.

Humean
10-28-2013, 02:54 PM
The old guys Marciano beat were better than any of the heavyweights that Dempsey beat.

This would be an ugly scrap with the ref having to separate them every time there was an engagement. Dempsey moved better than Marciano, quicker too, but Marciano would wear him down for a late stoppage in a 15 round fight.

GeneralZod
10-28-2013, 04:10 PM
The old guys Marciano beat were better than any of the heavyweights that Dempsey beat.

This would be an ugly scrap with the ref having to separate them every time there was an engagement. Dempsey moved better than Marciano, quicker too, but Marciano would wear him down for a late stoppage in a 15 round fight.

Though Dempsey dominated his time, Walcott, Charles, and Moore were a step above most of Jack's competition. Minus Tunney or Firpo.

Humean
10-28-2013, 05:25 PM
Though Dempsey dominated his time, Walcott, Charles, and Moore were a step above most of Jack's competition. Minus Tunney or Firpo.

The only guy Dempsey fought that was on Charles, Walcott, Moore and perhaps even the old past it Louis' level was Tunney and he lost both those fights. Firpo was not very good.

GeneralZod
10-28-2013, 07:20 PM
The only guy Dempsey fought that was on Charles, Walcott, Moore and perhaps even the old past it Louis' level was Tunney and he lost both those fights. Firpo was not very good.

I admit i was scraping bottom of the barrel with Firpo. But sht, he's the closest guy i think of aside from Gene T.

Humean
10-28-2013, 07:59 PM
I admit i was scraping bottom of the barrel with Firpo. But sht, he's the closest guy i think of aside from Gene T.

Carpentier and Sharkey may have been better options. Whichever way you look at it the criticism of Marciano's record is harsh when people are not so ready to criticize Dempsey's or Jack Johnson's. Lousy opponents is the staple of Heavyweight boxing.

GeneralZod
10-28-2013, 08:03 PM
Carpentier and Sharkey may have been better options. Whichever way you look at it the criticism of Marciano's record is harsh when people are not so ready to criticize Dempsey's or Jack Johnson's. Lousy opponents is the staple of Heavyweight boxing.

Forgot Carpentier. I wouldn't put Sharkey up that high. Next to Carnera i'd make him the weakest champion Joe Louis beat. Jack Johnson does have James J. Jeffries on his record, despite it being a comeback. Other than that his isn't very impressive, competition wise. Him beating Tommy Burns like a ragdoll was funny though.

Humean
10-28-2013, 08:46 PM
Forgot Carpentier. I wouldn't put Sharkey up that high. Next to Carnera i'd make him the weakest champion Joe Louis beat. Jack Johnson does have James J. Jeffries on his record, despite it being a comeback. Other than that his isn't very impressive, competition wise. Him beating Tommy Burns like a ragdoll was funny though.

Carnera was definitely a fraud, I personally think Sharkey was something of a fraud too. Jeffries was past it but i'm sure Johnson would have beaten him even at his best.

Ray Corso
10-29-2013, 09:44 AM
If it were possible to put together it would out sell any ppv today thats for sure!
I do believe they'd be evenly matched and I also know it would be brutal from opening bell to whatever.......
They could fight each other three times then retire multi-millionaires!
I'd guess 100 million each ......................each fight!
Ray.

ShoulderRoll
10-29-2013, 01:50 PM
Jack Johnson does have James J. Jeffries on his record, despite it being a comeback. Other than that his isn't very impressive, competition wise.

He also beat Sam Langford, Joe Jeannette, and Sam McVea.

GeneralZod
10-29-2013, 04:17 PM
He also beat Sam Langford, Joe Jeannette, and Sam McVea.

Actually didn't know he beat Langford, forgot about Jeannette.