View Full Version : Ali-Frazier I


DuncanJL
10-21-2005, 08:32 PM
Ali Frazier I...It's the machine-like forward progress of Joe Frazier hardly slowing to the rat-ta-tat free flowing fire of Muhammad Ali.. My wonder for this fight is more with Ali than Frazier. The man didn't fight in a professional fight for 4 years. During that time, his body changed significantly and he wasn't fighting enough to become cognizent of and to adapt to those changes. The fight shows the truth. The man had such resource that he could lose countless degrees of speed (hand, but more losing body/foot speed) and countless degrees of punching accuracy, both of which were more vital to Ali than other premiere heavyweights and still return to shake a glorious heavyweight division which had certainly nearly evolved past him. I can't understand how his body(nervous system, skeletal structure) is able to endure such horrible punishment and regenerate itself for the silly run he went on from mid-late '71 on to '74 in besting every top heavy in the world. Certainly he won many of his great fights during the '70's because of his uncanny chin and iron body that allowed him to absorb punishment and return with more fire than the opponent.

Dempsey 1919
10-25-2005, 02:09 PM
This was almost the perfect fight. The two most overwelmingly conflicting styles were that of Ali and Frazier. Ali, elusive pinpointing his bullet-fast jabs and leads onto Frazier's face, and Smokin' Joe, applying the pressure, getting in powerful body shots and that famous Philadelphia left hook, allways pressing, allways giving his opponent no room to breathe.

I said this was almost the perfect fight because Ali was bothered by almost 4 years of inactivity. Between 1967 and 1970, Ali, scary as it may sound would have been much better than he was at, say the start of 1967! He would have been stronger and his foot speed would not have diminished. If the U.S. had not stripped him of what was rightfully his, Ali and Frazier probably would have fought either in 1968 or 1969, in the REAL prime of Ali's career. The end result would have been that Ali danced circles around Frazier, and knocked him out, although it probably would have been the butterfly's toughest title defense of his whole career, not what actually happened on that fateful day in March of 1971.

Frazier's 15th round
10-25-2005, 06:19 PM
Uh, guys? Ali was able to train and spar during his exile. And he did. It's not like he just sat on a couch for 3 1/2 years and then went into the ring. Also, you exaggerate how much his skills had deteriorated. He had worked out on the heavy bag a lot more prior to the fight, and he was STRONGER than he was before his exile. Also, he had lost a little speed, but not that much.

Dance rings around Frazier? You listen to Thomas Hauser too much. If Ali couldn't dance rings around guys like Chuvalo and Mildenberger, how do you think he would do against a PRIME Joe Frazier? No, wait. We already saw that. He got beat by a pretty big margin.

Dempsey 1919
10-25-2005, 06:41 PM
He completely destroyed Mildenburger and Chivalo. Its just that it did'nt look that way bebause he destroyed everyone else 10 times as worse. Mildenburger gave Ali trouble because he was a southpaw, Frazier wasn't. Chivalo was a tough fighter that never went down. He's not as good as Frazier, but he definitely didn't give Ali as much trouble as you say he did. Ali won twice over Chivalo an overwelming unanimous decision, with all scorecards giving Ali almost one-third more points than Chivalo.

As for that Ali wasn't in that bad shape, maybe at that time he wasn't, but my thing is that if Ali was a little faster, he would have avoided most of Frazier's punches, and he would have gotten more in, and in the end scored a knockout between about the 8th and 13th round.

DuncanJL
10-25-2005, 07:12 PM
Ill just say in response that I'm not one of those Ali whiners who uses the layoff excuses to claim he wouldve "danced circles" around any opponent. It's too easy to look at Ali's pre-layoff dominance and explain that his post-layoff loss to Frazier was due solely to a deterioration of his skills(and not Frazier's greatness). I always have Frazier's back in arguments. There is no denying that he was as scary a heavyweight during that period as anyone in history. He was probably faster on his feet, more unrelenting, and more vicious a puncher than anyone Ali had faced before in his career. My point is that it is truly phenomenal that in an era where so many of the best 200lb athletes were fighters and when the heavyweight division was so glorious, Ali could come back after 4 yrs of no professional fights to go straight back to the top. These heavyweights were among the top 1% of all professional athletes, in my opinion, and for a fighter to lose 4 years of his prime and come back to still be basically on top is ridiculous. And to address your other point, training and sparring just to stay in shape is something entirely different from training and sparring with a fight on the horizon. He never let himself lose his shape completely, but it was a far less focused training regimen than he would have been going through to prepare for a title fight. Come on man have a little respect for the epic status of Ali's '70's comeback. Don't say that Ali didn't lose much. His fight style up to that point had been based almost entirely on foot/hand speed and punching accuracy. Those parts of his arsenal were severely impaired by the 4 year layoff. I understand that he may have acquired more power as a slightly older fighter, but he had not yet learned to harness and rely on this power. Eventually his greatness would lend itself to a new strategy for winning fights, the rope-a-dope. But the knowledge this strategy was based on, Ali's punishment enduring capabilities, could not have been gathered without the horrible reality check of his encounter with Frazier. Against Frazier, he was still using old tactics like pulling away from left hooks (relying on his footspeed), other maneuvers as well. Many of these proved ill fated options at this point in his career(especially against a machine like Frazier). To wrap up, I'll say it took him exactly three, count em, THREE, fights to effectively learn what sort of fighter he needed to become and which of his resources he could depend more heavily upon. As if fighting Frazier wasn't enough, he had to do it while learning and crafting his fight style all over again ? How great can one man be ????

DuncanJL
10-26-2005, 04:26 AM
and Chuvalo and Mildenburger lost in some of the most lopsided title fights of the '60s. Walks in the park for Ali. I think the only reason anyone says that Mildenburger gave Ali a tough fight is because Ali liked to say that. I don't see it. Mildenburger is hurt badly within the first 5 rounds or so and is a dead man walking after that. I think Ali was simply giving the German crowd that false hope and excitement that he loved to give crowds only to eventually take it away.

Dempsey 1919
10-26-2005, 10:57 AM
and Chuvalo and Mildenburger lost in some of the most lopsided title fights of the '60s. Walks in the park for Ali. I think the only reason anyone says that Mildenburger gave Ali a tough fight is because Ali liked to say that. I don't see it. Mildenburger is hurt badly within the first 5 rounds or so and is a dead man walking after that. I think Ali was simply giving the German crowd that false hope and excitement that he loved to give crowds only to eventually take it away.

Good point DuncanJL, however Mildenburger did land a body shot on Ali that did hurt him in the 6th round. And because he was a southpaw, Ali had to start moving to the right and not his usual left as you would see from watching the fight. This at times threw him off balance, and the German southpaw took advantage at times. Also if you notice he was holding his hands way higher than usual, meaning he was showing respect for the challenger and showing some precaution. And Chuvalo took the best from Ali and gave some back. He did win a couple of rounds(that's more than his other opponents could have said in the 60's).

Frazier's 15th round
10-26-2005, 02:08 PM
Ali is the greatest, but I do think a lot of people say he dances around anyone with ease in his prime, but don't say anything to back it up. He's awesome, but come on. Give a little credit to the guys who fought before him, and maybe to a few who fought after him.

Dempsey 1919
10-26-2005, 02:51 PM
Ali is the greatest, but I do think a lot of people say he dances around anyone with ease in his prime, but don't say anything to back it up. He's awesome, but come on. Give a little credit to the guys who fought before him, and maybe to a few who fought after him.
i said it before, and i'll say it again. IF YOU CAN'T HIT SOMEONE, IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW STRONG YOU ARE! name one fighter that moved faster than ali, back it up and i'll give you props.

Frazier's 15th round
10-27-2005, 06:55 AM
After the first fight, Ali said this:

"I woulda lost quicker."

That was in response to a question asking what would have happened if Ali and Frazier had met before the exile. Ali HIMSELF said that.

Dempsey 1919
10-27-2005, 01:45 PM
if the layoff had not occured, ali would have been stronger and quicker in 1968 or 69, when they would have fought. what do you have to say about that?

Frazier's 15th round
10-27-2005, 10:51 PM
Frazier still would have whooped him. :)

Dempsey 1919
10-27-2005, 11:47 PM
if he had strength and speed, frazier would have been no more than an exhibition match for ali. remember, it wasn't a total slaughter in 1971. ali almost won and frazier spent months recooperating in a hospital after the fight lol!

Frazier's 15th round
10-27-2005, 11:53 PM
What are you talking about? Ali almost won? It never looked like Ali hurt Frazier once. Frazier was taunting him. And also, he was beating him badly on two different occasions.

Frazier's 15th round
10-27-2005, 11:54 PM
Also, it wasn't months. It was 3 weeks that Frazier spent in the hospital. It was more his high blood pressure than the damage Ali did in the fight.

Dempsey 1919
10-28-2005, 12:57 AM
after the first fight, frazier's face looked like someone stuck two golf ball up his eyes and blew up his lips like a balloon. ali had just a slightly swollen jaw, but was fine, watch the fight. arter the 14th round it was a tie on all score cards. and the knockdown in the 15th was what won the round and the fight for frazier. and it wasn't that hard either. ali himself said that the knowndown was more from exhaustion than anything else.

DuncanJL
10-28-2005, 01:07 AM
ali couldn't have hurt Frazier with 80 rounds of what he was bringing in Ali-Frazier I. you are delusional. he didn't "almost win". he never came close to winning.

DuncanJL
10-28-2005, 01:11 AM
WHAT ?/?
THE LEFT HOOK THAT PUT ALI DOWN IN THE 15TH OF ALI-FRAZIER I WAS PROBABLY THE HARDEST, MOST FLUSH, CONNECT IN THE HISTORY OF BOXING. it spun his head all the way around and made him lose consciousness. "watch the tape"???? you watch the tape. ha his head should have become detached from his spinal cord. i'll estimate 99% of the normal population would have been killed by that left hook. just that ali is a superhuman and nothing can knock him out.

DuncanJL
10-28-2005, 01:21 AM
if you don't know about the beating Ali took in Ali-Frazier I than you don't know half the Ali story.

Frazier's 15th round
10-28-2005, 01:51 AM
Okay, during the first fight, it was clearly Frazier who won. Afterwards, Ali only spent like 20 minutes in the hospital, and Frazier spent three weeks. Now, the second fight, who cares. Ali held a lot, neither one got hurt. In the third, Ali was teeing off on Frazier's head. Ali clearly won that one. Afterwards, it was Ali who was worse off. He fainted twice, and showed his first signs of Parkinson's after that fight.

Basically, the winner wins their fights, but comes off worse afterwards. Pretty strange. Anyways, it was pretty clear who won each fight. Here is how I saw it:

Fight of the Century, 10-5 Frazier
Ugly Middle Sister, 7-5 Ali
Thrilla in Manila, 8-6 Ali, would have been 9-6 if it went to 15

DuncanJL
10-28-2005, 02:13 AM
where did you read that he showed his first signs of parkinson's after Manila ?

Dempsey 1919
10-28-2005, 03:42 PM
WHAT ?/?
THE LEFT HOOK THAT PUT ALI DOWN IN THE 15TH OF ALI-FRAZIER I WAS PROBABLY THE HARDEST, MOST FLUSH, CONNECT IN THE HISTORY OF BOXING. it spun his head all the way around and made him lose consciousness. "watch the tape"???? you watch the tape. ha his head should have become detached from his spinal cord. i'll estimate 99% of the normal population would have been killed by that left hook. just that ali is a superhuman and nothing can knock him out.
joe frazier himself said that punch wasn't that hard and that he hit ali with harder punches in that fight. i read it in frazier's autobiography, smokin' joe . i would rather believe the man that threw the punch than some body that probably doesn't know crap about boxing. and i'm not on ali's nuts either. you on frazier's nut's because he beat ali when he was a shell of his old self. get the facts straight. how could anyone say that ali fought frazier in his prime (ali). that is trash and garbage crap. maybe your brain is filled with crap since you said ali was in his prime in 1971, when in actuality he never really reached his true prime thanks to the racist 1960s united states of america. if you actually saw that whole fight frazier was backing ali in corners. you think anyone could corner ali in his prime. if you watched ali previous fight in 1970 against bonavena ali was getting hit alot by wild and clumsy shots, getting backed in the corner, and ali was throwing a lot of times very slow punches. ali in 1970 would have danced around bonavena easily and ko'd him in four rounds or less and you know it. the same bonavena who knocked down frazier in 1966 in the early rounds twice. he couldn't even come close to knocking down ali when he fought him in 1970.so just as ali looked bad with bonavena, but would have embarrased him in 1967 or 68, (if the u.s. hadn't stripped him bonavena would have been his next opponent in tokyo), likewise ali would have beaten frazier either by late ko, late cuts, or unanimous decision in 1968 or 69, when they WOULD have fought if he still had his title. think before you post stuff up because frazier couldn't even carry ali jock strap, let alone beat him at his real prime (1968-1969).

DuncanJL
10-28-2005, 05:34 PM
im not even gonna get started. everything you said was wrong. dude. there is no way ali's prime was 1971 and i have never said that. we never saw his prime in my mind. but try telling that to floyd patterson or ernie terrell.

DuncanJL
10-28-2005, 05:37 PM
ali in 1970 would have danced around bonavena easily and ko'd him in four rounds or less and you know it.


i gotta say that they sort of did fight in 1970. and i have to say that ali wasn't dancing circles around anyone. it went 15 and ali wasn't sharp. you douche.

Skydog
10-28-2005, 05:55 PM
Either way, both men would have given eachother a hell of a time. Ali wouldn't have beaten the **** out of Frazier in his prime, the results would have been nearly the same. When Ali was in his prime, he never threw punches as hard as he did in 1971, because he stood on his toes and got his whole body into his punches. In the 60's, he just danced and threw light, but effective flurries. Also, Ali was nailing Frazier with some of the hardest, fastest combinations he ever threw. Sure, he hit Frazier a lot more in the 2nd and 3rd fights, but he was still nailing Frazier in the 1st fight.

The only thing Ali struck out on that night was that he was facing a champion that was fully focused, determined, and ready for Ali. The two opponents Frazier was going to face were going to be Ali or Bonavena, one who had knocked Frazier down twice before, and the return of the greatest boxer of all-time. Joe had to have trained his ass off even if he didn't know who it was he was going to fight.

Anyway, I doubt there's anyone who could have beaten Joe Frazier on the night of March 8, 1971.

Frazier's 15th round
10-28-2005, 05:58 PM
You just showed how much you are on Ali's nuts by saying that the man who came close to killing Ali couldn't hold his jock strap in their primes.

Duncan, Ali's wife or girlfriend or whoever said that shortly after that fight, Ali would shake and punch in his sleep.

Dempsey 1919
10-28-2005, 07:08 PM
i gotta say that they sort of did fight in 1970. and i have to say that ali wasn't dancing circles around anyone. it went 15 and ali wasn't sharp. you douche.
It was a misprint. I meant to say 1968. so there.