Ruiz fans are just like any other people.
They use inductive and deductive reasoning to reach logical conclusions.

For those who might perhaps be unfamiliar with these methods:

Deductive reasoning is when you make a generalization about something and base your conclusion about something on that generalization.

Here is an example:

A longer reach provides distance fighting advantage.
Joe has the longer reach.
Joe has a distance fighting advantage.



Inductive reasoning is different in that it relies on observation of patterns. Patterns being a repetition of events. Then a generalization or conclusion is reached.

Here is an example:

The ref permitted one fighter to hit the other while the other was down.
The ref then permitted one fighter to hit the other behind the head.

The ref repeatedly warns only one fighter.

Conclusion or inductive leap:

This is biased ref.


Now this is the well-known and accepted way in which conclusions are reached in logic and in the sciences as well.


Unfortunately, when Ruiz fans use these established reasoning methods, some anti-Ruiz say that Ruiz fans are being illogical.

Instead of striving to explain the suspicious behavior that causes Ruiz fans to take notice, these Anti Ruiz fans choose to criticize them for noticing the suspicious behavior in the first place!!!!


In short, they take umbrage not really with the issues involved. They are actually taking umbrage with the principles of reasonung itself.

Which speaks volumes about the intellectual level at which some anti-Ruiz fans are functioning.


BTW

A person wishing not to be suspected must not act suspiciously.
Otherwise suspicion will arise concerning the suspicious behavior.

Ruiz has fans? Where?

Ok, I found one. Here he is, most likely the only true Ruiz fan. He lives in Takoma with his mother and works at the local 7-11. Here he is.........Barney.


http://ulrichprinz.de/travel/peru/pics/lima-downtown/pe-07-lima-04-miraflores-25-guy-selling-old-camera.jpg

Ruiz fans are just like any other people.
They use inductive and deductive reasoning to reach logical conclusions.

For those who might perhaps be unfamiliar with these methods:

Deductive reasoning is when you make a generalization about something and base your conclusion about something on that generalization.

Here is an example:

A longer reach provides distance fighting advantage.
Joe has the longer reach.
Joe has a distance fighting advantage.



Inductive reasoning is different in that it relies on observation of patterns. Patterns being a repetition of events. Then a generalization or conclusion is reached.

Here is an example:

The ref permitted one fighter to hit the other while the other was down.
The ref then permitted one fighter to hit the other behind the head.

The ref repeatedly warns only one fighter.

Conclusion or inductive leap:

This is biased ref.


Now this is the well-known and accepted way in which conclusions are reached in logic and in the sciences as well.


Unfortunately, when Ruiz fans use these established reasoning methods, some anti-Ruiz say that Ruiz fans are being illogical.

Instead of striving to explain the suspicious behavior that causes Ruiz fans to take notice, these Anti Ruiz fans choose to criticize them for noticing the suspicious behavior in the first place!!!!


In short, they take umbrage not really with the issues involved. They are actually taking umbrage with the principles of reasonung itself.

Which speaks volumes about the intellectual level at which some anti-Ruiz fans are functioning.


BTW

A person wishing not to be suspected must not act suspiciously.
Otherwise suspicion will arise concerning the suspicious behavior.


Wow......a Ruiz defender. That's bad enough.....but throw in an overly wordy, windbagged post....& you have yourself a real loser of a boxing forum poster.
Rocko, you sucko.

man that's strange what you are doing here....you take the most horrible guy to watch-for us on this forum at least-and you defend himself by saying some of us are stupid.
and you say it in a very pretentious way
not the best way to enter the forum IMO but you do what you want :confused:

man that's strange what you are doing here....you take the most horrible guy to watch-for us on this forum at least-and you defend himself by saying some of us are stupid.
and you say it in a very pretentious way
not the best way to enter the forum IMO but you do what you want :confused:


This is for all of the Rocko's & NichtGeflechten's of the internet boxing world :


Do you know how stupid you come across, trying to wow people on here with your verbal "skills" ?
Do you understand what we are discussing here ? We are discussing two guys getting together & beating the **** out of each other with their fists, for money. We hope, that when they do accomplish this, that they do it well.

Now, most of us in here understand what you're saying, complex & bloated as it is.
Don't worry, you're not talking above our heads.

Basically, talking about this sport like you do (flexing your brain power) is just a big ol' waste of ****in' time.

You'd get laughed out of most boxing circles with your eggheadedness....if not *****slapped first.

Anyone can think himself qualified enough for practically anything.
It happens all the time at the funny farms.

Ruiz fans don't make the claims you say.
So your examples are nothing more than perfect examples of lies.

I suggest that you stop using straw man arguments.
Be honest in your statements.
It makes for credibility.

BTW
Well known by anyone familiar with basic reasoning.



About your tongue-in-cheek accusation that I am confusing deduction with induction--why not explain yourself so I can be of help.

Also, I don't need an article to teach me such a basic subject.
But thanx anyway.
Actually, to me it is quite patent that you misunderstood not only my explanation but the article you are referring to as well.

Anyone can think himself qualified enough for practically anything.
It happens all the time at the funny farms.

Ruiz fans don't make the claims you say.
So your examples are nothing more than perfect examples of lies.

I suggest that you stop using straw man arguments.
Be honest in your statements.
It makes for credibility.

BTW
Well known by anyone familiar with basic reasoning.



About your tongue-in-cheek accusation that I am confusing deduction with induction--why not explain yourself so I can be of help.

Also, I don't need an article to teach me such a basic subject.
But thanx anyway.
Actually, to me it is quite patent that you misunderstood not only my explanation but the article you are referring to as well.
Well said..

Anyone can think himself qualified enough for practically anything.
It happens all the time at the funny farms.

Ruiz fans don't make the claims you say.
So your examples are nothing more than perfect examples of lies.

I suggest that you stop using straw man arguments.
Be honest in your statements.
It makes for credibility.

BTW
Well known by anyone familiar with basic reasoning.



About your tongue-in-cheek accusation that I am confusing deduction with induction--why not explain yourself so I can be of help.

Also, I don't need an article to teach me such a basic subject.
But thanx anyway.
Actually, to me it is quite patent that you misunderstood not only my explanation but the article you are referring to as well.

Actually, buddy....I don't care about what you're trying to say.
After all, the subject is Ruiz.

I'm concerned about how you're saying it.....& how pathetic it is.
You're a pseudo-intellectual.
Take your overblown theories to somewhere else besides a BOXING forum.

You're ridiculous.

Using ad hominem now huh?
Ummm, OK.

Professor?
I see you never attended college.
No thanx.
I don't qualify in the buffoonery department.
You might though.


Who would want to watch something they don't like?
I don't know?
Since you are one of the self-proclaimed weirdoes that does that, you tell me.

Sigh!
As I said before, don't like?
Don't watch.

Too profound for you?

Not boxing?
Ah Heh! Heh! Heh!
Ummmmmm, how come it not be boxing when Ruiz does it but it sho don be boxing when yo boy Ali don did it? Mmmmmmm?


Nady does what? Enforce rules?
Excuse a me but:

Sure, sure! Uhuh! uhhuh! Sure!

Like he enforced them in the recent Williams Vitali fight right?

Say what?

Skill?

English is obviously not your native tongue is it?
Look up the word in the dictionary and memorize its meaning. Otherwise you will continue to disgorge what the more knowledgeable on this site consider ignorance-derived drivel.



You know amigo. the more you try to act educated the more you remind me of a famous Spanish saying that goes like a so.

"El mono aunque lo vistan de seda, mono se queda."

BTW

I don't see you blaming the "refs" for not enforcing the rules in other fights. Ummmmm, why?

Also, I found a number of basic grammatical errors in your writing that I could very easily focus on. But since that is not the purpose of this forum, I won't.

Ruiz fans are just like any other people.
They use inductive and deductive reasoning to reach logical conclusions.

For those who might perhaps be unfamiliar with these methods:

Deductive reasoning is when you make a generalization about something and base your conclusion about something on that generalization.

Here is an example:

A longer reach provides distance fighting advantage.
Joe has the longer reach.
Joe has a distance fighting advantage.



Inductive reasoning is different in that it relies on observation of patterns. Patterns being a repetition of events. Then a generalization or conclusion is reached.

Here is an example:

The ref permitted one fighter to hit the other while the other was down.
The ref then permitted one fighter to hit the other behind the head.

The ref repeatedly warns only one fighter.

Conclusion or inductive leap:

This is biased ref.


Now this is the well-known and accepted way in which conclusions are reached in logic and in the sciences as well.


Unfortunately, when Ruiz fans use these established reasoning methods, some anti-Ruiz say that Ruiz fans are being illogical.

Instead of striving to explain the suspicious behavior that causes Ruiz fans to take notice, these Anti Ruiz fans choose to criticize them for noticing the suspicious behavior in the first place!!!!


In short, they take umbrage not really with the issues involved. They are actually taking umbrage with the principles of reasonung itself.

Which speaks volumes about the intellectual level at which some anti-Ruiz fans are functioning.


BTW

A person wishing not to be suspected must not act suspiciously.
Otherwise suspicion will arise concerning the suspicious behavior.


I don't think we can use plural to describe the Ruiz fan.

Using ad hominem now huh?
Ummm, OK.

Professor?
I see you never attended college.
No thanx.
I don't qualify in the buffoonery department.
You might though.


Who would want to watch something they don't like?
I don't know?
Since you are one of the self-proclaimed weirdoes that does that, you tell me.

Sigh!
As I said before, don't like?
Don't watch.

Too profound for you?

Not boxing?
Ah Heh! Heh! Heh!
Ummmmmm, how come it not be boxing when Ruiz does it but it sho don be boxing when yo boy Ali don did it? Mmmmmmm?


Nady does what? Enforce rules?
Excuse a me but:

Sure, sure! Uhuh! uhhuh! Sure!

Like he enforced them in the recent Williams Vitali fight right?

Say what?

Skill?

English is obviously not your native tongue is it?
Look up the word in the dictionary and memorize its meaning. Otherwise you will continue to disgorge what the more knowledgeable on this site consider ignorance-derived drivel.



You know amigo. the more you try to act educated the more you remind me of a famous Spanish saying that goes like a so.

"El mono aunque lo vistan de seda, mono se queda."

BTW

I don't see you blaming the "refs" for not enforcing the rules in other fights. Ummmmm, why?

Also, I found a number of basic grammatical errors in your writing that I could very easily focus on. But since that is not the purpose of this forum, I won't.

"Also, I found a number of basic grammatical errors in your writing that I could very easily focus on."

Like ending a sentence with a preposition, perhaps ?

In my haste I forget to punctuate sometimes.
Want proof?
Read your own example.

Rocko,

Did you just finish taking a logic class in a high school?

In my haste I forget to punctuate sometimes.
Want proof?
Read your own example.


Why so hasty ?
Patience is a sign of intelligence.

Considering how important it is for you to appear intelligent, you'd think you'd have considered this.

Don't worry, someone out there thinks you're nice & smart.

Ruiz fans are just like any other people.
They use inductive and deductive reasoning to reach logical conclusions.

For those who might perhaps be unfamiliar with these methods:

Deductive reasoning is when you make a generalization about something and base your conclusion about something on that generalization.

Here is an example:

A longer reach provides distance fighting advantage.
Joe has the longer reach.
Joe has a distance fighting advantage.



Inductive reasoning is different in that it relies on observation of patterns. Patterns being a repetition of events. Then a generalization or conclusion is reached.

Here is an example:

The ref permitted one fighter to hit the other while the other was down.
The ref then permitted one fighter to hit the other behind the head.

The ref repeatedly warns only one fighter.

Conclusion or inductive leap:

This is biased ref.


Now this is the well-known and accepted way in which conclusions are reached in logic and in the sciences as well.


Unfortunately, when Ruiz fans use these established reasoning methods, some anti-Ruiz say that Ruiz fans are being illogical.

Instead of striving to explain the suspicious behavior that causes Ruiz fans to take notice, these Anti Ruiz fans choose to criticize them for noticing the suspicious behavior in the first place!!!!


In short, they take umbrage not really with the issues involved. They are actually taking umbrage with the principles of reasonung itself.

Which speaks volumes about the intellectual level at which some anti-Ruiz fans are functioning.


BTW

A person wishing not to be suspected must not act suspiciously.
Otherwise suspicion will arise concerning the suspicious behavior.

professor,

could I get a copy of the cliff notes on this one?

In the future, please talk down, so I can understand.

Don't worry, someone out there thinks you're nice & smart.

Would that be Ruiz?

Would that be Ruiz?

Even Ruiz is embarrassed by this joke of a human.

professor,

could I get a copy of the cliff notes on this one?

In the future, please talk down, so I can understand.


and furthermore....I flunked English in High School, so please don't make fun of my grammer. I'm very touchy about that.

Hey Rocko my man...

Explain yourself...not a history lesson or a bunch of rhetorical ****...explain? Are you a Ruiz fan? Are you a boxing fan? Are you a college professor? What is your purpose?

You make the case that Ruiz does what every other fighter does he simply gets slammed by the fans when he does it? Elaborate...

Is Ruiz really your guy and if so why? This is what this forum is about, make your case and as Jab put it earlier there are a lot better ways to make it than to go into the rant you went into in the opening post.

Your obviously a smart guy, your education is obviously up to par that I am sure of...are you a boxing guy...that Im not so sure of?

Hey Rocko my man...

Explain yourself...not a history lesson or a bunch of rhetorical ****...explain? Are you a Ruiz fan? Are you a boxing fan? Are you a college professor? What is your purpose?

You make the case that Ruiz does what every other fighter does he simply gets slammed by the fans when he does it? Elaborate...

Is Ruiz really your guy and if so why? This is what this forum is about, make your case and as Jab put it earlier there are a lot better ways to make it than to go into the rant you went into in the opening post.

Your obviously a smart guy, your education is obviously up to par that I am sure of...are you a boxing guy...that Im not so sure of?


smart?


.

I was scared that if I didn't put that in there Rocko would yell at me and make fun of me, uncover the fact that my education level is 8th gradish...

Obviously, 'ol Rocko can relate to John Ruiz. He knows what it's like to have people walking away from him, frowning & yawning.
It's just one boring slob defending anther boring slob.

scap....


You talk boxing like you have a doctorate in it...& that's all that matters in a BOXING forum.
You do so without a dictionary or thesaurus by your side, either.

scap....

a dictionary or thesaurus by your side, either.


what does a dictionary and a Dinosaur have to do with it?

my favorite one by the way is T-Rex

I am speaking clear basic conversational English.
So I cannot make it any simpler for you than I have done in my previoius explanations. If indeed you are having difficulty following my line of clear reasoning, then perhaps it is a waste of time for you to read what I am saying.

By your writing I can see that you are not totally illiterate.
Certainly not a full-fledged retard although there are borderline cases which are hard to categorize.

All I can say, actually, is that perhaps you are trying to read above your present level and this is causing the incomprehension you are constantly complaining about.

I suggest that perhaps it is better for you to be kind to yourself and spare yourself the frustration and the waste of your valuable time.

Ruiz fans are just like any other people.
They use inductive and deductive reasoning to reach logical conclusions..





If you want to prove that non-Ruiz fans fail in logic, then provide a real proof.

This proof must include actual quoted examples, not some phoney, artificial allusions (b/s) you cooked up yourself.

You should also provide a detailed explanation for each example, pointing out where the logic fails.

Let's see how good your logic is.

I am speaking clear basic conversational English.
So I cannot make it any simpler for you than I have done in my previoius explanations. If indeed you are having difficulty following my line of clear reasoning, then perhaps it is a waste of time for you to read what I am saying.

By your writing I can see that you are not totally illiterate.
Certainly not a full-fledged retard although there are borderline cases which are hard to categorize.

All I can say, actually, is that perhaps you are trying to read above your present level and this is causing the incomprehension you are constantly complaining about.

I suggest that perhaps it is better for you to be kind to yourself and spare yourself the frustration and the waste of your valuable time.

I'm so happy you view my time as valuable, Rocko. After just a few posts, I'm already convinced that you are the most impressive person I have encountered through any medium.

It makes me sad to know you won't stay here much longer. You'll quickly tire of trying to get us to understand your logic, which is genius.
You've also hit the wall as far as your boxing knowledge goes.
Yes...this IS a boxing forum, in case you forgot, oh enlightened one.

I am speaking clear basic conversational English.
So I cannot make it any simpler for you than I have done in my previoius explanations. If indeed you are having difficulty following my line of clear reasoning, then perhaps it is a waste of time for you to read what I am saying.
.


You do not have to shout every time that you write in a "clear conversational English." Let the reader judge whether you write clearly or not.

You do not have to shout every time that you write in a "clear conversational English." Let the reader judge himself whether you write clearly or not.

Oh, he's CLEARLY psychotic.

Rocko.....

You should consider writing a letter of support to the always put-upon Norman Stone.
He loves Johnny almost as much as you love Johnny......

He'll write you back. Something like...
"Johnny don't need no help from some ****sucker nerd like you. **** off."

Using ad hominem now huh?
Ummm, OK.

Professor?
I see you never attended college.
No thanx.
I don't qualify in the buffoonery department.
You might though.


Who would want to watch something they don't like?
I don't know?
Since you are one of the self-proclaimed weirdoes that does that, you tell me.

Sigh!
As I said before, don't like?
Don't watch.

Too profound for you?

Not boxing?
Ah Heh! Heh! Heh!
Ummmmmm, how come it not be boxing when Ruiz does it but it sho don be boxing when yo boy Ali don did it? Mmmmmmm?


Nady does what? Enforce rules?
Excuse a me but:

Sure, sure! Uhuh! uhhuh! Sure!

Like he enforced them in the recent Williams Vitali fight right?

Say what?

Skill?

English is obviously not your native tongue is it?
Look up the word in the dictionary and memorize its meaning. Otherwise you will continue to disgorge what the more knowledgeable on this site consider ignorance-derived drivel.



You know amigo. the more you try to act educated the more you remind me of a famous Spanish saying that goes like a so.

"El mono aunque lo vistan de seda, mono se queda."

BTW

I don't see you blaming the "refs" for not enforcing the rules in other fights. Ummmmm, why?

Also, I found a number of basic grammatical errors in your writing that I could very easily focus on. But since that is not the purpose of this forum, I won't.

I am speaking clear basic conversational English.
So I cannot make it any simpler for you than I have done in my previoius explanations. If indeed you are having difficulty following my line of clear reasoning, then perhaps it is a waste of time for you to read what I am saying.

By your writing I can see that you are not totally illiterate.
Certainly not a full-fledged retard although there are borderline cases which are hard to categorize.

All I can say, actually, is that perhaps you are trying to read above your present level and this is causing the incomprehension you are constantly complaining about.

I suggest that perhaps it is better for you to be kind to yourself and spare yourself the frustration and the waste of your valuable time.


I don't understand :confused:

Using ad hominem now huh?
Ummm, OK.

Professor?
I see you never attended college.
No thanx.
I don't qualify in the buffoonery department.
You might though.


Who would want to watch something they don't like?
I don't know?
Since you are one of the self-proclaimed weirdoes that does that, you tell me.

Sigh!
As I said before, don't like?
Don't watch.

Too profound for you?

Not boxing?
Ah Heh! Heh! Heh!
Ummmmmm, how come it not be boxing when Ruiz does it but it sho don be boxing when yo boy Ali don did it? Mmmmmmm?


Nady does what? Enforce rules?
Excuse a me but:

Sure, sure! Uhuh! uhhuh! Sure!

Like he enforced them in the recent Williams Vitali fight right?

Say what?

Skill?

English is obviously not your native tongue is it?
Look up the word in the dictionary and memorize its meaning. Otherwise you will continue to disgorge what the more knowledgeable on this site consider ignorance-derived drivel.



You know amigo. the more you try to act educated the more you remind me of a famous Spanish saying that goes like a so.

"El mono aunque lo vistan de seda, mono se queda."

BTW

I don't see you blaming the "refs" for not enforcing the rules in other fights. Ummmmm, why?

Also, I found a number of basic grammatical errors in your writing that I could very easily focus on. But since that is not the purpose of this forum, I won't.


When I read this - THE FIRST TIME - I thought about how much of a rambling psychotic you are, Rocko.

Now that you've repeated it, I really hope you are never around children. You are dangerous.

Using ad hominem now huh?

Also, I found a number of basic grammatical errors in your writing that I could very easily focus on. But since that is not the purpose of this forum, I won't.


You are the one who started the personal (ad hominem) attack on non-Ruiz fans.

Your arguments should focus on the analysis of logic and not on the analysis of grammar.

Obviously you either know absolutely NOTHING about boxing or else are handicapped in a way that I am not fully aware of yet.

Otherwise you would not make such an ignorant statement as you just have.

Evertyone even minimally familiarized with boxing knows that blocking and slipping are legal tactics whie the tactics that your boy Vitalis was using are not.

Holding behind the neck and pulling a fighter down so that his legal punches go low is not.

Neither is trying to hit a fighter who is clearly down as Vitali tried to do legal.

Neither is hitting behind the head and pushing as Vitali did.

Why such a big fella like Vitali who is clearly outclassing his opponent thinks he needs to fight dirty is waayyy beyond me.

But even more disturbing is why a ref would think that such a big fella who is clearly outclassing his opponent needs extra ref assistance.

BTW

If you don't agree thatr what I am pointing out were violations then you agree with everything Vitali and Nady did.

Actually, that you defend such clear violations by a Vitali and a Nady is not unexpected.

To me it comes across as the "My-country-right-or-wrong but-my-country" bs in a fight ring microcosm.

Also, your last statement is nonsensical.

Obviously you either know absolutely NOTHING about boxing or else are handicapped in a way that I am not fully aware of yet.

Otherwise you would not make such an ignorant statement as you just have.

Evertyone even minimally familiarized with boxing knows that blocking and slipping are legal tactics whie the tactics that your boy Vitalis was using are not.

Holding behind the neck and pulling a fighter down so that his legal punches go low is not.

Neither is trying to hit a fighter who is clearly down as Vitali tried to do legal.

Neither is hitting behind the head and pushing as Vitali did.

Why such a big fella like Vitali who is clearly outclassing his opponent thinks he needs to fight dirty is waayyy beyond me.

But even more disturbing is why a ref would think that such a big fella who is clearly outclassing his opponent needs extra ref assistance.

BTW

If you don't agree thatr what I am pointing out were violations then you agree with everything Vitali and Nady did.

Actually, that you defend such clear violations by a Vitali and a Nady is not unexpected.

To me it comes across as the "My-country-right-or-wrong but-my-country" bs in a fight ring microcosm.

Also, your last statement is nonsensical.



Don't proclaim this, prove this.

You clearly persist with your ugly personal attack.

Please provide actual quoted examples and not your made up assumptions about what people think.

Don't I know you?

My! My! My!
Aren't we a bit feisty today!
Let me clarify the issue in an effort to bring you back to reality assuming that you have not gone too far over the edge and are still capable of at least a little basic cogent reasoning.

Right now, my friend, you are at a Ruiz fan forum.

I will assume that you know this and knew it when you decided to participate here. After all, it is prominently posted and anyone coming here can readily see that this forum has the Ruiz name prominently displayed for all visitors to clearly see.

Now, since this is a Ruiz forum specifically set up for Ruiz fans, what should you expect to find? Hmmmmm? Anti Ruiz comments predominating? Is that what you would expect to find on any other fighter's forum? Come now, be honest with yourself and give this some thought compadre.

In any case, perhaps I should clear things up a bit for you so that the mental fog caused by your anti-Ruiz rage can lift a little and you can see perhaps a glimmer of some much-needed light.

Personally, I refrain from participating in fan forums of boxers that I strongly disapprove of. You see, common decency requires that I refrain from going to that site with the sole purpose of degrading boxer. Why? Well, because at that site I will meet people who strongly disagree with my strong dislike and will contradict what I say.

Now, here is where insanity might come in if we are not careful.

Let's suppose that I did visit such a site and I ran across positive comments about that boxer from that boxer's fans?
and I began taking offense and began demanding that such comments not be made.

Then, of course, if I am unceremoniously categorized as a certifiable lunatic, I couldn't blame the person for thinking such a thing. After all, normal people expect these things at a fan site. Normal people either don't visit such sites if they don't wish to see such normal things, or else they put up or shut up.

What normal people refrain from doing, bon vivant, is going to Larry Holmes sites, for instance, for the specific purpose of badmouthing Larry Holmes in front of Larry Holmes fans and then indecently demanding that Larry Holmes fans not defend Larry Holmes but that they keep their godamn mouths shut at the Larry Holmes site.

That's what normal people don't do.
Hope that helps.

BTW

Just because a person uses cogent reasoning doesn't mean that the person is claiming to be a logician.



Also, please speak English.
Their is no such adverb as "vomitous".

And no, I never got a "D"
I aced all my classes.
Sorry!

My! My! My!
Aren't we a bit feisty today!

In any case, perhaps I should clear things up a bit for you so that the mental fog caused by your anti-Ruiz rage can lift a little and you can see perhaps a glimmer of some much-needed light.


Now, here is where insanity might come in if we are not careful.


Then, of course, if I am unceremoniously categorized as a certifiable lunatic, I couldn't blame the person for thinking such a thing.


BTW

Just because a person uses cogent reasoning doesn't mean that the person is claiming to be a logician.




Your reasoning boils down to an ugly personal attack littered with wordy allusions.

Your reasoning is therefore not cogent by any means.

You have been here before. Who are you? Are you "Dr" Cynical?









...
(ha-ha, it is fun; I will come back here in couple of hours)

There is a Larry Holmes site, included in that site are forums for Larry Holmes...please give me the url to this...if it exists.

My! My! My!
Aren't we a bit feisty today!
Let me clarify the issue in an effort to bring you back to reality assuming that you have not gone too far over the edge and are still capable of at least a little basic cogent reasoning.

Right now, my friend, you are at a Ruiz fan forum.

I will assume that you know this and knew it when you decided to participate here. After all, it is prominently posted and anyone coming here can readily see that this forum has the Ruiz name prominently displayed for all visitors to clearly see.

Now, since this is a Ruiz forum specifically set up for Ruiz fans, what should you expect to find? Hmmmmm? Anti Ruiz comments predominating? Is that what you would expect to find on any other fighter's forum? Come now, be honest with yourself and give this some thought compadre.

In any case, perhaps I should clear things up a bit for you so that the mental fog caused by your anti-Ruiz rage can lift a little and you can see perhaps a glimmer of some much-needed light.

Personally, I refrain from participating in fan forums of boxers that I strongly disapprove of. You see, common decency requires that I refrain from going to that site with the sole purpose of degrading boxer. Why? Well, because at that site I will meet people who strongly disagree with my strong dislike and will contradict what I say.

Now, here is where insanity might come in if we are not careful.

Let's suppose that I did visit such a site and I ran across positive comments about that boxer from that boxer's fans?
and I began taking offense and began demanding that such comments not be made.

Then, of course, if I am unceremoniously categorized as a certifiable lunatic, I couldn't blame the person for thinking such a thing. After all, normal people expect these things at a fan site. Normal people either don't visit such sites if they don't wish to see such normal things, or else they put up or shut up.

What normal people refrain from doing, bon vivant, is going to Larry Holmes sites, for instance, for the specific purpose of badmouthing Larry Holmes in front of Larry Holmes fans and then indecently demanding that Larry Holmes fans not defend Larry Holmes but that they keep their godamn mouths shut at the Larry Holmes site.

That's what normal people don't do.
Hope that helps.

BTW

Just because a person uses cogent reasoning doesn't mean that the person is claiming to be a logician.



Also, please speak English.
Their is no such adverb as "vomitous".

And no, I never got a "D"
I aced all my classes.
Sorry!

Your putting us on right? Please say you are...please restore my faith in humanity. :confused: You can't really think you can come on a boxing site and convince the posters that John Ruiz is an unrecognized great in the boxing world. Anyone that knows boxing realises that Ruiz survives in a weak division by slobbering all over his opponents and sneeking in ugly right hands. The only good thing I can say about Ruiz is that he at least comes to slobber....er fight, and he stays in shape.

Oh, you may find grammatical errors in my paragraph. I don't give a ****. ;) I do hold a degree from a University and it dosen't mean **** here. Your being a bit pompous, don't ya think? Oh, you most likely don't, sorry. :D

what does a dictionary and a Dinosaur have to do with it?

my favorite one by the way is T-Rex

you're truely a trip!!!

I had decided not to post at this site any longer.
But then came across your ridiculous statements.
So I will temporarily delay my exit to respond briefly.

About your homo accusations?
Sorry to disappoint you.
I prefer women.

My view on queers?


Well, I won't be politically correct this time.
I will be honest.
I consider queers an abomination.

I am what?
A fan of Ruiz?
I suppose I am a fan of Wiliams too simply because I pointed out the obvious?

That's ridiculous!

Actually, I don't really like Ruiz's manner of fighting.
So I am not a fan of Ruiz per se.
So you are confusing two different things here.
Fandom for a person and fandom for a concept.
What concept?


Justice!

Still unable to understand due to too much stagnant water on the brain?

Well, then here is what you need to do.

Get a basic education via remedial classes.
If you mannage to pass those classes without seriously injuring yourselves, then come back a read my explanation again.

Ruiz fans are just like any other people.
They use inductive and deductive reasoning to reach logical conclusions.

Pardon me ma'm for saying so, but ruiz fans are really not like other people. infact, they, as you have proven here with your thread, are really nothing like the rest of the boxing world fans.

For those who might perhaps be unfamiliar with these methods:

Deductive reasoning is when you make a generalization about something and base your conclusion about something on that generalization.

Here is an example:

A longer reach provides distance fighting advantage.
Joe has the longer reach.
Joe has a distance fighting advantage.


Inductive reasoning is different in that it relies on observation of patterns. Patterns being a repetition of events. Then a generalization or conclusion is reached.

Here is an example:

The ref permitted one fighter to hit the other while the other was down.
The ref then permitted one fighter to hit the other behind the head.

The ref repeatedly warns only one fighter.

Conclusion or inductive leap:

This is biased ref.

Oh sure we are quite aware of these methods of reasoning. let me give you my examples:

Deductive reasoning

A shorter reach provides a distance fighting advantage.
John ruiz has the shorter reach, and penis.
John has a distance fight disadvantage. (as well as a sexual disadvantage)

or

Jay Nady does not permit holding and hitting at the same time.(it's actually a rule)
John Ruiz holds and hits.
John Ruiz is a dirty fighter and as long as Jay nady is Ref john stands no chance.

Inductive reasoning

John Ruiz holds and hits.
John Ruiz hugs and hits.
John Ruiz does not allow action

Conclusion or inductive leap:

John ARuiz is a boring and dirty fighter.


Now this is the well-known and accepted way in which conclusions are reached in logic and in the sciences as well.


Unfortunately, when Ruiz fans use these established reasoning methods, some anti-Ruiz say that Ruiz fans are being illogical.

The reason is that ruiz fans see what they want to see.

Instead of striving to explain the suspicious behavior that causes Ruiz fans to take notice, these Anti Ruiz fans choose to criticize them for noticing the suspicious behavior in the first place!!!!

I hope I cleared up what non-ruiz fans are seeing. If you ask me i think it is suspicious that other refs aloow john ruiz to continue to break the rules.

In short, they take umbrage not really with the issues involved. They are actually taking umbrage with the principles of reasonung itself.

Which speaks volumes about the intellectual level at which some anti-Ruiz fans are functioning.

I personally take no offense what-so-ever. John Ruiz is fighting in an era where there are 2nd tier fighters anyway. Its not that the others are taking offense to the "principles of reasoning", its more the fact that ruiz fans are blinded by the love of thier fighter. They do not see the whole picture. Therefore the "principles of reasoning" which Ruiz fans base thier OPINIONS on have no ground to stand on.[/QUOTE]


BTW

A person wishing not to be suspected must not act suspiciously.
Otherwise suspicion will arise concerning the suspicious behavior.


BTW

If a person were to actually know boxing and its rules, they would have no reason to be suspicious of a ref actually enforcing the rules.

I had decided not to post at this site any longer.


please don't go, you have inspired me to go back to night school and get my GED. In the short period of time that you have graced us, I feel that I've learned so much from you. Your superior intellect and grammer skills are truly inspirational.

please don't go, you have inspired me to go back to night school and get my GED. In the short period of time that you have graced us, I feel that I've learned so much from you. Your superior intellect and grammer skills are truly inspirational.


You guys are killing me. To funny, but very true.

not to get political here but ****in a Im glad he's a republican...I was scared to death that he was some smart ass liberal, turns out he's just another *** hatin conservative...I was worried there for a minute.

Pardon me ma'm for saying so, but ruiz fans are really not like other people. infact, they, as you have proven here with your thread, are really nothing like the rest of the boxing world fans.



Oh sure we are quite aware of these methods of reasoning. let me give you my examples:

Deductive reasoning

A shorter reach provides a distance fighting advantage.
John ruiz has the shorter reach, and penis.
John has a distance fight disadvantage. (as well as a sexual disadvantage)

or

Jay Nady does not permit holding and hitting at the same time.(it's actually a rule)
John Ruiz holds and hits.
John Ruiz is a dirty fighter and as long as Jay nady is Ref john stands no chance.

Inductive reasoning

John Ruiz holds and hits.
John Ruiz hugs and hits.
John Ruiz does not allow action

Conclusion or inductive leap:

John ARuiz is a boring and dirty fighter.




The reason is that ruiz fans see what they want to see.



I hope I cleared up what non-ruiz fans are seeing. If you ask me i think it is suspicious that other refs aloow john ruiz to continue to break the rules.



I personally take no offense what-so-ever. John Ruiz is fighting in an era where there are 2nd tier fighters anyway. Its not that the others are taking offense to the "principles of reasoning", its more the fact that ruiz fans are blinded by the love of thier fighter. They do not see the whole picture. Therefore the "principles of reasoning" which Ruiz fans base thier OPINIONS on have no ground to stand on.





BTW

If a person were to actually know boxing and its rules, would have no reason to be suspicious of a ref actually enforcing the rules.[/QUOTE]

And this, this is just way to true. I will have to send Karma your way.

So you would have me believe that Ruiz is so strong that he prevents fighters from moving away as he moves in? Since when does a fighter's moving toward you prevent you for moving away in order to maintain the right punching distance? Since Ruiz began moving forward?

No amigo.
What is happening is not Ruiz forcing your boys into clinches. Your boys are too big and strong to be forced in that way.

What's really happening compadre Pedro Juan, is that Ruiz lands a punch, hurts one of your boys, and your boys take refuge under Ruiz's sobaco in order to rest.

That's what's really going on.
And if you doubt it look art the fights and see for yourself that your boys are cooperating in winding up in clinches in order to recover from just getting hit.

As a matter of fact, Rahman is a prime example.
Look at the way he cooperated and instead of side stepping or moving backwards he repeatedly went right along and sought the safety of the clinch. Simply put, it benefited him to go right along.

That's the same reason why opponents would repeatedly waltz with Tysone in the middle of the ring. To recover.

Obviously you either know absolutely NOTHING about boxing or else are handicapped in a way that I am not fully aware of yet.

Otherwise you would not make such an ignorant statement as you just have.

Evertyone even minimally familiarized with boxing knows that blocking and slipping are legal tactics whie the tactics that your boy Vitalis was using are not.

Holding behind the neck and pulling a fighter down so that his legal punches go low is not.

Neither is trying to hit a fighter who is clearly down as Vitali tried to do legal.

Neither is hitting behind the head and pushing as Vitali did.

Why such a big fella like Vitali who is clearly outclassing his opponent thinks he needs to fight dirty is waayyy beyond me.

But even more disturbing is why a ref would think that such a big fella who is clearly outclassing his opponent needs extra ref assistance.

BTW

If you don't agree thatr what I am pointing out were violations then you agree with everything Vitali and Nady did.

Actually, that you defend such clear violations by a Vitali and a Nady is not unexpected.

To me it comes across as the "My-country-right-or-wrong but-my-country" bs in a fight ring microcosm.

Also, your last statement is nonsensical.


OK smart guy are you really trying to rag on Klitchko for holding and hitting behind the head all while you are defending Ruiz? Cause if so then my first reaction to your bull**** is to laugh at you hysterically and call you a ****tard! If not then..........Ah hell your a ****tard!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So you would have me believe that Ruiz is so strong that he prevents fighters from moving away as he moves in? Since when does a fighter's moving toward you prevent you for moving away in order to maintain the right punching distance? Since Ruiz began moving forward?

No amigo.
What is happening is not Ruiz forcing your boys into clinches. Your boys are too big and strong to be forced in that way.

What's really happening compadre Pedro Juan, is that Ruiz lands a punch, hurts one of your boys, and your boys take refuge under Ruiz's sobaco in order to rest.

That's what's really going on.
And if you doubt it look art the fights and see for yourself that your boys are cooperating in winding up in clinches in order to recover from just getting hit.

As a matter of fact, Rahman is a prime example.
Look at the way he cooperated and instead of side stepping or moving backwards he repeatedly went right along and sought the safety of the clinch. Simply put, it benefited him to go right along.

That's the same reason why opponents would repeatedly waltz with Tysone in the middle of the ring. To recover.


Ruiz inspires luv.

Ruiz inspires luv in most boxers.

They just luv to hugg with Ruiz.

The only uninspired were Tua and RJJ.

Tua KOed Ruiz for the luv-making attempt.

RJJ ran away from Ruiz's luv.

Those fools, they didn't know what they were missing:

Ruiz is the greatest luv-making boxer!

So you would have me believe that Ruiz is so strong that he prevents fighters from moving away as he moves in? Since when does a fighter's moving toward you prevent you for moving away in order to maintain the right punching distance? Since Ruiz began moving forward?

No amigo.
What is happening is not Ruiz forcing your boys into clinches. Your boys are too big and strong to be forced in that way.

What's really happening compadre Pedro Juan, is that Ruiz lands a punch, hurts one of your boys, and your boys take refuge under Ruiz's sobaco in order to rest.

That's what's really going on.
And if you doubt it look art the fights and see for yourself that your boys are cooperating in winding up in clinches in order to recover from just getting hit.

As a matter of fact, Rahman is a prime example.
Look at the way he cooperated and instead of side stepping or moving backwards he repeatedly went right along and sought the safety of the clinch. Simply put, it benefited him to go right along.

That's the same reason why opponents would repeatedly waltz with Tysone in the middle of the ring. To recover.


I'm not really too sure who you are speaking to but I'll respond to you.

I have no doubts that John Ruiz has the power to hurt someone. However, I happen to have quite a few of his fights recorded. He does not hurt his opponent then clinch. If I come at you slinging fists then I could get close enough to grab and hug you like I wanted to sword fight. That has nothing to do with hurting anyone. In case you haven't noticed clinches happen in most all fights. Somehow Johnny is allowed to hug a little more and a little longer than any other fighter I have seen.

I used to like Ruiz. I wanted him to win in the early part of his career. But now i can't stand to watch him fight. I think John is smart for fighting the way he does because it wins fights for him. That is when the ref allows the hugfest to go on.

Jay Nady didn't do anything wrong by not letting ruiz hug and hold. He is consistant with that in every fight. It is a rule. I was actually pissed at Nady during that fight because i wanted Ruiz to win and Nady wouldn't let John hold and hit. Now that I am not blinded by being a fan of Ruiz, I understand. Thier was no bias from Nady. He was just doing his job the way it is supposed to be done.

Rocko you don't seem to now much about boxing and this is a boxing forum. No one here is impressed by your "clear conversational English" and no one wants you here. Please go to this forum instead: www.able2know.com/forums
someone there might be impressed by you, altought i doubt it.
By the way, my native language is not English.

Below are examples of how this biased thinking has been directed at Ruiz by anti-Ruiz fans..


There is a certain tendency among die-hard anti Ruiz fans to continually disparage him for getting quickly knocked out by Tua. Presumably, such a quick knockout proves conclusively that a boxer cannot qualify for greatness. However, these are the very anti-Ruiz die-hard fans who would swear by their mothers' graves that Louise, who was knocked out twice by fighters who hit much softer than Tua is one of the all-time greats. They also will go on to extoll such all time greats as Frazier, knocked out by Foreman twice and TKOD by Ali, Wallcott, knocked out by Marciano twice, Duran, knocked out by Hearns, and Joe Lewis, knocked out by Max Schmeling on June 19, 1936 and later on by Marciano. All these they praise for having been great. No mention all is made about the knockouts tarnishing their record. Even the hit-the-canvass-champ of all time, Floyed Patterson is called great and his many ridiculous trips the canvass aren't a factor affecting his so-called greatness.




The style department is another double-standard area. Anti Ruiz fans habitually wax melodic about how Ruiz clinches, ties up, and in general doesn't permit his opponents to box. However, their aversion to clinching never prevents these same fans from calling Ali great. True, Ali, was a great boxer, nevertheless any honest viewer of his fights must admit that he resorted to cupping behind the neck and clinching. His fight against Chuvalo, is a prime example. Hit cup behind the neck to prevent counter punches ad infinitum. Against Frazier in Manila the same tactics were used. No protest from the fans and no points deducted. Ruiz does it, and the Nady-like scowls, screams, and hisses from offended irate fans can be heard for miles.


Then there is the punching power issue. The Ruiz-can't-punch-his-way-out-of-a- paper-bag shpiel. Never mind the long list of early KOs and TKOs. Never mind that he floored a physically fit Johnson twice. Never mind that Ruiz managed to put iron-jawed Holy on the canvass and would have won by knockout if Holy had not resorted to wrestling, grabbing, in order not to fall. Never mind that other more vaunted fighters had failed to do what Ruiz did. These people must needs believe that Ruiz can't punch despite the overwhelming evidence tothe contrary.



Then there is the low blows department that I mentioned earlier. I have repeatedly watched fights where boxers have gone down from low blows and the usual decent commentator response is: "Well, that is understandable! Getting hit low hurts like hell! The cup moves so the low doesn't have to be directly on the groin. Let the man take his time to recuperate. Wonder if he will be able to continue as before after this. Such a shot takes alot out of a fighter!" Ruiz gets hit low and it's: "He's faking it! He's milking this for all it's worth! That's an overreaction That wasn't really that low! The ref is letting him slide! He is taking too long to rest! He's trying to get hit low to force disqualification!" And other such emotionally-charged and irrational comments.

As a fan one is forced to wonder what motivates this type of seemingly out-of-touch-with-reality mentality. It can't be because Ruiz is a foreigner could it? After all, he is an American citizen raised in Massachusetts. It can't be because he's ethnically a Puerto Rican--right? After all, they too are born as USA citizens and have fought and spilled their blood and sacrificed their lives in all the wars started or participated in by the USA--from W.W.I To W.W.II to Korea, to Vietnam, to the Gulf War--right? One wonders about this since it stirs the curiosity of any fan who is not blind to injustice in whatever guise it might happen to appear.



One also wonders just how far down the chronological line this bias will continue to fester. Will its stench still permeate the halls of boxing fandom if Ruiz unifies the belts? Would it have ceased if he had already unified? Or would the same putrid, attitude have prevailed despite the unification. Considering the deeply entrenched, malignant,
tendencies toward bias that I have witnessed ever since Ruiz "dared" to win part of the HW belt, I believe that it would.

Your my idol Rocko, now get the **** out of here!

I'll leave if the moderators tell me to leave, thank you.

Below are examples of how this biased thinking has been directed at Ruiz by anti-Ruiz fans..


There is a certain tendency among die-hard anti Ruiz fans to continually disparage him for getting quickly knocked out by Tua. Presumably, such a quick knockout proves conclusively that a boxer cannot qualify for greatness. However, these are the very anti-Ruiz die-hard fans who would swear by their mothers' graves that Louise, who was knocked out twice by fighters who hit much softer than Tua is one of the all-time greats. They also will go on to extoll such all time greats as Frazier, knocked out by Foreman twice and TKOD by Ali, Wallcott, knocked out by Marciano twice, Duran, knocked out by Hearns, and Joe Lewis, knocked out by Max Schmeling on June 19, 1936 and later on by Marciano. All these they praise for having been great. No mention all is made about the knockouts tarnishing their record. Even the hit-the-canvass-champ of all time, Floyed Patterson is called great and his many ridiculous trips the canvass aren't a factor affecting his so-called greatness.




The style department is another double-standard area. Anti Ruiz fans habitually wax melodic about how Ruiz clinches, ties up, and in general doesn't permit his opponents to box. However, their aversion to clinching never prevents these same fans from calling Ali great. True, Ali, was a great boxer, nevertheless any honest viewer of his fights must admit that he resorted to cupping behind the neck and clinching. His fight against Chuvalo, is a prime example. Hit cup behind the neck to prevent counter punches ad infinitum. Against Frazier in Manila the same tactics were used. No protest from the fans and no points deducted. Ruiz does it, and the Nady-like scowls, screams, and hisses from offended irate fans can be heard for miles.


Then there is the punching power issue. The Ruiz-can't-punch-his-way-out-of-a- paper-bag shpiel. Never mind the long list of early KOs and TKOs. Never mind that he floored a physically fit Johnson twice. Never mind that Ruiz managed to put iron-jawed Holy on the canvass and would have won by knockout if Holy had not resorted to wrestling, grabbing, in order not to fall. Never mind that other more vaunted fighters had failed to do what Ruiz did. These people must needs believe that Ruiz can't punch despite the overwhelming evidence tothe contrary.



Then there is the low blows department that I mentioned earlier. I have repeatedly watched fights where boxers have gone down from low blows and the usual decent commentator response is: "Well, that is understandable! Getting hit low hurts like hell! The cup moves so the low doesn't have to be directly on the groin. Let the man take his time to recuperate. Wonder if he will be able to continue as before after this. Such a shot takes alot out of a fighter!" Ruiz gets hit low and it's: "He's faking it! He's milking this for all it's worth! That's an overreaction That wasn't really that low! The ref is letting him slide! He is taking too long to rest! He's trying to get hit low to force disqualification!" And other such emotionally-charged and irrational comments.

As a fan one is forced to wonder what motivates this type of seemingly out-of-touch-with-reality mentality. It can't be because Ruiz is a foreigner could it? After all, he is an American citizen raised in Massachusetts. It can't be because he's ethnically a Puerto Rican--right? After all, they too are born as USA citizens and have fought and spilled their blood and sacrificed their lives in all the wars started or participated in by the USA--from W.W.I To W.W.II to Korea, to Vietnam, to the Gulf War--right? One wonders about this since it stirs the curiosity of any fan who is not blind to injustice in whatever guise it might happen to appear.



One also wonders just how far down the chronological line this bias will continue to fester. Will its stench still permeate the halls of boxing fandom if Ruiz unifies the belts? Would it have ceased if he had already unified? Or would the same putrid, attitude have prevailed despite the unification. Considering the deeply entrenched, malignant,
tendencies toward bias that I have witnessed ever since Ruiz "dared" to win part of the HW belt, I believe that it would.


You have convinced me !

Ruiz is modern Ali !

I am now a Hug fan of Ruiz !

I say this one more time:

Rocko you don't seem to now much about boxing and this is a boxing forum. No one here is impressed by your "clear conversational English" and no one wants you here. Please go to this forum instead: www.able2know.com/forums
someone there might be impressed by you, altought i doubt it.

Please just leave even the wrestling gaylord Ruiz would be ashamed of you. By the way, my native language is not English.

This is an accusation routinely leveled against Ruiz.
That he doesn't box but merely wrestles his way to victories.


But regardless of the conviction with which such accusations are repeated--just how much sense does it make?

Not much if you really know how boxing matches are scored. Below I will list the factors that the judges consider when they give points to boxers.

1. Power punches connected.
2. Ring generalship
3. Overall punches scored
4. Who is controlling the action
5. Knockdowns

Lets take the first one first.

Simply stated you cannot pitter patter your way to a win. A boxer pitter pattering will not be given the credit that his opponent who is landing the big shots will.

Why?

Well, because the reason that boxers pitter patter is because they fear to commit. That's because commitment opens them up for counter punching. Pitter pattering is quicker and safer. But it also makes a bad impression.

The second one, Ring Generalship is who is controlling the action. Is the boxer in control, or is he merely reacting ineffectively or barely surviving what his opponent does. Is he fleeing due to fear?

Or is he circling to find the angles? If it is due to fear and ineffectual, judges will tend to look more favorably on the boxer taking the initiative. That's why Delahoya lost to Trinidad.

Knockdowns of course are worth more than regular punches. A boxer might have lost the rest of the round but a knockdown evens the score or might put him ahead.

Now, what does all this have to do with Ruiz?
Well, plenty. There is nowhere any stipulation saying that boxers get points for wrestling. So when the scores are tallied, what is being counted or considered are the points enumerated above.

Nothing more.

This is an accusation routinely leveled against Ruiz.
That he doesn't box but merely wrestles his way to victories.


But regardless of the conviction with which such accusations are repeated--just how much sense does it make?

Not much if you really know how boxing matches are scored. Below I will list the factors that the judges consider when they give points to boxers.

1. Power punches connected.
2. Ring generalship
3. Overall punches scored
4. Who is controlling the action
5. Knockdowns

Lets take the first one first.

Simply stated you cannot pitter patter your way to a win. A boxer pitter pattering will not be given the credit that his opponent who is landing the big shots will.

Why?

Well, because the reason that boxers pitter patter is because they fear to commit. That's because commitment opens them up for counter punching. Pitter pattering is quicker and safer. But it also makes a bad impression.

The second one, Ring Generalship is who is controlling the action. Is the boxer in control, or is he merely reacting ineffectively or barely surviving what his opponent does. Is he fleeing due to fear?

Or is he circling to find the angles? If it is due to fear and ineffectual, judges will tend to look more favorably on the boxer taking the initiative. That's why Delahoya lost to Trinidad.

Knockdowns of course are worth more than regular punches. A boxer might have lost the rest of the round but a knockdown evens the score or might put him ahead.

Now, what does all this have to do with Ruiz?
Well, plenty. There is nowhere any stipulation saying that boxers get points for wrestling. So when the scores are tallied, what is being counted or considered are the points enumerated above.

Nothing more.



Neils, is this you ? Welcome back. :D

1. Power punches connected.
2. Ring generalship
3. Overall punches scored
4. Who is controlling the action
5. Knockdowns



Consider Ruis vs Golota:

Golota won

1)see below, 2) opinion, 3) see below, 4) boxing action, 5) Scored 2 knockdowns.

Golota may not have controlled the wrestling action, and so he
may not get the wrestling version of 4).

Ruiz was down twice in the 2nd. Ruiz had one point deducted for hitting after the Break.



How the heck did Ruiz get the decision?!


--------------------------------------------------------
Total Punches Landed / Thrown

Round
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
Ruiz 14/53 10/29 6/24 10/33 7/35 4/22 11/31 8/27 9/35 16/41 7/31 19/45
Golota 8/32 16/46 12/32 13/21 13/30 12/32 20/31 11/37 13/30 12/36 9/27 13/33


Power Punches Landed / Thrown

Round
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
Ruiz 8/30 7/21 2/12 8/20 4/21 3/14 5/15 7/17 7/26 13/27 5/18 15/30
Golota 5/22 13/36 7/15 8/12 7/19 8/16 7/13 8/28 7/20 9/22 6/16 8/15

Please name me a decent fighter that your beloved John Ruiz has one of his "numerous early ko's/tko's" against, cause all that I can find is a bunch of nobody tomato cans with some pitiful records! I will take five of his 1st rd. ko/tko victims and now add up their records........................................... .....................
How about 5 wins and 38 losses between FIVE guys and to make matters worse one guy has three of those wins. Add this up and you come to a conclusion that Ruiz does not have ko power unless he fights bums!!!!!!!

This guy talks exactly like my HALF brother who is suffering from mental illness! He has paranoid schitzophrenia! I think thats how you spell it! He is just scary to be around and he holds conversations with the voices right in front of everyone! He always is argumentive and this is exactly how he sounds! He argues the opposite just to argue even when he is absolutely wrong! Just like ****o! ****o scares me too!

This is an accusation routinely leveled against Ruiz.
That he doesn't box but merely wrestles his way to victories.


But regardless of the conviction with which such accusations are repeated--just how much sense does it make?

Not much if you really know how boxing matches are scored. Below I will list the factors that the judges consider when they give points to boxers.

1. Power punches connected.
2. Ring generalship
3. Overall punches scored
4. Who is controlling the action
5. Knockdowns

Lets take the first one first.

Simply stated you cannot pitter patter your way to a win. A boxer pitter pattering will not be given the credit that his opponent who is landing the big shots will.

Why?

Well, because the reason that boxers pitter patter is because they fear to commit. That's because commitment opens them up for counter punching. Pitter pattering is quicker and safer. But it also makes a bad impression.

The second one, Ring Generalship is who is controlling the action. Is the boxer in control, or is he merely reacting ineffectively or barely surviving what his opponent does. Is he fleeing due to fear?

Or is he circling to find the angles? If it is due to fear and ineffectual, judges will tend to look more favorably on the boxer taking the initiative. That's why Delahoya lost to Trinidad.

Knockdowns of course are worth more than regular punches. A boxer might have lost the rest of the round but a knockdown evens the score or might put him ahead.

Now, what does all this have to do with Ruiz?
Well, plenty. There is nowhere any stipulation saying that boxers get points for wrestling. So when the scores are tallied, what is being counted or considered are the points enumerated above.

Nothing more.

i was just wondering who actually scores using your way of scoring. to dispell any confusion here are the actual factors in scoring a boxing match.

1. clean punches landed
2. ring generalship
3. effective aggressiveness
4. defense

the knockdowns are obvious.

So you would have me believe that Ruiz is so strong that he prevents fighters from moving away as he moves in? Since when does a fighter's moving toward you prevent you for moving away in order to maintain the right punching distance? Since Ruiz began moving forward?

No amigo.
What is happening is not Ruiz forcing your boys into clinches. Your boys are too big and strong to be forced in that way.

What's really happening compadre Pedro Juan, is that Ruiz lands a punch, hurts one of your boys, and your boys take refuge under Ruiz's sobaco in order to rest.

That's what's really going on.
And if you doubt it look art the fights and see for yourself that your boys are cooperating in winding up in clinches in order to recover from just getting hit.

As a matter of fact, Rahman is a prime example.
Look at the way he cooperated and instead of side stepping or moving backwards he repeatedly went right along and sought the safety of the clinch. Simply put, it benefited him to go right along.

That's the same reason why opponents would repeatedly waltz with Tysone in the middle of the ring. To recover.

ok then explain to me how john ruiz forced frez to clinch with punches when there were more clinches than punches in the fight.

4/17/04 KO 11 FRES OQUENDO (first heavyweight championship fight between two Hispanics, a painfully boring event. How bad was it? Ruiz had more clinches than landed punches. He clinched 108 times and landed 92 punches.

right it was the invisible punches. cause john is so fast noone saw them right? it should also be noted that this fight set a record for the amount of time spent in a clinch.

I wonder who the guy named Rocko is.

I think it is Neils.

Neils is the only other fan of Ruiz I know here. ha-ha :D

I wonder who the guy named Rocko is.

I think it is Neils.

Neils is the only other fan of Ruiz I know here. ha-ha :D

I thought you made that Rocko fellow up. Now I see who he is.

I placed Ruiz at the top of the heavyweights like I'd put Patricia at the top of the "Most talented Arquette" list; it's more by default than anything else.

I thought Ruiz beat Golota and was ahead of Oquendo and beat Rahman convincingly and those 3 opponents I think are better than the last 3 Vitali faced. That's why I had him at the top of the list (well, it was last 2 opponents when I made the list, but Vitali managed to schedule another punching bag for his first defense).

I thought you made that Rocko fellow up. Now I see who he is.

I placed Ruiz at the top of the heavyweights like I'd put Patricia at the top of the "Most talented Arquette" list; it's more by default than anything else.

I thought Ruiz beat Golota and was ahead of Oquendo


I think Golota beat Ruiz's ass solidly. I posted my opinion above using your (?) criteria 1)-5).

The only Ruiz fight i ever liked were verus goloata and jones

Ruiz may not be a future hall of famer, but he should be awarded as a boxing innovator. No one else has devised a way to win a match by clinching & hugging. No one will ever execute it the way he does.

I really don't care about a lesson in logic, but all I know is that Ruiz is one of those guys that will continue to innovate boxing.

Who know? his new technique against Toney may be to hug Toney's balls and kiss Toney's knees.

Go Johnny!!! You're just too creative for your division.