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Come on, flex that boxing brain lets here it for the old timers
10-07-2005, 10:35 AM
Come on, flex that boxing brain lets here it for the old timers
OK, now we're cooking with gas.
I tell ya, boxing is chock full of forgotten greats. Sam Langford hasn't been forgotten as much as he never got his just dues. Over 300 fights, most of them heavy bouts and the last 100 when he was blind. He spanned the highest FULL original weight classes long before the flashy Leonards, Oscars and Roys got paid emperor's wages to do a poor imitation of Sam by coming up sub classes. Sam never got a title shot in any weight class and had the biggest name of his era, Jack Johnson, ducking him, taking lesser money to fight lesser journeymen for Johnson's belt.
Sam did rank 15th in recent IBRO heavy rankings and 3rd in their LH rankings, but I really don't think that does him justice. He is one of the great p4p fighters in history, easily top 10. 99.9% of boxing fans today have never heard of Langford. He is only known by the few who have studied a little boxing history.
10-07-2005, 10:40 AM
Langford scored a quick KO of Tiger Flowers, who was that era's version of Pernell Whitaker.
That's just one of his many amazing feats.
10-07-2005, 11:25 AM
Your right there's loads of fighters from boxing's past that are simply forgotten for one reason or another, I'm sure it was Eddie Futch who said Charlie Burley was one of the best fighters he'd ever seen and he'd seen plenty, Rockin who is part of this site was at the gym with Bill Miller the Detroit trainer probably most known for working with James Toney & he said if we wanted we could ask Bill any questions we liked so I asked who was the best fighter Bill had worked with that hadn't made it to the big time, here is his response:
Lester Felton, a fighter from Detroit that Bill had the oppertunity to work with. "It was in the 50's, boy he was smooth." Bill rolls his hands in mimicing the blows delivered. "That boy could fight.... Ya know I went with him and worked his corner when he fought kid Gavillan here in Detroit, Lester put a whoopin' on him." Bills great smile crosses his face as he leans over to nudge me, "That boy had a great jab, movement.... very much like Robinson. But he could just never seem to win the big one. "After Gavillan I went with him a while later after they brought Ike Williams in to fight 'em. Lester ran..........." Williams would drop Felton in the 2nd round and from that point on, "Lester didnt want no part of him" Feltons record in the books shows that he faced many quality fighters, but never won the big one. When asked why Felton could never win the big one Bill raised his arms and smiled, "He should have, he was a talented fighter."
That's what I'm talking about, the guy obviously had talent & plenty of ability but how many have heard of him I wonder? That's why these old school trainers are irreplaceable cos they have so much knowledge to pass on & the more we hear about these unheralded fighters the better.
10-07-2005, 01:47 PM
I have a Langford clip I can bring in for you guys against Fireman Jim Flynn.
10-07-2005, 01:54 PM
That'd be cool but I don't know how you go about it.
cos i know some of you w3ill find this interesting and have good stuff to add.
can post replies in here or in main thread, thanks Bomb, great conv so far mate!
10-13-2005, 11:55 AM
No problem but I am humbled by the boxing knowledge possessed by a lot of the guys here. I know what I know but have some gaps, you guys are historians in the true sense.
Bomb you can more than hold your own mate. :cool:
10-13-2005, 01:40 PM
[[[OK coloured guys who should have had a crack at Dempsey off the top of my noggin
Harry Wills you have metioned
SAM LANGFORD DUDE!!!!(who would have DEFINTELY kicked his ass)
that four for starters if I researched it I bet i can find another 6 piss easy.]]]
Uh oh, well, Langford and Dempsey are particular favs of mine, so I hate to tell you but but your timing in this case, if translated to the ring, would get you KOed in the first 30 secs of any fight.
Dempsey gained the title in 1919. Langford started a decline around this time as did McVea and Jeannette. Wills was the dominate black heavy while Dempsey held the title. Some folks mention Larry Gains, but he seldom fought in the states and peaked around the latter part of Dempsey's reign. Godfrey started boxing around a year after Jack won his title and was Dempsey's sparring partner for his novice phase.
Dempsey sort of ruined his career by trying to make a match with Wills. Jack had to dump Rickard and Kearns, signed to meet Wills, and was stiffed on his guarantee by the promoter who was struggling for financial backing and a venue for the fight. Jack needed money so he fought exhibitions and appeared in movies and theater, going Hollywood, and didn't defend for 3 yrs. He made over 2 million bucks during this phase, so there was no incentive to fight until Rickard offered him almost a million bucks to fight Tunney.
Sam was starting to be dominated by Wills and even dropped a decision to Bill Tate who was also a Dempsey sparring parnter. Don't get me wrong, Sam was still very dangerous, but he was also half blind by then. By '22 he'd drifted over to El Paso and started to cross over to Mexico and pretty much finished his career there.
It is true that Sam wanted to fight Jack, but Jack would always joke that Sam was too tough. Sam's prime years were the Johnson/Willard years which were 11 yrs total. Johnson was offered the Langford title fight defense at least a couple of times by promoters but always refused. I never heard of Dempsey ever being offered the fight except for one time when he was a skinny 160 lb hobo in NYC being fleeced by NY's finest confidence men for a series of fights in Harlem. Jack ate in soup kitchens, slept on park benches, and whupped up on Harlem's finest, but rode the rails back home, penniless, with a broken rib. The conman promoter wanted him to fight Langford and Dempsey wouldn't do it. He knew Langford was the best in the world and Dempsey was just a hobo trying to upgrade his comp and figured he was getting screwed big time.
Martin (Top Knowledge)
10-13-2005, 01:41 PM
A tribute to the GREAT - Robert "Ruby" Fitzsimmons
W-54 L-8 D-7 (47 ko's)
Date of Birth: 26th May 1863
Date of Death: 22nd October 1917
Beat Jack Dempsey TKO 13 to become the World Middleweight Champion
Beat George Gardner PTS 20 to become the World Light Heavyweight Champion
Beat James J Corbett KO 14 to become the World Heavyweight Champion
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10-13-2005, 01:45 PM
EDIT: Sam's prime heavy years were during Burns/Johnson/Willard eras which lasted an amazing 13-14 yrs.
Agreed K blackie, as discusse dint eh thread Sam would have to have taken Dempsey on at the start of his reigbn but it was still d-able Langofrd was on the slide by 22 mind.
However thats still 3 years i was viable and he should have had a crack imo. Lets put it this way he woudl have done if he had been around today.
10-17-2005, 10:28 AM
However thats still 3 years i was viable ]]]]]
Dempsey was controlled by Kearns and Rickard and had no say in who he fought until he left them 4yrs later. By then Sam had retired to Mexico, but regardless, by 1919 when Dempsey won his title, Langford was becoming very beatable by Wills and dropping a decision to Bill Tate shows you how far he was slipping.
Did you know that Sam almost got to Burns before Johnson did? Yep, Sam was over in France when Burns came through on his world title tour but the financing couldn't be set up in time before Tommy set sail to Australia.
Have you ever compared Langford's and Jeannettes records from their last fight with Johnson until Johnson was KOed by Willard? Sam was knocking out the cream of the heavies by a 4-1 ratio over what Johnson could do against middleweights and journeymen heavies. It's a pitiful comparison and really highlights Johnson's fear of losing his title and prestige to another black man.
nice dude, nice.
I dont know how much io go for demsey being manipulated though, smome sources say kearns et al did, others say he had more of a say....still i guess they must have had some deal of influence.
Maybe Dempsey was ust happy to roll with it.
Kid blackie have you heard of a guy called Bert Gilroy?
Scots from the 20's-40's never got a crack at the title but it seems the type of story you may be interested in.
10-18-2005, 07:15 PM
[[[Kid blackie have you heard of a guy called Bert Gilroy?
Scots from the 20's-40's never got a crack at the title but it seems the type of story you may be interested in.]]]
Well, it was hard and expensive to travel to America where the titles usually resided. That's why I great respect Peter Jackson and Ruby Robert for coming over and taking on America's best. Gilroy seems to have been a local legend and tough customer, but was very inconsistent throughout his career and lost to his best comp, Cerdan and Mills by KO. About the only good thing in boxing these days is more international types of bouts. Gilroy doubtless would have a shot at a world title eventually if he fought today.
he was actually a natural middelweight though and lost to cerdanfighting at light heavy at the end of his career and was injured and too heavy.
if you look at his prime years unfortunately partly ravaged by the war he was unbeaten between 37 and 43 and was unbeaten in 40 fights.
(as you will know dont be fooled by some of the records of his opponents which are very incomplete).
He then got injured in the war and was never the same fighter.
I actually meant he never got a shot at the British title even, the war, politics, injury, all combining to rob him of a valid shot which may have opened the gate to bigger things.
I believe Jock Mcavoy was the incumbant of the british title for most the time Gilroy was a contender (real name Antonio Rae).
Kid blackie if you want I have a book on the man, its gives a fascinating insight not only into boxing during these times the booths etc but the social mood of the era.
if you want as ive read it Ill post it to you? let me know if you are interested. :cool:
10-20-2005, 09:06 PM
[[[Kid blackie if you want I have a book on the man, its gives a fascinating insight not only into boxing during these times the booths etc but the social mood of the era.
if you want as ive read it Ill post it to you? let me know if you are interested.]]]
Well, I've always been interested in why Jimmy Wilde always seems to be lost in conversation about greats. I understand he fought many a booth fight. Not up to date on my blimey lingo. Are you saying you have the book on your computer and can post it to me, or saying that you could post it via the postal service?
well he isnt lost on me and Ive referred to him numerous times on here.
The ghiost with the hammer in his hand is aruably the finest fly weight ever to draw breath.
no the book is paperback dude but i can post it fom work so its free! :cool:
10-28-2005, 09:09 PM
[[[no the book is paperback dude but i can post it fom work so its free!]]]
Sure, give me your email, and I'll send you my address and give you a book report afterwards!
THE REAL NINJA
12-15-2007, 02:59 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezzard_CharlesEzzard Mack Charles (July 7, 1921 – May 28, 1975) was an African-American professional boxer and former Heavyweight Champion of the world.
He was born in Lawrenceville, Georgia, but is commonly thought of a Cincinnatian. Charles, known as "The Cincinnati Cobra," is best remembered for his wins as a heavyweight, but most experts feel he was in his prime as a light heavyweight. Although he never won the championship at that weight, Ring magazine has rated him as the greatest light heavyweight of all time.
Charles turned professional in 1940. He served in the U.S. military during World War II, which prevented him from fighting in 1944 and 1945. He returned to boxing after the war, and hit his prime. He defeated the great light-heavyweight Archie Moore three times, once by knock out, and also defeated all time greats in Charley Burley and Joey Maxim. Shortly after his knock-out of Moore, tragedy struck. Charles fought a tough, young boxer named Sam Baroudi, knocking him out. Baroudi died of the injuries he sustained in this bout. Charles was so devastated he almost gave up fighting. He adapted a more cautious style afterwards, trying not to hurt his opponents.
Charles was unable to get a title shot at light heavyweight, and decided to move up to heavyweight. After knocking out Joe Baksi and Johnny Haynes, Charles won the vacant National Boxing Association world heavyweight title when he outpointed Jersey Joe Walcott over 15 rounds on June 22, 1949. The following year, he outpointed his idol and former world heavyweight champion Joe Louis to become the undisputed champion.
In 1951, despite having beaten Walcott in a rematch, Charles fought Walcott again and lost the title when Walcott knocked him out with a left hook in the seventh round. Charles lost a controversial decision in the fourth and final bout. If Charles had won this fight he would have become the first man in history to regain the heavyweight championship.
Later, Charles would go on to challenge Rocky Marciano twice for the Heavyweight title. His two stirring battles with Marciano are regarded as ring classics. In the first bout, held in June of 1954, he valiantly took Rocky the distance, going down on points in a vintage heavyweight bout. In their September rematch, Charles split Marciano's nose and almost won the fight by TKO. Marciano, however, rallied to KO Charles in the 8th round, in a bout that was named "Fight of the Year."
Financial problems forced Charles to fight long after he should have retired. At that point, he was only a shell of his former self, losing 12 of his final 23 fights. He retired with a record of 96-25-1 (58 KOs).
Ezzard Charles died in Chicago from amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS) also known as Lou Gehrig's Disease, aged 53, in 1975 and was interred in the Burr Oak Cemetery, Alsip, Illinois.
He was elected to the International Boxing Hall of Fame in 1990
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