View Full Version : Fighters best at mixing defense with their offense?


Steak
06-18-2011, 03:54 PM
And I dont mean mixing offense with their defense, which is actually quite a different thing, although somewhat similiar. I mean guys that could attack and not get hit in the process, ie incorporating head movement with their punches.

Roberto Duran comes to mind. Chavez also had very good defense for a fighter that pretty much perpetually came forward, because its much easier to fight defensively going backwards than it is going forwards.

any others?

The Surgeon
06-18-2011, 04:10 PM
And I dont mean mixing offense with their defense, which is actually quite a different thing, although somewhat similiar. I mean guys that could attack and not get hit in the process, ie incorporating head movement with their punches.

Roberto Duran comes to mind. Chavez also had very good defense for a fighter that pretty much perpetually came forward, because its much easier to fight defensively going backwards than it is going forwards.

any others?

When Mayweather lets his shots go he is Always thinking defence it can be a joy to watch

Duran was a great call and i'll also throw in Frazier as he would always mix his bobbing defence in with his heavy duty punching

NChristo
06-18-2011, 04:15 PM
Jose Napoles.

-Huey-
06-18-2011, 04:19 PM
Juan Manuel Marquez

fitefanSHO
06-18-2011, 04:47 PM
Glen Johnson comes to mind. Duran, of course. Chavez.

A young Tyson.

Barn
06-18-2011, 05:12 PM
From what I've seen Sam Langford was great at this.

IronDanHamza
06-18-2011, 08:01 PM
Hopkins does this pretty well.

goblin213
06-18-2011, 08:07 PM
Mike McCallum and James Toney

Wild Blue Yonda
06-18-2011, 08:26 PM
Jose Napoles.

Certainly.

I cannot think of a better instance than Duran, however.

SCtrojansbaby
06-18-2011, 08:59 PM
I don't think pure counter punchers like James Toney, Floyd Mayweather or guys like Roy Jones who just make you afraid to throw punches fit the description.

I think the 175 Bernard Hopkins is the guy who best fits he would come forward and land hard punches then smother your offense

Steak
06-18-2011, 09:13 PM
Juan Manuel Marquez

no offense, but Marquez is not even close to fitting this catagory. the guy gets hit all the time. yes, even in his prime, Im very well aware hes old now.

DarkTerror88
06-18-2011, 09:32 PM
Duran, Napoles,maybe toney and im going on a limb here and saying Basilio (see Basilio v Robinson I)

RubenSonny
06-18-2011, 09:33 PM
no offense, but Marquez is not even close to fitting this catagory. the guy gets hit all the time. yes, even in his prime, Im very well aware hes old now.

Yet you mention Chavez?

RubenSonny
06-18-2011, 09:34 PM
Ray Leonard.

studentofthegam
06-18-2011, 09:38 PM
Juan Manuel MarquezI was thinking Marquez too. Duran is a good one.

no offense, but Marquez is not even close to fitting this catagory. the guy gets hit all the time. yes, even in his prime, Im very well aware hes old now.Chavez got hit a lot.

Steak
06-18-2011, 10:18 PM
Yet you mention Chavez?
Chavez had excellent defense coming forward. which is why he came away from his fights rarely marked up at all, and was praised for his defense before and after the Rosario fight.

Marquez got marked up against guys like Jandaeng Terdsak and Jimrex Jaca, who werent even the best in their division. frankly I dont understand how anyone could think his defense was good under any criteria.

Scott9945
06-18-2011, 10:40 PM
I'm sure some old time fighters fit well here, but off what I've seen live, Duran is an easy first choice here.

talip bin osman
06-18-2011, 10:52 PM
the 3 guys on top of the lightweight food chain...

Wild Blue Yonda
06-19-2011, 02:47 AM
You can't criticise Marquez as a choice but nominate Chavez, IMO.

cooper5
06-19-2011, 03:14 AM
The two Sugar Ray's come to mind for me.

Steak
06-19-2011, 03:38 AM
You can't criticise Marquez as a choice but nominate Chavez, IMO.
Chavez had far better defense than Marquez, and got hit less during his combinations than Marquez did.

Ziggy Stardust
06-19-2011, 01:29 PM
Chavez had far better defense than Marquez, and got hit less during his combinations than Marquez did.

Against his non-tomato can opponents Chavez shipped a TON of punishment. Watch the Taylor I: If Taylor had had any power at all Chavez would have been stopped (not counted out, too good a chin). He sponged punches all fight long and was just fortunate that Taylor couldn't bust an egg with a hammer.

Poet

Steak
06-19-2011, 01:52 PM
Against his non-tomato can opponents Chavez shipped a TON of punishment. Watch the Taylor I: If Taylor had had any power at all Chavez would have been stopped (not counted out, too good a chin). He sponged punches all fight long and was just fortunate that Taylor couldn't bust an egg with a hammer.

Poetuh huh, which is why Chavez completely nullified Rosario at close range and dominated him, and Rosario is one of the biggest punchers of all time.

Taylor landed a ton of punches on a number of fighters. he beat the **** out of Buddy McGirt, and McGirt didnt have bad defense at all and would show his quality later with his impressive win over Simon Brown, as well as giving near prime Whitaker one of the toughest fights of his career.


I know people hate Chavez for a number of reasons, but come on. Comparing his defense to Juan Manuel Marquez?

IronDanHamza
06-19-2011, 01:59 PM
Joe Louis
Harold Johnson
Ezzard Charles

Ziggy Stardust
06-19-2011, 02:01 PM
uh huh, which is why Chavez completely nullified Rosario at close range and dominated him, and Rosario is one of the biggest punchers of all time.

Taylor landed a ton of punches on a number of fighters. he beat the **** out of Buddy McGirt, and McGirt didnt have bad defense at all and would show his quality later with his impressive win over Simon Brown, as well as giving near prime Whitaker one of the toughest fights of his career.


I know people hate Chavez for a number of reasons, but come on. Comparing his defense to Juan Manuel Marquez?

Rosario was a big puncher but certainly no volume puncher (or known for his accuracy for that matter). Nor was Rosario a particularly outstanding infighter. Chavez's chin was good enough to shake off the odd bomb Rosario landed but Rosario was never going to throw punches in enough quantity to seriously challenge the way Taylor did.

Poet

Steak
06-19-2011, 02:53 PM
Rosario was a big puncher but certainly no volume puncher (or known for his accuracy for that matter). Nor was Rosario a particularly outstanding infighter. Chavez's chin was good enough to shake off the odd bomb Rosario landed but Rosario was never going to throw punches in enough quantity to seriously challenge the way Taylor did.

Poet
limiting a fighters offense+avoiding their punches=defense. Chavez did that constantly by using his footwork to cut off the ring and his defense to avoid punches while coming forward. It wasnt like he 'followed' opponents, by any means.

and Rosario actually threw a lot of punches in that fight, and his accuracy was way worse against Chavez than it was against previous opponents.

McGirt was a pretty slick and evasive fighter as he showed agaisnt Whitaker and Simon Brown, and yet he was ****ed up against Taylor, who busted up McGirt's face and caught him clean often. Chavez didnt have that kind of damage at all, because he woudl at least partially block most of Taylor's shots or roll with the punches.

If you dont think Chavez's defense was all that then fine, even if I disagree. but it was way better than Marquez's, who gets hit clean and flush even against not so good competition.

studentofthegam
06-19-2011, 03:35 PM
limiting a fighters offense+avoiding their punches=defense. Chavez did that constantly by using his footwork to cut off the ring and his defense to avoid punches while coming forward. It wasnt like he 'followed' opponents, by any means.

and Rosario actually threw a lot of punches in that fight, and his accuracy was way worse against Chavez than it was against previous opponents.

McGirt was a pretty slick and evasive fighter as he showed agaisnt Whitaker and Simon Brown, and yet he was ****ed up against Taylor, who busted up McGirt's face and caught him clean often. Chavez didnt have that kind of damage at all, because he woudl at least partially block most of Taylor's shots or roll with the punches.

If you dont think Chavez's defense was all that then fine, even if I disagree. but it was way better than Marquez's, who gets hit clean and flush even against not so good competition.Chavez didnt show damage much on his face but that doesnt mean he didnt get hit a lot. Chavez was known for his relentless pursuit and good chin not defense.

studentofthegam
06-19-2011, 03:36 PM
Jersey Joe Walcott. good head movement and consistent offense.

Steak
06-19-2011, 03:48 PM
Chavez didnt show damage much on his face but that doesnt mean he didnt get hit a lot. Chavez was known for his relentless pursuit and good chin not defense.sure, which is why he was considered the best fighter in the world for years and was praised for his excellent defense on the inside even early on in his career.

RubenSonny
06-19-2011, 03:57 PM
Roger Mayweather had no problems hitting Chavez, hell Marty Jakubowski was able to hit him cleanly.

Steak
06-19-2011, 04:34 PM
Roger Mayweather had no problems hitting Chavez, hell Marty Jakubowski was able to hit him cleanly.
:rofl: uh huh. and Roger Mayweather had 'no problem' hitting Whitaker either, wanna pretend Whitaker has **** defense? thats just simply wrong.
alright, since there is a lot of dislike for Chavez in this thread, lets just name some other guys.



Ill throw Archie Moore out there.

IronDanHamza
06-19-2011, 05:04 PM
:rofl: uh huh. and Roger Mayweather had 'no problem' hitting Whitaker either, wanna pretend Whitaker has **** defense? thats just simply wrong.
alright, since there is a lot of dislike for Chavez in this thread, lets just name some other guys.



Ill throw Archie Moore out there.

Roger Mayweather had alot more problems hitting Whitaker than he did Chavez.

Just throwing that out there.

Steak
06-19-2011, 05:12 PM
Roger Mayweather had alot more problems hitting Whitaker than he did Chavez.

Just throwing that out there.
no doubt. but Roger certainly didnt have that hard a time hitting Whitaker, he hit him pretty often flush and hurt him at one point. Roger's right hand and overall accuracy was very good.

SBleeder
06-19-2011, 08:06 PM
The two Sugar Ray's come to mind for me.


http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=120935&cat=boxer

At 4-22-1, his defense couldn't have been that great...

RubenSonny
06-22-2011, 01:49 PM
:rofl: uh huh. and Roger Mayweather had 'no problem' hitting Whitaker either, wanna pretend Whitaker has **** defense? thats just simply wrong.

Horrible comparison, look at where Whitaker and Chavez were at that point of their careers, not to mention that Whitaker got hit far less by Roger.

alright, since there is a lot of dislike for Chavez in this thread

Its no secret that your a HUGE fan of Chavez and do not like Marquez. I actually have no problem with you picking Chavez I just think its a double standard to put fourth Chavez as an example and shun Marquez. Both fighters are not defensive wizards, thats pretty obvious but both showed the ability to adjust while going forward to avoid punches. If you want to make comparisons lets look at both fighters against Offensive machines, Chavez-Taylor and Marquez-Pacquiao, now tell me who displayed better defence in those fights?

Steak
06-22-2011, 02:31 PM
Horrible comparison, look at where Whitaker and Chavez were at that point of their careers, not to mention that Whitaker got hit far less by Roger.



Its no secret that your a HUGE fan of Chavez and do not like Marquez. I actually have no problem with you picking Chavez I just think its a double standard to put fourth Chavez as an example and shun Marquez. Both fighters are not defensive wizards, thats pretty obvious but both showed the ability to adjust while going forward to avoid punches. If you want to make comparisons lets look at both fighters against Offensive machines, Chavez-Taylor and Marquez-Pacquiao, now tell me who displayed better defence in those fights?

on the contrary, I like Marquez. hes fun to watch, exciting, and puts together excellent combinations. Im just realistic about him. Ive seen a number of his fights, and defense flat out is not something I would ever associate with him.

First off, Marquez was not on the offensive agaisnt Pacquiao. he was primarily counter punching. whenever he came forward, he got hit, simple as that. and the reason Marquez is able to stifle Pacquiao's offense is definitely not his defense, but his counter punching. PAcs offense comes from his legs primarily, and he has a lot of forward momentum when attacking. this makes Marquez's counter punches even more effective, and makes Pacquiao more reluctant to go on the attack. incidently, Marquez got ****ed up bad in both the Pacquiao fights, the reason they were so close is because he gave back just as much.
Chavez, not so much. outworked yes. but he wasnt getting his butt kicked, and for Taylor it was the norm for him to land around 400 punches on his opponent if it went 12 rounds. McGirt was very arguably more difficult to hit than any opponent Pacquiao has fought, and yet Taylor's offense wasnt slowed at all by McGirt. Pacquiao's offense is often limited if the opponent fights defensively or in particular uses footwork or different distances.

Walt Liquor
06-22-2011, 02:49 PM
did the alvarez fight get you thinking of this this week?

The_Demon
06-22-2011, 10:20 PM
Marquez's timing and accuracy are his main attributes rather than his defence,but i see both sides of the debate

right_hand_lead
06-23-2011, 03:22 AM
James Toney..not even a question. Seamless.

IMDAZED
06-23-2011, 12:19 PM
James Toney..not even a question. Seamless.

You took the words right out of my mouth.

RubenSonny
06-23-2011, 12:49 PM
on the contrary, I like Marquez. hes fun to watch, exciting, and puts together excellent combinations. Im just realistic about him. Ive seen a number of his fights, and defense flat out is not something I would ever associate with him.

First off, Marquez was not on the offensive agaisnt Pacquiao. he was primarily counter punching. whenever he came forward, he got hit, simple as that. and the reason Marquez is able to stifle Pacquiao's offense is definitely not his defense, but his counter punching. PAcs offense comes from his legs primarily, and he has a lot of forward momentum when attacking. this makes Marquez's counter punches even more effective, and makes Pacquiao more reluctant to go on the attack. incidently, Marquez got ****ed up bad in both the Pacquiao fights, the reason they were so close is because he gave back just as much.
Chavez, not so much. outworked yes. but he wasnt getting his butt kicked, and for Taylor it was the norm for him to land around 400 punches on his opponent if it went 12 rounds. McGirt was very arguably more difficult to hit than any opponent Pacquiao has fought, and yet Taylor's offense wasnt slowed at all by McGirt. Pacquiao's offense is often limited if the opponent fights defensively or in particular uses footwork or different distances.

You make interesting points, I will get back to this one tomorrow.

Miburo
06-23-2011, 03:37 PM
Toney is about the purest fighter of this type you'll find.

Toney616
06-24-2011, 02:25 PM
Toney is about the purest fighter of this type you'll find.
I like the way that him and Duran leaned with their punches. They through a right and then lean to there left and slip the incoming counter.