View Full Version : 1 Billion: Calzaghe true great or over rated fraud?


The Surgeon
06-18-2011, 12:29 PM
Ah Joe Calzaghe....... HATE the guy! :fu2:

46-0 and with wins over ATG's in Beranrd Hopkins and Roy Jones Jnr on his resume on the surface it seems very impressive. And it is, only to a point tho imo. Of the two best fighters he faced one was past prime but still very good despite his advanced years in B-Hop, but then again i felt Hopkins should have won that and however u slice it it was a debatable result against a 43 year old. The other great fighter he faced was Roy jones. Except it wasnt was it? It was a shadow of his corpse and nothing more. And even HE managed to dump Joe hard on his ass in the first round (as did Hopkins)

Other top wins, Kessler? Mikkel is good but its been reported that he faced Joe with an injured right hand when they battled infront of 50000 spectators in Cardiff, he has since been battered FAR more convincingly by one Andre Ward. And he isnt past his best as some will have u belive he's just not as good as some thought. A good but not great fighter.

Lacy? BUM. End of, he was never any good and Calzaghe exposed him. Big punch good chin but f all else. Lacy was a Hype job and thats that

I'll leave it at that for now on the negative stuff (i could easily go on)
and end the post with some positives

He had a great engine, could adapt mid fight, and recovered well when hurt or dropped, a testiment to his heart and his fitness. Also credit must be given for longevity despite the lack of real quality opposition, its still pretty impressive

Calzaghe also conquered TWO divisions and looked as tho he was still capable of a few more decent wins before he bowed out.

He stuck with his roots throughout his career and never left his father or their ***** box gym in Wales, and he came out with all his senses and an undefeated record

IronDanHamza
06-18-2011, 12:37 PM
He's a capable fighter, definitely capable.

But he simply did pretty much nothing. His career consists of almost nothing.

He has lots of title defences at 168, only 2 of which were against fighters ranked in the Top 5 at the time; Kessler and Lacy.

Other than that he has 2 wins against at 175 against 2 fighters that were 40+ years old.

He's not an all time great. By any stretch of the imagination.

And he will get into the HOF, although there are fighters who are much more deserving that probably never will.

IronDanHamza
06-18-2011, 12:39 PM
Ah Joe Calzaghe....... HATE the guy! :fu2:

46-0 and with wins over ATG's in Beranrd Hopkins and Roy Jones Jnr on his resume on the surface it seems very impressive. And it is, only to a point tho imo. Of the two best fighters he faced one was past prime but still very good despite his advanced years in B-Hop, but then again i felt Hopkins should have won that and however u slice it it was a debatable result against a 43 year old. The other great fighter he faced was Roy jones. Except it wasnt was it? It was a shadow of his corpse and nothing more. And even HE managed to dump Joe hard on his ass in the first round (as did Hopkins)

Other top wins, Kessler? Mikkel is good but its been reported that he faced Joe with an injured right hand when they battled infront of 50000 spectators in Cardiff, he has since been battered FAR more convincingly by one Andre Ward. And he isnt past his best as some will have u belive he's just not as good as some thought. A good but not great fighter.

Lacy? BUM. End of, he was never any good and Calzaghe exposed him. Big punch good chin but f all else. Lacy was a Hype job and thats that

I'll leave it at that for now on the negative stuff (i could easily go on)
and end the post with some positives

He had a great engine, could adapt mid fight, and recovered well when hurt or dropped, a testiment to his heart and his fitness. Also credit must be given for longevity despite the lack of real quality opposition, its still pretty impressive
Calzaghe also conquered TWO divisions and looked as tho he was still capable of a few more decent wins before he bowed out.

He stuck with his roots throughout his career and never left his father or their ***** box gym in Wales, and he came out with all his senses and an undefeated record

Shouldn't we give the likes of Ottke and Calderon the same credit?

Calzaghe is greater than both of those fighters but if we are giving him credit for his longevity alone regardless to who those defences were against then surely fighters like Ottke should get the same treatment?

The Surgeon
06-18-2011, 01:12 PM
Shouldn't we give the likes of Ottke and Calderon the same credit? Calzaghe is greater than both of those fighters but if we are giving him credit for his longevity alone regardless to who those defences were against then surely fighters like Ottke should get the same treatment? Well we do kind of, Ottke wouldnt otherwise get a mention at all, although some of his decision "wins" are worth umm discussing lol

Between u and me Dan (Dont tell anyone!) i dont like Joe but thought in the intrest of balance and debate i should say SOMETHING positive and i was clutching a tad, dont just want it to be a hate thread u know but then hey if it does turn into a hate thread so be it lol

crold1
06-18-2011, 01:17 PM
Well we do kind of, Ottke wouldnt otherwise get a mention at all, although some of his decision "wins" are worth umm discussing lol

Between u and me Dan (Dont tell anyone!) i dont like Joe but thought in the intrest of balance and debate i should say SOMETHING positive and i was clutching a tad, dont just want it to be a hate thread u know but then hey if it does turn into a hate thread so be it lol

Ottke has 4-5 losses on neutral turf. He's slightly more credible than Carnera. The reason he doesn't get the credit Joe does is people saw fights like Reid.

I still stand by my take on Calzaghe: http://www.boxingscene.com/measured-against-all-time-joe-calzaghe--16920

If he's top 100, he's in the back half and low, but he's a divisional ATG and Super Middleweight is growing a deeper and deeper history all the time. He'll be a factor in discussion of the division for as long as it exists.

The Surgeon
06-18-2011, 01:24 PM
Ottke has 4-5 losses on neutral turf. He's slightly more credible than Carnera. The reason he doesn't get the credit Joe does is people saw fights like Reid. I still stand by my take on Calzaghe: http://www.boxingscene.com/measured-against-all-time-joe-calzaghe--16920 If he's top 100, he's in the back half and low, but he's a divisional ATG and Super Middleweight is growing a deeper and deeper history all the time. He'll be a factor in discussion of the division for as long as it exists. Good point, SMW is a new division and not really a glamour one at that, but now we are getting a good group in Ward and co and in time i think there will be more and more great fighters in this division, Wards already making a case as to being better than Joe and by the time he's done im confident he will have established that without much doubt

New England
06-18-2011, 01:54 PM
Shouldn't we give the likes of Ottke and Calderon the same credit?

Calzaghe is greater than both of those fighters but if we are giving him credit for his longevity alone regardless to who those defences were against then surely fighters like Ottke should get the same treatment?



calderon was a fantastic boxer at his best.

he really was something else. his head doesn't even make it past the top rope.


ottke sucked
he relied on horrible judging and refereeing. he never stepped up in class
he had nothing going for him. i really cant stand the idea that boxers can have careers like his while other more deserving guys endure hardships.


for me calzaghe is somewhere in the middle in terms of what he actually proved. and of course caldron went out on his shield against a superior challenger at the end of his career in what i thought was last years second best fight, giving him a huge boost in my book.
he was a very good fighter
we never got a chance to see how great he was because of the depth of his competition

kessler was his best opponent. at the time people were talking about kessler like he was one of the best kept secrets in boxing, and they really weren't that off. he was a very good fighter. he had physical abilities, one of the best and most active one-two's we've seen of late, a good chin, and was at the top of a huge undefeated run. and calzaghe beat him up.



i'm not going to tell a fighter when to retire, but joe could have gone after bigger fights toward the end of his career, or even came back after a brief retirement.

his skills hadn't seemed to diminish greatly, and there was certainly plenty left to do in terms of building a legacy, even if there were almost no names for him to fight at the time of his retirement as we've discussed in previous threads


i'd probably start my scoffing at lists that place calzaghe anywhere but the 90ish plus level of a top 100 list
i've been hearing that general area from some contemporary writers, and though it's obviously too early to say for sure, i tend to think that's an ok ballpark

in my eyes he doesn't feel like a top 100 fighter
but that's just an opinion
and one that will certainly differ in one direction or the other, or become more concrete as time goes by

Ziggy Stardust
06-18-2011, 01:56 PM
Uh oh now you've done it Surgeon! You've made a thread sure to bring out all the crazies :chuckle9:

Poet

The Surgeon
06-18-2011, 02:07 PM
Uh oh now you've done it Surgeon! You've made a thread sure to bring out all the crazies :chuckle9:

Poet

Lol someone knocked at my door a minute ago and i half expected it to be Joey Zags with a baseball bat! :sad6:

I thought Calzaghe was a contraversial one and would inspire a passionate debate and i want a Billion points damn it! lol

$BloodyNate$
06-18-2011, 02:13 PM
Definitely more Fraud then true all time great.

His title defenses consisted of pretty much...nothing until the last few. 2 of his biggest wins against Reid & Hopkins, he arguably lost and never even tried to rematch because he knows he lost.

On a scale of 1-10 his resume is like a 7.

The Surgeon
06-18-2011, 02:17 PM
Definitely more Fraud then true all time great.

His title defenses consisted of pretty much...nothing until the last few. 2 of his biggest wins against Reid & Hopkins, he arguably lost and never even tried to rematch because he knows he lost.

On a scale of 1-10 his resume is like a 7.

I havent watched the Reid fight in years but i remember thinking he deserved to have the win over Joe. Even if u did feel Joe win he should never (if he's as good as people claim) have been going life and death with a fighter of Reids limited ability. His stinker with Starie always sticks in my mind too, Urrrgh awful

IronDanHamza
06-18-2011, 02:20 PM
calderon was a fantastic boxer at his best.

he really was something else. his head doesn't even make it past the top rope.


ottke sucked
he relied on horrible judging and refereeing. he never stepped up in class
he had nothing going for him. i really cant stand the idea that boxers can have careers like his while other more deserving guys endure hardships.


for me calzaghe is somewhere in the middle in terms of what he actually proved. and of course caldron went out on his shield against a superior challenger at the end of his career in what i thought was last years second best fight, giving him a huge boost in my book.
he was a very good fighter
we never got a chance to see how great he was because of the depth of his competition

kessler was his best opponent. at the time people were talking about kessler like he was one of the best kept secrets in boxing, and they really weren't that off. he was a very good fighter. he had physical abilities, one of the best and most active one-two's we've seen of late, a good chin, and was at the top of a huge undefeated run. and calzaghe beat him up.



i'm not going to tell a fighter when to retire, but joe could have gone after bigger fights toward the end of his career, or even came back after a brief retirement.

his skills hadn't seemed to diminish greatly, and there was certainly plenty left to do in terms of building a legacy, even if there were almost no names for him to fight at the time of his retirement as we've discussed in previous threads


i'd probably start my scoffing at lists that place calzaghe anywhere but the 90ish plus level of a top 100 list
i've been hearing that general area from some contemporary writers, and though it's obviously too early to say for sure, i tend to think that's an ok ballpark

in my eyes he doesn't feel like a top 100 fighter
but that's just an opinion
and one that will certainly differ in one direction or the other, or become more concrete as time goes by

Calderon was a good fighter, but that's where it stops for me.

I once thought he may be HOF quality but if you look at his resume he really isn't. Even with his title defences.

I see what you're saying but we can discuss who why and where about Calzaghe's career all day.

The fact is; accross his entire career he only fought 3 fighters who were ranked in the Top 5 in their respective division, in Lacy, Kessler and Hopkins.

One was terrible, the other was solid, and the other was heading into his mid 40's.

None are exceptional wins.

Calzaghe will no question make into the HOF, although I believe there are many that should over him.

But a Top 100 ATG? Joe Calzaghe, is not.

IronDanHamza
06-18-2011, 02:23 PM
Definitely more Fraud then true all time great.

His title defenses consisted of pretty much...nothing until the last few. 2 of his biggest wins against Reid & Hopkins, he arguably lost and never even tried to rematch because he knows he lost.

On a scale of 1-10 his resume is like a 7.

7?!

Who do you rank as a 6?

:lol1:

IronDanHamza
06-18-2011, 02:26 PM
Well we do kind of, Ottke wouldnt otherwise get a mention at all, although some of his decision "wins" are worth umm discussing lol

Between u and me Dan (Dont tell anyone!) i dont like Joe but thought in the intrest of balance and debate i should say SOMETHING positive and i was clutching a tad, dont just want it to be a hate thread u know but then hey if it does turn into a hate thread so be it lol

But, there is a difference from 'getting a mention' and being considered a great fighter.

Ottke woudn't get metioned without has defences but he will never, ever, be considered a great fighter.

Which is pretty much the only argument that can be given for Calzaghe being an all time great.

Because it's certainly not his resume.

The Surgeon
06-18-2011, 02:33 PM
But, there is a difference from 'getting a mention' and being considered a great fighter.

Ottke woudn't get metioned without has defences but he will never, ever, be considered a great fighter.

Which is pretty much the only argument that can be given for Calzaghe being an all time great.

Because it's certainly not his resume.

U wont get an Argument out of me on this bud, Zags resume flops and his longevity is what makes him have a case tho like u its not enough for me....

I was pretty big on Ivan Calderon btw, and he could mesmorise with his pure boxing at times - such a tiny man too but ur right he isnt HOF material.

$BloodyNate$
06-18-2011, 02:48 PM
7?!

Who do you rank as a 6?

:lol1:

Ok maybe an 8 but people I'd rank below him would be Eubanks or Benn.

crold1
06-18-2011, 02:53 PM
U wont get an Argument out of me on this bud, Zags resume flops and his longevity is what makes him have a case tho like u its not enough for me....

I was pretty big on Ivan Calderon btw, and he could mesmorise with his pure boxing at times - such a tiny man too but ur right he isnt HOF material.

Yes he is and he'll get in.

The Surgeon
06-18-2011, 03:06 PM
Yes he is and he'll get in.

Ur talking about Ivan yeah?

I should have said imo, i mean im a big fan id be happy for him if he did get in i just dont think he will or really should

Calzaghe Will get in but good god it will ruin my day :mad:

crold1
06-18-2011, 03:11 PM
Ur talking about Ivan yeah?

I should have said imo, i mean im a big fan id be happy for him if he did get in i just dont think he will or really should

Calzaghe Will get in but good god it will ruin my day :mad:

That's fair. I'd bet the house he's in, if not right away then eventually. He gets in the same way guys like Galaxy did. Sustained brilliance, even when comp is sometimes questionable, counts for a lot. Calderon being familiar to the U.S. market puts him over the top.

The Surgeon
06-18-2011, 03:17 PM
That's fair. I'd bet the house he's in, if not right away then eventually. He gets in the same way guys like Galaxy did. Sustained brilliance, even when comp is sometimes questionable, counts for a lot. Calderon being familiar to the U.S. market puts him over the top.

Well hopefully ur right, i dont suppose being involved in a FOTY with Segura will hurt his chances too much either thinking about it...

Still i dont feel he has done enough personally

Whats ur take on Calzaghe?

crold1
06-18-2011, 03:24 PM
Well hopefully ur right, i dont suppose being involved in a FOTY with Segura will hurt his chances too much either thinking about it...

Still i dont feel he has done enough personally

Whats ur take on Calzaghe?

I think Calderon did enough, especially considering how difficult it can be for smaller fighters to get challenging fights due to regional splits etc. Cazares and Segura gave him two quality rivals and first fight with each was a classic along with almost 20 wins in belt fights.

I posted a link to my take of Cal on the page 1 of this thread. Wrote a lengthy piece on him shortly after Jones.

Here it is again: http://www.boxingscene.com/measured-against-all-time-joe-calzaghe--16920

Cheers.

Welsh Jon
06-18-2011, 03:48 PM
As a Calzaghe fan I feel I need to say a few words in his defence. I've watched all but 3 of his title defences, so I know how bad the level of his opposition was better than most. And this was made worse by the fact that Joe always fought at his opponents level, if he was fighting a sub-standard fighter he would put in a sub-standard effort. So he ended up being in a lot of terrible fights. But he did not actually avoid meeting anyone in his division, it was just that he was in a very poor division. When he actually got in the ring with credible threats he put in some displays that few fighters of his generation were capable of. It's frustrating that he wasn't in with better fighters during his career, and his resume has been cheapened as a result. He's an all-time great Super-Middleweight, though not an all-time great pound for pounder cos he simply didn't fight enough top fighters.

SirTomJones
06-18-2011, 04:07 PM
Ah Joe Calzaghe....... HATE the guy! :fu2:


hate will cloud your judgement.

This topic has been done to death.

Conclusion is Joe Calzaghe is a Hall of Famer despite some 'boxing fans' crying about it.

Ziggy Stardust
06-18-2011, 04:54 PM
Conclusion is Joe Calzaghe is a Hall of Famer despite some 'boxing fans' crying about it.

And Arturo Gatti will get into the HOF too.....that and 4 quid will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

Poet

Ziggy Stardust
06-18-2011, 04:58 PM
Ur talking about Ivan yeah?

I should have said imo, i mean im a big fan id be happy for him if he did get in i just dont think he will or really should

Calzaghe Will get in but good god it will ruin my day :mad:

You got to remember though that the IBHOF isn't about greatness the way that Canton and Cooperstown are. If a fighter has a big enough fan base they'll get in. The IBHOF is a fans' HOF and that's OK, it just shouldn't be used as some sort of standard for greatness because that's not what it's about.

Poet

crold1
06-18-2011, 05:20 PM
You got to remember though that the IBHOF isn't about greatness the way that Canton and Cooperstown are. If a fighter has a big enough fan base they'll get in. The IBHOF is a fans' HOF and that's OK, it just shouldn't be used as some sort of standard for greatness because that's not what it's about.

Poet

That's less true lately and only partly true in general. The limit to top three vote getters has had a strong affect on quality in recent classes. beyond that, there are not THAT many fighters who are in and should not be in a purists sense and, it's worth noting on those not in, the IBHOF is only about 20 years old. It's just taking time to catch up in some cases. Lloyd Marshall and Chang getting in last year was a good sign.

Mugwump
06-18-2011, 05:21 PM
Just a quick point about the Lacy fight. It's easy to look back on Lacy and label him mediocre. His career since Calzaghe certainly warrants that label. I mean, we can discuss the weaknesses in Lacy's game, whether he warranted some of the adjectives that were being tossed his way at the time (many of which I don't agree with) and the question of P4P legitimacy. But I think it would be harsh to say the Lacy that entered the ring that night against Joe (with the record he had) was a poor fighter. He wasn't. IMO, he was an above average champion with an exceptional shot and a highly underrated chin.

I don't give Joe props because he beat Lacy (whilst being a heavy underdog). I give it him for the manner in which he beat Lacy. It was an outstanding display of boxing. A complete shutout (or should have been had Joe been a little more careful). The volume of punches, the accuracy (at times he looked like he couldn't miss), the angles Joe created, the clever feints and switching to plan B, C, D (often within the same round) - for me it was a very impressive display. One which deserves more credit than he is afforded by many. And let's be honest - it was a shellacking that Lacy never recovered from.

Welsh Jon
06-18-2011, 06:21 PM
Just a quick point about the Lacy fight. It's easy to look back on Lacy and label him mediocre. His career since Calzaghe certainly warrants that label. I mean, we can discuss the weaknesses in Lacy's game, whether he warranted some of the adjectives that were being tossed his way at the time (many of which I don't agree with) and the question of P4P legitimacy. But I think it would be harsh to say the Lacy that entered the ring that night against Joe (with the record he had) was a poor fighter. He wasn't. IMO, he was an above average champion with an exceptional shot and a highly underrated chin.

I don't give Joe props because he beat Lacy (whilst being a heavy underdog). I give it him for the manner in which he beat Lacy. It was an outstanding display of boxing. A complete shutout (or should have been had Joe been a little more careful). The volume of punches, the accuracy (at times he looked like he couldn't miss), the angles Joe created, the clever feints and switching to plan B, C, D (often within the same round) - for me it was a very impressive display. One which deserves more credit than he is afforded by many. And let's be honest - it was a shellacking that Lacy never recovered from.

Couldn't agree with you more. The only other Super-Middleweight in the brief history of the division that could have put on a performance like Joe's against Lacey was Roy Jones Jr. Lacey was overrated, but he was knocking out everyone put in front of him and had a scary aura about him. Joe demolished that aura, and Lacey was never the same again.

IronDanHamza
06-18-2011, 06:57 PM
Ok maybe an 8 but people I'd rank below him would be Eubanks or Benn.

:lol1: :lol1:

Calzaghes resume is not an 8 nor a 7.

I'm saying that's too high.

Ziggy Stardust
06-18-2011, 08:39 PM
Lacey was overrated, but he was knocking out everyone put in front of him and had a scary aura about him. Joe demolished that aura, and Lacey was never the same again.

Because Lacy hadn't had anyone in front of him with a pulse yet maybe? It's easy to look like a world beater when you're fighting tomato cans.

Poet

New England
06-18-2011, 10:03 PM
Lol someone knocked at my door a minute ago and i half expected it to be Joey Zags with a baseball bat! :sad6:

I thought Calzaghe was a contraversial one and would inspire a passionate debate and i want a Billion points damn it! lol




was it a faint tapping sound?


like the soft hands of a kitten scratching at your door?



lol!

taking shots across the bow at calzaghe for not having punching power is too easy. he really did have hands like a six year old

Steak
06-18-2011, 10:10 PM
Couldn't agree with you more. The only other Super-Middleweight in the brief history of the division that could have put on a performance like Joe's against Lacey was Roy Jones Jr. Lacey was overrated, but he was knocking out everyone put in front of him and had a scary aura about him. Joe demolished that aura, and Lacey was never the same again.

lol wat? Toney would have turned Lacy inside out. He was way better than Lacy and stylistically would have had a field day with him as well. Lacy certainly wouldnt see the final bell.

$BloodyNate$
06-18-2011, 11:15 PM
:lol1: :lol1:

Calzaghes resume is not an 8 nor a 7.

I'm saying that's too high.

I mean 7 is reasonable because a top 100 ATG the lowest I'd give them is an 8 and I don't think Calzaghe is top 100. But is at least a 7.

Hopkins was an A level win would be an A+ if Hopkins was young though because speed killed him.

Jeff Lacey was a C win would be a B if he did more but since he hasn't done ***** a C because EVERYBODY thought he would win and thought he was the next big thing in boxing.

Kessler is a B level win. Reid & Eubanks are C level wins, Manfredo a D+. I mean it isn't nothing special. I think it's a 6 or 7 at the least. Because a full 10 is obviously an A+ level. 9.5 an A. 9 B+, 8.5 a B, 8 a B. 7.5 a C+. 7 a C, 6.5 a D+, 6 a D, ect. ect.

He ain't nothing impressive but he's a little bit above average.

Ziggy Stardust
06-18-2011, 11:32 PM
lol wat? Toney would have turned Lacy inside out. He was way better than Lacy and stylistically would have had a field day with him as well. Lacy certainly wouldnt see the final bell.

Not only that, but Nigel Benn and Chris Eubank fought at Super-Middle and both of them destroy Lacy.

Poet

SCtrojansbaby
06-19-2011, 03:51 AM
Calslappy is and always will be a joke. Carl Froch has already surpassed him as a fighter

Jay Volcano
06-19-2011, 04:16 AM
Calzaghe was a bit overrated, like any other Briton fighter. He was a good boxer and nothing more, but Froch definitely didn't surpass him as a fighter (yet). I must say that the wins against Jeff Lacy and Bernard Hopkins were impressive.

Nick Name
06-19-2011, 05:37 AM
Calzaghe is a true great, no doubt about it. Froch is gonna surpass him anyway.

steeluv
06-19-2011, 05:42 AM
I mean 7 is reasonable because a top 100 ATG the lowest I'd give them is an 8 and I don't think Calzaghe is top 100. But is at least a 7.

Hopkins was an A level win would be an A+ if Hopkins was young though because speed killed him.

Jeff Lacey was a C win would be a B if he did more but since he hasn't done ***** a C because EVERYBODY thought he would win and thought he was the next big thing in boxing.

Kessler is a B level win. Reid & Eubanks are C level wins, Manfredo a D+. I mean it isn't nothing special. I think it's a 6 or 7 at the least. Because a full 10 is obviously an A+ level. 9.5 an A. 9 B+, 8.5 a B, 8 a B. 7.5 a C+. 7 a C, 6.5 a D+, 6 a D, ect. ect.

He ain't nothing impressive but he's a little bit above average.

Manfredo is the weakest opponent he had in years why even mention that one, I think because he is american and on a tv show someone is overrating. Bika and Veit were a class above that bum, beating Manfredo aint getting no points

Welsh Jon
06-19-2011, 11:45 AM
Against Lacy Calzaghe showcased boxing genius that I have only seen in one other Super-Middleweight (RJJ) Yes Lacy was overrated but he was hardly a bum. If you watched Calzaghe-Lacy and Calzaghe-Kessler and wasn't impressed with Joe's skills then there's nothing I can write to convince you cos it seemed pretty self-evident to me.

The Surgeon
06-19-2011, 12:04 PM
Against Lacy Calzaghe showcased boxing genius that I have only seen in one other Super-Middleweight (RJJ) Yes Lacy was overrated but he was hardly a bum. If you watched Calzaghe-Lacy and Calzaghe-Kessler and wasn't impressed with Joe's skills then there's nothing I can write to convince you cos it seemed pretty self-evident to me.

He really did slap the ***** outta Lacy!

He fought the fight of his life that night but it would have been even more impressive if he had managed to KO Jeff after hitting him with over 2.5 million shots

He showed flaws against a solid Kessler but he showed one of his best qualitys too - adaptability. The guy was very good, u dont beat a Mikkel Kessler if ur not very good. However i really think he is Way over rated and is so shockingly amaturish at times like for example that gif that was going about of him windmilling and missing at Hopkins

CarlosG815
06-19-2011, 12:07 PM
Joe Calzaghe is one of biggest frauds in the history of boxing.

He spent a career of fighting European bums in his backyard. He stepped up to fight Bernard Hopkins when Hopkins was 43 years old, and Bernard put him on his ass in the first round, outboxed, counterpunched, and landed the bigger and more effective shots. Joe Calzaghe lost a unanimous decision that night but Bernard was robbed.

He then fought a Roy Jones who isn't even relevant to the sport anymore. The same Roy Jones that was KO'd in one round vs Danny Green and KO'd brutally by Lebedev is the same Roy Jones that took Calzaghe to war for 12 rounds.

Calzaghe is truly a joke and a fraud and history will remember him for exactly what he is. Outside of Britain, Calzaghe isn't held in any type of positive regard and for good reason.

The Surgeon
06-19-2011, 12:07 PM
Manfredo is the weakest opponent he had in years why even mention that one, I think because he is american and on a tv show someone is overrating. Bika and Veit were a class above that bum, beating Manfredo aint getting no points That Manfredo stoppage was SHOCKING too along with some others that have inflated his KO %

CarlosG815
06-19-2011, 12:10 PM
That Manfredo stoppage was SHOCKING too along with some others that have inflated his KO %

Many of his stoppages were just awful. Calzaghe was a well managed pampered baby who knew all the right people who could pad his record to help sell fights. A fighter with his unappealing, boring style could never sell a fight, hence the reason why some of his fights were stopped without him even landing a punch - literally. Joe Calzaghe had fights stopped in his favor WITHOUT LANDING A PUNCH.

There is video evidence of this fraud and it's a stain on boxing just like Calzaghe - a crap stain on the underpants of boxing.

The Surgeon
06-19-2011, 12:12 PM
There is video evidence of this fraud and it's a stain on boxing just like Calzaghe - a crap stain on the underpants of boxing.

Lol I wish i could green u Carlos!

Ziggy Stardust
06-19-2011, 12:22 PM
I personally think Fraud Gayweather is the human skidmark on boxing's tighty whities but that's just me :chuckle9:

Poet

Welsh Jon
06-19-2011, 12:34 PM
He really did slap the ***** outta Lacy!

He fought the fight of his life that night but it would have been even more impressive if he had managed to KO Jeff after hitting him with over 2.5 million shots

He showed flaws against a solid Kessler but he showed one of his best qualitys too - adaptability. The guy was very good, u dont beat a Mikkel Kessler if ur not very good. However i really think he is Way over rated and is so shockingly amaturish at times like for example that gif that was going about of him windmilling and missing at Hopkins

I agree with him being amateurish, for all my years of Calzaghe fandom it made me sick to the stomach to watch his clowning against RJJ. Who did he think he was impressing? He was beating up the broken shell of a once great fighter, his showboating just made him look a dick.

The problem with Calzaghe is most people seem to rate him one of 2 ways. They either think he's an all time great cos he retired undefeated, or they think he's a massive fraud. The truth is somewhere in between, he was a good fighter who dominated a weak division, who really should have pushed himself harder.

Welsh Jon
06-19-2011, 12:37 PM
That Manfredo stoppage was SHOCKING too along with some others that have inflated his KO %

Manfredo was out of his depth, if the ref had stopped it during the National anthems it would have been a fair call.

Ziggy Stardust
06-19-2011, 12:39 PM
I agree with him being amateurish, for all my years of Calzaghe fandom it made me sick to the stomach to watch his clowning against RJJ. Who did he think he was impressing? He was beating up the broken shell of a once great fighter, his showboating just made him look a dick.

The problem with Calzaghe is most people seem to rate him one of 2 ways. They either think he's an all time great cos he retired undefeated, or they think he's a massive fraud. The truth is somewhere in between, he was a good fighter who dominated a weak division, who really should have pushed himself harder.

A fair asessment. The biggest reason you get people thinking he's a fraud, though, is because of guys like JoeyZags who run around proclaiming him to be the p4p GOAT.

Poet

IronDanHamza
06-19-2011, 01:08 PM
Like I said, Calzaghe was a capable fighter. He showed that when he stepped up in his competition (which wasn't often)

Lacy and Kessler were good wins and the way he beat them was very good. But, they are good wins at best. Nothing to really shout about in all honesty.

His best win is Kessler who is a good fighter but far from a great fighter.

But, that, along with Hopkins, is all he really has to his name.

Simply cannot see how that is an all time great fighter.

The Surgeon
06-19-2011, 01:16 PM
Manfredo was out of his depth, if the ref had stopped it during the National anthems it would have been a fair call.

Lol iv gotta spread the green or id be hitting u up for this!


Also the last post before this was a fair assesment, and i respect that. Its the fanboys who claim he is the GOAT ect that do him no favours really, they turn off everybody else to him

Forza
06-19-2011, 05:34 PM
GOAT SMW, too bad he's white so he gets no recognition.

He would stomp a mudhole in either ward or frochs face

Sick/
06-19-2011, 05:48 PM
he is very underrated on here.


top 30 ATG easily

Ziggy Stardust
06-19-2011, 06:13 PM
he is very underrated on here.


top 30 ATG easily

Excuse me while I go vomit now that you've insulted the 100+ LEGITIMATE greats who belong ahead of Caslapzghe on any all-time p4p list :puke:

Poet

IronDanHamza
06-19-2011, 06:14 PM
GOAT SMW, too bad he's white so he gets no recognition.

He would stomp a mudhole in either ward or frochs face

Absolutely.

It's about time Harry Greb, Benny Leonard and Willie Pep got some credit around here also.

IronDanHamza
06-19-2011, 06:16 PM
he is very underrated on here.


top 30 ATG easily

:lol1: :lol1:

I would love to see that Top 30 of yours.

The_Demon
06-19-2011, 10:48 PM
Im a huge Calzaghe fan but try not too be biased when assesing him,i certainly wouldnt say hes a 'true great' but i do think he was a very good fighter and had an unorthodox style which made him very difficult too fight,his resume could be better thats for sure,but i dont think the blame lies solely with him for the fights that didnt happen,afterall it was Hopkins who walked away from their agreed deal in 2001

JAB5239
06-20-2011, 01:14 AM
GOAT SMW, too bad he's white so he gets no recognition.

He would stomp a mudhole in either ward or frochs face

What exactly does the color of his skin have to do with where people rate him? Im white and I think he has a very weak resume that prevents him from ever making the top 50 all time greats list. I'd certainly be interested in where you rank him all time p4p though.

RubenSonny
06-20-2011, 08:17 AM
Excuse me while I go vomit now that you've insulted the 100+ LEGITIMATE greats who belong ahead of Caslapzghe on any all-time p4p list :puke:

Poet

:rofl:

Absolutely.

It's about time Harry Greb, Benny Leonard and Willie Pep got some credit around here also.

:rofl:


What exactly does the color of his skin have to do with where people rate him? Im white and I think he has a very weak resume that prevents him from ever making the top 50 all time greats list. I'd certainly be interested in where you rank him all time p4p though.

Self-hating white....:boxing:

Barn
06-20-2011, 10:07 AM
:rofl:



:rofl:



Self-hating white....::boxing:

lmfao irl :lol1:

Ziggy Stardust
06-20-2011, 11:38 AM
:rofl:

:rofl:

Self-hating white....:boxing:

It's true though! If Calslapzhe were black Forza would be trashing him big time and telling us what a god Farl Croch is :hahahaha9:

Poet

JAB5239
06-20-2011, 05:52 PM
:rofl:



:rofl:



Self-hating white....:boxing:

<iframe width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/QHjzi7KuNLM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

RubenSonny
06-20-2011, 06:01 PM
<iframe width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/QHjzi7KuNLM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

:lol1::lol1:

PunchesNbuncheS
06-20-2011, 06:24 PM
Calzaghe is not an all time great at all but hes also not a fraud. He was a very good fighter who could adapt and didnt tire much. But the fact that he fought 2 real ATG'S when they were no longer in their primes and still got dropped by both of them leads me to believe that they would have disposed of him when they were in their primes. With Jones in his prime Calzaghe wouldnt have made it out of the 1st round and with a prime Hopkins he would have been schooled and stopped late.

Calzaghe: Good fighter-YES All time great-NO Fraud-NO

IMDAZED
06-20-2011, 08:51 PM
Calzaghe is definitely a great fighter and a Hall of Famer.

RubenSonny
06-20-2011, 09:06 PM
Calzaghe is definitely a great fighter and a Hall of Famer.

While he will get into the HOF I don't see how he is a great.

IMDAZED
06-20-2011, 09:09 PM
While he will get into the HOF I don't see how he is a great.

His quality of opposition isn't exactly the greatest and that's what hinders him from being an ATG. But his resume is solid and he defeated everyone he faced. Standout wins include Hopkins (could've gone either way but he, at worse, hung tough with an ATG), Kessler, Brewer and Sheika. The latter two were good wins at the time he had them. Annihilated the extremely overhyped Lacy. Don't give it much credit but with the exception of Ottke (and because Ottke didn't want the fight), he beat nearly every credible contender in his division over a long period of time.

RubenSonny
06-20-2011, 09:13 PM
His quality of opposition isn't exactly the greatest and that's what hinders him from being an ATG. But his resume is solid and he defeated everyone he faced. Standout wins include Hopkins (could've gone either way but he, at worse, hung tough with an ATG), Kessler, Brewer and Sheika. The latter two were good wins at the time he had them. Annihilated the extremely overhyped Lacy. Don't give it much credit but with the exception of Ottke (and because Ottke didn't want the fight), he beat nearly every credible contender in his division over a long period of time.

Ahh my bad, by great I thought you meant all-time great, fair enough.

IMDAZED
06-20-2011, 09:19 PM
Ahh my bad, by great I thought you meant all-time great, fair enough.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Cry2hN-xUQM/SHtjtOc_6FI/AAAAAAAAAGg/bArv-bN8cmI/s400/Obama+Hell+No.jpg

RubenSonny
06-20-2011, 09:23 PM
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Cry2hN-xUQM/SHtjtOc_6FI/AAAAAAAAAGg/bArv-bN8cmI/s400/Obama+Hell+No.jpg

:lol1::lol1: I actually got red K'ed for posting Obamas inauguration speech on here.

IMDAZED
06-20-2011, 09:25 PM
:lol1::lol1: I actually got red K'ed for posting Obamas inauguration speech on here.

I don't even know how to make head or tail of that.

Ziggy Stardust
06-20-2011, 09:43 PM
:lol1::lol1: I actually got red K'ed for posting Obamas inauguration speech on here.

Lemme guess: It was Wlad_Ownz aka Steelhammer2011? He left me red K with the message "dumb n*gg*r" before.....He didn't bother to check out that I'm white as Casper The Friggin' Ghost :hahahaha9:

Poet

Wild Blue Yonda
06-21-2011, 02:04 AM
Neither a true great, or an over-rated fraud.

IronDanHamza
06-21-2011, 05:35 AM
His quality of opposition isn't exactly the greatest and that's what hinders him from being an ATG. But his resume is solid and he defeated everyone he faced. Standout wins include Hopkins (could've gone either way but he, at worse, hung tough with an ATG), Kessler, Brewer and Sheika. The latter two were good wins at the time he had them. Annihilated the extremely overhyped Lacy. Don't give it much credit but with the exception of Ottke (and because Ottke didn't want the fight), he beat nearly every credible contender in his division over a long period of time.

That's not actually true, DAZED.

Whether it was his fault or not, I'm not going to get into that draining argument.

There were alot of fighters that were at the top of Calzaghes division across his lack luster reign at SMW which he ending up never getting into the ring with.

IMDAZED
06-21-2011, 07:31 AM
That's not actually true, DAZED.

Whether it was his fault or not, I'm not going to get into that draining argument.

There were alot of fighters that were at the top of Calzaghes division across his lack luster reign at SMW which he ending up never getting into the ring with.

Who are you referring to - maybe some slipped my mind.

RubenSonny
06-21-2011, 09:10 AM
Lemme guess: It was Wlad_Ownz aka Steelhammer2011? He left me red K with the message "dumb n*gg*r" before.....He didn't bother to check out that I'm white as Casper The Friggin' Ghost :hahahaha9:

Poet

:lol1: It was actually the history sections very own tomato can, RFPROBOX.

IronDanHamza
06-21-2011, 09:18 AM
Who are you referring to - maybe some slipped my mind.

Sven Ottke
Bruno Girard
Antwun Echols
Eric Lucas
Anthony Mundine
Danny Green
Marcus Beyer
Liborado Andrade
Lucia Bute
Thomas Tate

Were all top 5 contenders at one point or another during Calzaghe's reign.

I undersand he couldn't fight all of them and someof them weren't his fault. But, that makes no difference to me. The fact is he didn't fight Top ranked fighters pretty much his entire title reign.

His whole career consisted of only 3 fighters who were ranked in the Top 5 of the respective division he was fighting in.

Which is, in a word, pathetic.

IMDAZED
06-21-2011, 09:50 AM
Sven Ottke
Bruno Girard
Antwun Echols
Eric Lucas
Anthony Mundine
Danny Green
Marcus Beyer
Liborado Andrade
Lucia Bute
Thomas Tate

Were all top 5 contenders at one point or another during Calzaghe's reign.

I undersand he couldn't fight all of them and someof them weren't his fault. But, that makes no difference to me. The fact is he didn't fight Top ranked fighters pretty much his entire title reign.

His whole career consisted of only 3 fighters who were ranked in the Top 5 of the respective division he was fighting in.

Which is, in a word, pathetic.

Yeah, you got me there :lol1:

Ziggy Stardust
06-21-2011, 11:40 AM
:lol1: It was actually the history sections very own tomato can, RFPROBOX.

I'm familier with him.....and I'm also pretty damn sure he's someone's alt. I just haven't been able to pin down whose.....yet :cool9:

Poet

Welsh Jon
06-21-2011, 08:47 PM
Sven Ottke
Bruno Girard
Antwun Echols
Eric Lucas
Anthony Mundine
Danny Green
Marcus Beyer
Liborado Andrade
Lucia Bute
Thomas Tate

Were all top 5 contenders at one point or another during Calzaghe's reign.

I undersand he couldn't fight all of them and someof them weren't his fault. But, that makes no difference to me. The fact is he didn't fight Top ranked fighters pretty much his entire title reign.

His whole career consisted of only 3 fighters who were ranked in the Top 5 of the respective division he was fighting in.

Which is, in a word, pathetic.

Sven Ottke never fought outside Germany. He had a reputation for getting dodgy "wins" from judges scorecard, so you can't really blame Joe for not going there.

Bruno Girad won the Super Middleweight title in 2000, and moved up to Light-heavyweight in 2001, there was only a small window of opportunity for this fight too happen, and I can't remember there being any clamour for it.

Antwun Echols would have been a decent challenger, but he's no better than Charles Brewer or Byron Mitchell was, I don't see how he could be classed as a gap on Joe's CV. If he had of fought him Joe would have won, and then Joe haters would have dismissed him as a "nobody" just like they do with Brewer and Mitchell even though both of those won World titles at Super-Middleweight which Echols never did.

Eric Lucas, really Eric Lucas? The guy who lost to Glenn Catley? The guy whose best win was over Omar Sheika? He would have been better than a lot of the guys Joe fought, but how can he be described as a gap on Joe's CV? Again if Joe had fought he would have won, and then everyone would be saying he was just another bum that Joe beat up.

Antony Mundine was a solid fighter, but he did lose every round when he fought Calzaghe victim Kessler, despite having hometown advantage

Fair play I'd have loved to have seen him fight Danny Green. That'd have been some brawl.

Markus Beyer never fought outside Germany and as I said before German judges did not have a good reputation at the time. Beyer was not in Calzaghe's league anyway.

Librado Andrade only became world ranked around the time Joe was fighting Lacy, Bika, Manfredo and Kessler. Apart from Manfredo Andrade was inferior to all of these guys.

Lucian Bute was unknown outside of Canada until around the time Joe moved up to light-heavyweight to fight B-Hop.

Thomas Tate never held a world title, he was an unknown in the UK, so why would he have been on Joe's radar?

Basically the only one of these fights that people actually wanted to see happen is Ottke, and Ottke didn't want to leave Germany and Joe didn't want to get robbed on the road. None of the guys on this list would have enhanced Joe's CV all that much, not even Ottke really. Truth was Joe dominated a weak division.

IronDanHamza
06-21-2011, 08:55 PM
Sven Ottke never fought outside Germany. He had a reputation for getting dodgy "wins" from judges scorecard, so you can't really blame Joe for not going there.

Bruno Girad won the Super Middleweight title in 2000, and moved up to Light-heavyweight in 2001, there was only a small window of opportunity for this fight too happen, and I can't remember there being any clamour for it.

Antwun Echols would have been a decent challenger, but he's no better than Charles Brewer or Byron Mitchell was, I don't see how he could be classed as a gap on Joe's CV. If he had of fought him Joe would have won, and then Joe haters would have dismissed him as a "nobody" just like they do with Brewer and Mitchell even though both of those won World titles at Super-Middleweight which Echols never did.

Eric Lucas, really Eric Lucas? The guy who lost to Glenn Catley? The guy whose best win was over Omar Sheika? He would have been better than a lot of the guys Joe fought, but how can he be described as a gap on Joe's CV? Again if Joe had fought he would have won, and then everyone would be saying he was just another bum that Joe beat up.

Antony Mundine was a solid fighter, but he did lose every round when he fought Calzaghe victim Kessler, despite having hometown advantage

Fair play I'd have loved to have seen him fight Danny Green. That'd have been some brawl.

Markus Beyer never fought outside Germany and as I said before German judges did not have a reputation at the time. Beyer was not in Calzaghe's league anyway.

Librado Andrade only became world ranked around the time Joe was fighting Lacy, Bika, Manfredo and Kessler. Apart from Manfredo Andrade was inferior to all of these guys.

Lucian Bute was unknown outside of Canada until around the time Joe moved up to light-heavyweight to fight B-Hop.

Thomas Tate never held a world title, he was an unknown in the UK, so why would he have been on Joe's radar?

Basically the only one of these fights that people actually wanted to see happen is Ottke, and Ottke didn't want to leave Germany and Joe didn't want to get robbed on the road. None of the guys on this list would have enhanced Joe's CV all that much, not even Ottke really. Truth was Joe dominated a weak division.

Like I said, I'm not getting into the who, who, what, where, when and why's to these names and why, how or if they should have happened.

And I merely listing the fighters that were ranked in the Top 5 of the Super Middleweight division during Joe Calzaghe's reign that he didn't fight.

Am I claiming he ducked them? God no.

Am I claimed he should have fought them all? God no.

Am I claiming it's his fault he fought none of them? God no.

Again, I am simply listing fighters that were ranked in the Top 5 that he didn't fight.

Most of them, there was no public demand for, literally at all. And you're right most probably people would laugh them off regardless.

But, what he would have to gain from taking any of those fights, is; a fighter to add to his resume that was ranked in the Top 5 when he fought them.

Because as of right now, all he has is; Kessler, Lacy and Hopkins. And for one reason or another, no matter how long we go over and why's and how's of his possible opponents the fact remains that that is all he has in terms of top ranked opposition.

Welsh Jon
06-22-2011, 01:35 AM
Like I said, I'm not getting into the who, who, what, where, when and why's to these names and why, how or if they should have happened.

And I merely listing the fighters that were ranked in the Top 5 of the Super Middleweight division during Joe Calzaghe's reign that he didn't fight.

Am I claiming he ducked them? God no.

Am I claimed he should have fought them all? God no.

Am I claiming it's his fault he fought none of them? God no.

Again, I am simply listing fighters that were ranked in the Top 5 that he didn't fight.

Most of them, there was no public demand for, literally at all. And you're right most probably people would laugh them off regardless.

But, what he would have to gain from taking any of those fights, is; a fighter to add to his resume that was ranked in the Top 5 when he fought them.

Because as of right now, all he has is; Kessler, Lacy and Hopkins. And for one reason or another, no matter how long we go over and why's and how's of his possible opponents the fact remains that that is all he has in terms of top ranked opposition.

Were all of the guys you listed really rated top 5 during Calzaghe's reign? I'm guessing most of them were top 10. Calzaghe has fought several top 10 guys. Kessler, Lacy and Bika were certainly rated top 10 by the Ring magazine, Kessler and Bika are still. He fought, Brewer and Mitchell within 18 months of "losing" their belts to Ottke, I'm pretty sure they were ranked in the top 10 at the time. Robin Reid was ranked in the top 10 by the Ring when he lost to Lacy in 2005, so I'm pretty sure he would have been ranked in 1999, about a year after he'd lost his title. He fought Woodhall a year after he'd lost his world title so he was likely to still be ranked in the top 10. Even Peter Manfredo was ranked in the top 10 by the Ring when he "challenged" Calzaghe.

I'm not saying they are all the cream of the crop but they were top 10 ranked at the time of facing Calzaghe, and better than some of the guys you listed.

I'm not saying Calzaghe is top 100 ATG pound for pound, just that he's the no 1 Super-Middleweight of all time. Honestly name me a Super-Middleweight with a better CV.

IronDanHamza
06-22-2011, 07:33 AM
Were all of the guys you listed really rated top 5 during Calzaghe's reign? I'm guessing most of them were top 10. Calzaghe has fought several top 10 guys. Kessler, Lacy and Bika were certainly rated top 10 by the Ring magazine, Kessler and Bika are still. He fought, Brewer and Mitchell within 18 months of "losing" their belts to Ottke, I'm pretty sure they were ranked in the top 10 at the time. Robin Reid was ranked in the top 10 by the Ring when he lost to Lacy in 2005, so I'm pretty sure he would have been ranked in 1999, about a year after he'd lost his title. He fought Woodhall a year after he'd lost his world title so he was likely to still be ranked in the top 10. Even Peter Manfredo was ranked in the top 10 by the Ring when he "challenged" Calzaghe.

I'm not saying they are all the cream of the crop but they were top 10 ranked at the time of facing Calzaghe, and better than some of the guys you listed.

I'm not saying Calzaghe is top 100 ATG pound for pound, just that he's the no 1 Super-Middleweight of all time. Honestly name me a Super-Middleweight with a better CV.

Every last one of them were ranked in the Top 5 during Calzaghes reign, yes.

Calzaghe fought guys in the Top 10 like you mentioned. Everyone one of them except Woodhall (I think). But, none, were in the Top 5 when he fought them.

Some fough used to be in the Top 5 like Reid, Brewer and Mitchell but weren't, however, in the Top 5 when he fought them.

As I said, I'm not saying they would have done alot for his legacy. I'm simply listing the fighters ranked in the Top 5 during his reign that he didn't fight. In response tp another poster who said he fought all contenders, which he didn't.

Calzaghe probably has the best resume at 168 of all time. But then you have to conider that Ottke and Kessler are probably #2 and #3.

Just throwing that out there.

Welsh Jon
06-22-2011, 01:27 PM
Ok I'm bowing out of this thread, seems to be going in circles now.

IronDanHamza, I've enjoyed debating with you, your clearly an intelligent, well-informed guy. You stick to the facts and don't take cheap shots which is always good.

Every time I start out on a new boxing message board I get dragged into at least one thread like this, I can't help myself. It just really annoys me when Joe gets called a fraud, cos he's not. He wasn't a protected champion who had a long reign by staying away from anyone who was a threat, it's just there were very few real threats to him. If he'd taken the initiative and moved up in weight sooner he'd be a lot better respected , but he didn't so he has to be content with being remembered as the best champion of a crappy division.

If it wasn't for the emotional attachment for the guy, based mainly on geographical factors I probably wouldn't defend the guy so fiercely.

People may hate him, but he'll always be my boy!