View Full Version : 1 Billion: Most under and overated fighters in history


IIIX JACK XIII
06-16-2011, 03:31 PM
Who are your picks for the most underrated and overrated fighters in the history of boxing.

IronDanHamza
06-16-2011, 03:52 PM
Underrated - Harold Johnson

Overrated - Probably Tyson but only because of how causual fans rate him as opposed to historians who don't really overrate him at all.

IronDanHamza
06-16-2011, 03:53 PM
I think Pone Kingpetch is also in the running for most underrated fighter ever considering he hasn't even been inducted into the HOF.

The Surgeon
06-16-2011, 05:28 PM
Underrated - Harold Johnson Overrated - Probably Tyson but only because of how causual fans rate him as opposed to historians who don't really overrate him at all. Harold Johnson is a good shout

As for OVER rated id say Pac Man, he's a GREAT fighter and deserves alot of credit and respect but he is not THE GOAT as ive heard MANY claim and its not even just casual fans like u mean with Mike

IronDanHamza
06-16-2011, 06:12 PM
Harold Johnson is a good shout

As for OVER rated id say Pac Man, he's a GREAT fighter and deserves alot of credit and respect but he is not THE GOAT as ive heard MANY claim and its not even just casual fans like u mean with Mike

I would agree that Pacquaio is overrated in the sense that people are talking as if he is a Top 30 ATG which is something I disagree with.

I wouldn't say he is amongst most overrated fighters of all time because he is a certified ATG. It is more to do with the hype that surrounds the fact he is active and secondly because he is very exciting.

Think about 4 years ago, they were saying the same thing about Mayweather. And the same thing happened in Tyson and Chavez' day.

But I do agree he is overrated in that sense.

$BloodyNate$
06-16-2011, 07:30 PM
Overrated: Lennox Lewis, it isn't hatin', I just don't feel he should be a top 5 heavyweight of all time because he had 2 embarrassing KO losses to C-B level fighters and never really had that career defining win.

Underrated: Of course Harold Johnson like Iron brought up today and yesterday. Also give a shoutout to Jake Lamotta. Probably just because he don't get talked about enough, the man was a great middleweight, arguably the greatest chin, and fought the greatest fighter of all time SIX ****IN TIMES!

SBleeder
06-16-2011, 07:56 PM
Most underrated: Gilberto Roman. One of the greatest Mexican fighters of all time, and IMO the greatest 115 fighter ever. Year after year, the Hall of Fame snubs him.

IronDanHamza
06-17-2011, 10:58 AM
Overrated: Lennox Lewis, it isn't hatin', I just don't feel he should be a top 5 heavyweight of all time because he had 2 embarrassing KO losses to C-B level fighters and never really had that career defining win.

Underrated: Of course Harold Johnson like Iron brought up today and yesterday. Also give a shoutout to Jake Lamotta. Probably just because he don't get talked about enough, the man was a great middleweight, arguably the greatest chin, and fought the greatest fighter of all time SIX ****IN TIMES!

I think Jake Lamotta is underrated in the sense that alot of people don't realise what he did outside of the 6 Robinson fights in which he did alot and beat alot of good fighters.

But I wouldn't say he is amongst the most underrated fighters of all time considering if 9/10 casual fans know that he beat Sugar Ray Robinson and he had a blockbuster film made about his life starring one of the greatest actors of all time.

When there's fighters like Harold Johnson who is a certifed ATG who beat some of THE greatest fighters of all time, multiple HOF'ers and ATG's and people don't even know who he is. The amount of people I have had PM me asking who is the person in my display picture is remarkable considering he is such a great fighter.

Along with a long list of fighters like Kingpetch and like Sbleeder mentioned Roman who incredibely haven't even been inducted into the HOF and most likely never will.

Barn
06-17-2011, 12:06 PM
Overrated - Sugar Ray Leonard, Stanley Ketchel(by some.)

Underrated - Mickey Walker, Ezzard Charles, Bob Fitzsimmons.

RubenSonny
06-17-2011, 12:23 PM
Overrated: Julio Cesar Chavez, L.Lewis, V.Klitschko, Oscar De La Hoya.

I bolded the last 3 because I think them being active/recently active plays a big factor to be fair.

Underrated: Harold Johnson, Holman Williams, Eddie Booker.

Only started having a proper look at Williams resume and its simply outstanding.

IronDanHamza
06-17-2011, 01:19 PM
Overrated: Julio Cesar Chavez, L.Lewis, V.Klitschko, Oscar De La Hoya.

I bolded the last 3 because I think them being active/recently active plays a big factor to be fair.

Underrated: Harold Johnson, Holman Williams, Eddie Booker.

Only started having a proper look at Williams resume and its simply outstanding.

Exceptional choices on your underrated list.

I think those kind of names are much more underrated than the likes of Lamotta, Fitzsimmons, Walker and Charles, who are underrated in their own right. But, the average fan atleast knows their name. The majority of fans don't even know who those listed names are.

Great choice with Holman Williams also. Anyone who beats; Burley x2, Marshall x2, Moore, and Eddie Booker and are hardly known is just criminally underrated.

I think it's more to do with the fact he has an insane amount of loss's and the amount of times he was strangely beaten by weaker foes. But what he did do, was astonishing. Let's not forget the man's level of competition in general, which might even stretch to be one of the most impressive I have ever seen. Which is a bold statment. I'm glad he is finally in the HOF and it is long long overdue.

Eddie Booker on the other hand, a great fighter, but the least great out of your choices in my opinion. He doesn't have the loss's that Williams has but he also doesn't have the quality that Williams has. Atleast not extended quality. Surely, worth HOF though. I don't believe he has been inducted, has he?

Ziggy Stardust
06-17-2011, 01:56 PM
Overrated - Sugar Ray Leonard, Stanley Ketchel(by some.)

Underrated - Mickey Walker, Ezzard Charles, Bob Fitzsimmons.

I agree with your underrateds but not sure how Ray Leonard and Stanley Ketchal are overrated. Hardly anyone knows Ketchel outside a few of us history scholars and Ray Leonard, in his pre-retina issues prime, was everything people say he was. Maybe his comeback circuses (and the fact that he was basically a pr1ck) were off-putting nicht wahr?

Poet

RubenSonny
06-17-2011, 01:57 PM
Exceptional choices on your underrated list.

I think those kind of names are much more underrated than the likes of Lamotta, Fitzsimmons, Walker and Charles, who are underrated in their own right. But, the average fan atleast knows their name. The majority of fans don't even know who those listed names are.

Great choice with Holman Williams also. Anyone who beats; Burley x2, Marshall x2, Moore, and Eddie Booker and are hardly known is just criminally underrated.

I think it's more to do with the fact he has an insane amount of loss's and the amount of times he was strangely beaten by weaker foes. But what he did do, was astonishing. Let's not forget the man's level of competition in general, which might even stretch to be one of the most impressive I have ever seen. Which is a bold statment. I'm glad he is finally in the HOF and it is long long overdue.

Eddie Booker on the other hand, a great fighter, but the least great out of your choices in my opinion. He doesn't have the loss's that Williams has but he also doesn't have the quality that Williams has. Atleast not extended quality. Surely, worth HOF though. I don't believe he has been inducted, has he?

You make good points.

I wouldn't say his losses are particularly strange a whole lot of it was when he was past prime, he was already considered past it by the close of the war (around the Cerdan/Lamotta fights). He has a few losses in his prime to lesser fighters but I think that can be chalked up to fighting very regularly against tough competition. Also he was only ever stopped 3 times with 2 by near-prime ATGs in Burley and Moore and the last by Basora when both fighters were shot. I think I should add Cocoa kid to the list as well, who got the better of a series with Williams, going 8-3-2. Probably the rest of the black murderers row too. Booker isn't in the HOF, he did stop Moore and outpoint Williams while being partially blind, I'd say that those 2 are huge achievements.

IronDanHamza
06-17-2011, 02:10 PM
You make good points.

I wouldn't say his losses are particularly strange whole lot it was when he was past prime, he was already considered past it by the close of the war (around the Cerdan/Lamotta fights). He has a few losses in his prime to lesser fighters but I think that can be chalked up to fighting very regularly against tough competition. Also he was only ever stopped by 3 times with 2 by near-prime ATGs Burley and Moore and the last by Basora when both fighters were shot. I think I should add Cocoa kid to the list as well, who got the better of a series with Williams, going 8-3-2. Probably the rest of the black murderers row too. Booker isn't in the HOF, he did stop Moore and outpoint Williams while being partially blind, I'd say that those 2 are huge achievements.

Wow, I was about to do a thread on Cocoa Kid. I mean, literally just about to but I thought I would come in here first seeing you had replied.

I agree with the rest of your post and I tried to green you but I have to pass it around first.

RubenSonny
06-17-2011, 02:30 PM
Wow, I was about to do a thread on Cocoa Kid. I mean, literally just about to but I thought I would come in here first seeing you had replied.

I agree with the rest of your post and I tried to green you but I have to pass it around first.

Make the thread...

On a side note, I'm really Williams is really creeping up my rankings.

SCtrojansbaby
06-17-2011, 06:08 PM
Overrated - Pernell Whitaker is a joke lets look at his top 4 "wins"
Chavez - wasn't a win even though Pernell had a built in advantage with the weight
Ramirez - lol lost the first fight didn't beat him until Ramirez was clearly past his prime
Oscar - Pernell got clearly beat
Nelson - Isn't a lightweight never was of course that is where Pernell beat him but hey at least he actually won the fight unlike the other 3



Underrated - Marco Antonio Barrera 2nd best Mexican fighter of all time but is rarely acknowledged as such. He has one of the great resumes of the past 40 years with wins over Morales x2 Tapia Hamed Ayala Mckinney Kelley Juarez etc

Scott9945
06-17-2011, 06:11 PM
I agree with your underrateds but not sure how Ray Leonard and Stanley Ketchal are overrated. Hardly anyone knows Ketchel outside a few of us history scholars and Ray Leonard, in his pre-retina issues prime, was everything people say he was. Maybe his comeback circuses (and the fact that he was basically a pr1ck) were off-putting nicht wahr?

Poet

I'm also a little confused about Ketchell. He had an outstanding record for someone killed in his best years, yet when the ATG middles are mentioned he is almost always behind SRR, Monzon, Hagler, Greb, etc.

IronDanHamza
06-17-2011, 06:43 PM
You're retarded go away :jerk0ff9:

Is he a retard or is he a masterful troll?

I'm starting to believe that he can't honestly believe what he says and his whole stay on this website is to wind people up saying outrageous things.

I mean, it has to be.

Terry A
06-17-2011, 11:21 PM
Under-rated.....SBleeder beat me to it. Gilberto Roman for sure. Also Gene Tunney, Ezzard Charles & Larry Holmes at heavyweight. Each followed a great champion (Dempsey, Louis & Ali) and for whatever reason, these three guys never seem to get as high a ranking as I think they should. Especially Tunney.

Carlos Zarate seems under-rated. He really won that fight against Pintor & had a tremendous record until Gomez blasted him.

Charlie Burley is under-rated.

Harry Wills. All we ever hear about is Sam langford this & Sam Langford that. Harry Wills beat Sam langford 13-14 times yet some rate Langford over Wills.

But in order, my top 5 picks would be Gene Tunney, Harry Wills, Gilberto Roman, Larry Holmes & Ezzard Charles

Over-rated- Bob Fitzsimmons at heavyweight (check out his record as a heavyweight), Jack Johnson & Sam Langford, in that order. As I mentioned above, Harry Wills had the far superior record compared to Langford, but much like Johnson, someone once said that Langford was great and that's been "polly-parroted" till today.

Ziggy Stardust
06-17-2011, 11:27 PM
Harry Wills. All we ever hear about is Sam langford this & Sam Langford that. Harry Wills beat Sam langford 13-14 times yet some rate Langford over Wills.

As I mentioned above, Harry Wills had the far superior record compared to Langford, but much like Johnson, someone once said that Langford was great and that's been "polly-parroted" till today.

To be fair though Langford was Middleweight fighting Heavies while Wills was a full-fledged Heavy. Head to head, Wills was by and large in his prime when the two fought while Langford was past it.

Poet

Terry A
06-18-2011, 01:13 AM
To be fair though Langford was Middleweight fighting Heavies while Wills was a full-fledged Heavy. Head to head, Wills was by and large in his prime when the two fought while Langford was past it.

Poet

I still think that had they met in their respective primes, Wills would still have beaten Langford.

You brought up my exact point about Sam being a fearless middleweight who willingly went in against full fledged heavyweights. Yet, Jack Johnson is always given so much credit for beating Sam langford. That's always been one of my biggest beefs with Johnson. He gets so much cred from beating guys that he towered over.

Ziggy Stardust
06-18-2011, 01:38 AM
I still think that had they met in their respective primes, Wills would still have beaten Langford.

You brought up my exact point about Sam being a fearless middleweight who willingly went in against full fledged heavyweights. Yet, Jack Johnson is always given so much credit for beating Sam langford. That's always been one of my biggest beefs with Johnson. He gets so much cred from beating guys that he towered over.

And yet despite being a past-prime blind in one eye Middleweight Langford still KOed Wills twice. And during his prime Langford fought on pretty even terms with Sam McVea and Joe Jeanette who were more his contemporaries than Wills was: Both of whom are said to be equally as good as Wills. It really didn't matter if you WERE a Heavyweight: Langford had a great chance of smoking your azz regardless. Which, of course, shows that weight isn't as big an advantage as people make it out to be. Confusious say: "It not size of dog in fight but size of fight in dog" :boxing:

Poet

Great John L
06-18-2011, 12:24 PM
Overrated: Mike Tyson
Underrated: Ezzard Charles?

JAB5239
06-18-2011, 12:29 PM
Under-rated.....SBleeder beat me to it. Gilberto Roman for sure. Also Gene Tunney, Ezzard Charles & Larry Holmes at heavyweight. Each followed a great champion (Dempsey, Louis & Ali) and for whatever reason, these three guys never seem to get as high a ranking as I think they should. Especially Tunney.

Tunney was a great fighter but his resume a heavyweight is to thin to rank him inside the top 15. If he had stuck around another 2 years and beat Sharkey and Schmeling his all time stick would have soared in my opinion.


Harry Wills. All we ever hear about is Sam langford this & Sam Langford that. Harry Wills beat Sam langford 13-14 times yet some rate Langford over Wills


Wills had Langfords number but Sam was past his best for many of their fights and 6 years older, plus blind in his left eye after the first Fulton fight. While I wouldn't rank Harry above Sam I do agree he is under rated.

Greatest1942
06-20-2011, 05:28 AM
Wills had Langfords number but Sam was past his best for many of their fights and 6 years older, plus blind in his left eye after the first Fulton fight. While I wouldn't rank Harry above Sam I do agree he is under rated.

Right ...

But to me from what I have read no one is as under rated as Holman Williams...Charley Burley gets a lot of attention..but this guy was ducked too al lot...Eddie Futch held Williams in the highest regard. And I do respect Eddie's opinion. Still Holman is relatively less known.

JAB5239
06-20-2011, 06:28 PM
Right ...

But to me from what I have read no one is as under rated as Holman Williams...Charley Burley gets a lot of attention..but this guy was ducked too al lot...Eddie Futch held Williams in the highest regard. And I do respect Eddie's opinion. Still Holman is relatively less known.

Williams is under rated as are many of the black murderers row.

Greatest1942
06-21-2011, 04:39 AM
Williams is under rated as are many of the black murderers row.

Yes...a lot of the black murderers row were underrated. Still we hear a lot about Burley. Some guys are showing interest in him, which is great. I picked Holman because of the compliments he picked from his fellow boxers.

Eddie Futch called Williams (along with Burley) "the two greatest fighters [he] ever had the privalidge to see box" and said of Holman that he would "rather see him shadowbox than watch most other fighters in action". Eddie Futch did not give compliments easily.

He said again "Holman Williams was a great boxer, but he never got the recongnition because he wasn't a punhcer. He had the finesse of Ray Robinson but no punch." The reason Williams was a weak hitter wasn't to do with a lack of strength or technique, but brittle hands. By all accounts, he excelled in the art of uppercutting - where he could hit an opponent at such an angle where his metacarpals were not aligned in the same way and weren't bashing together. Even with these kind of praise , which no one except Burley got (even from teh black murderers row ) he is almost forgotten.

Williams beat some all time great fighters (Marshall, Booker, Burley, Cocoa Kid amongst them). If Zale fought Holman, I believe Williams would have come out the winner.

Daddy T
06-21-2011, 05:16 AM
Overrated - Lennox Lewis, (What prime ATG did he beat?)

both Klits (by some) - have made a career of beating nobodies no top wins over ATGs on either record biggest fighter on either CV is lewis and that was a loss.

Joe Calzaghe - Struggled against a past it Eubank - struggled against B rater Robin Reed - beat a long line of nobodies - beat up hype job Lacey - edged out kessler who is okay (okay is the most accurate description) - struggled against Hopkins - beat some pensioner claiming to be Roy Jones ... No wins v prime ATG imo and avoided the best in their primes.

Underrated - Tommy Loughrane, nobody ever mentions Tommy yet he schooled both Max Baer and a young Jim Braddock - had no punch but was the consummate boxer ... lost to the ambling alp but only because Carnea was allowed to practically wrestle the far far smaller tommy)

Larry Holmes - Long long reign very dominant great skills

Michael Spinks -perhaps not underrated by proper fans but to the casual he is only remembered as the guy that Tyson smashed and not the guy who ruled one of the toughest light heavy divisions ever and moved up to beat (hey thats what the judges said) the proper linear awesome (48-0 at the time) heavyweight champ

JAB5239
06-21-2011, 05:39 AM
Overrated - Lennox Lewis, (What prime ATG did he beat?)

both Klits (by some) - have made a career of beating nobodies no top wins over ATGs on either record biggest fighter on either CV is lewis and that was a loss.

Joe Calzaghe - Struggled against a past it Eubank - struggled against B rater Robin Reed - beat a long line of nobodies - beat up hype job Lacey - edged out kessler who is okay (okay is the most accurate description) - struggled against Hopkins - beat some pensioner claiming to be Roy Jones ... No wins v prime ATG imo and avoided the best in their primes.

Underrated - Tommy Loughrane, nobody ever mentions Tommy yet he schooled both Max Baer and a young Jim Braddock - had no punch but was the consummate boxer ... lost to the ambling alp but only because Carnea was allowed to practically wrestle the far far smaller tommy)

Larry Holmes - Long long reign very dominant great skills

Michael Spinks -perhaps not underrated by proper fans but to the casual he is only remembered as the guy that Tyson smashed and not the guy who ruled one of the toughest light heavy divisions ever and moved up to beat (hey thats what the judges said) the proper linear awesome (48-0 at the time) heavyweight champ

What prime all time great did Johnson, Dempsey, Marciano or Holmes beat? Losses on both Dempsey and Johnson's records can be construed as worse than those suffered and avenged by Lewis. Nobody seems to like to talk about Johnson's loss to Hart, or Dempsey's several losses to Willie Meehan, a guy who started his career at flyweight and was a fat heavyweight when Jack fought him. You see, this can be done with several great fighters. Lewis on the other hand is amongst the very few who beat every man he ever faced. Im not trying to blow him up, but if we're ask questions of fighters lets ask the questions for every fighter!

Daddy T
06-21-2011, 05:45 AM
What prime all time great did Johnson, Dempsey, Marciano or Holmes beat? Losses on both Dempsey and Johnson's records can be construed as worse than those suffered and avenged by Lewis. Nobody seems to like to talk about Johnson's loss to Hart, or Dempsey's several losses to Willie Meehan, a guy who started his career at flyweight and was a fat heavyweight when Jack fought him. You see, this can be done with several great fighters. Lewis on the other hand is amongst the very few who beat every man he ever faced. Im not trying to blow him up, but if we're ask questions of fighters lets ask the questions for every fighter!

i agree but I find that lots of people over here at least (maybe across the atlantic its different) regard Lewis as top 5 or 6 while hardly having holmes in their top twenty I'd have them ranked very close together and certainly think that Holmes is underrated compared to lewis - Lewis lost to guys he shouldn't have lost to in his prime Holmes didn't.

JAB5239
06-21-2011, 05:58 AM
i agree but I find that lots of people over here at least (maybe across the atlantic its different) regard Lewis as top 5 or 6 while hardly having holmes in their top twenty I'd have them ranked very close together and certainly think that Holmes is underrated compared to lewis - Lewis lost to guys he shouldn't have lost to in his prime Holmes didn't.

I have Holmes 3rd and Lewis 5th, all time. But we can just as easily question Holmes. He had two very close wins against Witherspoon and Carl Williams when both were a COMBINED 31-0 and never granted or looked for rematches to set the record straight. Now I had Larry the winner in both fights, but rematches should have been made, at the very least for Witherspoon who he had time to fight again.

12. frazier
11. Dempsey
10. Marciano
9. Holyfield
8. Liston
7. Tyson
6. Foreman
5. Lewis
4. Johnson
3. Holmes
2. Ali
1. Louis