View Full Version : Harold Johnson at Top 100 ATG. Agree or Disagree?


IronDanHamza
06-15-2011, 11:37 AM
I am inclined to think so and I don't see why not.

I have read plenty of Top 100 ATG lists, varying from Historians I see as legit, to the likes of Bert Sugar and even simply posters on forums.

The Ring Magazine had him at #80 out of the best 80 fighters from 1920-2000 but I can't recall ever seeing Harold Johnson amongst their Top 100.

Johnson is a HOF'er and the Lightweight Champion of the world albeit he won it as a vacant title, and in my opinion a Top 10 Light Heavyweight. Plenty have disagreed with me on that but I certainly believe he is.

He beat;

Henry Hall
Bert Lytell
Archie Moore
Bob Satterfield x2
Paul Andrews x2
Marty Mashall
Sonny Ray
Doug Jones
Gustav Scholz
Willie Pastrano
Henry Hank
Eddie Jones
Jimmy Bivins
Nino Valdes
Jimmy Slade x2
Ezzard Charles
Eddie Machen

All of which were Top 10, a handful Top 5. And a handful also went on to be ranked from Top 5 to #1 in their division after the bouts with Johnson. Which is a pretty solid resume If I ever saw one.

The obvious names that stand out on his resume are HOF'ers; Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore, Jimmy Bivins and Willie Pastrano. (I count Pastrano because Johnson won the fight regarldess to the fact they gave Pastrano the descion).Which are very impressive wins

Archie Moore had his number and that downplays his career a little having those 3 losses to him but this is Archie Moore we are talking about; A top 20 ATG and to some peoples standards a Top 10 ATG. Also, in one of their encounters I can't recall which one, Johnson was leading comfortabely in the fight going into the 14th but was stopped in the 14th.

Along with those names he has veyr solid wins such as; Satterfield, Valdez, Machen, Jones, amongst others.

To me, that is a Top 100 ATG level fighter, atleast.

What do you guys think?

Steak
06-15-2011, 12:58 PM
I dont even attempt to make a top 100 list, there are just too many fighters and too much criteria.

but anyone who could beat Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore and Jimmy Bivins among others sure as hell seems to me to be top 100 worthy.

RubenSonny
06-15-2011, 02:24 PM
Definately an all-time great.

cja07007
06-15-2011, 03:26 PM
I also am going to say that I don't have a top 100. I just don't know enough about every boxer to think I can make one worth anything. But he was no doubt in my mind an all-time great. Talk about a guy who fought everyone and had a ton of skill. He was a fighter who defined his era. Also I love the the way he setup his shots, stands out every time I see him fight.

Good highlight video that was on here a wile back

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XE8xqtIkXsk

The Surgeon
06-15-2011, 03:50 PM
He's first class and there's definately a case for him being top 100 when u look at that resume.

Still i wouldnt know where the hell to begin doing a top 100 so i'll reframe from making the call but like i said the guys First class

IronDanHamza
06-15-2011, 04:20 PM
I also am going to say that I don't have a top 100. I just don't know enough about every boxer to think I can make one worth anything. But he was no doubt in my mind an all-time great. Talk about a guy who fought everyone and had a ton of skill. He was a fighter who defined his era. Also I love the the way he setup his shots, stands out every time I see him fight.

Good highlight video that was on here a wile back

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XE8xqtIkXsk

Harold is one of my favourite fighters and one of the best textbook fighters I have ever seen. He's just amazing to watch. Even fights were he was past prime like Pastrano where he took him to school.

Very skilled, very talented, very gifted, can fight you going back and can fight you going forward, can beat you up on the inside and completely outclass you from the outside.

A great fighter.

IronDanHamza
06-15-2011, 04:22 PM
The consesus seems to be that he is a Top 100 ATG.

Seems strange that he is so rarely included on them in the lists I have seen.

IronDanHamza
06-15-2011, 04:26 PM
Another fun fact for you guys;

Harold Johnson was set to fight Sonny Liston in 1955 but was replaced by Marty Marhsall (The first man to beat Sonny Liston a few years prior) last minute due to an injury suffered in training by Johnson.

I would have to say that Johnson is lucky he got injured because Liston would have eaten him alive :lol1:

$BloodyNate$
06-15-2011, 04:52 PM
I think he definitely should be competing for a decent spot because he already definitely should get in. He beat Charles before Rocky got to him so that's a pretty decent win and beat Archie waaaaaay before Ali fought him so it's not like those 2 ATG's were majorly past their prime even if they were past it.

I don't think their like Calzaghe's win over Roy Jones, but more on the lines of Joe's win over Hopkins which I think is an A- win, then he has wins over some decent world champs so yeah it's a no brainier. Actually pretty ****in crazy he's forgotten like this.

Rockin'
06-15-2011, 05:00 PM
if every fighter who was to ever be called an all-time great had to produce a resume like that we wouldn't have many all-time greats.

Bill Miller praised him highly..................Rockin':boxing:

IronDanHamza
06-15-2011, 05:16 PM
I think he definitely should be competing for a decent spot because he already definitely should get in. He beat Charles before Rocky got to him so that's a pretty decent win and beat Archie waaaaaay before Ali fought him so it's not like those 2 ATG's were majorly past their prime even if they were past it.

I don't think their like Calzaghe's win over Roy Jones, but more on the lines of Joe's win over Hopkins which I think is an A- win, then he has wins over some decent world champs so yeah it's a no brainier. Actually pretty ****in crazy he's forgotten like this.

Archie hadn't been beaten in 36 fights prior to fighting Johnson, was 35 years of age and didn't lose a fight for his entire stay at LHW after that in which spanned of 21 fights. After he lost to Johnson he went on to beat Johnson in a rematch x2, Maxim, Olson X2 and Valdez all before he fought Marciano which was 4 years after Johnson beat him.

So I would strongly argue that win is much more legit and great than Calzaghes win over Hopkins considering Hopkins hadn't fought and beat a HOF'er many years prior to Calzaghe and hasn't beat one since then. Unlike Moore. And it is absolutely nothing like Calzaghes win over Roy Jones, nothing alike.

Ezzard Charles was only 32 when Johnson beat him but was past his prime further than Moore was but just a year prior Charles beat Jimmy Bivins which is a clear indicator he had more than a little left.

Both were also Top ranked when he fought them.

IronDanHamza
06-15-2011, 05:21 PM
Archie Moore's loss some 36 fights prior to losing to Johnson was to Henry Hall by the way. Who Johnson himself also beat.

Just throwing that in there.

$BloodyNate$
06-15-2011, 05:21 PM
Archie hadn't been beaten in 36 fights prior to fighting Johnson, was 35 years of age and didn't lose a fight for his entire stay at LHW after that in which spanned of 21 fights. After he lost to Johnson he went on to beat Johnson in a rematch x2, Maxim, Olson X2 and Valdez all before he fought Marciano which was 4 years after Johnson beat him.

So I would strongly argue that win is much more legit and great than Calzaghes win over Hopkins considering Hopkins hadn't fought and beat a HOF'er many years prior to Calzaghe and hasn't beat one since then. Unlike Moore. And it is absolutely nothing like Calzaghes win over Roy Jones, nothing alike.

Ezzard Charles was only 32 when Johnson beat him but was past his prime further than Moore was but just a year prior Charles beat Jimmy Bivins which is a clear indicator he had more than a little left.

Both were also Top ranked when he fought them.

Yeah I was just using those examples with age and how shot they might or might not have been. Definitely weren't no shot Roy Jones. Where would you rank him in the top 100? I think he should be pretty damn higher then 100.

IronDanHamza
06-15-2011, 05:26 PM
Yeah I was just using those examples with age and how shot they might or might not have been. Definitely weren't no shot Roy Jones. Where would you rank him in the top 100? I think he should be pretty damn higher then 100.

Man, I really don't know.

It's hard to say because I don't have a Top 100 list and there are so many fighters to look over and watch and breakdown to form a list like that.

But to me, A top 10 Light Heavyweight of all time, and a very very very impressive and stacked resume IMO should be ranked much higher than 100 If I'm honest.

I think he is being criminally underrated in terms of Historians and others. I'm not sure where I would rank him but I think it would be much higher than 100.