View Full Version : 1 Billy point thangy thang, most significant boxing fight? Beating the white hope


$BloodyNate$
06-15-2011, 10:05 AM
What do you think is the most significant boxing fight in boxing history? Whether if it had any impact on society or if it was just a big fight.

In my opinion I think the most significant fight in boxing history is the 1910 fight between Jack Johnson and James Jefferies which was billed "Fight of the Century" and for good reason. It was a bad time in US history where blacks were treated as objects still even after the civil war and not human beings. Scratch objects, they were treated like animals. It was like the White people where Michael Vick and black folks where the dogs they made fight for next to nothing not to mention all the great white fighters ducked them.

It was a big fight because they named Jame Jefferies "the great white hope" trying to take that heavyweight title away from Johnson because they couldn't stand having a black heavyweight champion. He was even quoted in saying "I feel obligated to the sporting public at least to make an effort to reclaim the heavyweight championship for the white race. . . . I should step into the ring again and demonstrate that a white man is king of them all."

Their was so much hate and James Jefferies was even an undefeated ex-heavyweight champion so the white people were so hyped thinking James was going to take Jack Johnson out but in the end, in front of 20,000 people which is pretty huge, Jack Johnson took that man to school. Made his corners make him quit so he wouldn't knockout their precious white man.

I feel it was so significant because Jack Johnson put a big foot down for the African American race making a powerful statement that African American's are great boxers and are the best to ever do it of course depending on the fighter. It pretty much made the white people accept great African american boxers even though it didn't stop them from trying to take him out, he still made a huge statement with that gigantic win. He paved the way for the great likes of Joe Louis, Sugar Ray Robinson, and Muhammad Ali who came after him only a few decades later where they went on to become Pound for Pound 3 of the greatest fighters to ever do it.

I know a lot of people might say Joe Louis over the German, but if Jack Johnson loses that bout, who's to say Louis ever gets his chance to beat the Nazi's for the US? I'm sure black athletes would have eventually been accepted but Jack Johnson did it in impressive fashion when it mattered the most. One of the best heavyweights of all time. Shamefully he was still ducked by many white fighters, but nobody can ever forget the big step he took for African Americans and nobody can deny his greatness, especially after such a magnificent moral victory like that for a whole entire race of people.

Ziggy Stardust
06-15-2011, 11:03 AM
What do you think is the most significant boxing fight in boxing history? Whether if it had any impact on society or if it was just a big fight.

In my opinion I think the most significant fight in boxing history is the 1910 fight between Jack Johnson and James Jefferies which was billed "Fight of the Century" and for good reason. It was a bad time in US history where blacks were treated as objects still even after the civil war and not human beings. Scratch objects, they were treated like animals. It was like the White people where Michael Vick and black folks where the dogs they made fight for next to nothing not to mention all the great white fighters ducked them.

It was a big fight because they named Jame Jefferies "the great white hope" trying to take that heavyweight title away from Johnson because they couldn't stand having a black heavyweight champion. He was even quoted in saying "I feel obligated to the sporting public at least to make an effort to reclaim the heavyweight championship for the white race. . . . I should step into the ring again and demonstrate that a white man is king of them all."

Their was so much hate and James Jefferies was even an undefeated ex-heavyweight champion so the white people were so hyped thinking James was going to take Jack Johnson out but in the end, in front of 20,000 people which is pretty huge, Jack Johnson took that man to school. Made his corners make him quit so he wouldn't knockout their precious white man.

I feel it was so significant because Jack Johnson put a big foot down for the African American race making a powerful statement that African American's are great boxers and are the best to ever do it of course depending on the fighter. It pretty much made the white people accept great African american boxers even though it didn't stop them from trying to take him out, he still made a huge statement with that gigantic win. He paved the way for the great likes of Joe Louis, Sugar Ray Robinson, and Muhammad Ali who came after him only a few decades later where they went on to become Pound for Pound 3 of the greatest fighters to ever do it.

I know a lot of people might say Joe Louis over the German, but if Jack Johnson loses that bout, who's to say Louis ever gets his chance to beat the Nazi's for the US? I'm sure black athletes would have eventually been accepted but Jack Johnson did it in impressive fashion when it mattered the most. One of the best heavyweights of all time. Shamefully he was still ducked by many white fighters, but nobody can ever forget the big step he took for African Americans and nobody can deny his greatness, especially after such a magnificent moral victory like that for a whole entire race of people.

Something to think about: The Johnson Vs. Jeffries fight may well have DELAYED the intregration of boxing precisely because of the hate and rioting. It's pertinant to note that Johnson was unpopular amongst his fellow blacks of the era because he was seen as a selfish pr1ck who was only out for himself and who set the black cause back decades with his self-aggrandizing behavior. Jack Blackburn, for one, hated his guts. Just some food for thought :)

Poet

IronDanHamza
06-15-2011, 11:17 AM
Max Schmeling wasn't a Nazi as far as I'm aware.

IronDanHamza
06-15-2011, 11:20 AM
As for the thread I would agree NOW in recent history it is considered quite an astromical step for the black race and a pivotle moment in history.

Poet touched on a good point that it may have delayed it. But, at the same time it was a big step forward a black man of Johnson's calibur beating a white man of Jerffries calibur. Regardless the the extended lay off.

So I would tend to agree with your assesment and well done.

Jefferies, was also the favourite to win the fight, regardless to his lay off.

Ziggy Stardust
06-15-2011, 11:26 AM
Max Schmeling wasn't a Nazi as far as I'm aware.

He wasn't. It was just that Hitler was using the athletic success of any non-Jewish German to boost the prestige of his regime.

Poet

Ziggy Stardust
06-15-2011, 11:29 AM
Jefferies, was also the favourite to win the fight, regardless to his lay off.

He shouldn't have been. To give the modern day equivalent it would be like Lennox Lewis ballooning up to 350 pounds and announcing today that despite his years of retirement he was going to take the weight off and fight Wlad this Fall. I doubt any sane person would favor him under those circumstances.

Poet

JAB5239
06-15-2011, 11:44 AM
I think Louis-Schmeling 2 was the most significant fight in history. With over 20,000,000 listeners around the globe this fight had world wide ramifications, not just American. Jmo.

$BloodyNate$
06-15-2011, 12:10 PM
I just don't think that tops how big this fight was since it was pretty much an all out race war. I know that fight was during world war 2 and was big for the allies against the axis powers but I mean it's not like it revolutionized anything. It was just the right match up during the right war, an american against a german during the Nazi movement.

I don't think it's fair either the radio and even TV was starting to come around during that fight when their was next to nothing but newspaper journalist for Jack's fight. I'm positive millions would have listen to this fight as because the racial tension was so thick back then. People think it's bad now if they ever been to prison and have be against the other race in their, well it was 50X greater back then in just everyday society.

Jack Johnson started a revolution. I know it could have hurt them as well like Poet said, but then again that's "could of". But it didn't because once he won this huge epic fight their's really no excuse to deny a black fighters right to boxing supremacy. It wasn't an immediate impact but you can see how it effected the sport in the next few years as Jack Dempsey came along. He was notorious for ducking great black fighters he even openly admitted "I was scared to death of Sam Langford" and that really tarnished the hell out of his legacy for ducking so many challenges. It's hard to even rank him top 10 nowadays at heavyweight because of his ducking.

Bottomline what I'm trying to say, Jack Johnson paved the way for a whole race of people whereas Louis just got a cheap moral victory over the Nazi's but it's not like it effected the outcome of the war or anything. The 1st black heavyweight champion dominated "the great white hope." Leaving it just as that, just a hope. That's so influencial even today because you still have people throwing out the term "great white hope." It was used for Jerry Quarry and I've even heard a lot of people call Pavlik that.

IronDanHamza
06-15-2011, 12:15 PM
He shouldn't have been. To give the modern day equivalent it would be like Lennox Lewis ballooning up to 350 pounds and announcing today that despite his years of retirement he was going to take the weight off and fight Wlad this Fall. I doubt any sane person would favor him under those circumstances.

Poet

I didn't say I agree with the fact.

But, it is a fact.

Personally, I don't hold too much stock in the actual win itself. Considering all the factors surrounding it.

$BloodyNate$
06-15-2011, 12:25 PM
I didn't say I agree with the fact.

But, it is a fact.

Personally, I don't hold too much stock in the actual win itself. Considering all the factors surrounding it.

That's how significant it was though. White people use to think they were that much superior to blacks that even if they took 10-20 years off they still should always be able to whip a black man. Jack Johnson put that to sleep real fast and put blacks at an almost equal playing feild.

IronDanHamza
06-15-2011, 12:45 PM
That's how significant it was though. White people use to think they were that much superior to blacks that even if they took 10-20 years off they still should always be able to whip a black man. Jack Johnson put that to sleep real fast and put blacks at an almost equal playing feild.

That's a good point.

The odds were pro White and Jefferies was the favourite regardless to the fact he really shouldn't havbe been solely due to being a great white Champion.

Which shows the significance of this fight. Which was, in all fairness, pretty huge and a turning point in history so to speak. A start, at least.

$BloodyNate$
06-15-2011, 05:58 PM
Oh look mr.black panther is on one of his alts trying to make white people look bad again.

Congratulations to Mr. Johnson for smashing a middle weight (ketchel) and beating an old 5'10 man jeffries.

It's funny today there is no great black hope, considering we probably will never see a black heavyweight champion ever again in boxing now that eastern europeans box.

Seriously?.................................... :bigeyes: :rofl:

1. This is not an alt, check my user name history fool.

2. Where not even talking about his resume, where talking about the fight. This has nothing to do with racism or saying Blacks > White or I'm sure 10x brighter guys then yourself like Poet, Irondan, and Jab would have said something by now.

It's the significance of the win because it was in the 1910's where whites and blacks were at war on their own home turf and white people never thought in a million years one of their great champions could lose to a black fighter. It's fact, no racism involved.

Please provide something useful or GTFO and stop trollin'. Not everything has to do with race or be racist scumbag like yourself always believes.

Ziggy Stardust
06-15-2011, 06:41 PM
Seriously?.................................... :bigeyes: :rofl:

1. This is not an alt, check my user name history fool.

2. Where not even talking about his resume, where talking about the fight. This has nothing to do with racism or saying Blacks > White or I'm sure 10x brighter guys then yourself like Poet, Irondan, and Jab would have said something by now.

It's the significance of the win because it was in the 1910's where whites and blacks were at war on their own home turf and white people never thought in a million years one of their great champions could lose to a black fighter. It's fact, no racism involved.

Please provide something useful or GTFO and stop trollin'. Not everything has to do with race or be racist scumbag like yourself always believes.

I figured that dpsh1t troll's post would be deleted :chuckle9:

Poet

New England
06-15-2011, 08:58 PM
Max Schmeling wasn't a Nazi as far as I'm aware.

they used him as a propaganda tool but he wasn't in the least bit political


he was so recognizably not a nazi that he came stateside for a tenure as a CocaCola executive in the 50's

$BloodyNate$
06-15-2011, 09:00 PM
Oh yeah and I don't know if everybody knows I ain't asking whats the biggest fight or whatever, I'm talking the most significant to boxing history. What fight did the most for the sport.

DarkTerror88
06-15-2011, 10:39 PM
Im pretty sure Schmeling hid Jews in his home during WWII but im not 100% sure.

$BloodyNate$
06-15-2011, 11:07 PM
TS is a known white hater, his post reeks of hatred against whites. You honestly think every single white person in 1910 living in America thought they were superior to jack johnson?

It did nothing for the sport other than proving a heavyweight can beat an old 5'10 man that would fight at JMW today

hahaha what? Because I don't particularly like Joe Calzaghe makes me a racist? Even though your the one running around "People can't accept the fact Joe Calzgahe(a white man) beat Hopkins, the black man that could never be beaten by a white man". And even in this post "another black will never win a heavyweight title because of eastern europeans". Like seriously motha****a? :rofl:

But anyway I love the heat because it'd making the thread go longer making it look pretty for Jabs billy :weed5:

But back on subject, do you even know American history in the early 1900's? Their were several race riots because white people were mad at all the black people and woman getting jobs. That's how it was back in the day, their's no arguing about it. It's fact. George H White was black congressman in north carolina in the late 1800's and resigned because of the racism. Their wasn't another black man in congress for the next 28 years.

Census in 1910
U.S. population: 93,402,151
Black population: 9,827,763 (10.7%)

Of course african americans were treated as inferior because they were severely outnumbered. Jack Johnson was one of the first black Americans if not the first, I'm not sure, to have achieved the greatest success(heavyweight title) in an american sport.

It's not me trying to be pro-black or anything. It's just facts, it was a terrible time in America. What Jack Johnson did was huge. I never said it was a tremendous A level win, this isn't about resume, their's a thread beneath this were you can discuss how you feel about his resume.

Its about how this major win paved the way for other african americans to start succeeding in sports. If you don't like it don't post in here. Nobody else is offended. Pastrano hasn't even showed his face surprisingly haha It was a major win for African Americans, if it leaves a bad taste in your mouth then dodge this thread.

This thread is for discussion, if you don't agree, what do YOU think the most significant fight in boxing history was? I'll be glad to discuss it with ya mane.

Forza
06-16-2011, 01:54 PM
You can't say all whites were racist in 1910. Of course things were different back then and racial tensions were higher than now, but not everybody thought blacks were inferior. You're just taking your blind rage out on all whites because a select few were racist.

$BloodyNate$
06-16-2011, 02:34 PM
You can't say all whites were racist in 1910. Of course things were different back then and racial tensions were higher than now, but not everybody thought blacks were inferior. You're just taking your blind rage out on all whites because a select few were racist.

Who said EVERY single white person was racist? It was just a bad time period and Jack Johnson did something big for his race. I could be black, brown, white, green or yellow and be able to tell you that fool.

BattlingNelson
06-16-2011, 06:34 PM
Im pretty sure Schmeling hid Jews in his home during WWII but im not 100% sure.
I'm not sure that has been confirmed.

Schmeling was definetely NOT a nazi and he had a jewish manager as well.


As for the topic I agree that Johnson-Jeffries was the most significant fight. The first fight-of-the-century. Every newspaper in America covered this fight for months. You simply do not see that kind of mainstream coverage today.

The second fight-of-the-century is IMO the only fight that can rival Johnson-Jeffries for significance and that was Frazier-Ali I. First time 2 undefeated fighters who both had a claim to the throne did battle and the fight itself was epic and much, much better than Johnson-Jeffries.

Shabba Rank$
06-16-2011, 08:16 PM
He wasn't. It was just that Hitler was using the athletic success of any non-Jewish German to boost the prestige of his regime.

Poet

If anything...

Wasn't schmeling ANTI nazi?

Steak
06-16-2011, 09:49 PM
Jack Johnson set blacks back in boxing and made it more difficult for Louis to be heavyweight champion.
cursed Johnson out, told him how he had held up the progress of the Negro people for years with his attitude, how he was a low-down, no-good ******, and told him he wasn't welcome in my camp anymore."
" Jack Johnson ruined boxing for blacks," he wrote, "especially black heavyweights."
"Jack forgot about his old friends after he became champion and drew the color line against his own people."

and his win over Jeffries is laughably bad. he should get little to no credit for it. its even less significant than Holmes' win over Ali.

$BloodyNate$
06-16-2011, 11:12 PM
Jack Johnson set blacks back in boxing and made it more difficult for Louis to be heavyweight champion.




and his win over Jeffries is laughably bad. he should get little to no credit for it. its even less significant than Holmes' win over Ali.

Once again, who said anything about this being a great win for his resume? That is absolutely ridiculous. I never said it was a tremendous victory for his resume, but for his people.

And Roxborough & Joe Louis's statements can not be taken seriously which are obviously the strongest case for your argument but they can't be taken seriously because of the bad blood between Jack Johnson and a lightweight named Jack Blackburn. Nobody would spar with Johnson in 1908 and Blackburn stepped up to the plate. Johnson had a bad attitude and tried to take Blackburn out but Blackburn stayed on his feet for the rest of the sparring session and continued to brag about it afterwards which caused severe bad blood between the two. After a prison stint Blackburn came out and was asked by Roxborough to train Louis and Blackburn from the gate talked bad about Johnson, and Johnson in return talked horribly about Louis because of his trainer which sparked a riot after Louis lost to Max in the 1st fight. Johnson bragged about how he knew Louis wasn't nothing special.

If Louis didn't train with Blackburn, I highly doubt they would have ever had beef. You can't take into account somebody's opinion who's extremely bias hatred against the man. They told him never be seen with a white woman in public or never smile after beating a white man, but like that's so damn hard. I never said Johnson was a class act but he was a hero to all of the black world because of his victory when everybody was saying he was gonna lose.

Louis even defended Johnson after they first met but after Johnson kept talking bad because of the person who trained him that's how their beef started. So for somebody to say it made it harder to be champion just because you couldn't be seen with a white woman or smile after beating a white guy is LAUGHABLE.

Source (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1136911/2/index.htm)

I never said Johnson was beloved by all after the win either, I said it was a big win for his people WHO ADMIRED him afterwards. Like to a real non-bias person like the true GOAT Heavyweight Muhammad Ali if you don't believe Johnson was influential because Ali use to say he was influenced by Johnson who compared the hate for Johnson to his own after he refused to join the military.

STILL DON'T BELIEVE HE WAS INFLUENTIAL? Thats why the National Film Preservation put the film about the fight in the National Film Registry and deemed it "historically significant".

I rest my case.....

Great John L
06-17-2011, 02:03 AM
The most significant fight to me will always be Joe louis vs Max Schmeling II.

Steak
06-17-2011, 02:25 AM
I never said the fight wasnt a big deal, but dont put some ridiculous spin as if Johnson paved the way for black champions. fact of the matter is he made it more difficult for them, which is why Louis had to go through all those pains to be the anti Jack Johnson.


read that Joe Jeanette quote. a lot of blacks at the time felt hurt by Johnson's actions, because he turned his back completely on his roots and refused to fight blacks.

and lol at saying that Ali was non-biased.

$BloodyNate$
06-17-2011, 03:23 AM
I never said the fight wasnt a big deal, but dont put some ridiculous spin as if Johnson paved the way for black champions. fact of the matter is he made it more difficult for them, which is why Louis had to go through all those pains to be the anti Jack Johnson.


read that Joe Jeanette quote. a lot of blacks at the time felt hurt by Johnson's actions, because he turned his back completely on his roots and refused to fight blacks.

and lol at saying that Ali was non-biased.

How is Ali bias in this case? Johnson died when he was 4. Not like Ali met him in real life or something.

I'm not trying to say Jack Johnson was some Martin Luther ****ing King Jr. But to say he didn't make a difference is a bit of a stretch as well. He pretty much stood for what the civil rights was all about, EQUALITY. Whereas Joe Louis was just acting like a common 1800's slave with his humbleness, I mean don't take it the wrong way I give all the respect in the world for Joe for being the next black heavyweight champion, 2nd best heavyweight of all time. But he pretty much just bent over to get his opportunities. Of course he was talented but he bent over to be accepted. Johnson just acted like a WHITE MAN during his time. Showed that he shouldn't be any different then anybody else. He liked woman and he liked fast cars and flaunting his money.

As for him ducking black fighters, especially Sam Langford my argument is "High risk, no reward." Yeah we can shout how great Langford is today but back then who wants to see to black people going at it for the most prestigious crown in the sport? They like seeing too black people beat the piss out of each other but not to see who the best fighter in the world is, they felt that should be a white man's glory. People hated him, nobody wanted to see him fight another black man, people wanted to see him fight white people to see him lose to a white person. Nothing would have satisfied them more back then for a white man to beat Jack Johnson. That's my case for that. Feel free to argue it. And where just going by the shoulda, coulda, woulda with him holding back future heavyweight champions, but even if he was humble and Langford got a shot, nobody can say for a fact he wins the title, he was great but nothing's a fact until it happens. Maybe the possibility increases but It's not like Dempsey didn't duck him either.

And here's another little fun fact , if white people didn't hate black people so much how come black people were murdered all across the United States for celebrating Johnson's win? Their were Hundreds of reported lynching's a year, who knows what the actual numbers are including the ones not reported.

$BloodyNate$
06-17-2011, 03:48 AM
Jack Johnson acted like a white man living life as an equal after working hard up the ladder where he got. Not because "he was humble" like Louis. Not that many black people hated him for his style, the majority of them thought of him as a hero for proving blacks weren't inferior. Like I said blacks died for celebrating his win.

Black people mostly turned on him for talking ***** on Louis and rubbing it in after Louis first lost to Max.