View Full Version : 1 Billion:I think Joe Louis would have beaten Muhammad Ali


kendom
06-15-2011, 08:52 AM
Joe Louis and Muhammad Ali are inarguably two of the greatest heavyweights of all time. In a match up I think that Joe Louis would come out the victor, he had trouble with quick moving fighters, however Conn was 170 lbs Ali was 212 lbs around his prime a much bigger target and Conn was also a much more correct boxer (fundamentally) and didnt make the costly mistakes Ali made such as never learning how to block a jab or being prone to left hooks and good jabbers, Frazier mapped out Louis plan to beat Ali in 1971, for that reason I think that Louis would have beaten him head to head.

IronDanHamza
06-15-2011, 10:11 AM
I think Louis would have beaten Ali but it would be one hell of a match up.

Ziggy Stardust
06-15-2011, 10:32 AM
I think Louis would have beaten Ali but it would be one hell of a match up.

I would favor Ali slightly in a one-off matchup. If they fought 10 times I would favor Ali only by slim majority in the series. Louis would get his share of wins.

Poet

JAB5239
06-15-2011, 10:40 AM
I got Louis by decision. Ali was always a sucker for the left hook, and Louis had one of the best to go with power, technique and perfect combinations. Ali's speed will trouble Joe, but Louis' superior skills will win it for him. Jmo.

$BloodyNate$
06-15-2011, 11:14 AM
I think Ali's underrated power definitely comes into play in this fight not to mention his solid chin and Joe's kind of weaker chin as far as solid heavyweight chins go. Not to mention in his prime Ali had the best heavyweight footwork PERIOD. With that great footwork and his piston like jab he could keep Joe in the range he wants him out and I think he actually knocks him out late. I think he could take the best Joe could throw at him.

kendom
06-15-2011, 12:37 PM
I think Ali's underrated power definitely comes into play in this fight not to mention his solid chin and Joe's kind of weaker chin as far as solid heavyweight chins go. Not to mention in his prime Ali had the best heavyweight footwork PERIOD. With that great footwork and his piston like jab he could keep Joe in the range he wants him out and I think he actually knocks him out late. I think he could take the best Joe could throw at him.

I dont think Ali could ko Louis as he had great stamina and was only knocked out when he was grossly out of shape and over 12 rounds. Why did Ali struggle so much with Ken Norton? Ediie Futch who was Nortons trainer said it was because of the jab, Norton was a master at blocking the jab which destoryed Alis rythmn and he would counter jab, Louis was a master at blocking jabs and would have blocked Alis jab and countered him just like Norton except with far more power, how would Ali have avoided Louis's jab? leaning back? that could work aganist Liston but against someone with a jab as fast as Louis?

House of Stone
06-17-2011, 05:24 AM
looking at the 1st Conn and Walcott fights I got Ali by decision - I just see him outboxing the guy .. and take the heart Ali shows in his later fights combined with the incredible skills he showed against say the Cleveland Williams or patterson and I reckon he beats even the Louis of say Schmelling 2 ... but really its one of these things that we can never say for sure. To be honest i kinda think prime Ali finds a way to beat pretty much anybody ever ... regarding Norton it was not the best version of Ali that fought him in the first fight (plus add a broken jaw into the mix which if anything argues that Louis would be hard pushed to stop the guy) and a few years whipped of Ali would make all the difference in the second.

Greatest1942
06-17-2011, 06:54 AM
looking at the 1st Conn and Walcott fights I got Ali by decision - I just see him outboxing the guy .. and take the heart Ali shows in his later fights combined with the incredible skills he showed against say the Cleveland Williams or patterson and I reckon he beats even the Louis of say Schmelling 2 ... but really its one of these things that we can never say for sure. To be honest i kinda think prime Ali finds a way to beat pretty much anybody ever ... regarding Norton it was not the best version of Ali that fought him in the first fight (plus add a broken jaw into the mix which if anything argues that Louis would be hard pushed to stop the guy) and a few years whipped of Ali would make all the difference in the second.

Sorry ...but Ali was never too fast...

Louis fought Conn weight drained without fluids...he might have ran out of steam..but he did knock Conn out. What did Ali do with a guy called Doug Jones...Louis was at the *** end of his carrer when he met Walcott. He retired after that. Ali at that stage got beat by Leon Spinks...I will not elaborate on that..suffice to state that Louis of any time did not get beat by some one with a record like Spinks. We are talking prime to prime and lets keep it at that.
Very average boxers caught up with him...Cleveland Williams? The guy was shot!!! Had lost a portion of his intestines...Patterson? He had a bad back...when he fought Ali for the first time...it was a bad decision to take the fight...I will like to draw your attention to something else..Ali struggled against Doug Jones...was nearly knocked out by a Henry Cooper left hook and trust me Louis hit way harder...The slow George Chuvalo caught up to the lighting Ali a number of times in their fight and landed lots of heavy shots...Chuvalo was no LOuis...if Louis landed that much Ali would be in serious trouble..

Norton showed a fast hand can be offset by parries and Louis could parry..Louis was too technical and proficient to not do what Norton could do...

Ali is great...no doubt..

But Louis beats Ali 6 times out of 10.

JAB5239
06-17-2011, 07:14 AM
Sorry ...but Ali was never too fast...

Louis fought Conn weight drained without fluids...he might have ran out of steam..but he did knock Conn out. What did Ali do with a guy called Doug Jones...Louis was at the *** end of his carrer when he met Walcott. He retired after that. Ali at that stage got beat by Leon Spinks...I will not elaborate on that..suffice to state that Louis of any time did not get beat by some one with a record like Spinks. We are talking prime to prime and lets keep it at that.
Very average boxers caught up with him...Cleveland Williams? The guy was shot!!! Had lost a portion of his intestines...Patterson? He had a bad back...when he fought Ali for the first time...it was a bad decision to take the fight...I will like to draw your attention to something else..Ali struggled against Doug Jones...was nearly knocked out by a Henry Cooper left hook and trust me Louis hit way harder...The slow George Chuvalo caught up to the lighting Ali a number of times in their fight and landed lots of heavy shots...Chuvalo was no LOuis...if Louis landed that much Ali would be in serious trouble..

Norton showed a fast hand can be offset by parries and Louis could parry..Louis was too technical and proficient to not do what Norton could do...

Ali is great...no doubt..

But Louis beats Ali 6 times out of 10.

My man, where the hell have you been? I was just talking about you with somebody not to long ago and we were wondering where you went! Hope everything is good for you.

Greatest1942
06-17-2011, 07:27 AM
My man, where the hell have you been? I was just talking about you with somebody not to long ago and we were wondering where you went! Hope everything is good for you.

I am fine Jab thanks..just was very busy with a crazy job schedule...I hope to come to this forums a bit more regularly from now on...Nice to see you though. Thanks Again.

Great John L
06-17-2011, 08:38 AM
I think Joe Louis would beat Ali too. Ali's durability bad his stamina might enable him to survvie the full 15, or 12, however many rounds it is. But I believe Joe is capable of knocking him out. Though it is by no means an easy fight.

JAB5239
06-17-2011, 08:46 AM
I think Joe Louis would beat Ali too. Ali's durability bad his stamina might enable him to survvie the full 15, or 12, however many rounds it is. But I believe Joe is capable of knocking him out. Though it is by no means an easy fight.

Another excellent poster back from the missing!! Where ya been John?

Great John L
06-17-2011, 08:50 AM
Another excellent poster back from the missing!! Where ya been John?

Thanks, Bro! Things have been pretty crammed with my school and all that, but I'm back here for good for now. I can't believe the time that's passed since I've been here.

Ziggy Stardust
06-17-2011, 12:35 PM
This is a repost from a thread I made a while back. Not saying I agree with it but I think it's pertinent food for thought for this thread :)

How I Would Have Clobbered Clay Part 1

By Joe Louis

Originally Printed In The February 1967 Issue Of The Ring Magazine
Reprinted In The February 1991 Issue Of The Ring Magazine


Cassius Clay's got lots of ability, but he's not The Greatest. He's a guy with a million dollars worth of confidence and a dime's worth of courage. I could have whipped him. In all honesty, I feel it in my bones. Clay can be clobbered, and if you'll pardon an old-timer talking, I am cerrtain I know how.

These days, I get to the fights in most parts of the world, especially when Clay is defending my old heavyweight title. We kid around in training camps a little, and Clay makes speeches and goes into his act, telling folks how he would have fought Joe Louis. I play along. It don't harm nobody. Maybe helps with the action, puts a few dollars on the take.

Fellows come up, asking for autographs, that kind of thing, and tell me I could have licked Clay with the Empire State Building tied to my feet. I don't say anything.

But a man gets thoughts sitting there watching Clay. I see him fooling in the gym, and I seen nearly all his fights, right through from Willie Besmanoff, way back in Louisville, to Cleveland Williams in Houston. Sometimes Clay fights good and sometimes he pulls rhubarbs that should get his head knocked off if the other guy knew his trade like they made me learn mine.

Trouble with Clay, he thinks he knows it all. Fights with his mouth. He won't listen. Me, first thing I learned in the fight gane was to keep my trap shut and my ears wide open, especially when my wise old trainer, Chappie Blackburn, was telling me things for my own good.

We did all right. Seems like I won a championship, so maybe I'm entitled to speak up a word or two of truth after all these years. And the truth in my book is I'm sure I could've put Clay away, and also know how.

Clay says he's got the fastest hands and the fastes feet of any heavyweight who was ever born. That's his opinion and he's entitled to it. The kid has speed and can surely box when he has to. There's nobody around to outbox him, and the opponent who tries is in his grave. Especially in the middle of the ring. With room to move, Clay's a champion, real dangerous. But he doesn't know a thing about fighting on the ropes, which is where he would be if he were in there with me. He's all confused, his feet in knots, and his body wide open to everything.

I didn't see Henry Cooper put Clay down in their first fight in London, but I'd like to bet Clay was coming off the ropes when he got caught with left hook.

I certainly saw that German southpaw, Mildenberger, bang him good in the corner, and that was when Mildenberger had been battered into a hopeless, beat-up hulk in the 10th round. Clay did not appreciate that punch one bit, but if Mildenberger had known enough to send it over when he was fresh, I figure Clay would have appreciated it a whole lot less.

Sure, Clay's got fancy feet in the middle of the ring, faster even than Billy Conn or Bob Pastor, two of the quickest men who ever gave me the run-around till I caught up. But Clay wastes his footwork, stumbling around like Conn and Pastor never did, from where I was looking.

There's a couple of other things about Clay. He drops his left hand when he should be protecting that pretty face he's always talking about. Doing a fool thing like that in a championship fight, he could end up looking like a meat wagon, or maybe riding in one.

Dropping your left hand ain't healthy. It was a weakness of my own till Max Schmeling taught me the hard was in our first fight.

If I were fighting Clay, I would start licking him at least five weeks before the bell, right in training camp...some place like my old stand at Pompton Lakes.

There wouldn't be too much of the fancy fixin's and show-biz routines they give you in the gymnasiums these days, but there sure would be some murder going on. I never fooled around in workouts.

I would pay top wages for the five fastest sparring partners I could buy. I would need quick targets to speed up my hands for a past opponent like Clay, and I would feel real sorry for those boys by the time we were through.

Clay has his own ideas about sparring. Me, too. There would be no horsing around. I never did pull punches with sparmates. Fighting was my business, and a man shouldn't play games in business hours. If I were training to whip Clay, my partners would go home bruised and busted up round the body, even from big gloves. Anyone who couldn't take it would be out, long before fight night.

And if I was boss in camp, I'd aim to be boss in the ring, where the gloves come smaller. Any man who fights Clay's fight is crazy. With me, Clay would have to fight a Joe Louis fight, my way, all the way. Which means I would go in to outpunch him rather than try to outbox him. I once thought I could keep up with Billy Conn, and for a long time it didn't take.

I'd see to it that Clay did not stay in ring-center. Out there, I could be the Patsy on the wrong end of the punishment. No, he'd be hit into those ropes as near a corner as I could get him...someplace where, from all I've seen, he just does not know how to fight.

If he stayed on the ropes, he'd get hurt. Sooner or later he'd try to bounce off, and when he did he would get hurt more. That's what the fight game is all about.

I'd press him, bang him around, claw him, clobber him with all I had, cut down his speed, belt him around the ribs. I'd punish the body, where the pain comes real bad. I know; I can still feel the trip-hammers Rocky Marciano hit me with when he knocked me out when he was on his way up and I was on my way out.

Clay would have welts on his body like I did. He would ache, like I did. His mouth would shut tight against the pain, and there would be tears burning his eyes. It is not very funny being under fire from bodypunches, and it wouldn't help Clay any looking for his trainer, Angelo Dundee, to come riding into the ring with the rescue posse.

Those guys in the corner fight good during the intervals, but they can't give you any more fists or any more heart when some guy's caving your ribs in.

"Kill the body and the head will die," Chappie used to tell me. It figures.

Sooner or later, I think Clay would get the message. Get it so good that he'd stop worrying about that face of his and drop his left hand like he did against Mildenberger and George Chuvalo. Those fellows got their openings by accident, and then fouled them up. I would work for it, and I wouldn't reckon to miss when it arrived.

If I goofed with a world title and a million dollars or so in the pot (plus all that television money these days), then I would not have any right to be in there with a smart fighter like Cassius Clay.

But only smart so far. Clay coming out of a corner all confused, busted up from body punches, would be a sucker for any opponent waiting for him with a shot in the locker. I'd be waiting, ready with something hot.

Ziggy Stardust
06-17-2011, 12:35 PM
How I Would Have Clobbered Clay Part 2

By Joe Louis

Originally Printed In The February 1967 Issue Of The Ring Magazine
Reprinted In The February 1991 Issue Of The Ring Magazine


I haven't got around to figuring what kind of punch I'd send in for the payroll, but I learned several in my day. A one-punch fighter is only half a fighter. Take away his hammer and he's nothing. You have to be properly equipped.

When I won my title from jim Braddock, I cut Jim's lip with a left hook, but that was only by way of preparation for the payoff. When his legs began to wobble, I put my whole body behind a right to the jaw, and Jim dropped on his face for goodbye.

Maybe I could hit Clay with that kind of right. It takes all sorts, like in my second fight with Max Schmeling. A right to the jaw gave Max a three-count; he took two more from a one-two combination; then I threw a straight left jab and a right cross for keeps. But all these counts started from a right to the ribs after Max had bounced off the ropes with his legs in a mess.

I owed Max a thing or two. After he beat me two years earlier, I spent lots of time studying his style before I discovered he was a sucker for a left jab.

I honestly feel I could have turned the same kind of trick against Clay, but my feelings don't predict which round. Only poets go around predicting.

I was prepared to travel all the way against Schmeling, but I got my chance to tag him in one. Contrariwise, I was hoping for a quick kill in my first fight with Billy Conn on the New York Polo Grounds. But I came in too light, and Billy breezed along so fast he nearly took my title. Too bad he finally decided to slug it out, like I hoped he would, and got his face all mixed up with my right hand in the 13th.

If I was fighting Clay, I would aim to be ready with the big one any time, from round one to round 15.

In London, and in most other places I go, people always ask me how Clay would have come through against my old opponents, and we kick the thing around, arguing this way and that.

I think Jersey Joe Walcott would have outgeneraled him. Clay is faster, but old Joe had a better style and better brains. When he dropped the left it wasn't a mistake. It was to feint you on to a right hand that could bring the roof down on your head.

Billy Conn was like lightning. He learned his trade in the small clubs, from welter right through to heavyweight. He could have kept up with Clay because his legs knew where they were going. Only thing is, Clay and Conn would have been running away from each other so fast that there would have been no fight.

Clay, I think, would have hit too fast for Jim Braddock and would have had too many moves for max baer. Maxie packed a punch but never paid enough attention to learning his business the hard way: In camp and round the clubs.

Schmeling could have taken Clay with his right, same way he took me when I forgot to keep my left up after I'd jabbed with it in out first fight.

But, of all my old opponents, the one to give Clay the worst time would have been Rocky Marciano. The Rock didn't know too much about the boxing book, but it wasn't a book he hit me with. It was a whole library of bonecrushers.

If Marciano caught up with him, I figure Clay would get discouraged and start looking for Angelo Dundee to cut his gloves off.

Nobody ever beat Marciano, and I was wrong when I thought I was still young enough to know how. I could be wrong about Clay as well, but it's good to forget the calender once in a while and dream up ways of whipping the man who wears your old crown.

Once I happend to walk along when Clay was hollering, "I am The Greatest!" to some fellows outside the Theresa Hotel in Harlem. When he saw me, Clay came over and shouted to the crowd, "This is Joe Louis. WE is The Greatest!"

That was nice. Cassius Clay is a nice boy and a smart fighter. But I'm sure Joe Louis could have licked him.

slicksouthpaw16
06-17-2011, 02:31 PM
I think Ali's underrated power definitely comes into play in this fight not to mention his solid chin and Joe's kind of weaker chin as far as solid heavyweight chins go. Not to mention in his prime Ali had the best heavyweight footwork PERIOD. With that great footwork and his piston like jab he could keep Joe in the range he wants him out and I think he actually knocks him out late. I think he could take the best Joe could throw at him.

Coud not agree more. While i respect everyones opinion, i in no way shape or form see Louis beating Ali. Having that much trouble with Conn AND Walcott, i wouldn't back him to beat the most mobile, quick handed, most slickest heavyweight in history. Ali would literally reset him all night, and would probably end it by tko.

Ziggy Stardust
06-17-2011, 02:39 PM
Coud not agree more. While i respect everyones opinion, i in no way shape or form see Louis beating Ali. Having that much trouble with Conn AND Walcott, i wouldn't back him to beat the most mobile, quick handed, most slickest heavyweight in history. Ali would literally reset him all night, and would probably end it by tko.

In fairness though Louis was clearly past-it for Walcott so that's not really a good gage.....that's like taking a past-it Ali from the Norton fights and using it as a gage for why Louis wins.

Poet

slicksouthpaw16
06-17-2011, 03:12 PM
In fairness though Louis was clearly past-it for Walcott so that's not really a good gage.....that's like taking a past-it Ali from the Norton fights and using it as a gage for why Louis wins.

Poet

True, but he did struggle with Conn in the first fight. The reason i choose Walcott is because of his foot work and the fact that Louis wasn't that effective at attacking on the move (coming forward), but to fair that wasn't his absolute prime. Conn caused him even more problems on the other hand, and i really can't pick out anything he did better than Ali or any advantage he would have in the Louis match up. The thread starter says that Ali would be a much bigger target than Conn was, when Ali pre exile was the hardest heavyweight ever to hit cleanly. Same goes for him saying ''Ali not being able to block jabs''. Ali in his prime didn't need to block anything, his thing to was avoid the shot completely with his reflexes and counter. Liston's reach was unreal and he had a very effective jab, and Ali took it away from him.

JAB5239
06-17-2011, 04:24 PM
Coud not agree more. While i respect everyones opinion, i in no way shape or form see Louis beating Ali. Having that much trouble with Conn AND Walcott, i wouldn't back him to beat the most mobile, quick handed, most slickest heavyweight in history. Ali would literally reset him all night, and would probably end it by tko.

This thread is bringing all the our old regulars back! Good to see you in the history section again brother!

slicksouthpaw16
06-17-2011, 05:23 PM
This thread is bringing all the our old regulars back! Good to see you in the history section again brother!

Same to you jab :fing02:

SBleeder
06-17-2011, 05:26 PM
This is a repost from a thread I made a while back. Not saying I agree with it but I think it's pertinent food for thought for this thread :)

How I Would Have Clobbered Clay Part 1

By Joe Louis

Originally Printed In The February 1967 Issue Of The Ring Magazine
Reprinted In The February 1991 Issue Of The Ring Magazine


Cassius Clay's got lots of ability, but he's not The Greatest. He's a guy with a million dollars worth of confidence and a dime's worth of courage.

The bolded statement renders the rest of the article void. Ali fought and beat some of the most feared and dangerous heavyweights of all time.

Ziggy Stardust
06-17-2011, 05:28 PM
The bolded statement renders the rest of the article void. Ali fought and beat some of the most feared and dangerous heavyweights of all time.

Check the date on when it was written though: 1967 at which time Ali had only faced Liston out of his truly fearsome opponents.

Poet

kendom
06-18-2011, 04:12 PM
True, but he did struggle with Conn in the first fight. The reason i choose Walcott is because of his foot work and the fact that Louis wasn't that effective at attacking on the move (coming forward), but to fair that wasn't his absolute prime. Conn caused him even more problems on the other hand, and i really can't pick out anything he did better than Ali or any advantage he would have in the Louis match up. The thread starter says that Ali would be a much bigger target than Conn was, when Ali pre exile was the hardest heavyweight ever to hit cleanly. Same goes for him saying ''Ali not being able to block jabs''. Ali in his prime didn't need to block anything, his thing to was avoid the shot completely with his reflexes and counter. Liston's reach was unreal and he had a very effective jab, and Ali took it away from him.

Conn was a better techical boxer than Ali, Ali made a lot of mistakes in the ring but his speed let him get away with it, Louis wouldnt have the same problems with Ali because even though Ali was faster he was prone to left hooks and good jabbers, and the statement "Ali in his prime was the hardest heavyweight to hit cleanly" is simply false, Henry Cooper in their second fight was tagging him and even a brawler like Chuvalo was able to catch Ali flush on the chin, Louis's jab was much faster than Listons and Louis was a master at blocking jabs and countering which would have destoyed Alis rythmn like Norton did, except Louis was a more proficient and dangerous puncher than Norton

Ziggy Stardust
06-18-2011, 04:52 PM
Conn was a better techical boxer than Ali, Ali made a lot of mistakes in the ring but his speed let him get away with it, Louis wouldnt have the same problems with Ali because even though Ali was faster he was prone to left hooks and good jabbers, and the statement "Ali in his prime was the hardest heavyweight to hit cleanly" is simply false, Henry Cooper in their second fight was tagging him and even a brawler like Chuvalo was able to catch Ali flush on the chin, Louis's jab was much faster than Listons and Louis was a master at blocking jabs and countering which would have destoyed Alis rythmn like Norton did, except Louis was a more proficient and dangerous puncher than Norton

For starters even the best defensive fighters are going to get hit in every fight. The phrase was "difficult to hit" not impossible to hit. Even Fraud Gayweather who runs like a b1tch and is generally considered to be the best defensive fighter of today gets hit multiple times in every round of every fight. So did Roy Jones. Nobody pitches a shutout in a fight no matter how good they are defensively.

If you actually WATCH the Cooper and Chuvalo fights (preferably without a rooting interest) you'll see that both of them miss far more than they land. They idea that Ali was somehow particularly "succeptable" to left hooks is a myth that popped up after he had a couple of flash knockdowns from them. The truth is he didn't get tagged with left hooks any more frequently then he did with rights. Sonny Liston had a better left hook than Cooper did and even he couldn't tag Ali with it until Ali lost his sight in the 5th. And who the hell was ever able to land jabs consistantly on a prime Ali? I've seen ALL of Ali's fights from his championship years and NO ONE was able to land a jab consistantly on him in his prime.....not even Sonny Liston who is considered to have the best jab in the history of the Heavyweight division.

Poet

kendom
06-18-2011, 05:39 PM
For starters even the best defensive fighters are going to get hit in every fight. The phrase was "difficult to hit" not impossible to hit. Even Fraud Gayweather who runs like a b1tch and is generally considered to be the best defensive fighter of today gets hit multiple times in every round of every fight. So did Roy Jones. Nobody pitches a shutout in a fight no matter how good they are defensively.

If you actually WATCH the Cooper and Chuvalo fights (preferably without a rooting interest) you'll see that both of them miss far more than they land. They idea that Ali was somehow particularly "succeptable" to left hooks is a myth that popped up after he had a couple of flash knockdowns from them. The truth is he didn't get tagged with left hooks any more frequently then he did with rights. Sonny Liston had a better left hook than Cooper did and even he couldn't tag Ali with it until Ali lost his sight in the 5th. And who the hell was ever able to land jabs consistantly on a prime Ali? I've seen ALL of Ali's fights from his championship years and NO ONE was able to land a jab consistantly on him in his prime.....not even Sonny Liston who is considered to have the best jab in the history of the Heavyweight division.

Poet

Ali was suscpetible to quick-handed boxers with good left hands, Liston wasnt very well known for is handspeed. Doug Jones gave him problems in his prime and Ken Norton did after his prime, however regardless of whether or not he was in his prime Norton would still have given him plenty of problems with his style, my issue here is that Ali wasnt a great defensive fighter he relied too much on his speed, however when you're making fundamental mistakes like Ali did, such as leaning away from a jab (thereby making him susceptible to a good feinter which Louis was), throwing uppercuts from outside making him open to a left hook, dropping his right hand after throwing it thereby making him susceptible to a left hook, then those can be exploited by someone with explosive power annd handspeed like Louis, alis tactics of leaning away from punches is suicidal ganist someone with the handspeed of Louis. And fighter who gave Ali trouble in the ring had good left hooks: Doug Jones, Joe Frazier, Ken Norton, Henry Cooper. Their handspeed were greater than Listons which is why they were able to trouble him more.

Ziggy Stardust
06-18-2011, 08:58 PM
Ali was suscpetible to quick-handed boxers with good left hands, Liston wasnt very well known for is handspeed. Doug Jones gave him problems in his prime and Ken Norton did after his prime, however regardless of whether or not he was in his prime Norton would still have given him plenty of problems with his style, my issue here is that Ali wasnt a great defensive fighter he relied too much on his speed, however when you're making fundamental mistakes like Ali did, such as leaning away from a jab (thereby making him susceptible to a good feinter which Louis was), throwing uppercuts from outside making him open to a left hook, dropping his right hand after throwing it thereby making him susceptible to a left hook, then those can be exploited by someone with explosive power annd handspeed like Louis, alis tactics of leaning away from punches is suicidal ganist someone with the handspeed of Louis. And fighter who gave Ali trouble in the ring had good left hooks: Doug Jones, Joe Frazier, Ken Norton, Henry Cooper. Their handspeed were greater than Listons which is why they were able to trouble him more.

Ahem. Floyd Patterson ring a bell? He had faster hands then all of them and a better left hook than any of them save Frazier. He could do NOTHING against Ali.....absolutely NOTHING.

How much trouble did Jones give Ali in reality? I've watched and scored that fight many times and I'll be damned if I could give him more than three rounds. Being a spoiler and making an opponent look bad isn't the same as winning the fight. Henry Cooper? Aside from a knockdown he got when Ali had his feet tangled up coming off the ropes he took a one-sided beatdown.....in both fights. You brought up Chuvalo in a previous post. At what point in either fight was Ali in any danger of losing? Chuvalo got slaughtered both times and it was only his incredible capacity for sponging punishment that kept him upright. Prime is very significant as far as Norton goes: Norton might make a prime Ali look bad at times.....and still lose a lopsided decision. Making your opponent look bad is NOT the same as winning.

Speed is defense. Reflexes are defense. There is no "right" or "wrong" way to do anything in the ring: The only thing that matters is if what you do WORKS or not. That's the bottom-line. Ali was extremely difficult to hit (hence he had a great defense) precisely because of his speed and reflexes. You may not like HOW he achieved his great defense but he wasn't asking you.....the only thing that mattered was that it worked. Boxing is a bottom-line sport and that's the bottom-line: It worked.

Poet

TBear
06-19-2011, 02:03 AM
As far as Louis goes, any true assessment based on the Conn and Walcott performances should be disallowed. Walcott was at the tail end of his career and that means as much as Ali's loss to Neon Leon.
As for the first Conn fight it could very well have been one of those nights, if any champion makes more than ten defenses we should know at least one of those challengers is going to give a better account of himself than he is normally capable of.
Louis made a career of cutting off the ring and catching up to fighters, many of them able boxers and movers. One bad night and suddenly you have a weakness and are beatable. Don't you think many before and after that night others tried this and failed? Either way in the end Joe knocked out both and that should be the bottom line.

I'm not debating who might win this matchup, just dissecting the reasoning here. No offense but it just doesn't stand up straight for me.

Greatest1942
06-19-2011, 03:32 AM
Ahem. Floyd Patterson ring a bell? He had faster hands then all of them and a better left hook than any of them save Frazier. He could do NOTHING against Ali.....absolutely NOTHING.

How much trouble did Jones give Ali in reality? I've watched and scored that fight many times and I'll be damned if I could give him more than three rounds. Being a spoiler and making an opponent look bad isn't the same as winning the fight. Henry Cooper? Aside from a knockdown he got when Ali had his feet tangled up coming off the ropes he took a one-sided beatdown.....in both fights. You brought up Chuvalo in a previous post. At what point in either fight was Ali in any danger of losing? Chuvalo got slaughtered both times and it was only his incredible capacity for sponging punishment that kept him upright. Prime is very significant as far as Norton goes: Norton might make a prime Ali look bad at times.....and still lose a lopsided decision. Making your opponent look bad is NOT the same as winning.

Speed is defense. Reflexes are defense. There is no "right" or "wrong" way to do anything in the ring: The only thing that matters is if what you do WORKS or not. That's the bottom-line. Ali was extremely difficult to hit (hence he had a great defense) precisely because of his speed and reflexes. You may not like HOW he achieved his great defense but he wasn't asking you.....the only thing that mattered was that it worked. Boxing is a bottom-line sport and that's the bottom-line: It worked.

Poet

Poet, Floyd had a bad back. It is evident as the fight goes on that he is struggling..if you really think it is 100% fit Floyd...you are biased for Ali I can say that too...He was struggling after the 1st round...Second time...he was way too old.

Speed is a form of defense it isnt the only one. Then an Olympic sprinter could be the best boxer for speed and light power. Head movement , Parrying are also forms of defense that could be used in boxing.

Chuvalo was a medicore boxer. He had a great chin. Point is he got to Ali. He landed a lot for a slow plodding fighter. No one i saying it was a close fight. It was not. But point is many Ali fans say he was untouchable he was so swift. Louis would not get to him . well Chuvalo did and land may times. Ali I think passed blood after the fight. It was not from Chuvalo missing all the time I can assure you. If Chuvalo can get to Ali then I find it hard to believe that a top 10 ATG great wont get to Ali and not have him in some trouble.
Joe was a better more lethal boxer than Chuvalo. He would land much more simply because of his accuracy and hand speed. I don't think ALi can simply shake of those punches...

You say Ali was not vulnerable to the left hook. Well that single punch floored him the most times...WHat we should believe..Ask Cooper or Frazier...
Fact is although some state that Ali is too fast..it doesnot hold up...May be in a field where there are no boundaries...In a boxing ring Joe Louis got to everyone even Walcoot and Conn...see Louis Conn 2 guys...you will see Conn run...but Louis caught up to him again. So I give a 3 fight series 2-1 to Louis...To each his own I guess

kendom
06-19-2011, 09:39 AM
Ahem. Floyd Patterson ring a bell? He had faster hands then all of them and a better left hook than any of them save Frazier. He could do NOTHING against Ali.....absolutely NOTHING.

How much trouble did Jones give Ali in reality? I've watched and scored that fight many times and I'll be damned if I could give him more than three rounds. Being a spoiler and making an opponent look bad isn't the same as winning the fight. Henry Cooper? Aside from a knockdown he got when Ali had his feet tangled up coming off the ropes he took a one-sided beatdown.....in both fights. You brought up Chuvalo in a previous post. At what point in either fight was Ali in any danger of losing? Chuvalo got slaughtered both times and it was only his incredible capacity for sponging punishment that kept him upright. Prime is very significant as far as Norton goes: Norton might make a prime Ali look bad at times.....and still lose a lopsided decision. Making your opponent look bad is NOT the same as winning.

Speed is defense. Reflexes are defense. There is no "right" or "wrong" way to do anything in the ring: The only thing that matters is if what you do WORKS or not. That's the bottom-line. Ali was extremely difficult to hit (hence he had a great defense) precisely because of his speed and reflexes. You may not like HOW he achieved his great defense but he wasn't asking you.....the only thing that mattered was that it worked. Boxing is a bottom-line sport and that's the bottom-line: It worked.

Poet

As mentioned earlier Patterson had a bad back, Ali wasnt that difficult to hit if you had fast hands and the style to neutralise his speed like Norton and Frazier, what im saying is that no one Ali faced in his prime was able to properly fight Ali the way that was needed. Ali was then able o get away with his technical flaws, however aganist Louis those technical flaws would be his downfall. Speed and reflexes are not going to be good enough to avoid someone with the handspeed of Louis he needs something more. Louis was far more dangerous than either Norton or Frazier, he had the ability to carry ut to prefection the strategies they used to trouble Ali such as: body punching, cutting off the ring, blocking/slipping the jab etc excpet he had bigger weapons than these men did.

Ziggy Stardust
06-19-2011, 12:05 PM
Poet, Floyd had a bad back. It is evident as the fight goes on that he is struggling..if you really think it is 100% fit Floyd...you are biased for Ali I can say that too...He was struggling after the 1st round...Second time...he was way too old.

For starters, I can't stand Ali. I think he was a 24 karot azzhole. Secondly, my all-time favorite fighter happens to be Joe Louis. I don't play favorites when I analyze.....if I did we wouldn't be having this conversation.


Speed is a form of defense it isnt the only one. Then an Olympic sprinter could be the best boxer for speed and light power. Head movement , Parrying are also forms of defense that could be used in boxing.

This just validates the point I made about there not being any "right" or "wrong" in the ring but rather whether it works or not.


Chuvalo was a medicore boxer. He had a great chin. Point is he got to Ali. He landed a lot for a slow plodding fighter. No one i saying it was a close fight. It was not. But point is many Ali fans say he was untouchable he was so swift. Louis would not get to him . well Chuvalo did and land may times. Ali I think passed blood after the fight. It was not from Chuvalo missing all the time I can assure you. If Chuvalo can get to Ali then I find it hard to believe that a top 10 ATG great wont get to Ali and not have him in some trouble.

Like I said in my previous post even the best defensive fighters get landed on multiple times in every round of every fight. The next shutout I see pitched in boxing will be the first (obviously exempting one punch and done 1st round KOs like Thunder Vs. Grimsley). The Ali fans are engaing in hyperbole when they say untouchable. It would be much more accurate to say Ali was the most difficult to hit of all the great Heavies as "untouchable" has yet to be achieved by any fighter.

I haven't seen any one saying Chuvalo missed "all the time" (see above).....but he did miss far more than landed and that's ultimately the definition of good defense.


Joe was a better more lethal boxer than Chuvalo. He would land much more simply because of his accuracy and hand speed. I don't think ALi can simply shake of those punches...

And Ali was a better and more lethal boxer than Billy Conn.....these comparisons work both ways.


You say Ali was not vulnerable to the left hook. Well that single punch floored him the most times...WHat we should believe..Ask Cooper or Frazier...

Frazier threw 90% left hooks so what else was he going to hit Ali with (and a past-prime Ali at that)? The Cooper example, as I pointed out, had Ali being caught coming off the ropes with his feet tangled up: ANY hard punch landed at that point would have put him down.

Like I said, if you watch Ali's fights he doesn't get hit with left hooks any more than he gets hit with rights. If he had any sort of "special vulnerability" to them than all his opponents would have been throwing them at him all night long and bouncing off the canvas like a basketball.


Fact is although some state that Ali is too fast..it doesnot hold up...May be in a field where there are no boundaries...In a boxing ring Joe Louis got to everyone even Walcott and Conn...see Louis Conn 2 guys...you will see Conn run...but Louis caught up to him again. So I give a 3 fight series 2-1 to Louis...To each his own I guess

You won't see Ali "running".....this is Ali not Mayweather here. Watch the Liston I: The only time you see Ali running is in the 5th when he's blind.....otherwise he's using his speed to attack from all angles and pull out before the reciept.

Poet

Ziggy Stardust
06-19-2011, 12:17 PM
As mentioned earlier Patterson had a bad back, Ali wasnt that difficult to hit if you had fast hands and the style to neutralise his speed like Norton and Frazier, what im saying is that no one Ali faced in his prime was able to properly fight Ali the way that was needed. Ali was then able o get away with his technical flaws, however aganist Louis those technical flaws would be his downfall. Speed and reflexes are not going to be good enough to avoid someone with the handspeed of Louis he needs something more.

If no one was "able" to do it as you say, how can you logically infer that ANYONE would be able to do it? There's no evidence for it. No one was able to consistantly land on a prime Roy Jones either but that doesn't logically lead to the conclusion that "no one was doing it right".

And btw, Norton's style was based on taking away the jab not taking away speed. Ali had no problems throughout his career switching to lead rights when he had difficulty landing the jab.


Louis was far more dangerous than either Norton or Frazier, he had the ability to carry ut to prefection the strategies they used to trouble Ali such as: body punching, cutting off the ring, blocking/slipping the jab etc excpet he had bigger weapons than these men did.

Once again your using examples of a past-prime Ali who didn't have the speed and reflexes anymore. Not a valid comparison. If it where then it would be just as valid to use the Walcott example as a blueprint for beating Louis (which it's not).

Poet

Greatest1942
06-19-2011, 12:57 PM
For starters, I can't stand Ali. I think he was a 24 karot azzhole. Secondly, my all-time favorite fighter happens to be Joe Louis. I don't play favorites when I analyze.....if I did we wouldn't be having this conversation.




This just validates the point I made about there not being any "right" or "wrong" in the ring but rather whether it works or not.




Like I said in my previous post even the best defensive fighters get landed on multiple times in every round of every fight. The next shutout I see pitched in boxing will be the first (obviously exempting one punch and done 1st round KOs like Thunder Vs. Grimsley). The Ali fans are engaing in hyperbole when they say untouchable. It would be much more accurate to say Ali was the most difficult to hit of all the great Heavies as "untouchable" has yet to be achieved by any fighter.

I haven't seen any one saying Chuvalo missed "all the time" (see above).....but he did miss far more than landed and that's ultimately the definition of good defense.




And Ali was a better and more lethal boxer than Billy Conn.....these comparisons work both ways.




Frazier threw 90% left hooks so what else was he going to hit Ali with (and a past-prime Ali at that)? The Cooper example, as I pointed out, had Ali being caught coming off the ropes with his feet tangled up: ANY hard punch landed at that point would have put him down.

Like I said, if you watch Ali's fights he doesn't get hit with left hooks any more than he gets hit with rights. If he had any sort of "special vulnerability" to them than all his opponents would have been throwing them at him all night long and bouncing off the canvas like a basketball.




You won't see Ali "running".....this is Ali not Mayweather here. Watch the Liston I: The only time you see Ali running is in the 5th when he's blind.....otherwise he's using his speed to attack from all angles and pull out before the reciept.

Poet

I am not saying that Chuvalo did not miss. He did miss against Ali but he landed enough to make Ali pass blood after the fight. U R missing the point. Ali was never fast enough to stay away from Louis all the time, and when Louis did get to Ali he would be far more dangerous. ALso Chuvalo was not a accurate puncher, not a hard puncher niether a lethal puncher. Chuvalo missed against A LOT OF FIGHTERS WHO WERE NOT ALI. I would say Louis could do more damage than Chuvalo did...and yes he wont miss that much..atleast not the guy who is rings #1 puncher...

The Cooper example is a valid one. If Ali got knocked down due to tangled feet why did he stay down for that long...Surely a slip wont take u that long to stay long...Ur confusing with Wepner here Poet..The Cooper punch was a real hard one...HE did not have any special vulnerability but he got hit by it more often.. and Yes I saw most of his fights. Please see the Cooper fight again.

Conn was a light weight who was a very correct boxer. Aside from their speed they have not much in common. Conn was greater boxer than Doug Jones also.

Frazier did throw left hooks all night long and Ali never quite made him bounce of the canvas. Ali was easy to hit to the body...he was tagged to the body by multiple guys...and when you take it to the body from a fast accurate puncher your speed slows down...No wonder Ali felt like dying after Manilla, Frazier did catch him there.

Ali is not Mayweather. He was great against Liston no doubt...I only wanted to state that even if Ali did run...being faster and all that...in a boxing ring Louis will always get to him , but might be in a field he wont...

AND YES FLOYD HAD A BAD BACK, AND GIVING HIM AS AN EXAMPLE DOESNT HELP YOUR ARGUEMENT.

ALi was great, but Louis just too complete for him IMO.

Ziggy Stardust
06-19-2011, 01:11 PM
I am not saying that Chuvalo did not miss. He did miss against Ali but he landed enough to make Ali pass blood after the fight. U R missing the point. Ali was never fast enough to stay away from Louis all the time, and when Louis did get to Ali he would be far more dangerous. ALso Chuvalo was not a accurate puncher, not a hard puncher niether a lethal puncher. Chuvalo missed against A LOT OF FIGHTERS WHO WERE NOT ALI. I would say Louis could do more damage than Chuvalo did...and yes he wont miss that much..atleast not the guy who is rings #1 puncher...

The Cooper example is a valid one. If Ali got knocked down due to tangled feet why did he stay down for that long...Surely a slip wont take u that long to stay long...Ur confusing with Wepner here Poet..The Cooper punch was a real hard one...HE did not have any special vulnerability but he got hit by it more often.. and Yes I saw most of his fights. Please see the Cooper fight again.

Conn was a light weight who was a very correct boxer. Aside from their speed they have not much in common. Conn was greater boxer than Doug Jones also.

Frazier did throw left hooks all night long and Ali never quite made him bounce of the canvas. Ali was easy to hit to the body...he was tagged to the body by multiple guys...and when you take it to the body from a fast accurate puncher your speed slows down...No wonder Ali felt like dying after Manilla, Frazier did catch him there.

Ali is not Mayweather. He was great against Liston no doubt...I only wanted to state that even if Ali did run...being faster and all that...in a boxing ring Louis will always get to him , but might be in a field he wont...

AND YES FLOYD HAD A BAD BACK, AND GIVING HIM AS AN EXAMPLE DOESNT HELP YOUR ARGUEMENT.

ALi was great, but Louis just too complete for him IMO.

I'm not talking about Ali going down from a slip. The point is, when you're bouncing off the ropes with your feet tangled up you're wide open for a punch.....any punch not just a left hook. Put some power behind it and you're likely to get dropped and hurt. In anycase, that flaw in Ali's footwork was fixed by the time he came into his prime from the Liston fight through 1967. Much the same way that Louis' flaw of dropping his left after the jab was fixed after the first Schmeling fight.

And by the way, put Ali in place of Conn and Louis has just as much difficulty tagging him and, here's the big difference, Ali was capable of seriously hurting Louis with his punches in a way Conn was not. Ali>>>>>>>>>>Conn offensively.....not even remotely close.

Poet

them_apples
06-19-2011, 01:24 PM
Ali would Merk Louis. Sorry to say.

In Ali's prime he had unreal mobility.

Louis is nothing like Frazier. You could argue maybe a tiny bit more power, but some might argue that Frazier hit harder. Regardless, Joe is FLATFOOTED and has no head movement. Frazier had continuous head movement and was quite fast at closing the distance on his oponents.

This is why Joe had trouble with Walcott and Conn, he only likes opponent's that stand right in front of him. Ali would have danced circles around him and caught him with straight rights over the top all night long, dropping him numerous times I imagine.

DarkTerror88
06-19-2011, 01:42 PM
In a perfect world it would go 5-5 in a 10 fight series. especially because we would get to see them fight 10 times! Honestly though i don't know. My brain says Ali, but my gut says Louis. >.<

kendom
06-19-2011, 01:46 PM
If no one was "able" to do it as you say, how can you logically infer that ANYONE would be able to do it? There's no evidence for it. No one was able to consistantly land on a prime Roy Jones either but that doesn't logically lead to the conclusion that "no one was doing it right".

And btw, Norton's style was based on taking away the jab not taking away speed. Ali had no problems throughout his career switching to lead rights when he had difficulty landing the jab.

By saying that no one was able to do it, I meant that the fighters Ali faced in his prime were not as skillful or had the style necessary to do it. Louis could do it, by blocking his jab and countering it, by body punching, and by taking away Alis jab he does neutralise Alis speed. And lead right wouldnt help him agamist Louis who was ammaster of blocking and countering.


O. Not a valid comparison. If it where then it would be just as valid to use thence again your using examples of a past-prime Ali who didn't have the speed and reflexes anymore Walcott example as a blueprint for beating Louis (which it's not).

Poet

Regardless of whether Ali was in prime or past prime he would still have had problems with Norton, just as in his prime Louis would still have had problems with Walcott, and Walcott isnt a good blue pprint for how a fight with Ali and Louis would go as Walcott was a fundamentally correct boxer-which Ali wasnt, he didnt make the same mistakes in the ring.

kendom
06-19-2011, 01:53 PM
Ali would Merk Louis. Sorry to say.

In Ali's prime he had unreal mobility.

Louis is nothing like Frazier. You could argue maybe a tiny bit more power, but some might argue that Frazier hit harder. Regardless, Joe is FLATFOOTED and has no head movement. Frazier had continuous head movement and was quite fast at closing the distance on his oponents.

This is why Joe had trouble with Walcott and Conn, he only likes opponent's that stand right in front of him. Ali would have danced circles around him and caught him with straight rights over the top all night long, dropping him numerous times I imagine.

Louis was a good stalker like Frazier, he didnt put anywhere near as much pressure but that wasnt his style, and most boxing historians would agree that Louis hit far harder than Frazier, and Louis did use head movement, you're repeating the same old rhetoric here "he would have danced circles around him" i've said already that Walcott and Conn were different from Ali as they were fundamentally correct boxers, how are you going to "dance all night" against someone whose handspeed is as fast as Louis when you're only mode of defense is leaning your head back as far as you can. If Louis feinted ( which Louis was a master at doing) then he would have Ali in serious trouble. Louis would block Alis jab and counter and break apart his rythmn, stalk him and pound the body.

Ziggy Stardust
06-19-2011, 01:54 PM
Ali would Merk Louis. Sorry to say.

In Ali's prime he had unreal mobility.

Louis is nothing like Frazier. You could argue maybe a tiny bit more power, but some might argue that Frazier hit harder. Regardless, Joe is FLATFOOTED and has no head movement. Frazier had continuous head movement and was quite fast at closing the distance on his oponents.

This is why Joe had trouble with Walcott and Conn, he only likes opponent's that stand right in front of him. Ali would have danced circles around him and caught him with straight rights over the top all night long, dropping him numerous times I imagine.

I think it's a much closer matchup that. I know you don't rate Louis (or any pre-1960 fighter for that matter.....fair enough but would be a good subject for a separate thread.) which I take into account.

I see it as more along the lines of a close decision for Ali in a one-off fight (say, 8-6-1 in rounds over 15) or a 5-4-1 split in favor of Ali if the fought 10 times.

Poet

Greatest1942
06-19-2011, 02:00 PM
I am not saying that Chuvalo did not miss. He did miss against Ali but he landed enough to make Ali pass blood after the fight. U R missing the point. Ali was never fast enough to stay away from Louis all the time, and when Louis did get to Ali he would be far more dangerous. ALso Chuvalo was not a accurate puncher, not a hard puncher niether a lethal puncher. Chuvalo missed against A LOT OF FIGHTERS WHO WERE NOT ALI. I would say Louis could do more damage than Chuvalo did...and yes he wont miss that much..atleast not the guy who is rings #1 puncher...

The Cooper example is a valid one. If Ali got knocked down due to tangled feet why did he stay down for that long...Surely a slip wont take u that long to stay long...Ur confusing with Wepner here Poet..The Cooper punch was a real hard one...HE did not have any special vulnerability but he got hit by it more often.. and Yes I saw most of his fights. Please see the Cooper fight again.

Conn was a light weight who was a very correct boxer. Aside from their speed they have not much in common. Conn was greater boxer than Doug Jones also.

Frazier did throw left hooks all night long and Ali never quite made him bounce of the canvas. Ali was easy to hit to the body...he was tagged to the body by multiple guys...and when you take it to the body from a fast accurate puncher your speed slows down...No wonder Ali felt like dying after Manilla, Frazier did catch him there.

Ali is not Mayweather. He was great against Liston no doubt...I only wanted to state that even if Ali did run...being faster and all that...in a boxing ring Louis will always get to him , but might be in a field he wont...

AND YES FLOYD HAD A BAD BACK, AND GIVING HIM AS AN EXAMPLE DOESNT HELP YOUR ARGUEMENT.

ALi was great, but Louis just too complete for him IMO.

And I have heard many Ali fans say that he could avoid the right easily...but ur saying he got hit by rights too...if he does get hit by the Joe Louis right often he might be in serious danger.

Greatest1942
06-19-2011, 02:05 PM
Ali would Merk Louis. Sorry to say.

In Ali's prime he had unreal mobility.

Louis is nothing like Frazier. You could argue maybe a tiny bit more power, but some might argue that Frazier hit harder. Regardless, Joe is FLATFOOTED and has no head movement. Frazier had continuous head movement and was quite fast at closing the distance on his oponents.

This is why Joe had trouble with Walcott and Conn, he only likes opponent's that stand right in front of him. Ali would have danced circles around him and caught him with straight rights over the top all night long, dropping him numerous times I imagine.
Sorry to break ur bubble...Walcott was the last fight of Louis..he retired after that..he weighed a carrer high at that point ..not his best shape..he kncoked him out still...at the same stage of their carrer Ali got beat by Leon Spinks...

So only Walcott and Conn were movers right that Louis faced...I dont need to comment on anything else...its no wonder good posters sometimes develop amnesia...

Ziggy Stardust
06-19-2011, 02:06 PM
And I have heard many Ali fans say that he could avoid the right easily...but ur saying he got hit by rights too...if he does get hit by the Joe Louis right often he might be in serious danger.

Name me the fighter who never gets hit by anything. It's not a question of "will a fighter get hit?" but rather a question of "can you hit him consistantly enough to win?" Like I said, even thevery best defensive fighters get hit. The difference is the best defensive fighters don't get hit consistantly enough for their opponents to win.

Poet

Greatest1942
06-19-2011, 02:12 PM
I'm not talking about Ali going down from a slip. The point is, when you're bouncing off the ropes with your feet tangled up you're wide open for a punch.....any punch not just a left hook. Put some power behind it and you're likely to get dropped and hurt. In anycase, that flaw in Ali's footwork was fixed by the time he came into his prime from the Liston fight through 1967. Much the same way that Louis' flaw of dropping his left after the jab was fixed after the first Schmeling fight.

And by the way, put Ali in place of Conn and Louis has just as much difficulty tagging him and, here's the big difference, Ali was capable of seriously hurting Louis with his punches in a way Conn was not. Ali>>>>>>>>>>Conn offensively.....not even remotely close.

Poet
I can do this too Poet.
Similarly Louis > Frazier >>>> Chuvalo
Frazier beat a Ali who near his prime, and put Louis in Chuvalos place and you will see that there is just as much diff. between him and Louis's offence as there is between Ali and Conn...And Yes not only was Louis a better puncher than these both he was far better technically and a better defensive fighter by a wide margin.

Ziggy Stardust
06-19-2011, 02:22 PM
I can do this too Poet.
Similarly Louis > Frazier >>>> Chuvalo
Frazier beat a Ali who near his prime, and put Louis in Chuvalos place and you will see that there is just as much diff. between him and Louis's offence as there is between Ali and Conn...And Yes not only was Louis a better puncher than these both he was far better technically and a better defensive fighter by a wide margin.

Frazier beat an Ali who's reflexes and footspeed had slipped noticably.....not a good comparison. And Frazier was an ATG level Heavyweight.....something Conn was not. Primary difference between the Conn and Chuvalo fights is that Conn was leading on the cards and Louis had to pull a KO out of his hat to win while Chuvalo got his azz kicked from pillar to post in a completely NON-competive fight. You seem to think that all Louis had to do was land a punch and it's all over.....this despite the fact that Ali's chin is considered by the experts to be the gold standard for Heavyweights (as is his ability to take it to the body).

Poet

Greatest1942
06-19-2011, 02:25 PM
Name me the fighter who never gets hit by anything. It's not a question of "will a fighter get hit?" but rather a question of "can you hit him consistantly enough to win?" Like I said, even thevery best defensive fighters get hit. The difference is the best defensive fighters don't get hit consistantly enough for their opponents to win.

Poet''

Many Ali fans say this ...I am sure you read those too Poet.

And yes Ali could be hit consistently enough for the other too win. Frazier did it..So in my opinion can a host of other ATGs. Ali was beaten by Norton(A past his prime Ali no doubt).

What I wanna say is ...that any fighter can beaten by other greats...Ali is no exception...when his physical atrributes faded Ali became more hittable...he never learnt proper defense...But in his prime...wahhh!!! he was difficult to hit..was it impossible to hit him consistently no I dont think so...average fighters got to him...and I am sure ATG greats will get to him more regularly to make it far closer than Chuvalo, Sonny Banks, Cooper, Folley et all...Will they win no one is sure...But I dont buy those arguments which state Ali will win hands down...If you think just because Folley could not hit Ali consistently so cant Louis...As I said before and I will say again " Louis can do much better than Chuvalo".

Louis had very fast hands..was more lethal than anyone Ali faced..and vice versa...It will be close...and speed does not guarantee a win against Louis...then believe me many would have beaten him.

Greatest1942
06-19-2011, 03:02 PM
Frazier beat an Ali who's reflexes and footspeed had slipped noticably.....not a good comparison. And Frazier was an ATG level Heavyweight.....something Conn was not. Primary difference between the Conn and Chuvalo fights is that Conn was leading on the cards and Louis had to pull a KO out of his hat to win while Chuvalo got his azz kicked from pillar to post in a completely NON-competive fight. You seem to think that all Louis had to do was land a punch and it's all over.....this despite the fact that Ali's chin is considered by the experts to be the gold standard for Heavyweights (as is his ability to take it to the body).

Poet


It was a good comparison..Ali was still near his prime...He still was quite fast..And yes Frazier was near his prime not at his prime as well..no matter what Ali fans say..compared to 1968-69 Frazier used his right hand much less and was already going slower. He was already diabetic too.. Sorry to burst that favorite bubble of Ali fans, but this was a near prime Ali against a near prime Frazier...Like the Foreman victory was Alis best yet he was never at his prime then so was Fraziers against Ali...dont confuse both.

Name one good fighter of his era Chuvalo beat. Conn atleast did that...Chuvalo got his ass kicked but still made Ali squirm due to his consistent body punching...And he won 2-3 rounds atleast. WHy shy away from the fact that Ali took enough to piss blood.Then either Ali's body was so delicate he pissed blood even when taking so little, or as I saw with my eyes he took enough...you dont piss blood everyday... AND it was a mediocre boxer who did it. You seem to miss the point I wanna make...and thats what Chuvalo could do Louis could do 10X better...So Ali might just find himself in some deep water.

Ali did not loose to Norton because he lost speed. He was still too fast for Norton. As Eddie Futch said...he lost because he did not know what to do with the parrying hand. I dont think it will matter if it was a prime or non 's prime Ali...A parrying hand will always trouble him. And lOUIS had a harder better jab and better followups. I will take Futch's ANALYSIS OVER ANYONE ELSE. Norton does not beat a prime Ali...but Louis being better in jab and almost everything does in my book

No I dont think there will be a knockout...Though I can say this once Louis catches Ali with some body shots there wont be much dancing...after all once ur hurt you cant float...the Frazier fight proved it...and just because Ali was never knocked out does not mean he never will...then Dempsey wont be ever ( he was Kod in fixed fight many say), Rocky Marciano etc etc...I believe Louis could KO anybosy..though most likely it will be a points decision vs Ali.

There is another primary difference between those fights..Louis was weight drained..theirs pretty reliable info on that...Ali was pretty fit..the second time...Louis caught up to a runner and KOd him...

The gold standard belongs to Chuvalo as far as chin goes in my book.

No use arguing you will never be able to convince me, you might some other boarders. And similarly neither can I.

them_apples
06-19-2011, 04:56 PM
I think it's a much closer matchup that. I know you don't rate Louis (or any pre-1960 fighter for that matter.....fair enough but would be a good subject for a separate thread.) which I take into account.

I see it as more along the lines of a close decision for Ali in a one-off fight (say, 8-6-1 in rounds over 15) or a 5-4-1 split in favor of Ali if the fought 10 times.

Poet

It's not that I don't rate Louis. I said that about 2 years ago but have since then changed my opinions. I'd have no problem giving Louis the win over fighters that don't come in the ring with the same mobility and hand speed. But Schmeling was able to lead with a right over Louis low left all night long. Ali is faster-taller and Longer than Schmeling and in 60's hit's a lot better. The simple "parry jab" is nothing Ali wouldn't have seen even in the am's. As we saw later on in his career, even with his legs gone, you needed a hell of a lot more than a simple amatuer trick like that. (I'm not reffering to you but another poster who claims this).

kendom
06-19-2011, 05:13 PM
It's not that I don't rate Louis. I said that about 2 years ago but have since then changed my opinions. I'd have no problem giving Louis the win over fighters that don't come in the ring with the same mobility and hand speed. But Schmeling was able to lead with a right over Louis low left all night long. Ali is faster-taller and Longer than Schmeling and in 60's hit's a lot better. The simple "parry jab" is nothing Ali wouldn't have seen even in the am's. As we saw later on in his career, even with his legs gone, you needed a hell of a lot more than a simple amatuer trick like that. (I'm not reffering to you but another poster who claims this).

Schmeling was able to do this becasue he exploited a weakness in Louis's style which he later fixed. This simple "parry jab" is the main reason why Ali struggled with Norton and why some historians even believed that Jack Johnson would defeat Ali. Nortons trainer Eddie Futch said it himself "the jab was a big reason Muhammad Ali never figured out why he had so much trouble with Ken Norton in their three fights.” It isnt an amateur trick most pro fighters today dont even learn to use it, it allowed a fighter who wasnt known for his speed to be able to keep up with him and give him three very close fights. If Norton could do that, Louis who is far more powerfu, a better technician with greater speed could do much worse, regardless of whether or not Ali was prime or past prime.

them_apples
06-20-2011, 01:53 AM
Schmeling was able to do this becasue he exploited a weakness in Louis's style which he later fixed. This simple "parry jab" is the main reason why Ali struggled with Norton and why some historians even believed that Jack Johnson would defeat Ali. Nortons trainer Eddie Futch said it himself "the jab was a big reason Muhammad Ali never figured out why he had so much trouble with Ken Norton in their three fights.” It isnt an amateur trick most pro fighters today dont even learn to use it, it allowed a fighter who wasnt known for his speed to be able to keep up with him and give him three very close fights. If Norton could do that, Louis who is far more powerfu, a better technician with greater speed could do much worse, regardless of whether or not Ali was prime or past prime.

Norton didn't just Parry the jab, he slipped it over his shoulder more times than I can even remember. Norton was an awkward fighter and if you were just going to sit on the outside and box with him, well he'd give you hell. Louis isn't defensively sound enough to thwart Ali's jab all night long. Louis was more so a devastating puncher on the inside who would stalk his opponent's, looking to land that right hand. Louis would get his licks in from time to time, but there is no way his defense can deal with Ali's assault.

Greatest1942
06-20-2011, 02:46 AM
Norton didn't just Parry the jab, he slipped it over his shoulder more times than I can even remember. Norton was an awkward fighter and if you were just going to sit on the outside and box with him, well he'd give you hell. Louis isn't defensively sound enough to thwart Ali's jab all night long. Louis was more so a devastating puncher on the inside who would stalk his opponent's, looking to land that right hand. Louis would get his licks in from time to time, but there is no way his defense can deal with Ali's assault.

Ye slipping punches over shoulders is a speciality of 100 of other boxer...It was teh parry and the jab timed with the parry, that confused Ali. He couldnt move away while teh jab hit him...I can say that Ali too is not defensively strong enough to avoid Louis...these kidn of statements dont mean much.

kendom
06-20-2011, 07:11 AM
Norton didn't just Parry the jab, he slipped it over his shoulder more times than I can even remember. Norton was an awkward fighter and if you were just going to sit on the outside and box with him, well he'd give you hell. Louis isn't defensively sound enough to thwart Ali's jab all night long. Louis was more so a devastating puncher on the inside who would stalk his opponent's, looking to land that right hand. Louis would get his licks in from time to time, but there is no way his defense can deal with Ali's assault.

Why isnt he defensive enough to thwart Alis jab all night long? Louis had a great defense, blocking parry, slipping jabs and it was definetly the jab problem that hurt Ali in the case of Norton, Louis is a lot more complete than you give him credit for, and why would it be so hard fo him to keep up with Alis assault when hes costantly blocking the jab? blocking alis jab would destroy his ryhtmn

them_apples
06-20-2011, 02:34 PM
Why isnt he defensive enough to thwart Alis jab all night long? Louis had a great defense, blocking parry, slipping jabs and it was definetly the jab problem that hurt Ali in the case of Norton, Louis is a lot more complete than you give him credit for, and why would it be so hard fo him to keep up with Alis assault when hes costantly blocking the jab? blocking alis jab would destroy his ryhtmn

he got dropped numerous time in his career because of poor defense. EVERYONE tried parrying Ali's jab. Like I said thats something you learn in the Am's. Just look at Foreman and Williams coming in trying to Parry the jab. Louis would come in the same way only he's smaller. On the inside yes he would do more damage than them, but not enough to get rid of Ali.

Ziggy Stardust
06-20-2011, 02:40 PM
he got dropped numerous time in his career because of poor defense. EVERYONE tried parrying Ali's jab. Like I said thats something you learn in the Am's. Just look at Foreman and Williams coming in trying to Parry the jab. Louis would come in the same way only he's smaller. On the inside yes he would do more damage than them, but not enough to get rid of Ali.

BTW, I was unaware you had changed your views on Louis so my apologies for misrepresenting you :)

Poet

kendom
06-20-2011, 03:06 PM
he got dropped numerous time in his career because of poor defense. EVERYONE tried parrying Ali's jab. Like I said thats something you learn in the Am's. Just look at Foreman and Williams coming in trying to Parry the jab. Louis would come in the same way only he's smaller. On the inside yes he would do more damage than them, but not enough to get rid of Ali.

numerous times? in his prime he was only dropped 2 times(correct if im wrong) by buddy baer and Tony Galento which were of the flask knockdown variety-lets not exaggerate, many heavyweights are knocked down, Jack johnson was knocked down by a crude brawler like Stanley Ketchel, did he have poor defense? Holmes was knocked down by Renaldo Snipes and Earnie Shavers did he have poor defense?, if everyone tried parrying his jab then Norton was the only one to use it to great success, and why wouldnt he do enough to get rid of Ali? body shots go a loooooooong way to slow a fighter down, coupled with the technical difficulty Ali would be experiencing with the blocking and countering of his jab, and the fact that Ali would be flirting with danger leaning back to avoid Louis blows, no mans chin is impregable, especially among the heavyweight division, I can see Ali getting knocked out, possibley around the 13th round.

JAB5239
06-20-2011, 06:19 PM
numerous times? in his prime he was only dropped 2 times(correct if im wrong) by buddy baer and Tony Galento which were of the flask knockdown variety.

Schmeling, Braddock, and Walcott. Not all in his prime and not all because he had a weak chin either. If we're going to look at Joe's chin as weak, than we have to look at his amazing skills to recuperate as well. This is something that is seldom talked about.

them_apples
06-21-2011, 02:05 AM
Schmeling, Braddock, and Walcott. Not all in his prime and not all because he had a weak chin either. If we're going to look at Joe's chin as weak, than we have to look at his amazing skills to recuperate as well. This is something that is seldom talked about.



I don't think he was chinny, he just had poor defense and was caught with big punches. Thats my argument. Why Ali wouldn't catch him and drop him enough times too make it a lopsided decision is beyond me.

Greatest1942
06-21-2011, 02:12 AM
I don't think he was chinny, he just had poor defense and was caught with big punches. Thats my argument. Why Ali wouldn't catch him and drop him enough times too make it a lopsided decision is beyond me.

This kind of logic is fun.

Ali himself was caught with big punches often...In his prime and more so when past his prime.
Sonny Banks, Cooper, Frazier all dropped him. He was caught with some big punches against Oscar...Norton broke his jaw...Leon Spinks beat him...

Why can't Louis who was a far better puncher than all of the above beat him to a lopsided decision..
This is my counter arguement.:burnout:

kendom
06-21-2011, 05:29 AM
Schmeling, Braddock, and Walcott. Not all in his prime and not all because he had a weak chin either. If we're going to look at Joe's chin as weak, than we have to look at his amazing skills to recuperate as well. This is something that is seldom talked about.



I know the recuperative ability is always overlooked because he was knocked down, whenever he was knocked down he quickly got back up and was in control of the fight, my point is Louis didnt have a poor defense at all- many heavyweights before have been knocked down by lesser fighters. You cant use those knockdowns as evidence that he had "poor defense"

Greatest1942
06-21-2011, 06:01 AM
I know the recuperative ability is always overlooked because he was knocked down, whenever he was knocked down he quickly got back up and was in control of the fight, my point is Louis didnt have a poor defense at all- many heavyweights before have been knocked down by lesser fighters. You cant use those knockdowns as evidence that he had "poor defense"


Yea Ali had the better chin and Louis had phenomenal recovery..most of his knock downs were flash knock downs where he got back up immediately. There will hardly be a KO.

Its actually fun discussing these stuffs with guys like Poet. Ultimately honestly it doesnt matter who beats who. They are the top 2 in any list and their legacies are cemented.

Lets understand one thing Louis could beat Ali and Ali could beat Louis. They never met and never will unfortunately...but who cares...two greats of boxing
When I look around the heavy weight division now, I shake my head...God how we miss those great heavies of the past

Greatest1942
06-21-2011, 06:31 AM
Yea Ali had the better chin and Louis had phenomenal recovery..most of his knock downs were flash knock downs where he got back up immediately. There will hardly be a KO.

Its actually fun discussing these stuffs with guys like Poet. Ultimately honestly it doesnt matter who beats who. They are the top 2 in any list and their legacies are cemented.

Lets understand one thing Louis could beat Ali and Ali could beat Louis. They never met and never will unfortunately...but who cares...two greats of boxing
When I look around the heavy weight division now, I shake my head...God how we miss those great heavies of the past


Poet I also believe that while trying to play with his opponenets head Ali often went over the line. The hatred that Frazier feels for Ali today is not totally unjust.

"Truth is, I'd like to rumble with that sucker again—beat him up piece by piece and mail him back to Jesus.... Now people ask me if I feel bad for him, now that things aren't going so well for him. Nope. I don't. Fact is, I don't give a damn. They want me to love him, but I'll open up the graveyard and bury his ass when the Lord chooses to take him."---Joe Frazier.

KO'er
06-21-2011, 09:49 AM
A lot of the time I say it's impossible to say who'd win, so I declare it a draw. But Ali before his exile was just so quick, had incredible feet, I think Joe would struggle to take him down and I think Ali would win in points. Plus when Ali was 27-28, and 29 (29 if he never got stopped boxing, he was 29 when he fought Quarry but coming back after exile) would have been at his peak, and we never saw that. On the other hand, Joe was 3 months shy of 28 before he got called in WW2.

I'm of the opinion if Ali wasn't banned, he would have beat Joe's 25 title defence's record, but then again Joe was stopped boxing just before he was 28.

Ziggy Stardust
06-21-2011, 11:37 AM
Poet I also believe that while trying to play with his opponenets head Ali often went over the line. The hatred that Frazier feels for Ali today is not totally unjust.

"Truth is, I'd like to rumble with that sucker again—beat him up piece by piece and mail him back to Jesus.... Now people ask me if I feel bad for him, now that things aren't going so well for him. Nope. I don't. Fact is, I don't give a damn. They want me to love him, but I'll open up the graveyard and bury his ass when the Lord chooses to take him."---Joe Frazier.

And THAT is why I dislike Ali on a personal level. I just don't let my personal antipathy for him color my perception of him as a fighter. I can't stand Ray Leonard either.....but he was still an incredible fighter even if he was a pr1ck.

Poet

kendom
06-21-2011, 11:38 AM
A lot of the time I say it's impossible to say who'd win, so I declare it a draw. But Ali before his exile was just so quick, had incredible feet, I think Joe would struggle to take him down and I think Ali would win in points. Plus when Ali was 27-28, and 29 (29 if he never got stopped boxing, he was 29 when he fought Quarry but coming back after exile) would have been at his peak, and we never saw that. On the other hand, Joe was 3 months shy of 28 before he got called in WW2.

I'm of the opinion if Ali wasn't banned, he would have beat Joe's 25 title defence's record, but then again Joe was stopped boxing just before he was 28.

I dont agree, Alis era was too competitive to go 25 defences, I think that he would have ran into Frazier and lost, I think that whatever version of Ali fought Frazier, if they fought 3 times Frazier would at least have one victory.

Greatest1942
06-21-2011, 12:00 PM
And THAT is why I dislike Ali on a personal level. I just don't let my personal antipathy for him color my perception of him as a fighter. I can't stand Ray Leonard either.....but he was still an incredible fighter even if he was a pr1ck.

Poet

I on the contrary have no dislike for ALI...BUT how ever I do think he would have got beat by LOuis...doesnt matter both greats as I said earlier.

Ziggy Stardust
06-21-2011, 12:20 PM
I on the contrary have no dislike for ALI...BUT how ever I do think he would have got beat by LOuis...doesnt matter both greats as I said earlier.

Conversly, I'm VERY fond of Floyd Patterson.....I just don't think he was good enough at Heavyweight to be considered ATG calibre. A very good fighter, a near-great if you will, just not good enough to be placed with the elites of the division. Now if he just stayed at Light-Heavy.....

Poet

them_apples
06-21-2011, 02:22 PM
This kind of logic is fun.

Ali himself was caught with big punches often...In his prime and more so when past his prime.
Sonny Banks, Cooper, Frazier all dropped him. He was caught with some big punches against Oscar...Norton broke his jaw...Leon Spinks beat him...

Why can't Louis who was a far better puncher than all of the above beat him to a lopsided decision..
This is my counter arguement.:burnout:

"Oscar...Norton broke his jaw...Leon Spinks beat him..." yeah but they didn't drop him, he was tough as nails. Don't know why you even brought this up. Oscar bonevena was a huge puncher, it's just testament to how tough Ali was. I can say the same about Foreman and Shavers hitting him as to why could Louis hurt him. I know skill has a lot to do with it, Louis would eat him up on the inside, but after watching the Frazier fights - I don't see Louis having the tools to get inside. Ali had lost his legs in his comeback and even then an ATG pressure fighter like Frazier had the hardest time getting inside.

Fact is, Ali has a lot more tools that could give Louis tons of problems. Louis is slow of foot (as seen in the Walcott fight how movement screwed with his plan) Louis has a low left hand and no head movement, Ali has probably the cleanest right hand in HW history. On top of that, Ali dwarfs him, and Louis wouldn't close the distance quick enough to negate this. Ali has an 80 reach.

Why couldn't Louis do what Frazier did? well for one, watch Ali in the Williams fight, he basically weighs the same as in the first Frazier fight, only he's jumping around the ring without getting fatigued. That's his prime. Louis fights nothing like Frazier. Frazier's gameplan was to get inside, and he was good at it. Moving his head continuously as well as having a very fast left hand. Louis isn't going to do what Frazier did. No he will do what Foreman did, coming forward, stalking his opponent like he did in all 25 title defenses. Louis only chance is to get a KO. and sorry, Ali isn't going to get sparked by one punch in the championship rounds like Walcott did.

them_apples
06-21-2011, 02:25 PM
Conversly, I'm VERY fond of Floyd Patterson.....I just don't think he was good enough at Heavyweight to be considered ATG calibre. A very good fighter, a near-great if you will, just not good enough to be placed with the elites of the division. Now if he just stayed at Light-Heavy.....

Poet

Patterson vs Foster :D

Ziggy Stardust
06-21-2011, 02:28 PM
Patterson vs Foster :D

I'd favor Patterson :) Both had terrific left-hooks and both had questionable chins (at least at Heavyweight).....My bet is Floyd with his faster hands gets his hook in first :boxing:

Poet

Greatest1942
06-22-2011, 03:20 AM
"Oscar...Norton broke his jaw...Leon Spinks beat him..." yeah but they didn't drop him, he was tough as nails. Don't know why you even brought this up. Oscar bonevena was a huge puncher, it's just testament to how tough Ali was. I can say the same about Foreman and Shavers hitting him as to why could Louis hurt him. I know skill has a lot to do with it, Louis would eat him up on the inside, but after watching the Frazier fights - I don't see Louis having the tools to get inside. Ali had lost his legs in his comeback and even then an ATG pressure fighter like Frazier had the hardest time getting inside.

Fact is, Ali has a lot more tools that could give Louis tons of problems. Louis is slow of foot (as seen in the Walcott fight how movement screwed with his plan) Louis has a low left hand and no head movement, Ali has probably the cleanest right hand in HW history. On top of that, Ali dwarfs him, and Louis wouldn't close the distance quick enough to negate this. Ali has an 80 reach.

Why couldn't Louis do what Frazier did? well for one, watch Ali in the Williams fight, he basically weighs the same as in the first Frazier fight, only he's jumping around the ring without getting fatigued. That's his prime. Louis fights nothing like Frazier. Frazier's gameplan was to get inside, and he was good at it. Moving his head continuously as well as having a very fast left hand. Louis isn't going to do what Frazier did. No he will do what Foreman did, coming forward, stalking his opponent like he did in all 25 title defenses. Louis only chance is to get a KO. and sorry, Ali isn't going to get sparked by one punch in the championship rounds like Walcott did.

Have you heard of Max baer? He did not drop Louis either. And you speak of Oscar ...yea he was a huge puncher...right...but was Sonny Banks so? Was henry Cooper so? Baer was a harder puncher than Oscar, Sonny Banks or the legendary Cooper.

Louis was not slow of foot...see Buddy Baer Louis 2 fight...he fought that way. You bring up Walcott time and again, but that was clearly a over weight Louis in his last fight. See Ali in his wars with Leon Spinks ...check Spinks record. If Spinks can give Ali trouble at that stage Walcott would give him hell. Foreman and Louis are completely different fighters...This is alarming...what you are saying. Foreman was never even remotely like Louis...LOuis did have good head movement and upper body reflexes. See some of his videos with unbiased eyes. Frazier never parried , forget Foreman to whom it must be like rocket science. Louis did. Foreman did not have the jab of LOuis. Frazier did not have the right hand of Louis.

You bring up the Williams fight....Oh great example..really great..so thats his prime right beating a guy who was shot in the belly lost part of his intestines and could hardly move well. I REPEAT ONLY A BIASED ALI WORSHIPPER WILL SAY THAT THIS IS WILLIAMS THAT LISTON BEAT.

I WILL MAKE THIS CLEAR TOO YOU...forget Frazier who was an ATG even the medicore George Chuvalo got inside and made Ali piss blood. Either your god has a delicate body or George did really get inside you know.

Yes I am not sure Louis will beta Ali. Neither are you...Just saying these things will not convince me, you will convince some Ali fanatics and yourself.

check hook
06-23-2011, 04:10 AM
Joe Louis and Muhammad Ali are inarguably two of the greatest heavyweights of all time. In a match up I think that Joe Louis would come out the victor, he had trouble with quick moving fighters, however Conn was 170 lbs Ali was 212 lbs around his prime a much bigger target and Conn was also a much more correct boxer (fundamentally) and didnt make the costly mistakes Ali made such as never learning how to block a jab or being prone to left hooks and good jabbers, Frazier mapped out Louis plan to beat Ali in 1971, for that reason I think that Louis would have beaten him head to head.



I love Joe Louis, but i'm not so certain. He was much better against aggressive fighters who liked to come forward. Ali would be bouncing around and fighting him moving backwards. I don't see Louis winning this one, Ali would get on his bike and jab to a win.

Miburo
06-23-2011, 03:10 PM
Prime Ali is a terrible match-up for Louis. As long as he stays mobile I think he boxes his way to a decision. Prime Louis vs. the older, comeback Ali is a more interesting fight.

kendom
06-23-2011, 07:14 PM
Prime Ali is a terrible match-up for Louis. As long as he stays mobile I think he boxes his way to a decision. Prime Louis vs. the older, comeback Ali is a more interesting fight.

Hve you read my arguments in this thread refuting this statement?

Miburo
06-23-2011, 07:18 PM
Hve you read my arguments in this thread refuting this statement?

I completely disagree with them, so there's no refutation. Sorry, you weren't able to run over everybody :wave: Ali might not dominate, but he'd sure as hell win.

RurouniYume
06-23-2011, 09:08 PM
I think they were both legends and find it disrespectful to put either of them below another boxer

nomadman
06-24-2011, 05:38 AM
Conversly, I'm VERY fond of Floyd Patterson.....I just don't think he was good enough at Heavyweight to be considered ATG calibre. A very good fighter, a near-great if you will, just not good enough to be placed with the elites of the division. Now if he just stayed at Light-Heavy.....

Would you say that was mainly due to his size and punch durability?

Greatest1942
06-24-2011, 08:47 AM
Would you say that was mainly due to his size and punch durability?

I think Floyd was too small in teh bones to be a heavy weight. He won Olympic gold at middle weight. His size was not ideal for heavy weight. And not many middles or light heavies can take punch from full blown heavies, with massive skeletons. All in all Floyd was better suited for light heavy.

Ziggy Stardust
06-24-2011, 09:36 AM
Would you say that was mainly due to his size and punch durability?

You might say Floyd's punch resistance at Heavy was.....lacking. Couple that with a very short reach and there's a big problem.

Poet

kendom
06-24-2011, 10:31 AM
I completely disagree with them, so there's no refutation. Sorry, you weren't able to run over everybody :wave: Ali might not dominate, but he'd sure as hell win.

How exactly would he win against Louis its not enough to disagree with my statements you have to tell me where I'm wrong cause ive gone over this time and time again