View Full Version : Futch-Arcel, who was the greater trainer?


JAB5239
06-05-2011, 04:38 AM
Both Ray Arcel and Eddie Futch trained some of the greatest champions in history. In your opinion, who was the greater trainer and why? Do you base your opinion solely on the names they trained or do you look at who they developed a fighter and the game plans they brought into the biggest fights. Vote and discuss.

Barn
06-05-2011, 06:48 AM
It's got to be Arcel for the pure fact he trained 20WC.

3 of them included in my Top 10 P4P.

IronDanHamza
06-05-2011, 08:54 AM
Ray Arcel.

Greatest trainer of all time.

Pastrano
06-05-2011, 08:58 AM
I gravitate towards Futch because he trained 2 of my favorite hw's, Smokin' Joe and Riddick Bowe. I have heard of Arcel, but don't know that much about him, so the choice is pretty obvious.:D

Barn
06-05-2011, 09:01 AM
I gravitate towards Futch because he trained 2 of my favorite hw's, Smokin' Joe and Riddick Bowe. I have heard of Arcel, but don't know that much about him, so the choice is pretty obvious.:D
Eddie Futch didn't actually take the role of main trainer until Yanky Durham died, which was after his best win in FOTC. So his impact on Frazier is over-rated IMO.

Pastrano
06-05-2011, 09:03 AM
Eddie Futch didn't actually take the role of main trainer until Yanky Durham died, which was after his best win in FOTC. So his impact on Frazier is over-rated IMO.

Doesn't matter. He did some good work with Joe. And he also trained Magic Man Starling, another HOF-worthy fighter.

Barn
06-05-2011, 09:05 AM
Doesn't matter. He did some good work with Joe. And he also trained Magic Man Starling, another HOF-worthy fighter.
Of course, I still have him a Top 3 ATG trainer, I'm just pointing that his work with Frazier is not all it seemed at first.

Toney616
06-05-2011, 11:09 AM
Eddie Futch didn't actually take the role of main trainer until Yanky Durham died, which was after his best win in FOTC. So his impact on Frazier is over-rated IMO.
Futch was the one who basically laid out the groundwork while Yurham was in charge. He didnt want to take the spotlight, so he had no problem taking a backseat and allowing Durham to take the main credit

I dont know much about Arcel, which kinds of disqualifies me form this debate

Ziggy Stardust
06-05-2011, 11:36 AM
Futch by a hair.....wouldn't quibble over someone having Arcel ahead though. Really they're 1-A 1-B GOAT trainers.

Poet

JAB5239
06-05-2011, 01:50 PM
Futch by a hair.....wouldn't quibble over someone having Arcel ahead though. Really they're 1-A 1-B GOAT trainers.

Poet

This is pretty much how I see it. I slightly lean towards Futch because I know he designed game plans to beat Ali. Thats pretty big in my opinion.

Wild Blue Yonda
06-06-2011, 02:08 AM
Futch was the one who basically laid out the groundwork while Yurham was in charge. He didnt want to take the spotlight, so he had no problem taking a backseat and allowing Durham to take the main credit

I dont know much about Arcel, which kinds of disqualifies me form this debate

I wouldn't be so sure of that, if I were you. Durham was taking credit for a reason. He had Frazier's ear at least as much as Futch did. It was said that Durham was a little more important in the pure aspect of motivation for Frazier.

Frazier still credits Durham with a 30-second speech which he was replaying in his head even as he entered the arena for his first fight with Ali, undoubtedly the biggest occasion of his career. The quote, which came during camp weeks before the fight, was something along the lines of, "This is it, Joe. This is where God judges you. Lose this fight, & they'll be saying you were just a seat-warmer for Clay, & always were."

Frazier said he lived & breathed that quote, he fed on it, it drove him.

Durham had huge influence on Frazier. I actually went with Arcel in this poll, at any point. He improved Duran, & for a fighter firstly so talented, & secondly so recklessly aggressive in his early LW days, that takes enormous know-how, patience, & expertise --- the kind only working with impresarios like Jack Dempsey & Benny Leonard can afford you. To say nothing of Duran's weight issues he was repeatedly distracted with.

Arcel for me, but Futch is beyond reproach in his own right.

JAB5239
06-06-2011, 02:55 AM
I wouldn't be so sure of that, if I were you. Durham was taking credit for a reason. He had Frazier's ear at least as much as Futch did. It was said that Durham was a little more important in the pure aspect of motivation for Frazier.

Frazier still credits Durham with a 30-second speech which he was replaying in his head even as he entered the arena for his first fight with Ali, undoubtedly the biggest occasion of his career. The quote, which came during camp weeks before the fight, was something along the lines of, "This is it, Joe. This is where God judges you. Lose this fight, & they'll be saying you were just a seat-warmer for Clay, & always were."

Frazier said he lived & breathed that quote, he fed on it, it drove him.

Durham had huge influence on Frazier. I actually went with Arcel in this poll, at any point. He improved Duran, & for a fighter firstly so talented, & secondly so recklessly aggressive in his early LW days, that takes enormous know-how, patience, & expertise --- the kind only working with impresarios like Jack Dempsey & Benny Leonard can afford you. To say nothing of Duran's weight issues he was repeatedly distracted with.

Arcel for me, but Futch is beyond reproach in his own right.

Great post WBY!

NChristo
06-06-2011, 11:19 AM
Arcel for me and it's scary to that although he trained 20 Champions and many ATGs / HOFs we still missed a lot of years from him because of the lead pipe event in 53', 20 or so years out of boxing for him to come back and train Duran (Although Freddie Brown demands just as much respect for training him) among others is just phenomenal.

Wild Blue Yonda
06-06-2011, 11:18 PM
Great post WBY!

Thanking you.