View Full Version : Archie Moore vs Cassius Clay


Toney616
05-30-2011, 06:25 AM
He put Archie away in the predicted four rounds, and the crowd booed as he stomped around Archie, shouting: "Where's the dishes? Where's the laundry? Gimme the laundry!" After the fight he visited Clay. "I'm tired," he said. "I'm done. Never show up other fighters, son. You may be coming down yourself one day." Clay shrugged him off, laughed; to him Archie was just a busted out swami.


1962

http://www.boxing-memorabilia.com/images/BIoClay12.jpg

Alexander the great meets Socrates.

The Syndicate said they were in no hurry. Clay needed direction and protection, "would not be sacrificed." They submitted him to the light of Archie Moore, still fighter, and known as a sharp mind. Alexander the great meets Socrates.

Archie was a man of many parts. His diction was precise, his manner effortless and worldly. He played piano, was an expert pistol shot, a splendid cook who needed three wardrobe sizes as he chased the money well over twenty six hard, hard years in something like four hundred fights. He was the first to look different as a fighter, stepping into the ring in blazing colors or looking like a Moorish King. He was the first to make predictions (usually wrong) and to create rhyme. In London he walked the streets in a top hat, striped pants, and tapping a cane. Clay would later make all the papers and the cover of S.I doing the same. The syndicate thought Archie would give the kid some maturity. cultivate discipline and presence.

There were also aspects to his craft. Relaxation, he said , required slipping into impregnable defense until the danger passed against heavy punchers. He called it the "turtle shell," and Clay used it (naming it the Rope a Dope) against George Foreman in Zaire. Escapology was back pedaling; Breathology was conservation of breath. And Applied Muscular Tension was the use of feinting and moving to defuse the other man's tension, a grouping of striking force. His every move was calculated, a patient search for one moment, where he would drop a eight-inch right hand from a ninety degree angle. "with five hundred pounds of pressure per square inch," he would add. Ever the scientist with examining monocle, Archie.

Clay turned up on the Moore grounds outside San Diego in 1960. Archie joked that the place was more suitable or indigent managers. He'd supply them with cheap cigars, get them out of bed"with a black snake whip," and give them a hour to lie and boast after a five mile of roadwork. He'd have a common name for them-bum; that's what they called the "kids they saved off of." It was a hot, desolate camp, suitable for Archie, who thought deprivation and isolation cleansing; the place was called the salt mine, and the gym was the Bucket of Blood, all of it on a rocky ridge of hills, up which Clay would have to run daily. "The place was hell," He'd say. He had expected a retreat, perhaps a shaded oasis where he and Archie would sit around eating grapes and contemplating the kids infinite future. He instead saw an Archie Moore, divested of his plummery, who looked like a tenant farmer. Archie handed him some blue overalls. Sometimes during a break, they sprawled on the rocks, and the old campaigner would discuss ring craft as he were probing quasars. They talked about comportment, the need to have character, bowing to no man. They didn't talk about race except when Archie told him about his role in Huckleberry Finn, how he resented the word "******" in the script and quietly went around the director to get it excised.

"I want to stand straight and high as a champ," Clay said.
"So does an oak tree," Archie said. "But you have to bend and stray. Oak trees make good coffins too."
Once an ex-fighter, not to old, came by, and Archie slipped him some money and gave him a meal. "He lives out in the desert here," Moore told Clay, "like a prairie gopher. You can see he's not well mentally. The trick, son, is not to end up in any kind of desert, to be smart, know the road out."
"Took too many punches, huh?" Clay said. "well, I don't take punches that's for sure."
"The ring isn't play," Archie said.
"Don't be worryin' 'bout me."

"Well, with that attitude, I'll tell you where you're going to end up. With people laughing at you in the gym, or people feeling sorry or you. People dropping a buck on you, and if they remember, and you were good enough, maybe a benefit to hep you, and then they'll forget. There are no pensions for boxers, no old age homes."


"That's not me," Clay said. "Do I look dumb?"
"Listen. Look at me. What do you see?"
"You got some years on ya, not much else."
"Do I talk like I got a mouthful of mush? You see a man behind these eyes, a working brain?"
"Come on, Mr Archie," Clay said. "I don't like starin' at people."
"Just get like me," Archie said. "that's all I want. You're a good kid."

Friction soon broke out in the camp. All the young trainees had steady chores, and Moore insisted they be carried out; just as vital as good gym habits. Clay began to object to the meniality. It disfigured his idea of his own rank. "I ain't washin' dishes no more, " he told Archie. "I ain't no pearl diver." Eventually, Archie called Bill Faversham, head of the Louisville Syndicate, saying: "I have to ask you to bring the boy home. My wife and kids is crazy about him, and so am I. But he won't do what I tell him to do. He thinks I'm trying to change him in some way, but all I want is for him to grow. "Faversham said that, maybe, he needed a good spanking. "He sure does," Archie said, "but I don't know who's going to give him one, including me."

Archie summed up his view of Clay years later. "Underneath," he said, "he's a fine human being. But his ego and fears are always in battle, and sometimes it leaves him empty inside. He's always going to be that, a lonely and hollow man. He's scared of life, never learned to live it right. He wanted to listen. But his ego wouldn't hear. I'm not so sure the Muslims are using him. It may be the other way round."

Two years later Archie got a spanking from Clay. He must have been flattered even to get the bout, for he had began his career in 1936, and here he was in 1962 being taken seriously. Well, not that much. Clay advertised the fight what he thought of Archie by hiring a sixty three year old sparring partner named One-Round Andrews.He put Archie away in the predicted four rounds, and the crowd booed as he stomped around Archie, shouting: "Where's the dishes? Where's the laundry? Gimme the laundry!" After the fight he visted Clay. "I'm tired," he said. "I'm done. Never show up other fighters, son. You may be coming down yourself one day." Clay shrugged him off, laughed; to him Archie was just a busted out swami.

Endings

They were gone now, most of those who peopled the parabola of his ring life, and memory calls them up, just flickers of thought with no ordering of place or value. Oscar Bonavena: shot to death outside a Nevada whorehouse for trying to woo the owners wife and take the joint over. Jerry Quarry the best heavy since Marciano, constantly trumped by his betters in the division, not knowing how to find the bathroom in his brothers small house, his food having to be cut in small pieces, then dying of erosive brain trauma. Cleveland Williams: having to run down his manger for his money on the street, then being handled a swindling $37.50 as his end, with his manager Hugh Benbow berating him. "I'm ashamed of you." The big cat died in an accident coming home from dialysis treatment. George Chuvalo: a good man with a bad roll, two sons lost t o drugs and suicide and finally the suicide of his wife. Archie Moore: the mentally bejeweled fakir, above all, who knew he most and was listened to the least; he ;lived, like one of his oaks, to a grateful, long age.


http://top-10-list.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/archie-moore.jpg
December 13, 1913 December 9, 1998
RIP

"He wanted to listen. But his ego wouldn't hear."
-Archie Moore


After the fight he visited Clay. "I'm tired," he said. "I'm done. Never show up other fighters, son. You may be coming down yourself one day." Clay shrugged him off, laughed; to him Archie was just a busted out swami.


1981
http://www.sweetfights.com/fd_1_b.jpg

"If he listened to what I was trying to teach him, he wouldn't of had to take such a bad beating during the second part of his career"
-Archie Moore


Next:
Frazier goes to war
http://www.celebritiesfans.com/Pic/joefrazier.jpg
The police put a watch on Frazier, his wife, and his children. History had proven that Ali's Muslim collegues were capable of killing.




Sources:

Ghosts of Manila: The Fateful Blood Feud Between Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier
- Mark Kram

Muhammad Ali: His Life and Times- Thomas Hauser

Jury
05-31-2011, 04:34 AM
Ali was a tremendous name to have on his great record, even if he was in his fifties when he fought him.

Jim Jeffries
05-31-2011, 01:54 PM
Nice read, gotta love old Archie, RIP. I don't think Big George's comeback would've been as successful without him.

Steak
05-31-2011, 02:04 PM
Moore was such an amazing fighter and person.
how could you not like the guy?

paul750
03-15-2012, 08:12 PM
Good read. Wise words indeed.

Toney616
03-20-2012, 08:51 AM
Nice read, gotta love old Archie, RIP. I don't think Big George's comeback would've been as successful without him.

Good read. Wise words indeed.
Thanks:boxing:

Ray Corso
03-20-2012, 04:15 PM
Ali said and did alot of things he wasn't very proud of later on in life but we all have done that. Archie Moore came to fight throughout his long career and you got your moneys worth out of him as a fan of boxing. He needed that little bit of money from the Ali bout and knew he couldn't do anything against the then "kid"!
Good trivia for you all whos the only man to fight Marciano and Clay (Ali)'''''''''''''''''''Archie Moore. Who has more knockout WINS then any other modern day fighter? Archie Moore (125KOs) I think hahaha!! A great man. Ray

SophiaColls
07-11-2013, 09:22 PM
I agree with you, the boxers don't have the pension to afford an old age home they have to make savings to secure our future work. Most of the boxers have a limited time of the era when they really earn their life, so they should take steps for this very carefully.

mickey malone
07-12-2013, 05:10 AM
Ali was a tremendous name to have on his great record, even if he was in his fifties when he fought him.
Just sad, it was only for the money.. Lot of fighters would've taken a dive in that situation, but not Archie, and as you rightly point out, how old was he!!!!!

Great thread btw.. Moore had a boxing career of epic proportion, fought more atg's than anyone i can think of off the top of my head, same as i can't think of anyone with more ko's.. Great Great Fighter!

PUK_MY_DANG_34
07-12-2013, 06:11 AM
Have you ever read Ghosts of Manila: The Fateful Blood Feud Between Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier?

mickey malone
07-12-2013, 06:48 AM
Have you ever read Ghosts of Manila: The Fateful Blood Feud Between Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier?
No, tbh i have'nt read it but i'll put it on my 'to do' list.

Does it expose the full extent of Ali's goading and perpetual piss taking of Frazier?

PUK_MY_DANG_34
07-12-2013, 07:43 AM
No, tbh i have'nt read it but i'll put it on my 'to do' list.

Does it expose the full extent of Ali's goading and perpetual piss taking of Frazier?

It does exactly that. The writer, Mark Kram, makes it increasingly obvious during the course of the book that he is none to keen of Ali, and to a lesser extent Joe Frazier. Besides the authors hatred it's an incredible read, chronicling the entire careers(with an extra emphasis on the Ali-Frazier trilogy) of both fighters from the beginning to long after they hung up the gloves. Mark Kram was a writer for Sports Illustrated for about a decade and covered Ali more than any other writer at the time giving the book the deepest observation of Ali of anything ever read on him. Like I said though, he didn't really care for Ali or Joe Frazier as men, but he recognizes their greatness as fighters. Luckily his distaste for both men, although there is a quite a bit throughout the book, makes up a small portion of the entire work. My favorite sections cover the early parts of both Ali and Frazier's lives and careers, uncovers the mythological exaggeration of Ali's greatness during his era, and delves into the almost cult-like following he garnered during the same period.

If you're interested, the Amazon page for the book provides a decent summary of what it's all about.

http://www.amazon.com/Ghosts-Manila-Fateful-Between-Muhammad/dp/0060954809

Anthony342
07-12-2013, 12:44 PM
Does he say why he didn't like Ali and Frazier?

PUK_MY_DANG_34
07-13-2013, 07:13 PM
Does he say why he didn't like Ali and Frazier?

The simple version is that he thought Ali was a simple minded prick who just parroted anything the Prophet Elijah Muhammad said and Frazier was just an easily offended idiot.

Anthony342
07-14-2013, 04:07 PM
Really? What about when Ali left the Nation of Islam later? And I don't think it was simple stuff that offended Frazier. Being called "dumb" on many occasions and "an Uncle Tom" sounds pretty offensive to me.