View Full Version : Imagine a prime (99-00) Tua against a prime (69-73) Joe Frazier, who would win?


KO'er
05-30-2011, 03:44 AM
We all know it would be an out and out slugfest, and it would end very early, ala Frazier-Foreman and the 2 Liston-Cleveland Williams bouts. I think Tua would take the fight though.

Tua would have been around 230-235lbs in shape and that would be help him a bit, both have murderous left hooks but I can see Tua taking it in under 3 rounds. Both fighters would take big blows though. Frazier has the heart, but could his chin take Tua's power?

nomadman
05-30-2011, 06:39 AM
I posted my break down of this fight in another thread, Tua vs the Greats, and answered a few follow up posts clarifying my initial take.

Just to summarise, and taken purely as a head to head matchup, I slightly favour Tua to beat Joe, but by no means would I ever think this was an easy night for either man.

My reasoning basically boils down to style. Tua would have no problems finding Joe right in his face all night long, and a fighter that stands in front of a prime Tua is going to be taking a whole load of murderous punches. Can Frazier survive a Tua onslaught? Ike did it, but Ike was a physically larger man that Frazier and spent large swathes of their fight boxing on the outside (he also reputedly paid a terrible physical price afterwards). Frazier doesn't possess the physical or stylistic advantages Ike had (height, weight, long jab, ability to drop overhand rights down from on high), and whilst he poses other difficulties (constant head movement, unwavering pressure) against Tua he'd be fighting a physically more resilient, harder hitting man than himself who'd be more or less trying to do the same things he was doing. I see this fight being fought almost entirely in the pocket, and in a physical battle of attrition, I'd have to favour Tua.

There are quite a few reasons for me to pick Frazier as well, though.

First off, Tua tended to fight a lot in spurts. Even in his prime there were times when he'd just shut down and stand in front of guys doing nothing. Frazier on the other hand fought every minute of every round, and never failed to capitalise on chances. If he survives any early flurries by Tua his pressure might begin to get to Tua (in a psychological sense) allowing him to take the decision. Joe might also have some success going to the body, a la Quarry. Tua's chin was granite, and virtually undentable, but his body was another matter, as Byrd showed. If Frazier can repeatedly target Tua's body (assuming Tua is well conditioned and around the 225lb mark) then he'd have a good chance of seriously slowing him and possibly even stopping him in the later rounds.

Joe would be putting himself in the line of fire of Tua's left hook though, which wouldn't spell good news for him if it landed. There's also the question of whether he could force himself to go against his nature and try to smother Tua (which tended to limit a large degree of his offence). My guess is he'd stand in the firing line trying to take Tua out of there, and once again that spells danger for him.

Like I said, not an easy night for either man, and quite an intriguing style matchup that isn't anywhere near as cut and dry as it looks on paper.

RubenSonny
05-30-2011, 08:36 AM
Frazier beats Tuas ass on the inside.

Wild Blue Yonda
05-30-2011, 08:37 AM
Frazier makes Tua quit. Its not close, or pretty.

RubenSonny
05-30-2011, 08:38 AM
Also Frazier and Tua fought nothing alike.

IronDanHamza
05-30-2011, 09:29 AM
Different class of fighter.

DarkTerror88
05-30-2011, 09:39 AM
UD or Late TKO for FoTC Frazier. But I think Tua is too durable to get TkOd so I'm going with a decision. I like Tua, but if Frazier can make the fast and accurate Ali miss and counter to the body. He can do it to Tua.

nomadman
05-30-2011, 10:04 AM
Also Frazier and Tua fought nothing alike.

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RubenSonny
05-30-2011, 11:54 AM
Frazier - the greatest HW in-fighter, and a video of Tuas poor attempt at fighting on the inside. Right.

Don't try to patronize me you Lennox Lewis nuthugger.

The Surgeon
05-30-2011, 12:26 PM
Joe Frazier for me, he was just a far better fighter, i see him out working and out hustling Tua to a UD or possibly a late stoppage because while Tua has a great chin he is only human thus can and has been hit, hurt and dropped, and as we know Smoking Joe Frazier could really whack.

Joe was Super Tough, freakishly so. So Tua would have to catch him flush with one of his Left Hook Bombs to get to him but i do give David a shot at that and feel if he did then he could Knock Frazier out. But id make bet on Joe and id expect to be winning some cash!

nomadman
05-30-2011, 02:05 PM
Frazier - the greatest HW in-fighter, and a video of Tuas poor attempt at fighting on the inside. Right.

Don't try to patronize me you Lennox Lewis nuthugger.

Now was that really worth red k'ing me and sending me an abusive PM? Learn to control your temper.

Ziggy Stardust
05-30-2011, 02:12 PM
Just a different class of fighter. We know Tua doesn't like it to the body and Frazier had the best body attack I've ever seen at Heavyweight. People are asking how Frazier would take a Tua left hook to the chin when the real question is how Tua would take a Frazier left hook to the ribs......or several dozen as would be the case :boxing:

Poet

Wild Blue Yonda
05-30-2011, 03:11 PM
Just a different class of fighter. We know Tua doesn't like it to the body and Frazier was had the best body attack I've ever seen at Heavyweight. People are asking how Frazier would take a Tua left hook to the chin when the real question is how Tua would take a Frazier left hook to the ribs......or several dozen as would be the case :boxing:

Poet

He wouldnt take it, and thats why I see Tua quitting. People focus too heavily on Tuas whiskers --- Fraziers body assault would fold Tua like a deckchair. The myth that Frazier cannot beat a puncher, to the point some would not even favour him over a boxer as mediocre as Tua, is quite out of hand.

Ziggy Stardust
05-30-2011, 03:22 PM
He wouldnt take it, and thats why I see Tua quitting. People focus too heavily on Tuas whiskers --- Fraziers body assault would fold Tua like a deckchair. The myth that Frazier cannot beat a puncher, to the point some would not even favour him over a boxer as mediocre as Tua, is quite out of hand.

It all goes back to the Foreman fights.....and the truth is if you had substituted Tua for Frazier against Big George the same damn thing would have happened. No short-armed pressure fighter no matter how good is going to survive against Foreman. Foreman destroys that kind of fighter brutally.

Poet

La_Vibora
05-30-2011, 03:40 PM
Yeah I agree, sometimes I wish that fight with Foreman never happened so people could appreciate Joe alot more than they do. As for Tua, I will never understand this infatuation with him, outside of the Ibeabuchi fight and maybe the David Izon fight, I was never really that impressed with him (this includes the John Ruiz fight). Yet people on this very board still call for him to get a title shot even until this day or talk about him like he was some all time great fighter.

The Surgeon
05-30-2011, 03:53 PM
Yeah I agree, sometimes I wish that fight with Foreman never happened so people could appreciate Joe alot more than they do. As for Tua, I will never understand this infatuation with him, outside of the Ibeabuchi fight and maybe the David Izon fight, I was never really that impressed with him (this includes the John Ruiz fight). Yet people on this very board still call for him to get a title shot even until this day or talk about him like he was some all time great fighter.

Power mate Power.... people fall in love with that ***** too much.

Where did all that get him anyway even in this mediocre era??

Jim Jeffries
05-30-2011, 08:36 PM
I'd say Tua's prime was in 96-97 when he was in the mid 220's, after that he blew up (save the Rahman fight,) but even then he was inconsistent and too one dimensional to favor over a great like Frazier. Though I think it'd be a hell of an entertaining fight.

nomadman
05-31-2011, 04:42 PM
Just a different class of fighter. We know Tua doesn't like it to the body and Frazier had the best body attack I've ever seen at Heavyweight. People are asking how Frazier would take a Tua left hook to the chin when the real question is how Tua would take a Frazier left hook to the ribs......or several dozen as would be the case

True. Thing is, a body attack takes several rounds to have an effect, whereas a shot to the chops is instantaneous. If Tua caught Frazier to the head (as might happen if Frazier decided to focus on the body) then he could seriously hurt Frazier, and a prime Tua was vicious at finishing opponents off (in fact to my knowledge there isn't a single fighter who was knocked down by Tua who went on the finish the fight, let alone win it). If he allows Frazier to get shots off to the body, as might also happen, then I could likewise see him wilting in the mid rounds and possibly quitting on his stool. Tua wasn't a total goon though, and he'd probably try to prevent Frazier from seriously hurting him to the body. Whether he'd succeed or not is a different matter...

nomadman
05-31-2011, 04:52 PM
Power mate Power.... people fall in love with that ***** too much.

Where did all that get him anyway even in this mediocre era??

Tua's prime was in the mid to late nineties, not a mediocre period for heavyweights at all. True, his power didn't get him a title, but that was as much down to bad management, poor conditioning and matchmaking as it was to any inherent flaws Tua had (and he had truck loads).

But it's true that the reason I regard Tua so highly in discussions of this type is mostly down to his power. Why? Because it was freaking off the charts! Couple that with one of the best beards of recent times and it's hard not to give him more than a fighting chance against guys whom, on paper, he should get demolished by.

K-DOGG
05-31-2011, 05:00 PM
We all know it would be an out and out slugfest, and it would end very early, ala Frazier-Foreman and the 2 Liston-Cleveland Williams bouts. I think Tua would take the fight though.

Tua would have been around 230-235lbs in shape and that would be help him a bit, both have murderous left hooks but I can see Tua taking it in under 3 rounds. Both fighters would take big blows though. Frazier has the heart, but could his chin take Tua's power?

All respect to David Tua; but if he even dreamed of beating a prime Frazier, he should wake up and immediately apologize. Tua, in his prime was tough, relatively fast, and had an iron jaw; but Frazier wasn't called "Smokin' Joe" for nothing. Tua would probably knock Frazier around the ring for the first few rounds; but remember, Joe essentially never won a first round in his life. He was a very slow starter until he started to smoke in the middle to late rounds. Remember, he got bounced by Oscar Bonavena, who wa a big puncher and much bigger than him before he ever reached his prime and fought his way back into it. And Tua was maybe a little more diverse than Bonavena....but not much.

Here's how I see it: Tua takes the early....first 3 or 4 rounds on his strength; but Joe's tenacity and high work rate to the body start slowing David down through the mid rounds until Joe is dominating the fight from the late-mid-rounds on.

It could end in a late round TKO; but I don't think so. If Ibeabuchi didn't knock Tua out, I don't think Frazier would. Look for a close decision in Frazier's favour.

them_apples
05-31-2011, 05:10 PM
Just a different class of fighter. We know Tua doesn't like it to the body and Frazier had the best body attack I've ever seen at Heavyweight. People are asking how Frazier would take a Tua left hook to the chin when the real question is how Tua would take a Frazier left hook to the ribs......or several dozen as would be the case :boxing:

Poet

Yeah Tua would probably wear down and get out worked. But in his prime he was a sturdy mo fugga, He might get either roughed up bad or stopped late. I could see Tua dropping Frazier or wobbling him early though Frazier was a smaller HW who had a ton of heart and was always great shape so he could recover. IMO Tua could bang as good or better than Oscar Bonavena and had more skill. I also gotta say that Tua wouldnt be able to keep up on the inside, he doesnt work as much as Frazier.

Wild Blue Yonda
05-31-2011, 08:43 PM
Tua could knock Frazier down. Frazier would knock Tua out (bodywork).

Wild Blue Yonda
05-31-2011, 08:45 PM
True. Thing is, a body attack takes several rounds to have an effect, whereas a shot to the chops is instantaneous. If Tua caught Frazier to the head (as might happen if Frazier decided to focus on the body) then he could seriously hurt Frazier, and a prime Tua was vicious at finishing opponents off (in fact to my knowledge there isn't a single fighter who was knocked down by Tua who went on the finish the fight, let alone win it). If he allows Frazier to get shots off to the body, as might also happen, then I could likewise see him wilting in the mid rounds and possibly quitting on his stool. Tua wasn't a total goon though, and he'd probably try to prevent Frazier from seriously hurting him to the body. Whether he'd succeed or not is a different matter...

At the same time, it's fair to say Tua didn't finish anyone who could be classed within a hundred miles of Frazier.

La_Vibora
06-01-2011, 11:06 AM
Tua's prime was in the mid to late nineties, not a mediocre period for heavyweights at all. True, his power didn't get him a title, but that was as much down to bad management, poor conditioning and matchmaking as it was to any inherent flaws Tua had (and he had truck loads).

But it's true that the reason I regard Tua so highly in discussions of this type is mostly down to his power. Why? Because it was freaking off the charts! Couple that with one of the best beards of recent times and it's hard not to give him more than a fighting chance against guys whom, on paper, he should get demolished by.

You're right, it was slightly worse than mediocre, but I am not surprise that a Lennox Lewis fan would try to argue otherwise in an effort to legitimize his weak reign.

JAB5239
06-01-2011, 05:05 PM
You're right, it was slightly worse than mediocre, but I am not surprise that a Lennox Lewis fan would try to argue otherwise in an effort to legitimize his weak reign.

Can you name 5 better heavyweight era's and back up your opinion?

RubenSonny
06-01-2011, 06:09 PM
Can you name 5 better heavyweight era's and back up your opinion?

Thats besides the point, Tua wasn't fighting the best in the division at the time and lost to the best guy he fought in Ibeabuchi (who was good in hindsight).

JAB5239
06-01-2011, 06:59 PM
Thats besides the point, Tua wasn't fighting the best in the division at the time and lost to the best guy he fought in Ibeabuchi (who was good in hindsight).

How is it beside the point if someone is calling the era less than mediocre?

Yes Tua lost to Ibeabuchi, but barely. He also beat Ruiz, Wilson, Izon, Maskeav and Rahman. Both Rahman and Maskeav were rated in the top 10 around this time and Ruiz would go on to win a paper title. The rest were highly touted up and comers at the time and many were featured in a Ring or KO magazine cover with a title something like "Tomorrows champions".

lightsout_finit
06-01-2011, 07:05 PM
Frazier would break him down.

Wild Blue Yonda
06-01-2011, 08:15 PM
How is it beside the point if someone is calling the era less than mediocre?

Yes Tua lost to Ibeabuchi, but barely. He also beat Ruiz, Wilson, Izon, Maskeav and Rahman. Both Rahman and Maskeav were rated in the top 10 around this time and Ruiz would go on to win a paper title. The rest were highly touted up and comers at the time and many were featured in a Ring or KO magazine cover with a title something like "Tomorrows champions".

I do feel compelled to say, though, that that list, though it may've been top-10, is very uninspiring. Rahman especially was just an awful fighter, & even he made Tua his play-thing. Ruiz, Izon, Wilson & Maskaev are pretty forgettable (at least, I wish I could forget Ruiz).

RubenSonny
06-01-2011, 10:07 PM
How is it beside the point if someone is calling the era less than mediocre?

Correct, my bad.

Yes Tua lost to Ibeabuchi, but barely. He also beat Ruiz, Wilson, Izon, Maskeav and Rahman. Both Rahman and Maskeav were rated in the top 10 around this time and Ruiz would go on to win a paper title. The rest were highly touted up and comers at the time and many were featured in a Ring or KO magazine cover with a title something like "Tomorrows champions".

Nearly beating a guy who hadn't beaten anyone at that point and was the ne stepping up doesn't look good for Tua. Ruiz wasn't near his best and had proved next to nothing at that point and had quite away to go before he did anything (whatever that was). Maskeav wasn't in the top 10 when Tua fought him and he was an absolutely awful fighter, Rahman only being a bit better, Tuas competition round that time was mediocre at best.

JAB5239
06-02-2011, 12:02 AM
Correct, my bad.



Nearly beating a guy who hadn't beaten anyone at that point and was the ne stepping up doesn't look good for Tua. Ruiz wasn't near his best and had proved next to nothing at that point and had quite away to go before he did anything (whatever that was). Maskeav wasn't in the top 10 when Tua fought him and he was an absolutely awful fighter, Rahman only being a bit better, Tuas competition round that time was mediocre at best.

The point is my friend he separated himself from this group to get his shot. I don't think he was the best fighter, but he was a viable contender and both the public and HBO were interested in him.

Here's a question for you guys. Does anybody think Ruiz could have ever beat Tua? I don't.

JAB5239
06-02-2011, 12:12 AM
I do feel compelled to say, though, that that list, though it may've been top-10, is very uninspiring. Rahman especially was just an awful fighter, & even he made Tua his play-thing. Ruiz, Izon, Wilson & Maskaev are pretty forgettable (at least, I wish I could forget Ruiz).

That wasn't a top 10 list, just a list of young up and comers that Tua had beaten to get himself ranked. Now that I think more about it, its pretty impressive. Most guys take the route of trail horses and faded champions. Tua was taking on some of the best up and comers.

crold1
06-02-2011, 12:18 AM
That wasn't a top 10 list, just a list of young up and comers that Tua had beaten to get himself ranked. Now that I think more about it, its pretty impressive. Most guys take the route of trail horses and faded champions. Tua was taking on some of the best up and comers.

Tua, IMO, might never have been the same after the Ike war and was definitely a victim of the times. He had been kept well active and in shape but when he landed on his mando he had to sit and he got FAT. He'd made enough to do it. In another era, no dice. It was disheartening to see how he showed up for Lewis after the shape he'd been in earlier in his career. he probably still loses, but he didn't give himself fair shot.

Still baffling he only ever got one title shot of any kind versus all the opportunities so many of the dudes he blasted out got. Freaking Fres Oquendo got more belt shots.

JAB5239
06-02-2011, 12:40 AM
Tua, IMO, might never have been the same after the Ike war and was definitely a victim of the times. He had been kept well active and in shape but when he landed on his mando he had to sit and he got FAT. He'd made enough to do it. In another era, no dice. It was disheartening to see how he showed up for Lewis after the shape he'd been in earlier in his career. he probably still loses, but he didn't give himself fair shot.

Still baffling he only ever got one title shot of any kind versus all the opportunities so many of the dudes he blasted out got. Freaking Fres Oquendo got more belt shots.

I pretty much I agree with this. But we both know how it works for fighters like Oquendo and Ruiz. It isn't who you beat, its who you're with.

gattiwarrior
06-12-2011, 12:16 AM
unless tua lands a very big bomb then frazier totally outworks and beats tua up.

speed and workrate are the key for frazier in this fight although i cant see him stopping tua in his prime.

House of Stone
06-12-2011, 11:46 AM
I actually think prime tua is a bad match up for joe as I see any bigger stronger guy being a bad match up for him. (Liston,Foreman,Tyson) I could see it going one of two ways

1. Tua does a foreman to him
2. Frazier's greater skills and determination result in him wearing Tua down for a late tko or more likely unamous points win